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Sneakster posted:Its like obscenity, there's no definition, but I know it when I see it. macklemore is a white dude that profits off of black music and got a bunch of grammys for being white in rap congratulations you accidentally stumbled on a good example of cultural appropriation as always you’ve comically missed the point that cultural appropriation is about power dynamics
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Aug 5, 2018 17:30
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stone cold posted:macklemore is a white dude that profits off of black music and got a bunch of grammys for being white in rap Do black people also get rap Grammys or no? Are Grammys well respected?
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Aug 5, 2018 17:32
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Also he is actually half decent at music. You can reasonably say that he is sold perhaps on the basis that he's white but the reason he's successful is because thrift shop is an earworm and funny and then he also did some half decent message based songs and that gives him a valuable brand, you'd either have to argue that he a: shouldn't have made decent music while being white (a bad argument) or b: that he should stop making music now that he is white and successful (a slightly better argument but not an enormously good one given that the problem with rap is not that occasionally a white guy performs it as much as it's massively commercialized (largely by white capitalists) which limits is efficacy as a communications medium.) OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Aug 5, 2018 |
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Aug 5, 2018 17:33
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Barudak posted:That said its not mega common, what i find more common online and in person is weird anti-race mixing views because thats imperialism and imperialism is bad which really pisses me off because at this point my family is rolling like 3 generations deep on different blends. Imperialism is bad. If some white guy has an asian girlfriend because they get along well and like eachother as people there is nothing wrong with that, if he tells you he dates her because he only dates asians because he thinks they are weak and subserviant and easier to push around and more childlike than white women that is super hosed up and he should be condemned for that as much as possible. There is a lot of actions you can do in a good way or a bad way, where it's not the thing you are doing that is bad, but the reasons you are doing it are. If you drink milk because that is a normal thing people do then go for it, if you drink milk because you heard whites have more lactase in adulthood than a lot of other ethnic groups and you use milk drinking to signal your supremacy as a white person then what what the gently caress, don't do that.
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Aug 5, 2018 17:39
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JBP posted:Do black people also get rap Grammys or no? Are Grammys well respected? yes however since its inception as a category the person who’s won the most rap grammys is.....eminem with 6, and if you look at the album of the year category, which has been around for 60 years, there have been roughly 10 black artists to win think that tells you all you need to know about the grammys and racism
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Aug 5, 2018 17:43
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I assume the Grammys are just terrible in general since they're institutionalised entertainment awards. E: by in general I mean sexist and racist as gently caress.
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Aug 5, 2018 17:43
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icantfindaname posted:Well, you can view Asian Americans as a separate group with much more genuine grievance than China itself. But that opens another can of worms when Asian countries and diaspora Asian Americans disagree on who has the right to use their culture. I’ve seen a lot of Asian-Americans angrily denounce the mother countries as benighted self-hating racists in ways that seem very similar/identical to the kinds of things racist white people say about Asian countries and the peope who live there Yeah, I was just thinking of this aspect (since asian americans are obviously still subject to discrimination in the US), and I think I would actually give the opinions of the asians currently living in the US (or whatever other foreign country) precedence on matters of appropriation done within that foreign culture (relative to those still living in the origin country). I think the "it's bad for a dominant cultural group, like white americans in the US, to profit off of cultural products of the group in question" point still applies as well, at least assuming people from that culture are upset about it and it's not some completely ridiculous demand. Broadly speaking, I think most cultural appropriation that actually matters at all (in a negative way) takes place commercially, whether in the form of products businesses sell or the things celebrities do, etc. I don't think it matters as much what random citizens do (i.e. some random person cooking food from another culture who isn't making money from it). To bring up something that I've seen called harmful cultural appropriation in a situation where I don't really think it makes sense to do so, white people having cornrows comes to mind. I think that in that situation the problem is "people viewing black people with that style negatively and white people with that style positively" that is the actual problem. It's the commercial entities that will portray white people with the style positively and vice versa for black people that are the problem there, rather than the act of wearing that style itself. If white people did not receive selectively positive treatment (or black people negative treatment), it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue (if an issue at all).
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Aug 5, 2018 17:46
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JBP posted:I assume the Grammys are just terrible in general since they're institutionalised entertainment awards. the recording academy doesn’t release the demographics of its voters but i’m gonna take a stab at them being overwhelming older and, more importantly, whiter which goes again to the larger point of power dynamics
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Aug 5, 2018 17:49
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stone cold posted:macklemore is a white dude that profits off of black music and got a bunch of grammys for being white in rap
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Aug 5, 2018 17:53
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That's a much better argument against grammys than macklemore.
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Aug 5, 2018 18:02
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Sneakster posted:So vacuous celebrity garbage and the evils of race mixing, got it. it’s funny how you’re super mad about “race mixing” when it’s a white dude profiting off of black music so are you a white dude with dreads or
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Aug 5, 2018 18:05
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:If you drink milk because that is a normal thing people do then go for it, if you drink milk because you heard whites have more lactase in adulthood than a lot of other ethnic groups and you use milk drinking to signal your supremacy as a white person then what what the gently caress, don't do that. Okay, but how are you going to stop/discourage the latter behavior?
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Aug 5, 2018 18:06
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I mean it's a white dude profiting of his own music that is in a genre mostly occupied by black dudes. A white dude profiting off black music describes a production company, not a white rapper. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Aug 5, 2018 |
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Aug 5, 2018 18:11
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WampaLord posted:Okay, but how are you going to stop/discourage the latter behavior? You can't really legislate against lovely people existing. There is no one weird trick magic bullet to make people stop being awful. People should speak up against harmful relationships they see and normalize good relationships, But there is never going to be like a concrete list of what men can date what asians or something to make sure none of them are doing it a gross way.
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Aug 5, 2018 18:15
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Imperialism is bad. Asian women are not actually weak, submissive stereotypes and do not need you to save them from their not-asian boyfriend or husband. If it's an abusive relationship it doesn't loving matter if their skin colors don't match and if you automatically think about exploitation when you see asian women dating a white or black dude then you have a problem, not them. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Aug 5, 2018 |
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Aug 5, 2018 18:27
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Is it ok to just think black women are hot and want to date black women because you're shallow and that's what you like? Or do you have to date a white woman once every now and then to keep it fair?
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Aug 5, 2018 18:33
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Warbadger posted:Asian women are not actually weak, submissive stereotypes and do not need you to save them from their not-asian boyfriend or husband. If it's an abusive relationship it doesn't loving matter if their skin colors don't match and if you automatically think about exploitation when you see asian women dating a white or black dude then you have a problem, not them. You can still feel bad for the asian women that have to navigate every first date trying to figure out if the guy likes them or would like a sweet childlike wifu. Any sort of law saying whites can't make tacos or rap or date an asian person would be racist and bad, but you can still point out that sometimes people do those things in bad ways as well as in good ways. There is a real famous photo of donald trump eating a taco bowl, at some point in the last year you might be able to figure out he might have made that photo with disingious intent. But it's not like you could or should outlaw taco bowls being eaten.
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Aug 5, 2018 18:39
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:You can still feel bad for the asian women that have to navigate every first date trying to figure out if the guy likes them or would like a sweet childlike wifu. No, you don't need to feel bad for them. Every woman and every man for that matter needs to worry about new people they meet being horrible in a million different ways. That is a reality in human relationships. Judging interracial couples through the lens of prejudiced stereotypes is hosed up, even if you're ostensibly doing it to "help" them.
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Aug 5, 2018 18:56
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Warbadger posted:No, you don't need to feel bad for them. Every woman and every man for that matter needs to worry about new people they meet being horrible in a million different ways. That is a reality in human relationships. Judging interracial couples through the lens of prejudiced stereotypes is hosed up, even if you're ostensibly doing it to "help" them. It's perfectly okay to view thomas jefferson banging his slaves as bad without thinking that means that white people can't date black people. A person can do a thing in a bad way and have that be bad that someone else does differently and have it be good.
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Aug 5, 2018 19:01
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stone cold posted:it’s funny how you’re super mad about “race mixing” when it’s a white dude profiting off of black music So what are your opinions on Chinese rappers?
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Aug 5, 2018 19:02
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's perfectly okay to view thomas jefferson banging his slaves as bad without thinking that means that white people can't date black people. A person can do a thing in a bad way and have that be bad that someone else does differently and have it be good. Thomas Jefferson banging his literal slaves has nothing to do with black women dating white men in TYOOL 2018. Black women don't need you to wring your hands in concern over the incorrect skin color of who they choose to hold hands with.
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Aug 5, 2018 19:20
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Warbadger posted:Thomas Jefferson banging his literal slaves has nothing to do with black women dating white men in TYOOL 2018. Black women don't need you to wring your hands in concern over the incorrect skin color of who they choose to hold hands with. Yes truly, pointing out some white people do things for racist reasons are the true racists. You cracked the code.
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Aug 5, 2018 20:36
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yes truly, pointing out some white people do things for racist reasons are the true racists. You cracked the code. Glad we agree and thus show that cultural appropriation is nonsense in the context of dating.
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Aug 5, 2018 20:40
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yes truly, pointing out some white people do things for racist reasons are the true racists. You cracked the code. People of all kinds do bigoted things and you should not respond by being a bigot. HTH. You are viewing interracial relationships with suspicion because apparently extra care must be taken to save minority women from their own life choices (because this one time a few centuries ago somebody of their partner's race did a bad thing). Warbadger fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Aug 5, 2018 |
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Aug 5, 2018 20:52
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OwlFancier posted:A white dude profiting off black music describes a production company, not a white rapper.
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Aug 5, 2018 20:58
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Warbadger posted:People of all kinds do bigoted things and you should not respond by being a bigot. HTH. Are you trying to frame open fetishization of various races as being like, anti racist? There is no reason to assume it on random people, but some people are absolutely bare in what they are doing.
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Aug 5, 2018 21:10
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Are you trying to frame open fetishization of various races as being like, anti racist? There is no reason to assume it on random people, but some people are absolutely bare in what they are doing. Well, congratulations, it's fine have something against openly racist people in STDH.txt situations where they monologue how bigoted they are toward their partner to random strangers. Hopefully you feel the same way about Asian American guys who seek out recent immigrants from the old country for the same idiotic "they know how to treat a man" reasons - because the issue of stereotypes you are talking about isn't limited to interracial relationships (or even to targeting women depending on the culture). It also doesn't seem to be the kind of thing the dude you replied to was talking about, or related to "cultural appropriation" in any way.
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Aug 5, 2018 22:17
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Are you trying to frame open fetishization of various races as being like, anti racist? There is no reason to assume it on random people, but some people are absolutely bare in what they are doing. Are you also this much concerned about white-only relationships because some of them turn out to be abusive or done for fetishistic reasons? ...or is your pearl clutching starts at the moment when couples break the white society's dating norms by dating outside their race?
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Aug 5, 2018 22:22
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Barudak posted:So what are your opinions on Chinese rappers?  e: to expand, while stuff like 瓜老外 by 謝帝 is hilarious and also good, the thing is given the rather fraught relationship china has with black people and black culture, it’s a yikes like there was a straight up blackface sketch on the cctv new year’s gala just this year that cctv refused to even apologize for y i k e s stone cold fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 5, 2018 |
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Aug 5, 2018 22:23
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stone cold posted:
How does any of that have any bearing on some Chinese dudes deciding to make rap music? Do you want them to personally answer for the transgressions the Chinaman inflicted on black people on behalf of uh... 1.5 billion people? Seriously what the gently caress? What is your actual ethical or political recommendation?
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Aug 5, 2018 22:38
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fspades posted:How does any of that have any bearing on some Chinese dudes deciding to make rap music? Do you want them to personally answer for the transgressions the Chinaman inflicted on black people on behalf of uh... 1.5 billion people? Seriously what the gently caress? What is your actual ethical or political recommendation? it’s called context cultural appropriation is theft of culture contingent on unequal power differentials sorry you don’t understand context
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Aug 5, 2018 22:50
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stone cold posted:it’s called context That's really nice of you to show off your knowledge in Racism 101, but you haven't answered my question. What is to be done?
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Aug 5, 2018 22:54
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fspades posted:That's really nice of you to show off your knowledge in Racism 101, but you haven't answered my question. What is to be done? wow so you flunked racism 101 then huh because the answer is “don’t treat blackness like a prop to be stolen and commodified so you can seem “”””cool””””” hth
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Aug 5, 2018 23:00
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I would expect most of the people who do rap probably enjoy the form and the things it talks about and it inspires them to make their own. Certainly people who take it seriously enough to go to the length of making their own songs and performing it to others.
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Aug 5, 2018 23:04
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I feel that there is a big difference between the creation of the music and profiting from the music (in that only the latter is actually potentially problematic in a case like Chinese rap). But even in the case of the latter, things get really fuzzy when you're talking about a musical form as incredibly broad as rap. It sorta comes back to what other people have mentioned where the real problem is "discrimination against (in this case) black people that results in them being less able to profit from the same music," rather than other groups creating and profiting from it. Music in general is a bit different from some of the other examples people have mentioned (like white people making dreamcatchers or whatever, or even choosing to wear certain clothes/hair-styles), in that it's being done as a form of artistic creation/expression, and I'm not that comfortable with condemning the creation of the music itself (unless it's a very specific type of music with some specific cultural meaning, which isn't the case with something that is, as previously mentioned, as broad as rap/hip-hop).
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Aug 5, 2018 23:06
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stone cold posted:wow so you flunked racism 101 then huh because the answer is “don’t treat blackness like a prop to be stolen and commodified so you can seem “”””cool””””” You haven't shown how these Chinese rappers did the thing you are accusing them off (for all I know they might be. I'm not familiar with Chinese rap). All you have is some vague allusion on the racism of Chinese people, so therefore these rappers are tainted in their motives by way of racial association. I think they would be entirely within their rights to tell you to gently caress off and continue to do their thing anyway.
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Aug 5, 2018 23:15
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Youre aware I chose rap in china because a) rap in china predates Chinese economic programs in Africa* and b) the chinese government is cracking down rap and hiphop due to lyrical content and other things it deems wrong so youre picking a cultural exchange that is actively being discouraged by the “power imbalance” group *If you count ancient travel emmissaries as economic programs in Africa Ill laugh
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Aug 5, 2018 23:20
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Barudak posted:Youre aware I chose rap in china because a) rap in china predates Chinese economic programs in Africa* and b) the chinese government is cracking down rap and hiphop due to lyrical content and other things it deems wrong so youre picking a cultural exchange that is actively being discouraged by the “power imbalance” group you’re aware that a) anti-black sentiments in china predate the 走出去 sentiment towards africa and b) wow it almost reminds me of the intense anti rap sentiment and crackdowns that occurred in america, it’s almost like these are similar situations 🤔 *you’re not wrong about if one were counting the zheng he voyages as economic programs in Africa as stupid, but it is stupid to call something that occurred at the same time as the renaissance “ancient,” hth
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Aug 5, 2018 23:46
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzc3_b_KnHc
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Aug 5, 2018 23:52
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Brian Imanuel posted:I was basically trying to make people less sensitive to the word [“nigga”] and making the word… taking the power out of the word. But then I realized like, I’m totally not in a position to do that. I was like, ‘I hosed up.’ https://mobile.twitter.com/richbrian/status/947889914225422336
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Aug 5, 2018 23:56
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