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Raged posted:Same here. I just did not bother after the 3rd crash. At the same exact spot? I’ll update the OP when I get home tonight with some of people’s impressions and experiences so far.
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Aug 15, 2018 10:12
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For my two bits, I bought it on PS4 and am having a blast so far. I guess the comparisons with X-Com are inevitable, given the full-on copying of basically all the same gameplay bits (strategic geoscape map with multiple simultaneous demands for attention, base-building/research, turn-based tactical levels, recruiting and training up agents, etc. etc.), but the way that they all play off each other ends up having a way different feel. Especially early on, the game really feels like a spying simulator -- you don't have a lot of cool technology and your agents kind of suck, so most missions really come down to sneaking around, catching people by surprise, and keeping things as quiet as you can. If you get discovered and full-on firefights break out, the best you can hope for is getting away in one piece. But that kind of feels thematic, right? Like, if you're having your cover blown and getting into a giant shootout, you're not being a very good spy? Where in X-Com the main draw is the tactical missions and cool efficient alien-killing, in Phantom Doctrine it seems like the geoscape layer gets the main focus -- moving agents around the globe, making sure you have people in places of interest in time to do thorough recon/setup before a mission to make things easier, keeping tabs on enemy agents and changing safehouses when they're getting too close and all the while combing through dossiers and making spiderweb corkboard conspiracy diagrams is super fun. It seems like eventually you get better weapons and silencers and spy tools and stuff that make it easier to have a fighting chance in combat, too. All that said, I do think the complaints people have about the combat itself are right-on. In the tactical missions, the balance between infiltration mode and combat mode is super-skewed toward infiltration right now, because as soon as combat starts, enemies go from having a tiny Metal Gear-sized vision cone of the area directly in front of their faces to being immediately aware of exactly where all of your agents are, and guns have enough range (along with the weird line of sight calculations/rules and the awareness system) that it's really tough to be positioned in a truly safe area. It seems like all of the weird auxiliary perks and equipment and stuff that agents can get is really useful, like the smoke grenades and the blinding laser and whatever, but the straight-up shooting the other guys part feels pretty janky. I guess for me, though, everything else makes up for that part. Overall, I rate this game: Alpha Protocol
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Aug 15, 2018 10:24
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Pirate Radar posted:At the same exact spot? I’ll update the OP when I get home tonight with some of people’s impressions and experiences so far. Yep
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Aug 15, 2018 10:29
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ketchup vs catsup posted:Is there a physical console release? I’m not into supporting digital only console games. I don’t know about PS4, which is out apparently, but the Xbox version got delayed by 10 days so it’s not out at all yet. Amazon and Game don’t seem to have it at all though. Anime_Otaku fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 11:14
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Having played a chunk more of this, I think the single biggest series of complaints (LOS and enemy shooting range) are sort of impacted by the fact that it is 'not-xcom'. Both of the new Xcom games have ingrained in me a certain combat distance where I am and am not safe, usually a little bit more than a full screen. This game, however, allows you to shoot with rifles at 2-3 times that distance, which ends up throwing people for a loop because 'how the gently caress are they shooting me from there'. Couple that with the fact that LOS gets blocked a lot less and you run into some situations like where I did tonight, where you are sure you're safe, only for the enemy to chip damage you from halfway across the map. Once I played a few more combats, and especially once I got access to some rifles of my own, the distance issues didn't seem so touchy. I've had to resign myself to the fact that you will take damage in combat in this game, but that it is okay. It is worth mentioning that if you heal up in mission, it appears to keep you out of the infirmary, unlike x-com. If I had one significant complaint, it would be the corkboard stuff. Don't get me wrong, the connection minigame is fun, but I feel like it could have benefitted from some sort of failure state. Making the wrong connections, or highlighting the wrong words etc. Without any downside it feels a bit too busyworky for my tastes. Overall though, I'm getting my money's worth for sure. Edit: One final tip, don't overlook disguises. Disguises and/or silencers turn a lot of difficult missions into hilarious romps of you murdering your way across the map. It is wonderful.
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Aug 15, 2018 11:31
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so uh it seems if you use a medkit before the end of the mission, you return to base with full hp. I just got mauled in...Raged posted:When the game forces you into a mission with no stealth and open combat it suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccckkkkkkkkks ... this mission. And my main dude who was down to ~25% is fine after a medkit. It was seat of the pants but between flanking with smgs, aggressively running up and tossing nades, smoke to block LOS, and lmgs to put on a bit of damage at distance, it was doable. The big thing I learned is it's not worth exposing one of your dudes to three/four of them firing back if you can help it. Even if you're in full cover you will get hammered. Fading back and blocking LOS can let some AI advance into the open. Also really slammed home why you don't want all lmgs all the time. Being able to sprint and still fire was a godsend. fake edit: yeah disguises are op as gently caress. An enemy agent can spot you, they have about 8 tiles of vision, but as soon as you get one guy with the actor perk you can zip around freely. real edit: unless the main character is healed after those story missions? Eediot Jedi fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 11:54
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I seem to be very lucky at finding bugs/oversights that turn missions in unwinnable states. 1st CIA mission, if you spook the lady using the computer at the reactor room she will just stay there panicking and I couldn't kill or knock her out to use the computer. IN 1st KGB mission - don't jump out of the window on the side opposite to the entrance, its a 1 tile wide strip of land blocked by impassible bushes on both sides, your agent can't leave.
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Aug 15, 2018 12:03
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Knobb Manwich posted:so uh it seems if you use a medkit before the end of the mission, you return to base with full hp. I just got mauled in... The enemy agent thing gets even worse. There is a trait called actor which makes your disguises perfect, even against agents. And no, I had one of my regular guys get destroyed, then jabbed him in the leg with a medkit at the evac and he ended the mission with the exact amount he had at mission end. Might not make a lot of sense, but unlike xcom it gives me a reason to bring medkits other than utter catastrophic failures.
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Aug 15, 2018 12:18
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I caught some time in between work and class to try the second KGB story mission (which I’m pretty sure is what you’re talking about) for the third time and yeah, I want to echo what you said about LMGs. I think a good load out for this mission would be everybody with AKs and sidearms, whatever grenades you have, healthpacks, and armor if you have it. Even then I’m pretty sure my winning strategy is going to end up being “go out the back and run like hell around the side to the evac space”
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Aug 15, 2018 12:28
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So is it fair to say that either A) The game is heavily skewed towards infiltration and stealth because your dudes are spies not soldiers, and in order to create this atmosphere getting into any kind of gunfight is heavily penalised to the extent that if you gently caress up and get exposed you're extremely unlikely to get away intact? or B) The gunplay is just kind of a buggy mess and needs work?
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Aug 15, 2018 12:41
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Pierson posted:B) The gunplay is just kind of a buggy mess and needs work? That's my take on it. There's some good ideas in there but they didn't get the iteration and work they needed to shine. Infiltration gameplay isn't terribly interesting, either.
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Aug 15, 2018 12:52
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I think there’s also a learning curve to the gunplay, and it might not get rolling in a properly fun way until later. Like, I haven’t even gotten to offmap snipers yet.
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Aug 15, 2018 13:12
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The UI is also missing some critical info regarding gunplay. Eg. How much does half/full cover prevent damage, what is the effective range and damage drop off of guns, how much awareness does the shots drain when hit? Maps with large open spaces are complete deathtraps when enemies can spray you with MGs from anywhere. Game also drops reinforcements on your evac point constantly. I'd be fine with it if game would let you take more than 2-3 agents on missions.
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Aug 15, 2018 13:17
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Yeah, I feel like the gunplay might secretly be really good once people get the chance to get used to it and figure out exactly how it works. It definitely feels like the game could do a better job explaining/showing more info (sight zones/firing lanes, weapons enemies are carrying?) though.
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Aug 15, 2018 13:25
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Caros posted:Having played a chunk more of this, I think the single biggest series of complaints (LOS and enemy shooting range) are sort of impacted by the fact that it is 'not-xcom'. Both of the new Xcom games have ingrained in me a certain combat distance where I am and am not safe, usually a little bit more than a full screen. This game, however, allows you to shoot with rifles at 2-3 times that distance, which ends up throwing people for a loop because 'how the gently caress are they shooting me from there'. Yeah, that's something that keeps throwing me as well. At this point it's kind of ingrained to me from XCOM that being at full cover and ideally higher elevation means the soldier is pretty much safe against all but the most dangerous enemies. So you can maneuver very aggressively as long as you've got cover at your destination, and if that allows a couple of enemies to shoot at that soldier that's usually no biggie as long as the trade-off is worth it. Here on the other hand every single attack against you will cost you something. Even long-range, bad-angle shots against agents in cover (that you would just laugh off in XCOM) will at least cost you some Awareness and probably a not-insignificant chunk of HP. The name of the game is basically to not ever get shot at if you can at all avoid it. Which I suppose is actually kinda realistic and fitting with the theme, but at times the map and mission design do not really allow for it.
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Aug 15, 2018 13:49
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I hauled this loving enemy agent all the way across the map and into a van and then drove that van to Beirut only to get back to the base and have my team kill him there. Massively inefficient.
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Aug 15, 2018 14:10
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JRTFM - https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/559100/manuals/Phantom_Doctrine_Official_Manual.pdf
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Aug 15, 2018 14:53
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^quote:COMBAT - You can see enemies in your line of sight, regardless of distance; this is also true for your enemies. Don’t be shocked if an enemy shoots you through three windows from across the map—just remember, you can do the same. Even putting the bugs aside, this still seems like a pretty questionable choice. When everyone can see and hit everyone else 90% of the time it feels like cover and positioning become meaningless. The stealth is definitely more fun but still pretty barebones. It's completely binary, you're either okay or everyone is compromised and being ruthlessly hunted down. If anyone sees you where you shouldn't be all of your team instantly have their position known regardless of how spread out they are - really fun when a civilian outside magically spots a body in the second floor room above them. And for whatever reason you can't take cover or hide when you're trespassing in restricted areas. So while it would make sense to duck behind that desk to hide you just have to stand there like a dope and hope no-one walks in the door. Apparently their answer for this was to make everyone outside of combat legally blind. But I'll stop making GBS threads on the game now. I really wanted to like it, and maybe it'll be worth returning to once they patch it a few times. On paper at least it's got a lot of potential.
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Aug 15, 2018 15:27
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"You can see enemies in your line of sight regardless of the distance. Same applies to your enemies so dont be suprised if they shoot you across the map" Uh ok. Interesting? I might have to look at this a bit more before purchasing WaltherFeng fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 15:41
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I feel like the problem is that at least in the early game there are always more of them than me, and they have less self-preservation instinct, so it's worth it for them to take that long shot that does 5 damage but chips away at my Awareness, whereas I would almost never be taking those shots myself.
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Aug 15, 2018 15:45
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Pirate Radar posted:I feel like the problem is that at least in the early game there are always more of them than me, and they have less self-preservation instinct, so it's worth it for them to take that long shot that does 5 damage but chips away at my Awareness, whereas I would almost never be taking those shots myself. Yeah, there's a reason having aliens take poor shots actually jacks up the difficulty in XCOM 1/2. If there's twenty of them and four of you, it's a winning strategy to just take whatever shot instead of trying to mess around.
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Aug 15, 2018 15:47
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The thing is, I can't tell if these choices are poorly implemented, or if the game just hasn't opened up enough yet. Like yeah, if I get into open combat with two guys vs fifteen in a game where every shot will at least chip, and sight lines are huge I should and do expect to get hosed. So there seems to be an element of "stealth is your most important asset.", which is very true in the early game. And going back and watching all the videos, the devs response to combat scenarios is "don't get into them." and "if you do, your prep work is what will turn the tide, you have spies not soldiers.". The question basically becomes how much does this game change once I start gaining access to full sniper coverage, gunships, moles/double agents, better weapons, better disguises, etc etc. On the other side of that coin though, I think the scarier proposition isn't that combat can be made easier once I get access to better tools, but that stealth eventually just breaks the game in boring ways. See the actor trait/RPS article. To counter all the negativity I'm really enjoying the game 4-5 hours in, and am planning to play more today. This isn't XCOM at all, it's it's own beast, with a far greater focus on stealth/prep. I like it, but I can see a lot of people disliking it right off the bat for being so different. I'm also just not sure it's very well balanced. I don't think that matters though? The plot seems cool, Cold War shenanigans are cool, the tools I see coming up seem cool, the prep stuff is cool. I'll eventually figure out a way to make combat scenarios feel better, and $25 was a good price point for this. If I had paid $40 I might feel different, but for $25 this plays well enough. Rookersh fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 16:05
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I just hit the point where it clicked and I did a mission entirely in stealth, did the secondary objective, got all the classified info, and collected all the loot. Feels good. I added some of people's thoughts and resources to the OP, as well as a note about the CIA campaign bug a few people ran into. EDIT: For anyone else doing the KGB campaign: does it randomize Patriot's identity? I got Yuri Andropov 
Pirate Radar fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 16:18
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Saint Freak posted:I hauled this loving enemy agent all the way across the map and into a van and then drove that van to Beirut only to get back to the base and have my team kill him there. It's ok your boffins back at base whack them with sticks until a few pieces of juicy intel fall out. I'm rather sad that the first (as far as I know) Beholder double agent got outed by intel pinatas like 30 seconds onto the job. It would've blown my little mind if he'd gone off. Also, if you get the option to tail someone back to their hideout, don't loving do it. You eat a load of danger and get three of your agents compromised, which costs $$$ to undo. Just make some new friends and bring them home with you.
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Aug 15, 2018 16:25
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One thing I'm observing is that it doesn't seem like there's a tech to increase the number of agents you can take on a mission, it just kind of happens for some missions? Has anyone noticed a way to tell which missions will let you take the full 6 and why the early missions limit you to 2-3?
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Aug 15, 2018 18:09
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Аn English speaking Russian role playing for KGB - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAWU6ROnf8g
Здравствуйте! This is my gaming video channel with thick Russian accent - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7bdvXtjexnJ7doOCSYvmZg Aydjile fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 18:54
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I find that the biggest problem is reinforcements that never stop and most importantly spawn randomly. So there is no chance to have actual tactics. Good mission can be forfeit when dudes suddenly spawn right behind your back and there is nothing you can do about it.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:55
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Encountered the same game breaking bug one mission in to both the CIA and KGB camapaigns - after getting some intel from the world map, the game attempts to jump me to the corkboard but leaves me stuck in a weird limbo where I can click on things to no effect and only go back and forward from a suddenly blank world map. And the game apparently doesn't autosave. Welp, you tried, Phantom Doctrine, but it's time to test out GOG's refund policy.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:09
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Game doesn't autosave? Mine saves every turn.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:22
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Gato posted:Encountered the same game breaking bug one mission in to both the CIA and KGB camapaigns - after getting some intel from the world map, the game attempts to jump me to the corkboard but leaves me stuck in a weird limbo where I can click on things to no effect and only go back and forward from a suddenly blank world map. And the game apparently doesn't autosave. Welp, you tried, Phantom Doctrine, but it's time to test out GOG's refund policy. Had that bug, but mine autosaved so I just reloaded fine. 2nd KGB story mission was brutal for me, had to leave an agent bleeding out a few squares from evac because if I stopped to pick him up I died a horrible death, and that was with using a few smoke grenades to generate a few turns where they couldn't shoot me.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:08
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Yeah I had to Alt-F4 out, only to find the game had no saves to reload from. Maybe playing on Ironman was the issue?
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Aug 15, 2018 22:11
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I really preferred Hard Wests combat, which was far more readable and predictable and gave more logical results. Your character had an accuracy, you modified it for cover, and reduced what was left from that games Awareness equivalent. Once awareness was gone, you dealt your weapons damage, again modified for cover. (At which point they got some awareness back) I think it was functionally pretty similar, but it was way, way clearer what was going on and what was being applied to what. In particular it didn't really feel like you were soaking up 400 grazing bullets and instead most shots missed while chipping at your awareness, with the ones that hit probably killing you. It just looked more sensible. In particular, if you ever got your hit chance up to 100% in hard west you'd always deal full damage, so a good flank gave you a big hit. sometimes you'll get up behind someone unaware here and see them dodge what looks like an easy shot, and it kinda feels bad. ShineDog fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Aug 16, 2018 |
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Aug 16, 2018 00:20
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Gato posted:Yeah I had to Alt-F4 out, only to find the game had no saves to reload from. Maybe playing on Ironman was the issue? Entirely possible. I very much like this game but I took a big nope at the idea of an ironman game on release after xcom 2.
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Aug 16, 2018 00:51
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Mine autosaves pretty often on vanilla too. I tried out Ironman but stopped after I found out it’s the “delete your save if you gently caress up” kind and not just the “no savescumming” kind. I’ve been finding it useful, too, to be able to reload, just because of times when I’m like “wait, what happens if I do that? Does that trip the alarm?”
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Aug 16, 2018 01:16
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One other take away from my play today is to learn to use and abuse the breach mechanic. With silenced weapons you can typically clear out an entire room worth of regular guards in a single breach. Even better, it can allow you to deal with troublesome agents who have hp that is too high for you to kill in a single shot/takedown.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:19
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There’s been once or twice I’ve had the chance and just forgotten to use it; I’ve got to get better at remembering all my resources.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:33
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I've been making good use of smoke grenades as well they really bloc LOS pretty well and ive used them to escape a few times.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:58
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Developers posted:Phantom Doctrine Patch 1.0.1
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Aug 16, 2018 02:13
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That's a good sign that they're being attentive, at least. I think for me this game is firmly in the "I want to like it, but I don't quite yet" camp, so I'm gonna wait for a major patch or two, or maybe for modders to cheat in some QoL stuff before I really start sinking my teeth into it.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:25
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I've been playing it for 4 hours and I'm enjoying it a lot, even if it's clear that the game needs more work and better feedback/documentation on what your actions do or how some things function. If they commit to improving it I can see it eventually getting there, but who knows. They also said they will be implementing mod support after the patches, so there's that. What's the benefit of discovering the identity of enemy agents? I can't see anything to do with the information.
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Aug 16, 2018 04:00
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