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Cultural mixing is awesome, cool, and good. The use of raciast imagery and forced disconnection from cultural practices and enforcing others over them is bad and can both be labled cultural appropriation which isnt helpful. And dont loving tell me its wrong to eat food from other cultures as a blanket statement or I will culturally appropriate kicking your rear end
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Aug 4, 2018 01:58
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Flayer posted:Since I'm guessing most of us live in a culture that is 95%+ white European (language/architecture/dress/lifestyle/art/economics/music/film/tv/cooking/literature etc etc) Why are we guessing this?
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Aug 4, 2018 02:28
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The short answer is poo poo's complicated because of the history of powerful countries and people exploiting other countries, their peoples, and their cultures. Can you respectfully dress up or practice elements of another person's culture? Probably, but you probably aren't going to do that successfully if you don't bother looking it up or educating yourself about it. Maybe even ask multiple people because it's not like there's a sole authority on these things. Here's an example of how complicated stuff can be. The qipao enters Chinese history as a state-mandated garment called the changpao. Like the queue for Chinese males, it was something they had to wear under penalty of death (I have no idea how strictly this was enforced). The modern qipao is developed during the Republic of China era after the Qing were overthrown. It clearly borrows from western fashion. But under Communist China it wasn't seen as positively though more recently there's been a resurgence of popularity. And to make it even more complicated, there was the white girl wearing it to prom that became a controversy. But it gets even more complicated! Sure, there were Chinese-Americans who were offended but there were also people from China who loved it. Who's right? Well, some of the people who were offended didn't like seeing a white girl wearing it and the more typical negative associations of cultural appropriation that comes with this sort of thing. And some of the latter group loved it because it was a display of the strength of Chinese culture! A piece of clothing typically recognized as Chinese (despite its complex origins) is considered equal to western clothing. Who's right? Who has a more rightful claim to a piece of clothing derived from Manchu garments, that was later updated with western fashions? poo poo's complicated. Personally I don't think there can be a universal right/wrong with this but the offended party's feelings don't come from nowhere and they can be right to be offended. Also there's some controversy over the true origins of the changpao and whether or not the Manchus were influenced by older Chinese garments but I feel that's like saying Japanese architecture isn't really Japanese just because it's derived from the Tang-era Chinese styles. It also steps into the "it's complicated" area of cultural exchange and cultures making elements of another culture their own.
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Aug 4, 2018 02:42
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Barudak posted:Cultural mixing is awesome, cool, and good. The use of raciast imagery and forced disconnection from cultural practices and enforcing others over them is bad and can both be labled cultural appropriation which isnt helpful. White parents need to start a dialogue with their kids about how problematic interracial dating is.
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Aug 4, 2018 02:43
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Argas posted:And to make it even more complicated, there was the white girl wearing it to prom that became a controversy. But it gets even more complicated! Sure, there were Chinese-Americans who were offended but there were also people from China who loved it. Who's right? Well, some of the people who were offended didn't like seeing a white girl wearing it and the more typical negative associations of cultural appropriation that comes with this sort of thing. And some of the latter group loved it because it was a display of the strength of Chinese culture! A piece of clothing typically recognized as Chinese (despite its complex origins) is considered equal to western clothing. To be honest, from your description there isn't even an articulated reason why a white girl wearing the garment can be construed as a problem from the perspective of those who are calling that appropriation.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:03
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like option 2 is much more likely to actually happen than an actual end to effective discrimination, and has already happened to a great extent with mainstream media and entertainment largely self-censoring this sort of stuff. At that point I feel like a certain important segment of liberals are going to declare mission accomplished and go home A big problem with mainstream liberalism is that it's basically built entirely around the idea of 'declare mission accomplished and go home' on the tiniest symbolic victory they can get, and ignoring concrete, material discrimination as hard as they can. This is entirely on purpose.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:11
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I feel like the best standard to use is "do a non-trivial number of people from the culture in question have a problem with it?" If yes, then it's bad cultural appropriation. If they're okay with it, then there isn't a problem. So basically the same standard you use with stuff like gender pronouns - don't do things that pointlessly upset other people. If for some reason you don't have a way to ascertain the opinions of the group in question, it seems like "are people other than that group profiting off of it" is one good rule of thumb for it being bad. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 04:50
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like the best standard to use is "do a non-trivial number of people from the culture in question have a problem with it?" If yes, then it's bad cultural appropriation. If they're okay with it, then there isn't a problem. So basically the same standard you use with stuff like gender pronouns - don't do things that pointlessly upset other people.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:54
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Sneakster posted:With this reasoning, all religious schisms are "bad apropriation". You should not do a religious schism if you are concerned about people not being upset or hurt at you
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Aug 4, 2018 04:56
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OwlFancier posted:I can disagree with the validity of someone being upset though, if I couldn't then I would find it kind of hard to be on the left because a lot of people get upset at great length about many of its ideas. I think it depends upon whether that person's opinions are also held by a significant portion of people from their culture/ethnic group. I find it really unlikely that a significant percent of a particular cultural group are going to have some really unreasonable opinion about something like this. Sneakster posted:With this reasoning, all religious schisms are "bad apropriation". I mean, it's assumed that you're not talking about situations where the thing in question is also part of your culture (like it would obviously be stupid for a Japanese person to call a Chinese person using chopsticks appropriation, or vice versa). And obviously there's some aspect of common sense to how broad the things in question are; no one reasonable would really claim that "being bald" is cultural appropriation from some culture that attaches some significance to being bald. But this comes back to the "if a non-trivial percent of the group don't like it" thing. I seriously doubt that there are any situations where a non-trivial percent of an ethnic group are unhappy with something that is super unreasonable.
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Aug 4, 2018 05:11
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khwarezm posted:To be honest, from your description there isn't even an articulated reason why a white girl wearing the garment can be construed as a problem from the perspective of those who are calling that appropriation. TBH I was getting really rambly while writing that up and went and completely rewrote from scratch a few times. I forgot to find more about that perspective. Going to google, one of the prominent voices that were offended explained that he was offended because the qipao was a symbol of women's liberation and its history in letting Chinese women express themselves in an era of patriarchal oppression. He doesn't like that it's become subject to consumerism and used to cater to a white audience. I find it a fair argument.
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Aug 4, 2018 05:17
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OwlFancier posted:However, this leads to a good form of the idea, which is that we already have a word for people who claim ownership of things they cannot credibly claim responsibility for the creation of, and that's "Capitalists". And they do attempt to do that! This is the strongest part of the idea because you can make a lot of good points about the commodification of culture which are universally applicable while still illustrating the racist effects it can have. Think of music, which is a good example because it is definitely culture, it is definitely created by ordinary people and informed by the places and people and things they live with, and it is also definitely massively appropriated by capitalists to extract wealth from people. Music can be a powerful communicator and a lot of musicians really try to put messages in their music, it can have real resonance with people and social movements. I don't think the economic metaphor accurately captures negative forms of cultural appropriation: those forms occur when dominant cultures adopt elements of minority cultures in ways that negatively affect members of the latter, but whether this happens is entirely independent of the "mode of production." Furthermore, these negative forms aren't bad simply because the dominant culture can't "claim ownership" for the cultural elements they appropriate (rather, they are bad because of their negative effects on members of the minority culture). In other words, framing the moral issue in terms of appropriation (an economic metaphor) obscures the reasons that certain forms of cultural appropriation are wrong. I would probably argue that this kind of analysis runs into the same problems as the "bad intersectional" analysis does (we just need a dictionary to translate between socialist-talk and liberal-talk). I hope I didn't misconstrue what you are trying to say. quickly fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 08:53
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Ytlaya posted:But this comes back to the "if a non-trivial percent of the group don't like it" thing. I seriously doubt that there are any situations where a non-trivial percent of an ethnic group are unhappy with something that is super unreasonable. How do we determine if that's the case? What's a non-trivial percentage, and how do we know whether the people vocally upset about something represent their group on the topic? I'm not meaning this in the sense of needing an exact percentage, but as a general ballpark, is a non-trivial percentage closer to 1%, 10% or 50%. How do we distinguish "people are angry on Twitter" from "the minority group generally is angered by this". Like, with the girl and the Chinese dress, I'm genuinely not sure if a non-trivial number of Chinese-Americans were upset about that, since we're talking about 5 million people vs a few thousand people on twitter who may nor may not be representative of the group. I feel like "if a non-trivial percent of the group don't like it" is a good rule for things which are widespread and common examples of disrespectful appropriations which have been known for a long enough time, like Halloween headdresses, but it's much harder to apply to new and individual cases where it's not entirely clear how many people are upset.
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Aug 4, 2018 09:17
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Reveilled posted:I feel like "if a non-trivial percent of the group don't like it" is a good rule for things which are widespread and common examples of disrespectful appropriations which have been known for a long enough time, like Halloween headdresses, but it's much harder to apply to new and individual cases where it's not entirely clear how many people are upset. A more interesting example would be one in which
quickly fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 09:39
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quickly posted:A more interesting example would be one in which I would agree with that, definitely, but I think it would be hard to make a case that (3) is true if no non-trivial groups of the minority culture will back you up on it. You'd be effectively telling the minority group they're wrong not having an issue with the practice, and I'd feel pretty uncomfortable telling a minority group their opinion on their own culture is wrong.
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Aug 4, 2018 10:17
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Can someone who does not speak Chinese and has never lived in China make any meaningful claim to ownership of Chinese culture?
EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 12:01
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Argas posted:Going to google, one of the prominent voices that were offended explained that he was offended because the qipao was a symbol of women's liberation and its history in letting Chinese women express themselves in an era of patriarchal oppression. He doesn't like that it's become subject to consumerism and used to cater to a white audience. The concept of cultural appropriation is ironically the ultimate expression of having views born out of an isolated monoculture that fears the other as fundamentally alien and unknowable. Its a bit cynical, but I get the impression the real fear isn't somehow hurting the feelings of the collective race-soul of the Chinese for liking their fashion, but what you worry "they" might say under the assumption they think in the same terms of your own anxiety/guilt/self-castigation. Do you people think good and evil are literal forces in the world that can be materially effected by wearing a non-race-conforming article of clothing? China doesn't give a poo poo if you like their clothes, do you think other countries/cultures are worried if they're offending us if they enjoy stuff from America? What if a non-trivial amount of Americans are hurt by watching reruns of Seinfeld? These are what pass for pressing concerns to American liberals. Jesus, you guys know people have real problems right? You hurt a culture via destroying and eliminating it, not sharing and celebrating it. Reveilled posted:I'd feel pretty uncomfortable telling a minority group their opinion on their own culture is wrong. The idea that you can't insult people for having whacky, stupid, or terrible cultures is the ultimate form of chauvinism born out of seeing the world through the lens of an isolated monoculture superior to all others. Despite the mid-west being paranoid about encroaching Sharia-Law and the scurrilous threat of grad students with expired visas; if you wanna hear real anti-muslim rhetoric, talk to a Hindu. How do you know if a Desi is Hindu or Muslim? They'll tell you how much they loathe the other. Noo, that's wrong. You can't make light of their silly customs, you can't laugh at their crazy prayers, you can't make fun of sanctifying their new car with coconuts. You have to respect them, at a distance of course. Don't eat their food, don't listen to their music, don't laugh at their problematic jokes, don't hook up with their women. You have to be very careful not to appropriate anything. All those conflicting cultures interacting and appropriating... Its all very problematic, we'll have to remake them into middle class American liberals. Sneakster fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 13:34
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Man, threads about racism really have a knack at getting the most racist posters on this forum to show off their broken brains.
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Aug 4, 2018 13:48
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Man, threads about racism really have a knack at getting the most racist posters on this forum to show off their broken brains. Cultural appropriation isn't racism though.
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Aug 4, 2018 14:31
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EasternBronze posted:Can someone who does not speak Chinese and has never lived in China make any meaningful claim to ownership of Chinese culture? Not in good faith, no.
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Aug 4, 2018 15:34
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Argas posted:TBH I was getting really rambly while writing that up and went and completely rewrote from scratch a few times. I forgot to find more about that perspective. And I'm not terribly convinced by that either, to my knowledge the Qipao as it was popularised in early twentieth century China was basically always a garment that advertised the wearer was part of the moneyed, westernized classes in urban China. It's already been touched upon that Communist rule looked down upon it because it represented Bourgeois values of old China, the idea that now its some kind of insult to the original meaning of the garment that it's part of consumer capitalism and easily adopted by Westerners outside of China just seems laughable when you consider the history involved and it sounds like exactly the kind of dodgy fetishism of things that really rubs me the wrong way in Cultural Appropriation arguments. If something like this isn't acceptable cultural exchange it really begs the question as to what possibly could be.
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Aug 4, 2018 16:09
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JBP posted:Cultural appropriation isn't racism though. then again, structural racism exists
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Aug 4, 2018 16:13
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quickly posted:I don't think the economic metaphor accurately captures negative forms of cultural appropriation: those forms occur when dominant cultures adopt elements of minority cultures in ways that negatively affect members of the latter, but whether this happens is entirely independent of the "mode of production." Furthermore, these negative forms aren't bad simply because the dominant culture can't "claim ownership" for the cultural elements they appropriate (rather, they are bad because of their negative effects on members of the minority culture). In other words, framing the moral issue in terms of appropriation (an economic metaphor) obscures the reasons that certain forms of cultural appropriation are wrong. I would probably argue that this kind of analysis runs into the same problems as the "bad intersectional" analysis does (we just need a dictionary to translate between socialist-talk and liberal-talk). I hope I didn't misconstrue what you are trying to say. I think I am probably arguing that there isn't a moral issue other than the degree to which the practice may materially harm people, which it primarily does via commodification, not use of a thing by individuals, or even the transfer of a thing from one culture into another without the involvement of Capital, because it is the commodification of a thing which harms it because it then gets sold back to places where its original meaning might still remain, as a commodity, which is devoid of meaning. If it just transfers into a new place not as a commodity then it acquires its own meaning there which may inherit from the original or not, but is no less valid. Though I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring out what you're saying exactly. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 16:13
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Skar posted:Not in good faith, no. Glad we established that most so-called asian americans are just americans with richer parents.
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Aug 4, 2018 17:54
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Wearing a Qipao, especially the modern style which itself is culturally influenced by the west, is in no way cultural appropriation, no more than a chinese person wearing a western style wedding dress. The qipao arguement is indicitave of the ways cultural appropriation as a concept is used in a round about way of enforcing cultural purity. I am extremely into cultural exchange and dont use the phrase cultural appropriation because despite being a “neutral term” the word appropriation is inherintly loaded.
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Aug 4, 2018 17:55
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I think the respective "power/influence" of the countries/cultures in question is also an important factor. China is currently a very powerful and large country, so I don't think complaints about cultural appropriation towards it carry as much weight as those towards, say, Native Americans or black people (particularly since both those groups are subject to heavy direct oppression both historically and currently by the US).
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Aug 4, 2018 18:26
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The Indians, Braves, and Redskins should definitely change their loving names and logos. Preferably to the Crackers, Honkeys, and Rednecks Washington Rednecks actually has a very nice ring to it
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Aug 4, 2018 18:33
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Ytlaya posted:I think the respective "power/influence" of the countries/cultures in question is also an important factor. China is currently a very powerful and large country, so I don't think complaints about cultural appropriation towards it carry as much weight as those towards, say, Native Americans or black people (particularly since both those groups are subject to heavy direct oppression both historically and currently by the US). one could surmise that the issue in play is not the appropriation of cultural touchstones, but rather the ongoing oppression.
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Aug 4, 2018 19:01
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Dolphin posted:The Indians, Braves, and Redskins should definitely change their loving names and logos. Preferably to the Crackers, Honkeys, and Rednecks The onion article on this remains incredible.
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Aug 4, 2018 19:05
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Ytlaya posted:I think the respective "power/influence" of the countries/cultures in question is also an important factor. China is currently a very powerful and large country, so I don't think complaints about cultural appropriation towards it carry as much weight as those towards, say, Native Americans or black people (particularly since both those groups are subject to heavy direct oppression both historically and currently by the US). This is.... roughly my take on the situation. Of course one can take "wearing a qipao" and add on it more and more and end up in yellowface territory, so the line still exists in the less obvious contexts.
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Aug 4, 2018 20:08
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Ytlaya posted:I think the respective "power/influence" of the countries/cultures in question is also an important factor. China is currently a very powerful and large country, so I don't think complaints about cultural appropriation towards it carry as much weight as those towards, say, Native Americans or black people (particularly since both those groups are subject to heavy direct oppression both historically and currently by the US). This is more or less where I stand with this. I find that reason for taking offense at the matter to be fair but I don't really agree with it. Different priorities/perspectives I guess. The power disparity between China and the West is complicated because China's rise is very recent and you don't have to go back too far to see some really lovely treatment of Chinese immigrants and intolerance towards their culture. And the various generations of Chinese immigrants is also something to consider and why some of these things may matter more to different groups than others. They're divided by old regionalism as well as economic class, as well as different outlooks on the matter. I feel like the immigrant groups that witnessed/experienced or remember oppression are more likely to take offense, while the most wealthier groups that lean more into Chinese pride/nationalism/"white' supremacy are just happy to see elements of Chinese culture embraced by others. I think the historical context of the qipao matters but the current dynamic of where China and Chinese culture stands in relationship with the rest of the world makes this non-negative cultural appropriation.
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Aug 4, 2018 20:44
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Grape posted:This is.... roughly my take on the situation. I feel like when it gets into yellowface territory, then you have plain obvious racism, at that point the Cultural Appropriation aspect seems like a sideshow at best. Like if you start doing a ching chong voice it takes on a far more aggressively mocking element where your aim is to humiliate and mock people of that culture, which is kind of separate from just adopting elements from the culture without permission. This is kind of the reoccurring problem with the concept, it's already been touched on how being vigilant about Cultural Appropriation doesn't actually require somebody to engage with the structural issues that create societal power imbalances in the first place. It feels like extremely symptom orientated Liberalism where deep rooted problems, especially economic problems get glazed over to turn the issue into petty seeming identitarian concerns where it has the effect of discouraging people from moving outside their cultural circles, implying harder boundaries between cultures than really exist or probably should exist and giving people the questionable idea that they don't need to do much else other than be 'mindful'.
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Aug 4, 2018 21:11
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Ytlaya posted:I think the respective "power/influence" of the countries/cultures in question is also an important factor. China is currently a very powerful and large country, so I don't think complaints about cultural appropriation towards it carry as much weight as those towards, say, Native Americans or black people (particularly since both those groups are subject to heavy direct oppression both historically and currently by the US). Well, you can view Asian Americans as a separate group with much more genuine grievance than China itself. But that opens another can of worms when Asian countries and diaspora Asian Americans disagree on who has the right to use their culture. I’ve seen a lot of Asian-Americans angrily denounce the mother countries as benighted self-hating racists in ways that seem very similar/identical to the kinds of things racist white people say about Asian countries and the peope who live there icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 23:31
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Does anybody else find it really dumb to accuse someone of cultural appropriation due to eating or cooking some ethnic food? That's already a thing, right?
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Aug 5, 2018 08:37
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Does anybody else find it really dumb to accuse someone of cultural appropriation due to eating or cooking some ethnic food? That's already a thing, right? I've only ever seen this in the context of of commercialization. No one gives a poo poo what you do in your own home, but when some white person treats ethnic food as some sort of miracle they've "discovered" and then starts charging large amounts of money for it all of a sudden, that's different from incorporating ideas and ingredients into new dishes or respectfully engaging with other culinary traditions as things with a rich history and cultural context that must be learned. Look at Anthony Bourdain's body of work: he never caught poo poo for what he did because he treated the people and places he went with respect, acknowledging that those cultures and traditions had value on their own, and that he was there to experience them, not to take them -- and that was true whether he was in Detroit, Burma, France, or West Virginia.
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Aug 5, 2018 13:47
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Does anybody else find it really dumb to accuse someone of cultural appropriation due to eating or cooking some ethnic food? That's already a thing, right? Other than random kids on tumblr or something that racists dig up and share screenshots of forever to prove whites are oppressed I don't think anyone ever does that. Like at most sometimes you will legitimately see lovely cases where people are angry that a white chief got rich on selling a food that nonwhite chiefs have been not getting rich selling in the same area, or like a white guy opening a mexican restaurant and some actual mexican pointing out the bank didn't seem to want to give THEM a loan when they wanted to open a mexican restaurant.
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Aug 5, 2018 14:40
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like at most sometimes you will legitimately see lovely cases where people are angry that a white chief got rich on selling a food that nonwhite chiefs have been not getting rich selling in the same area, or like a white guy opening a mexican restaurant and some actual mexican pointing out the bank didn't seem to want to give THEM a loan when they wanted to open a mexican restaurant. It doesn't count if the bourgeois can't claim oppression by proxy despite that it has literally no impact on their lives, so they can entertain a fantasy of enduring oppression to fill the void of a frivolous life largely defined by the nihilism inherent to a lived experience of conspicuous consumerism as their only meaningful identity. The minute you start describing actual problems pertaining to the material interests of classes of people that have actual issues that can be conceivably addressed via structural reforms, you're engaging in class reductionism. Democrats voting to let banks return to racist redlining practices that actually damage the prospects of working class Mexicans? Not relevant. The wrong race cooking/serving/eating the wrong food? Its so problematic the only way to address it is a twitter campaign and a thesis written by someone in a department bestowed an endowment by the Heritage foundation advocating paying for more advocacy about the need for dialogue with people about what restaurant its appropriate for them to eat at while conspicuously avoiding banking reforms or regulations and their relevance to the ownership of that restaurant.
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Aug 5, 2018 16:08
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Sneakster posted:I don't think you understand cultural appropriation. I think you might be the guy that is getting your information based on white supremacy facebook posts of screen shots of a tumblr post a 14 year old made 6 years ago. There is virtually no one anywhere complaining about people genetically eating mexican food. It basically never happens. It's like the people that base their opinions on transgender people on that one screen shot of a guy that wrote their gender was "attack helicopter" in team fortress two. There is no significant person saying that simply eating food from another culture without some specific factor that makes a specific case clearly bad is cultural appropriation
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Aug 5, 2018 16:26
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think you might be the guy that is getting your information based on white supremacy facebook posts of screen shots of a tumblr post a 14 year old made 6 years ago. There is virtually no one anywhere complaining about people genetically eating mexican food. It basically never happens. It's like the people that base their opinions on transgender people on that one screen shot of a guy that wrote their gender was "attack helicopter" in team fortress two. There is no significant person saying that simply eating food from another culture without some specific factor that makes a specific case clearly bad is cultural appropriation In this thread/forum I've seen it defined as: non-race conforming hairstyles, non-race conforming clothing, non-race conforming music, non-race conforming dancing. Its so ambiguous any histrionic personality can find it in anything from macklemore to taco bell, proms, and weaboos.
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Aug 5, 2018 16:55
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Does anybody else find it really dumb to accuse someone of cultural appropriation due to eating or cooking some ethnic food? That's already a thing, right? Given that it has happened to me in person since I dont look visibly mixed heritage to most Americans, yes. That said its not mega common, what i find more common online and in person is weird anti-race mixing views because thats imperialism and imperialism is bad which really pisses me off because at this point my family is rolling like 3 generations deep on different blends. All of that said, there is a niche use for it which to me are for things that arent necessarily racist but are more socially uncouth; i.e. using cultural religious/social practices one is not part of in a commodotized and misunderstood way that one would not treat their own in such a manner due to respecting their significance.
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Aug 5, 2018 17:03
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