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eonwe posted:what do you want in your dream MMO? I want something like an MMO version of Etrian Odyssey. Really, really good small-group dungeon crawls with a big focus on teamwork between party members and unique versions of the usual party roles. And ideally, dungeons that are more than just a line of trash encounters with some bosses breaking it up. While that sounds perhaps more "realistic" than a truly sandbox MMO it probably isn't, because a lot of the things that make dungeon crawls fun in a single-player game would make them tedious in a game that asks you to repeat them. While I'm dreaming, it'd also be awesome to have a game like that not rely on RNG for loot or endlessly repeating the same content for loot or tokens. Obviously an MMO needs to be able to reuse content or players will burn through it far too quickly, so instead, I'd love to see various special challenges for each dungeon that each reward different kinds of loot. That way, repeated runs aren't just doing the same thing over again, but doing it in a different way, with different constraints, remixed versions, that kind of thing.
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Aug 20, 2018 20:31
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Frog Act posted:i want everquest online adventures 2 I had a buddy in high school who was way into EQOA I still don't fully understand. Then again I was neck-deep in Nexus Kingdom of the Winds back then so I don't have any room to talk
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Aug 21, 2018 13:56
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I said come in! posted:This exists! Wizardry Online, but it's only in Japan now. Daybreak Games use to run the American version but they shut it down a few years ago. drat it, I missed my chance  I do remember when that was previewed and I thought it looked really promising, but unfortunately I lost track of it. BexGu posted:I think Dragons Dogma Online would be a very good MMO is it every comes out in the west. A action RPG where I can freely changed classes with a single character and run around with bros taking down giant monsters by climbing them/fly around them/drop tornadoes on them? Yes please! God yes, Dragon's Dogma Online's combat looks extremely fun. It has so many classes that look like exactly my poo poo, like the Spirit Lancer (magic-using spear fighter) and High Scepter (the name isn't illustrative but it's a super agile and mobile spellsword which is my favorite kind of character). And fighting huge monsters is always the best. I'm curious how grindy it is and/or what kind of content they have outside of giant open-world monsters. I've noticed that western MMOs (or western-style ones like FFXIV) tend to have the kind of content and progression systems I like more, but eastern MMOs are the ones with actually good combat. I really want someone to finally merge those two worlds, drat it
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Aug 22, 2018 14:43
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Zaphod42 posted:My dream MMO is dark souls online. Something that punishes you on the level of everquest and makes you actually run around to get places, learn shortcuts, etc. But also with visceral weighty combat instead of EQ/WoW style auto-attacks with spells on top. Elder Scrolls Online has some of this, though not all. Its character building is pretty wide-open and combat is kept pretty grounded and doesn't have autoattacking (in fact, learning how to time animation canceling your light/heavy attacks into special abilities is really important for maximizing your damage). You have to pick a class when you start, but your class is really only the nucleus of your character. It provides three skill lines, but there are also weapon-specific skill lines, guild skill lines (Fighter's Guild, Mage's Guild, Dark Brotherhood, etc.), armor skill lines, etc., and anyone can use those, so any class can be a physical DPS, magic DPS, healer, or tank. One downside is that the balance isn't super great at the very high end of PvE, so you find a lot of samey builds recommended for players who do super hardcore raiding and stuff. Turns out when the most efficient DPS skills are skills anyone can use, everyone uses them. Casual PvE and PvP allows for a ton of potential builds, though, especially PvP. It has Everquest-style public dungeons, lots of world bosses, and some nice big zones that reward running (or riding) around and exploring. They hide lore books all over the place, which you need to find to rank up in the Mage's Guild, and "skyshards" that are sort of like heart pieces but for bonus skill points--every three skyshards you find gives you a bonus skill point. It is pretty story-heavy, but IMO that's a strength--it has some pretty good story quests that often send you into public dungeons and have fun characters and stuff. The combat isn't visceral and weighty, though, and it does have fast travel, though it's of the "you gotta go there first to unlock it" style.
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Aug 22, 2018 18:55
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When did you play it, out of curiosity? I just started pretty recently but by all accounts it launched as a complete and utter disaster. What I've played has been surprisingly fun and not a buggy mess. I will say that I strongly question whether ESO's "optional" monthly subscription is truly optional. Like it is, you can definitely play without it, but the QOL benefits the subscription provides are massive (things like funneling every crafting material you pick up into a special bottomless craft bag, saving you tons and tons of inventory and bank space, for example). It also gives you $15 worth of microtransaction currency every month but really that's not worth nearly as much as the crafting bag and increased bank space if you're going to play for any real length of time. Groovelord Neato posted:i never understood why they made an elder scrolls mmo that doesn't play at all like one of the games. I dunno, it kinda does. It's not like Skyrim's combat isn't floaty and inconsequential too 
Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Aug 22, 2018 |
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Aug 22, 2018 20:29
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Yeah that sounds pretty lovely, cripes I've had fun so far but I can also see things getting repetitive, if only because weapon variety is severely lacking and (like I mentioned before) the poorly-balanced wide-open skill system means that character builds often tend to be pretty homogeneous. I'm not an expert or anything so I try not to go too far into the problems I see in the game's design (from my amateur POV, of course), though I do think that the insistence on not having any skill cooldowns, combined with the vast majority of skills being usable by any class, is leading to a likely impossible-to-balance system, at least on the PvE side of things. When you don't have cooldowns or a stricter resource system to regulate how often you can use skills, you have to come up with other reasons for players not to just spam a single skill, and ESO's approach seems to be that tons of skills have built-in buff and DoT components. So that means that ground-targeted persistent DoT skills are king and no matter if you're a physical or magical DPS, your main thing are ground-targeted DoT zones. It's worse for physical (stamina) DPS, because there are two that are by far the best ones, to the point that they're in literally every serious physical DPS build, whether melee or ranged, no matter what class. PvP's in a better position because there's a lot more to it than doing damage as efficiently and quickly as possible, but on the PvE side it's all just sort of muddy and I can see that really sucking the life out of group PvE for me. I dunno, every MMO that I like at all has at least one thing that ends up being a fatal flaw and prevents me from really getting invested in it. Obviously they all have a lot of flaws, but there's always one big thing that I eventually run into (or remember, if it's a game I'm returning to) that just takes the wind out of my sails every time. In ESO I bet it's the build variety problems and the fact that every DPS build has to be a DoT build unless you're a casual solo player. In GW2 it's the anemic and monotonous in-game reward systems while they funnel all the cool aesthetics into the cash shop and apologist players keep hiding behind "you can get those by playing, just grind gold and turn it into gems."
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Aug 22, 2018 21:05
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The worst thing about Guild Wars 2, IMO, can be summarized by how ArenaNet treats mount skins. GW2 has an extremely good mount system. They feel really good to ride around on and not just like your character is moving faster, and not the sorta clunky mount-riding ESO has. Mounts in GW2 have actual weight behind their animations and move and turn differently depending on the mount type. And each type of mount has a unique movement ability that gets you past specific kinds of obstacles in the open world. It's a legitimately excellent implementation of mounts and I have nothing but praise for it. Now, the mount aesthetics, that's a problem. ArenaNet has no problem making lots of mount skins, and good ones, at that. The problem is that they are categorically a gem store (microtransaction) thing. Period. They're not going to add mount skins that you can earn in-game. And that really summarizes the whole thing for me. It's not just mount skins, of course, but I think those are a particularly illustrative example because of how much art is being produced and how none of it is being used to give players new in-game goals to pursue. And to clarify for anyone unfamiliar with GW2, it's a game without endgame gear progression. The point is that aesthetic stuff is what you're supposed to be trying to get once you reach endgame. That there's so much being produced with so little that you can actually earn in-game is a pretty glaring problem. GW2 has turned into a game about grinding for gold and map-specific currencies, because most of the game's in-game rewards are earned that way, and not through doing content actually related to those things. They're never going to do things like add quests or collections (sorta like scavenger hunt quests) for cool mount skins because those have to go on the gem store. And long-time dedicated GW2 players kind of don't want it to be any other way, either. There's a pervasive attitude that it's important that you can play the game "your way," meaning that you should be able to get most rewards by doing whichever activities you want, and not have to do specific activities to get specific things. A lot of dedicated players would vastly prefer to buy mount skins with gold (or convert gold to gems, or just buy gems) than have to do a quest chain to get mount skins, because they're not being "forced" to do a quest chain they might not want to do, and they can get gold through a wide variety of activities. There's just nothing satisfying about that, to me, and it makes the whole thing kinda depressing to play at endgame. When the only thing that's going to actually get me cool new aesthetics for my character is grinding for currency, I just don't end up really caring about any particular goals. The reason that sucks is that I think there's a lot about GW2 that is very, very good, and if they put more effort into making more compelling quests and instances that provided unique rewards (purely aesthetic, because that's how the game works), it'd probably be the best MMO on the market. That one fatal flaw just kills the whole thing, though. Groovelord Neato posted:elder scrolls games are first person. You can play ESO in first person and you can play single-player Elder Scrolls games in third-person  I mean I don't in either case but it's not like it's a strict and definitive divisionI mean the biggest difference is that you can't mod the gameplay in ESO, which naturally means that if base Elder Scrolls gameplay isn't fun for you (and, let's be honest, it's not particularly great) there's not any way to spice it up. ESO gets by on fun quests and good dungeons but its combat is unmodded Skyrim but with like half of the options. Harrow fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Aug 22, 2018 |
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Aug 22, 2018 22:23
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Frog Act posted:GW2 had a lot of good things about it but lmao at the dungeon system, holy moly, it was like they looked at WoW dungeons and thought "how could we do this, but for toddlers that have just been hit on the head with a mallet". the hardest bosses had like, one move that was an aoe they telegraphed, the whole thing would consist of maybe three or four pulls which were always just totally inconsequential, they were this incredible feat of non-creation. Just these bland forgettable fifteen minute areas where a group of people mindlessly button mashed until everything was dead because they balanced them in a way that ensured players would never have to heal, root, move, debuff, or think even once BexGu posted:They fixed that by completely ditching the dungeon system all together and moving to fractals: 15 min mini scenarios that all play vastly different with varying puzzles/set pieces. (You have to do 3 in a row before heading back to the hub area) It works extremely well since there is a ramping difficult system that is completely up to the player on how hard/easy a fractal run will be. Yeah, GW2 has significantly improved its group PvE design since launch. Hell, there are even raids now, with healers and tanks and everything (though if you want to tank you better roll Mesmer, they still haven't quite figured out how to make them less mandatory). I just think maybe they should revisit the idea of making new non-fractal dungeons at some point. I like fractals, but I want some small group PvE stuff that isn't "wandering through pocket dimensions in the Mists"-themed. Hell, they could even copy the model Bungie uses for Destiny's strikes, where they reuse areas of the open world and/or maps they made for solo story missions and use them for different scenarios, like how they reused dungeon maps for explorable mode dungeons on launch.
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Aug 23, 2018 01:23
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kzin602 posted:Every time I wish an MMO would break out of the Healer - Tank - DPS mold; I remember playing GW2 and think, okay, perhaps the mold is there for a reason. I think it's entirely possible to break out of that mold, but you're going to have to go farther away from standard MMO combat to do it, and that was the problem GW2 ran into. It's different from WoW's combat, sure, but not enough to allow for consistently interesting combat encounters without the role trinity. Destiny is actually an interesting example of this, because for all its many, many faults, it has pretty well-designed group PvE instances, both small-group and raid, and it doesn't have tanks or healers at all. They do it in raids by essentially designing fights as time-sensitive puzzle encounters where players might need to take on a role that is specific to that fight (like using a special environmental weapon, for example), so those fights can require teamwork without necessarily falling back on the tank/healer/DPS division. But, of course, it's also a first-person shooter and not a pseudo-action MMO like GW2. That said, GW2 could (and does) take some cues from that kind of design. None of the raid encounters technically require tanks or healers--playing close to perfectly lets you avoid enough damage that your personal healing abilities can take care of the rest--and in some cases can't be tanked in the first place. Those encounters just have other mechanics going on to keep them interesting and require teamwork. And most raid groups run at least one healer anyway because unless you're doing speedruns of an encounter you memorized months ago, you're not playing well enough to avoid enough damage that you don't need outside healing. Fractals (the 5-player instances) are sometimes a little more clusterfucky, but they've done better there than they did with their launch dungeons, at least. They tend to rely on rotating modifiers that change how you play instead. Doing the same fractal instance with the No Pain, No Gain modifier (enemies gain damage reduction and a stacking damage and critical boost when hit) is a different experience than doing that same instance with the Social Awkwardness modifier (you take damage when you hit an enemy if you're standing too close to another player).
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Aug 23, 2018 17:13
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Bloodly posted:Everyone thinks they want ultra realistic hardcore 'like real life' things where your survival isn't protected and you can rise to dizzy heights or fall just as far. Where things take forever to do and so this 'means something'. They think they want it hard for the sake of challenge. People definitely romanticize "sandbox" MMOs but the vast majority of them are just absolute slogs, and any suggestions I've seen for hypothetical "good" sandbox MMOs sound like complete slogs, too. I get the desire. I really do. Sometimes I think it would be cool to have an MMO where players trying to achieve specific goals can end up creating gameplay for other players--not in the sense of a City of Heroes map generator thing, but in the sense that a player could almost be a quest-giver. Like say a game has a really in-depth and cool crafting system and some players are just all-in on crafting. They need some sort of rare ingredient that maybe they have to gather themselves, but it's only found in a really dangerous area that's across the sea. So they hire another player who has a ship, and some other players who are combat-focused, and they all go on an adventure together to get this thing. And then I step back and realize, wait, that would actually loving suck to play. What are the fighter/adventurer guys doing while the captain pilots the ship? What is the merchant/crafter doing, like, at all other than following dudes around? Once they hit land, what does the captain do? Just hang out on the ship? If the captain is also specced to be good at fighting, why doesn't everyone have a ship, then, if you don't have to choose? It's one of those things that I can make sound like "yeah man, players are the content, this owns" but then if you think about how it would actually work in a real, functioning game, it just sounds boring as poo poo.
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Aug 24, 2018 16:32
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Wakko posted:That said, it's completely possible to make a game with significant adversity that doesn't feel like an endless slog. If the core gameplay loop is fun, even achieving modest success in a play session can feel relaxing. The problem is MMOs are largely mired in design tropes harkening back to 1990s MUDs. Gameplay centered around pressing a button every few seconds to trigger an ability is boring as hell. I've posted it before in this thread, but it's really annoying to me how western and eastern-developed MMOs each do something way better than the other, and so far very few developers have even really tried to bridge that gap. Western MMOs tend to have the kind of content and content pacing that makes it easier for a player to jump in and quickly start doing something fun and engaging. They vary in how successful they are at this, of course, but by and large I think it's true. They have stronger worlds that are denser with activities, and a wider variety of activities, both for solo and group play. But the problem is that their combat is at best lackluster. The best of the western-developed (or western-style, since I think FFXIV falls into this bucket) MMOs can have okay combat, like I think Guild Wars 2's combat is okay, but never combat that is actually engaging on its own merits. The best you can hope for is something that feels reasonably okay to do in the progress of doing something more interesting. Eastern MMOs, on the other hand, have gone much, much farther in trying to make fun and engaging combat systems. I mean, poo poo, just look at Black Desert and Dragon's Dogma Online. Their combat is fast, flashy, and weighty (and both of them have mage classes that try really hard to let you be a motherfucking wizard, which I appreciate). But for the most part, these eastern MMOs with great combat have awful structures for everything outside of that combat. They tend to be grindy and they love to actively waste the player's time by making them fail at doing things like upgrading gear. (These statements don't necessarily apply to Dragon's Dogma Online--I haven't looked into it much beyond how the classes play, so I have no idea what the actual game is like.) Somebody's gotta fuse the two. I don't really care about the distinction between "theme park" and "sandbox" MMOs. I just want an MMO that structures and paces its content well and has fun and engaging combat. We know that both things are possible but I have no idea why they've thus far been impossible to do together.
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Aug 24, 2018 21:17
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Zaphod42 posted:I played the original closed beta for ESO and I hated it It's changed a lot since then--I hated the closed beta, too. While it definitely isn't like playing Skyrim, it also isn't really like EQ or WoW with an Elder Scrolls skin, either. Its quests are quite a bit longer and more involved, and it does a lot more with non-instanced dungeons and stuff than WoW ever does. That said I can't really recommend the combat all that highly. Like it's decent enough but I'd rank it lower than Guild Wars 2, which still isn't incredible or anything.
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Aug 25, 2018 02:03
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Percelus posted:just play bdo if you want a sandbox that has things to do other than ganking op sorry that's as good as it gets What sorts of things are there to do in BDO, out of curiosity? I want to try it mostly because the Wizard class looks crazy fun
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Aug 27, 2018 00:45
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DancingShade posted:It will seem like your dream MMO because it has everything. Trade goods runs, guild wars over tax nodes, ganking, open world bosses, grinding, boats, underwater diving, hunting deer with a rifle in FPS mode, fishing, horse taming, etc etc. Yeah, that's sort of what I thought. It seems like every MMO with really good combat is either really grindy and lacking features beyond that combat, or really grindy and an astoundingly nasty RNG-fest. Obviously I don't mind doing activities repeatedly for more rewards or I wouldn't be interested in MMOs in the first place, but there's a point at which it just becomes unsatisfying to even engage with the systems anymore. I wonder if Dragon's Dogma Online ends up suffering from the same problems. Also wait, what does the costume have to do with endgame effectiveness?
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Aug 27, 2018 14:27
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These are good and important criteria An MMO with poor fashion is not an MMO worth playing at all 
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Aug 27, 2018 15:52
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I want more MMOs to do something that GW2 and ESO do: never raising the level cap. Both games manage to keep a sense of progression and encourage players to play new content without raising the level cap by shifting character progression in another direction. In ESO, a new DLC or chapter coming out is a little bit like new cards coming out in a TCG. Your level isn't going to go up and your base stats aren't going to increase, but there's new gear out there with new properties, and (in some cases) a new skill line to unlock. These new gear sets and skills might not necessarily be stronger than the ones that exist, but they're different, and in some builds they might be better, or they might enable new ways of playing certain types of characters. And they come with new cosmetics, too. So each time a new content drop comes out, you want to do the new content to get the new gear, even though it's not a higher item level. The challenge here is that it's inevitable that eventually they're going to run out of ideas for interesting set bonuses, but for now, I think it's working out well. In GW2, they sort of do the "new, not necessarily stronger, equipment set" thing by releasing new stat combinations on gear, though Path of Fire (expansion 2) didn't shake things up nearly as much as Heart of Thorns (expansion 1) did. The bigger progression thing comes from the mastery system. Masteries are basically like extra skill lines that you unlock by gaining EXP and by exploring to find Mastery Points. Unlocking new masteries gives you new movement or environmental abilities that let you navigate the new zones, like gliding and bouncing on mushrooms in Heart of Thorns, or mounts and their special abilities in Path of Fire. Unlocking all of my mounts and their movement abilities in Path of Fire was a lot more satisfying than gaining another 10 levels in WoW with no actual changes to my abilities. I will say that there's something to be said for the way an increasing level cap hits the reset button with each expansion. While it does mean that people stop running old content for any reason other than getting armor skins in something like WoW, it also means that you don't have to run that old content to stay relevant, and there's no chance that, say, a set from three expansions ago is still the best possible set for your spec and things stagnate. To be fair, it's not like everyone starts on a level playing field with each new expansion--after all, if you have a mountain of gold, you can give yourself a pretty big leg up by buying crafted/bind-on-equip gear once you're max level--but at least everyone hits the starting line at the same time. A static level cap is something that I think works for some games and not others, but at least for a while it seemed to be considered something that was mandatory in an MMO and not a specific design decision. MoaM posted:Guild Wars 2 would be perfect if it had more...explore-type poo poo to do instead of more dungeon-type poo poo to do...I guess? This depends on what you mean by "explore" and what you mean by "dungeon," I think. GW2's whole thing now is adding new open world zones with each major content patch, each with its own new mastery (the newest one came with an entirely new mount type to unlock) and stuff to find for map completion, not to mention events. They don't add new instanced dungeon stuff with nearly as much frequency--probably two new fractals and one new raid wing a year, at this pace? Harrow fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 13:27
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It is unjust that Capcom won't bring Dragon's Dogma Online to the west because holy poo poo look at this class just loving look at it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7rRNIOHYI&t=193s oh and this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBxqtAVRUmE&t=42s Harrow fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Aug 29, 2018 |
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Aug 29, 2018 22:27
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Inflammatory posted:wtf that's the coolest thing i've ever seen Yeah it's cool as gently caress. It's this super-mobile tank class that's all about launching yourself all over the place and using your alchemy gauntlet to punch things and also do these crystal-burst attacks. The High Scepter class looks insanely fun, too. Contrary to its name, it's a spellsword class--the class wields a one-handed sword and mixes really acrobatic swordfighting with casted spells. I think you build up some kind of resource through your sword strikes, then dump it into big, powerful nukes (almost like an inverse of FFXIV's Red Mage). Both the Alchemist and the High Scepter are mobile, but in different ways--the Alchemist seems really good at getting into the air, while the High Scepter just flips all over the place on the ground. Both classes are extremely my kind of thing. "Highly mobile melee fighter who sometimes does flashy magic" is my favorite kind of class to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fufvS5B_dQ Hello Sailor posted:Is it like the original in that class level and character level are separate things and whatever class you are when you increase your character level will permanently affect your stat development? Third World Reggin posted:I do not think so. I would have to ask the reddit discord about that, but this looks a lot more like a mmo without that stupid class stat gain poo poo. From what I can tell it's basically like FFXIV, where you only have a class level. So on the one hand, that means that you don't have to do the whole "level in the right classes for the right permanent stat gains" thing, but it also means that you have to level each new class from level 1. Harrow fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Sep 2, 2018 |
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Sep 2, 2018 16:26
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Does Dragon's Dogma Online have PvP? I'm trying to think about the amount of like freedom of movement and how big and flashy spells are and I suspect that the reason they can do that is because they don't have to care about PvP balance with those skills. I'll gladly give up PvP in an MMO if it means that players can do crazier poo poo (the kind of thing that is fun to do to an enemy but very frustrating to have done to you, or things that would never work on a human player like big Sorcerer spells with super long cast times).
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Sep 3, 2018 17:49
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Hello Sailor posted:You both answered your own question and told us that you don't really care what the answer is anyway, but yes, you're correct. I didn't mean that I don't care what the answer is, just that I suspect the reason Dragon's Dogma Online can have the kind of combat it does is specifically because it lacks PvP, and if that's the case, I'm glad not to have it. If it had PvP, that PvP would either be garbage, or it would necessitate a very different combat design that wouldn't allow for all of the kinds of movement its classes have (or classes that rely on super-long cast time nukes).
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Sep 3, 2018 19:12
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Third World Reggin posted:No pvp that I know of. MMO is a lose term here. As much as vindictus is a mmo, so is dragons dogma online. That actually explains more than the lack of PvP, really. When you don't have to worry about potentially having dozens of players fighting in the same area, you can go a lot crazier with what each player can do. Imagine what having like 16 Sorcerers all casting meteor showers at the same time while 12 Alchemists bounce around and a Seeker whirls through the screen while on fire would do to your frame rate. And really, I love those kinds of games, so that's fine by me. Same for Phantasy Star Online, Guild Wars 1, Vindictus, hell even Destiny. The people you intentionally group with are the ones who really matter, anyway. When I play Guild Wars 2 and join in a big event with a bunch of other players, like 95% of them might as well be NPCs for as much as we actually interact, y'know? So if going for a totally instanced game is the way you let people play as a Sorcerer that's true to Dragon's Dogma, raining meteors down from the sky after casting for like a minute straight, then go for that instanced game. Maybe this weekend I'll try to set up a VPN and give it a go.
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Sep 4, 2018 14:14
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Since there's no MMORPG general chat thread and the Wildstar thread is archived, this thread will have to suffice. RIP noted bad game Wildstar https://kotaku.com/wildstar-developer-carbine-studios-shuts-down-1828862729
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Sep 6, 2018 20:01
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Pants Donkey posted:Once the Kickstarter MMOs inevitablly fail, that's pretty much it for the genre, yes? Basically just waiting for WoW, FFXIV, Lineage 1(?), and a small handful of F2P failures to die off. Depending on how you define "success," there's a surprising number of sustainable MMOs kicking around. WoW is clearly the big boy, but FFXIV, Guild Wars 2, and even kinda Elder Scrolls Online aren't doing so bad. FFXI is still kicking. EverQuest still gets content updates somehow. That's not even counting the handful of Korean games that have at least some global appeal, like Black Desert appears to. I think we're seeing much more of a shift to more instanced games like Destiny and Anthem, which sort of follow in Phantasy Star Online/GW1's footsteps more than anything, but I wouldn't expect actual MMOs to completely die off as a genre, either. Zaphod42 posted:In wow, people who aren't in your guild or friend's list may as well not exist. Even worse, they exist only as obstacles, stealing items or mobs you need for your quest. In WoW's defense, they've eased off on this a lot recently, with shared kill credit and per-player instanced quest objects meaning that other players are no longer a hindrance to solo questing. As for EverQuest, really, I just don't think that kind of MMO is going to take off again. Most of the players who loved EverQuest back then just don't have the time or patience for the pace that a game like EverQuest requires. People generally want to log in and get right to actively doing something these days, for better or for worse. I don't think that's necessarily an inherently bad thing, either. What I hope we see from MMOs in the future is to further break away from the WoW/EverQuest structure and just start doing weirder and less structured poo poo. I have no idea what I'm even really looking for here, either, but I just want to see more experimentation one day instead of every MMO either being WoW with another coat of paint, or some sort of wrongheaded attempt to recapture Ultima Online. Harrow fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Sep 6, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 22:44
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Zaphod42 posted:TWhich is why I think games like Destiny and Division and GW2 getting off subscriptions is part of the necessary future of MMOs. There was a whole fleet of MMOs like D&D Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Star Wars The Old Republic, etc. etc. that came out as subscription games, bombed pretty hard, and then turned around and went free2play and actually saw modest success and profit. I generally support getting away from the subscription model, but it's worth noting that both GW2 and Destiny get their money one way or another. Destiny's expansions are what ESO would call "DLC" and what WoW would call "a major content patch." Like, imagine a version of WoW: Legion where, instead of paying a subscription, you would have to individually purchase the content that was released in patches 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 as DLC. That's how the Elder Scrolls Online does things. Explicitly, in fact. They used to do content patches like WoW back when the game had a required subscription, but part of dropping the required subscription was instead packaging those content patches as DLC that players would purchase (or get as part of an optional subscription). One way or another, you're getting charged for content updates. GW2, meanwhile, doesn't charge for its content patches*, but instead has a somewhat prominent cash shop, and also lets players buy microtransaction currency to sell to other players for in-game gold, so there's plenty of real money going into ArenaNet's pockets at any given time even without a subscription. So that's how they're paying for continued content development in place of a subscription. It's kind of a double-edged sword, because the continued creation of art assets just for the gem store kind of robs the rest of the game of unique rewards (like mount skins, which are only ever in the gem store), but at least there's no subscription. (It's worth noting that ESO also has a microtransaction shop, but generally is much more "generous" with putting cosmetics in the actual game and not just into the shop, probably because they're also making money either from that optional subscription or by selling DLC.) Destiny's kind of the worst of all of them, in my opinion. They sell their content patch DLC for far more than it's worth, continually push players towards their cash shop, but worst of all: they release sequels instead of true expansions. Why is that worse? Because it makes you leave behind everything you did in the previous game, including paid microtransaction stuff, so that Bungie can sell it back to you. At a certain point, I'd really rather pay a subscription. That said, I know that isn't the majority opinion. You're right that the games that succeed in the future will very likely need to do so by abandoning the subscription model and will look a lot more like Destiny than WoW. I'm not convinced that's a wholly good thing, but I guess more of a lateral move. * - Technically, GW2's content patches--which they call Living World episodes--are paid content if you don't log in while they're the current episode. So like if you log in right now, you get Living World Season 4, Episode 3 for free, but if you log in after Episode 4 comes out, you get Episode 4 for free but would have to pay for Episode 3 if you didn't already unlock it. But that's kind of a weird technicality that isn't super relevant to this discussion.
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Sep 7, 2018 00:11
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Glenn Quebec posted:The next fantasy MMO that will do well needs a simple but fun melee mechanic like the original dark souls with even the same leveling system but much slower to level. We definitely need more fantasy MMOs where the combat, more than anything else, is direct. When people complain about tab-target/hotbar MMOs, I think part of the issue is that combat just becomes too abstract in that case. You're not doing a move because it's the right move in the situation--you're doing it because it's the next move in your rotation. In an effort to alleviate the boredom of standing around autoattacking, even melee classes get turned into "press buttons in order to do canned animations" mini-games. There's nothing wrong with special moves, obviously, but I think the best solution isn't so much to make every move a special move (which is functionally how most hotbar-based MMOs work) as it is to make the process of doing your basic attacks something that's engaging. You know, like any single-player action game does, whether it's Souls or DMC or God of War or anything else. If you can do a lot of engaging things by stringing your basic attacks together into combos, manually aiming ranged attacks for locational damage, and things like that, you don't need to rely as much on special abilities to keep combat engaging, so those abilities can be more, y'know, special. There definitely are MMOs that do this, often the Korean or Japanese action-MMOs like Vindictus, Blade & Soul, or Dragon's Dogma Online. I'd love to see a version of these that takes steps away from the rest of the Eastern-style MMO formula, though. I don't necessarily want this hypothetical game to conform to the Western-style MMO formula, either (heavy focus on repeatable instanced dungeons and too much focus on making the player go through a single-player-style story), but I'd prefer that to the "just grind mobs endlessly in the open world" PvE that games like Black Desert has.
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Sep 7, 2018 16:51
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Nazgul posted:I want the gameplay of Neverwinter, the politics and community and company developer style of EVE Online and the freedoms therein, the player housing of Wildstar, and the transmog system of WoW. Believe it or not, this is one thing that Elder Scrolls Online does way better than WoW. ESO's outfit system is pretty great. You can transmog any armor appearance over any other kind of armor, regardless of weight. Want to wear all light armor but look like you're wearing full plate? Go right ahead. Want to wear a mix of medium and heavy armor and look like you're wearing robes with a few pieces of plate? Yeah man, go for it. And the best part is that you don't have to redo your outfit every time you get a new piece of equipment like WoW does, because you're not actually changing the appearance of any of your items--you're just creating an outfit that you wear over whatever armor you have. Your outfit doesn't have to change when you change the armor you're actually wearing because it's not tied to those items at all. And you can have multiple outfit slots that you can switch between at any time. The one downside is that they do make you work harder to unlock armor appearances (you have to find the crafting motifs for those appearances, rather than just finding the item like in WoW) but it's a really flexible and good transmog system in general. Also is Neverwinter's gameplay actually good? From what I've seen of games I'd rather have the gameplay of Dragon's Dogma Online or Black Desert or something but if Neverwinter's combat is rad then cool
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Sep 10, 2018 15:14
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Fruity20 posted:I would pay good money for that poo poo. I think you'd need something reasonably human-like for people who want to make their pretty characters but I also don't know if it would "fail" without it. Really depends on what "fail" means and how strictly we're defining "human." Like if there was a Zelda MMO and the closest thing to human was Hylian, it'd be fine, because they're basically elves so they're human enough. But if it was WoW, only there was no Alliance and they never added blood elves, then I really don't know how many potential players would be lost.
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Sep 11, 2018 17:09
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Oh gently caress yeah I wanna play a dinosaur MMO
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Sep 11, 2018 22:39
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gently caress you I'm gonna spec my raptor to tank and nobody can stop me Gonna queue for dino dungeons with my raptor tank and get kicked from groups all day long
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Sep 11, 2018 22:51
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God drat it I might have to give it a try Do you have to do things to unlock classes like Alchemist and High Scepter?
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Sep 17, 2018 14:00
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Truga posted:This little known MMO I played called d&d online had a toggle (default bind T), you pushed it and it was free look 3rd person game, you pushed it again and got your mouse cursor back. It's not exactly rocket surgery. GW2 has this, too, as of the first expansion I think. Not everyone uses the free-look just because it can make it harder to place ground targets (you end up swinging your camera around like crazy) but I like it a lot for some classes.
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May 3, 2019 15:48
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One of these days I'll have to try out DDO. If nothing else, the High Scepter class looks like it is extremely my poo poo--I'm an absolute sucker for an agile swordmage-type guy with awesome-looking nukes. Although not much compares to the kind of cool bouncing around Alchemists get to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBxqtAVRUmE&t=42s
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May 3, 2019 18:02
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City of Heroes is back, so good MMOs live again
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May 16, 2019 23:09
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frajaq posted:It's just so hard to find an MMO that hooks me up these days, everything straight up feels soulless Go try out City of Heroes on the new Homecoming server if you haven't. If that game has one thing, it's loads of personality. There's really no other MMO like it. It's definitely flawed and has jank and the balance isn't great but it's a ton of fun anyway.
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May 31, 2019 19:07
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I was fine with the aesthetic and thought a lot of the game looked really fun but somehow I bounced off it before I even hit level 20. Something about the way it felt to play just didn't click with me at all. Wildstar had some really neat ideas. The housing looked fantastic. I liked the whole "paths" system that could give you different little side objectives based on what you were interested in (exploration, lore, combat, etc.), though I didn't play enough to know if that actually panned out. It was an MMO with a double-jump and that's great. It had some interesting classes and the very, very good idea to make sure every class had both a DPS role and a healer or tank role. I'm also generally a fan of "skill loadout" build systems, something Wildstar has in common with Guild Wars (1 and 2, though 1 was obviously a lot more flexible) and Secret World. I guess it's fine that it didn't click with me because I absolutely would've bounced off the endgame hard. If someone ever gets a private server up and running I'd be excited to go screw around ingame, though I imagine anyone who loved the game enough to put up a private server wouldn't be interested in re-tuning endgame stuff to be less bullshit.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:18
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Truga posted:why? a well designed f2p system is way better for the player than subscriptions. If it didn't have a subscription, going by what I've seen in other MMOs, the number of Mog Station items would go way up and start eating into the art budget for in-game items noticeably. We'd absolutely start seeing fewer in-game earnable armor sets and a lot more Mog Station outfits, for example.
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Apr 2, 2020 17:35
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Xun posted:I...I can't believe you're saying this garbage with a straight face What they're describing is sorta similar to Elder Scrolls Online's model, where you can either pay a sub and you get all the content updates as part of the sub (though you still have to buy expansions), or you don't pay the sub and you buy the content updates piecemeal. It works well for ESO but I think it'd be a disaster for FFXIV, especially because of how much emphasis FFXIV puts on its story being one continuous narrative. In ESO, each story drop mostly works standalone, so you can buy them piecemeal and be fine, but that wouldn't work in FFXIV at all.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:52
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yes instead of a subscription let's nickle and dime players for access to every little piece of content! Even Korean MMOs wouldn't dare pull that poo poo
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A question for the MMO chat thread: has there been any investigation or writing on why it is that North American players are less likely, proportionally, to participate in hard mode/"hardcore" raid content than players from other regions? This comes up in the two main MMOs I play, FFXIV and GW2. In both cases, participation in hard raids (savage raids in FFXIV and, well, raids in general in GW2) is measurably lower on NA servers compared to other ones. In FFXIV, JP players have a much higher rate of participating in savage raids, and in GW2, EU players have a much more active raiding scene than NA ones. I imagine there's a similar dynamic in WoW, given how it seems like the majority of world first competitor guilds seem to be on EU servers. I'm really curious why that is and if anything can be done to bridge the gap.
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Sep 21, 2021 13:53
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City of Heroes owns so much It's not even nostalgia for me. I played the game for like two weeks when it first launched and never again until the Homecoming server came out, and I had an absolute blast with it. Definitely best when you have an active group playing though.
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Oct 17, 2021 03:16
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If there was a Wildstar private server that made QoL tweaks and got rid of the endgame grindiness it'd probably be fun to mess around on. There were some fun features in that game that unfortunately got buried under an absolute avalanche of bad ideas.
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Oct 17, 2021 04:18
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