|
Solkanar512 posted:Come on dude, just tell me why my employer needed to spend nearly TWENTY BILLION on stock buybacks. It definitely gets a little abstract when you're talking about the secondary market, for sure, but that market still matters. If people couldn't cash out their shares it would be a lot more risky to invest in new ventures and there'd be a lot less equity funding (that mostly won't be replaced with debt funding, because also very risky). You'd end up with less formation of new businesses, I think, and even more consolidation of market share by big incumbent companies. So I think trading shares is probably necessary even if it seems kind of decadent sometimes. I really couldn't say about your employer (I don't know who you work for). What did they say about it?
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2018 18:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 11:54 |
|
|
wateroverfire posted:I'm not following this. Could you please explain what you mean? There are private equity firms and they've been around since the eighties that valuate companies to basically determine if the company's shares are worth more or less than the liquidated company. If that's the case they proceed in a couple of ways: They might buy and liquidate the company. Eg. Larry the Liquidator style. They might borrow against the company they are purchasing to extract money from it and then burden it with debt to fail at a later time after its been sold. Eg. The Mitt Romney They might pressure the business to raise the share price (by buybacks and dividends) at the expense of operations and employees. More over the current understanding of fiduciary duty to the shareholders is that this is thier fiduciary duty to do these things.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2018 18:56
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:I really couldn't say about your employer (I don't know who you work for). What did they say about it? It was pretty typical bullshit about enhancing our position in the market and being more competitive against our main rival.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2018 19:05
|
|
|
Been in food service for about 8 years in a variety of roles, from the back of house of small restaurants, to being a supervisor/assistant manager for the busiest cafe in Halifax, Canada. Still in Halifax now and will be for a few more years! Right now I'm bartending for Marriott, a gig that I've been enjoying quite a bit and have made some decent money with. It's also great for scheduling, as I'm going to school in the fall for a two year journalism program. Personally, I adore bartending, and have been practicing/writing about it in my free time. My bar at home has rapidly expanded, and I try to pick a different cocktail to practice every week or so and write a bit about, in as critical/academic a manner that I can. I figure if nothing else, it's good practice for school (26 in a few weeks, and haven't been to school in years). And, having people read the stuff I write and react positively is always a nice feeling! While I have issues with the hotel and how some things are done (lot's of red tape), I'm willing to overlook them to not have to deal with the issues that plague the industry. Wage theft, the poor treatment of staff (both back and front of house), lack of secure employment, and of course rampant sexual harassment are but a few of the issues. The most I deal with at my current place is a lack of control, and the occasional fuckup regarding a shift not being paid out correctly. That and under experienced supervisors/managers, but I can get around that usually. I'm willing to deal with these few issues and lower overall tips so as to not have to deal with all the other problems. The big issue right now though is for all of food service broadly speaking, as there is a huge drought regarding finding staff. The company at large is having problems everywhere, and I can speak to our own issues at my location. Both restaurants in my hotel are short staffed and have been for months now. The same issues are going on at a large number of places both big and small, around both the city and the country itself. I've been debating about going to a different, more cocktail focused bar, as there are a half dozen looking for bartenders alone right now. All told, I'd argue that these issues are somewhat justified as the earlier stated issues need to be addressed for people to actually want to come back to the industry. It's just kinda lovely right now as someone who works in it. That said, the food service industry desperately needs to tackle the previously mentioned problems in order for it to stay afloat. Current predictions are that things are going to get far worse if nothing gets done in the next few years. Figure I'll mention pay here: I make 15$/Hour at my current department (Bartending gigs in the hotel pay different depending on which department they are with). Tips vary wildly, and can range from a good 150-200$ on a busy night, to 50$ or less on a slow one. Good places in the city though can clear 500$ a night in tips alone, and that's just bartenders. Basic rule of thumb is servers make more in tips, but bartenders have A: More steady shifts and B: A higher base wage. When it's slow, I still make decent money, but when it's busy, my tips/tipout are far less than what our servers get. Being at the hotel, I tend to get less in tips than I would elsewhere as we are highly reliant on guests who are already staying with us, and are paying for rooms and such. In turn, they tend to tip far less. I do however get good benefits (at my previous 400$ dental visit, I paid maybe 50$ myself), at least while working full time. It's a job, and industry, all about trade offs and concessions to say the least.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2018 19:05
|
|
|
One of the good things about this thread is that it gives people the ability to talk about their real experiences, and to talk in concrete terms. Instead of repeating the same talking points in circles about the theoretical relationship between labor, capital and consumers, we can talk about our actual experience, and what we actually look for in a business. My worst job ever came when I was volunteering at the library, and met a fellow volunteer who ran the local farmer's market. She said she needed someone to work one day a week, a few hours, to set up and take down the facilities of the farmer's market: basically I set out chairs and picnic tables, put bags in the garbage cans, etcetera. So, this basically sounds like the easiest job ever. Hang out with some hippies, eat free burritos, do some very light manual work. About half way through the summer, my boss started getting really mean, making personal comments, calling my lazy, telling me that I was careless for not checking the tire pressure in the little red wagon that we used to move the water jugs around. I asked around and found out she did this every year. I talked to one of the board members, who told me that my boss "had darkness in her heart". I went through the week feeling depressed and anxious because I was just worried about what random thing was going to be brought out against me next (including, one day, saying "Hello"). So for me, what matters to me first is my experiences, rather than the theoretical question of whether someone somewhere might be getting money that in a just world they shouldn't. I would have preferred being paid 25 cents an hour, having that money go into some "capitalists" bank account, if it meant I wasn't going through a week where my face felt like styrofoam because I was so depressed and felt so trapped. And this might just be an anecdote, but kind of what I am asking about is...how much of workplace culture, especially the lovely parts, are not because of the "economic system", but because people are, in fact, lovely? Because I've also seen bad work environments in government work, and in the non-profit sector.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2018 19:22
|
|
|
Ultimately there's always going to be poo poo parts of every job, even good jobs, and people you don't get along with. A good job run by competent people will minimize the impact of these things so it's just an annoyance instead of something the causes depression and hopelessness.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Ultimately there's always going to be poo poo parts of every job, even good jobs, and people you don't get along with. A good job run by competent people will minimize the impact of these things so it's just an annoyance instead of something the causes depression and hopelessness. ---an adult, who has actually had a job, rather than someone who has read wikipedia articles on economic theories.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2018 22:11
|
|
|
Hello thread, I'm ExplodingSims and I work as an HVAC/R Technician. (AKA I fix the things what make you cold.) I made my way into the trade after working a series of service industry jobs. Worked for Olive Garden for a few years, got bored will college, started working for a friend's valet company, and then started going to tech school for HVAC stuff. I also got lucky, in that the tech colleges in Orange country (FL) have an agreement with Valencia that you also get college credits for finishing their program. (I got 24 for my program) Which meant that, combined with the credits I had from my earlier attempt, meant I was able to get a degree with only 4 more classes. Granted, its an A.A. in management, but hey. As for the industry itself, its sort of a mixed bag. I actually lucked out and managed to negotiate a fairly good wage for being in the industry for 4 years. (Currently making $26/hr, I started out at $17/hr) One of the good things about being in a trade, is that once you have a year or so experience under your belt, it's not really hard to find another job, and usually that can come with a pretty decent promotion. For the most part, I like the work I do. It's nice being able to work with your hands, and I specialize in controls stuff and mostly working with refrigeration, so I keep myself challenged. The hours can be long though, as in the summer it's not uncommon to be working 60 hours a week or more if your at a decent company. Though, it is hourly so it's all overtime, and in some cases double time. For the most part most companies offer paid holidays and medical/dental and retirement saving plans. Though, at least in my experience, companies will try to be reasonable about this. Now, of the 4 companies I've worked for, 3 have been smaller companies. I mean that in the sense that they were family owned, and not like the huge multi-state contractor companies. For the most part they'd be reasonable about things, IE if you had to run an emergency call at 3AM they'd give 8 hours from the time you got home to rest, if not just giving you the whole day off. They would also give out bonuses, as well as buying all their techs a Christmas gift as well. (Stuff like new gauges, electrical meters, etc) Of course, I work strictly in the commercial/industrial side of things, so the same may not apply to residential. That's a whole different story. Though, the trade is not without its issues. Toxic masculinity runs rampant through a lot of the industry. Lots of people who like to brag about how tough they are for being exploited. Like, for example when people were at Amazon were talking about how they were working 50 hour weeks and such, most people in this trade seemed to laugh it off as them being pussies who needed to learn what a real job is like. Stuff like that, plus the usual attitude to things like getting hurt, heat exhaustion, complaining about your job, etc. Then theres also I guess what you could call anti-intellectualism? You know, the things about how you can go to college for $50,000 and get a useless degree, or you could go to trade school like A REAL MAN and be earning $50,000 right out of the gate. Which, I mean, there certainly is a conversation to be had about such things. There does seem to be a lot of bias towards tradespeople as being dumb-dumbs who couldn't make in high school/college, or too "low class" to succeed otherwise. And that's no say nothing of how schools seem to push COLLEGE IS THE ONLY WAY YOU'LL SUCCEED IN LIFE throughout high school. That being said, I personally think that people should be free to do what makes them happy, or what they're interested in. You shouldn't be going to college just because you want the degree that should earn you the most money, you should be able to go and study what you're passionate about. The wold still need artists, and history majors and what have you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 01:09
|
|
|
ExplodingSims posted:Though, the trade is not without its issues. Toxic masculinity runs rampant through a lot of the industry. Lots of people who like to brag about how tough they are for being exploited. Like, for example when people were at Amazon were talking about how they were working 50 hour weeks and such, most people in this trade seemed to laugh it off as them being pussies who needed to learn what a real job is like. Stuff like that, plus the usual attitude to things like getting hurt, heat exhaustion, complaining about your job, etc. I'd love to hear your opinion on how these kind of issues play out from a generational perspective. I also work in the trades (fire protection) and see a pretty big shift away from some of the worst of the above with the younger guys. I currently have 2 apprentices avg age of 30 and both are really great about not giving any regard to the toxic crap, and also look at working as a tradesman as a very intellectual pursuit. Considering the knowledge required to properly install and service the modern integrated systems of MEP trades, being a dumb-dumb is the least apt descriptor. I know there are plenty that hate to hear the refrain 'go get a job in the trades,' but there really are a lot of open positions, and soon to be open positions, as the existing workforce is rapidly reaching retirement age. Median wages for Mechanical, Electrical, Plumbing, and Fire Protection trades nationwide hover around $50K, and it really is a field where the more you know about your field the higher a salary you can command. Not sure if FL as trade licensing, but all the above is even more true if you do work in a license required state as the job pool is super confined. Once you get your license, if you know your poo poo, you can make top dollar.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
Possible career tip - learn to do solar roof installs, and move to California. Solar rooves are poised to become mandatory on all new construction, which is obviously going to be a dramatic increase in demand, with no effort having been made to provoke a corresponding increase in supply.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:02
|
|
|
roomforthetuna posted:Possible career tip - learn to do solar roof installs, and move to California. Solar rooves are poised to become mandatory on all new construction, which is obviously going to be a dramatic increase in demand, with no effort having been made to provoke a corresponding increase in supply. This is somewhat similar to my state where they keep attempting to make fire protection required in all new residential construction. Like I mean, I really support the idea since modern lightweight wood frame construction burns like hell itself, but I'm pretty sure our state's FP industry would get crushed under the weight of a million townhomes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:09
|
|
|
SpaceCadetBob posted:I'd love to hear your opinion on how these kind of issues play out from a generational perspective. I also work in the trades (fire protection) and see a pretty big shift away from some of the worst of the above with the younger guys. I currently have 2 apprentices avg age of 30 and both are really great about not giving any regard to the toxic crap, and also look at working as a tradesman as a very intellectual pursuit. Considering the knowledge required to properly install and service the modern integrated systems of MEP trades, being a dumb-dumb is the least apt descriptor. I would say that a lot of the worst stuff I talked about earlier definitely comes from the older crowd. I think, in FL, at least, the perception that trades are less valuable is due to racism, as the trades in FL tend to be majority Hispanic. I'm 26 myself, and for the most part, a lot of people my age or younger seem to see the trades as a perfectly acceptable place to work. If nothing else because you can actually earn a decent wage compared to just about anything else. Everyone I've worked with who's breaking into HVAC always is very eager, and certainly views it as a very skilled trade. Though, you still get the types who barge in with a big speech about how "They're a millennial but they believe in hard work and  " Although, those types are almost exclusively white guys, so make of that what you will. I will also say that Union participation seems to be on the rise as well. And I absolutely agree with you, at least looking into the trades is a very good idea right now, as there is a massive shortage of tradespeople looming on the horizon. If you can get into more specialized stuff the money you can make is insane. I've really been wanting to get into doing industrial stuff myself, as you can easily be making $50-60/hr in that area, but historically its been hard to break into because all the guys who get in never leaver.  I currently live and work in Las Vegas, and will hopefully soon be working in Oregon, but I've never really seen any other kind of licensing needed to do trade stuff. For HVAC you need the EPA 608 certification, but that's it. From talking to the guy in Portland though, apparently Oregon requires some kind of brazing cert, but that's the only other thing I've heard of so far.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:17
|
|
|
SpaceCadetBob posted:I'd love to hear your opinion on how these kind of issues play out from a generational perspective. I also work in the trades (fire protection) and see a pretty big shift away from some of the worst of the above with the younger guys. I currently have 2 apprentices avg age of 30 and both are really great about not giving any regard to the toxic crap, and also look at working as a tradesman as a very intellectual pursuit. Considering the knowledge required to properly install and service the modern integrated systems of MEP trades, being a dumb-dumb is the least apt descriptor. Yeah, I started out as a software developer and now I'm a pilot (which is sort of a trade, I guess?) and there is way less toxic poo poo in the latter profession. I mean, it still exists, but given that all but one of the pilot examiners in our area, and most of the instructors, are badass women who take no poo poo, you will not get very loving far if you have a bunch of bullshit machismo nonsense. And like with all trades, the only people who think it's easy or somehow non-intellectual are those who aren't doing it. It's actually much more mentally challenging and engaging than designing the same goddamn web app over and over again for a slightly different client.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:22
|
|
|
I've become more and more convinced that private equity is largely a scam, in the sense that the practical effect is usually to loot the company of valuable assets, load it up with debt, and then reward the executives for their "efforts" with a gold plated ejector seat. The zombified husk of the company will then typically stagger on for awhile, maybe decide it can no longer meet obligations to its own employees, who it typically values even LESS than unsecured creditors. Unfortunately those employees don't have the option of going back in time and NOT going to work every day in that steel plant (or wherever)... they already met THEIR end of the bargain. The savvier vultures have moved on well before the carcass is picked entirely clean, and they're already circling over another company that appears wounded and falling behind the herd.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:27
|
|
|
PT6A posted:And like with all trades, the only people who think it's easy or somehow non-intellectual are those who aren't doing it. It's actually much more mentally challenging and engaging than designing the same goddamn web app over and over again for a slightly different client. It's money and cultural pressures. Being a software developer or in IT just pays a mountain of cash and physical labor of any kind is demonized as something for losers. If you polled every active user on the entirety of this forum, most of them are probably in tech-related fields. And if we all made the decision to just work in a field that paid the most money, no one would be left to work the farm, empty your trash, fix your toilets, pave your roads, groom your stupid dog, fly you to your vacation in Peru where you'll take the same picture countless others have of Machu Picchu, and so on. A lot of it's going to be automated or made obsolete in time, but it's not totally there yet. But it's also a class thing. Trade labor is something for the dredges of society, no matter how essential it is. As long as that stuff is done far away from where I am and I never have to catch sight of it or think about it, then those people can toil away in their farms and workshops and factories while I enjoy the good life pretending to be cultured because I read some books and eat Ethiopian a few times a month. Star Man fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Sep 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:30
|
|
|
ExplodingSims posted:I currently live and work in Las Vegas, and will hopefully soon be working in Oregon, but I've never really seen any other kind of licensing needed to do trade stuff. For HVAC you need the EPA 608 certification, but that's it. I'd say about a third of the states have some sort of state trade license for technician work, and another bunch require it just for the business owner. Briefly looking most of the states that have technician licenses are on the east coast.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:32
|
|
|
Over the long term, some form of universal basic income that is scaled to automatically adjust along with increasing automation is pretty much the only answer. I'd like to think in a few generations time, most of humanity won't be forced to spend the majority of their waking hours doing poo poo they don't even care about, just for the sake of survival. The majority of work people do today even could be largely automated even with current technology, and it'll become infinitely easier as AI advances. It's only right that all of humanity share in the fruits of that massive productivity. "Labor costs" would essentially be so low in an automation driven utopia, and high value consumer goods readily available to all, that it could be a heaven on earth if we do it right. Or we just continue with the default option track we're on now, and everyone become slaves (or more likely killed off in endless conflicts) to the .0001% who control those automated processes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:36
|
|
|
SpaceCadetBob posted:I'd say about a third of the states have some sort of state trade license for technician work, and another bunch require it just for the business owner. Briefly looking most of the states that have technician licenses are on the east coast. Oh, are you talking getting a contractor's license? Because, yeah you definitely need that if you want to run your own business. But as an individual you don't need one just to go work for a company. Star Man posted:It's money and cultural pressures. Being a software developer or in IT just pays a mountain of cash and physical labor of any kind is demonized as something for losers. If you polled every active user on the entirety of this forum, most of them are probably in tech-related fields. Yeah, this is the kind of attitude I was talking about earlier. Though, it does seem to kinda be fading away as trades become more appealing, since they're one of the few ways of earning a living wage without paying $Texas for a college degree. Also, since the "Just learn how to code!" bubble seems to be deflating. At the end of the day though, you still need people to run the systems that keep society running. You still need people to keep your pipes flowing, keep the power on, keep your server rooms cold, etc. And the trades are at least somewhat automation resistant. But it is still coming, and that seems like something that people don't want to talk about in the trades. I've brought it up before, but it's not going to be robot replacing people, well, not yet at least. But sensors, transducers, etc, are going to be making it less and less specialized, and make it a lot easier to hire people to just be parts changers instead of actual techs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:43
|
|
|
ExplodingSims posted:And the trades are at least somewhat automation resistant. But it is still coming, and that seems like something that people don't want to talk about in the trades. I've brought it up before, but it's not going to be robot replacing people, well, not yet at least. But sensors, transducers, etc, are going to be making it less and less specialized, and make it a lot easier to hire people to just be parts changers instead of actual techs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 03:53
|
|
|
Ocrassus posted:In aviation, progression is mostly handled via seniority, which is just based on join date. You have checkups every 6 months to make sure you can fly safe, but otherwise there isn't really any performance metric for progression, with the exception of a command course that moves you from the right hand side (first officer) to the left (captain), which also usually resets your seniority. Flying, particularly international, is still relatively well compensated but certainly does not have the prestige it once did, the very expensive training is no longer sponsored and has to be paid for by the applicant, and the very generous perks (known in the industry as the Ts&Cs) have been whittled down significantly. There’s a notorious Malcom Gladwell article where he talks about a plane crash on the South Korean national carrier being caused by their seniority based command structure, which he naturally explains is a result of the Confucian hive-mind collectivism of the Korean mind http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html?m=1 icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Sep 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 09:04
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Yeah, I started out as a software developer and now I'm a pilot (which is sort of a trade, I guess?) and there is way less toxic poo poo in the latter profession. I mean, it still exists, but given that all but one of the pilot examiners in our area, and most of the instructors, are badass women who take no poo poo, you will not get very loving far if you have a bunch of bullshit machismo nonsense. Super curious about this, what made you transition and at what age? My experience with pilots is that they trend conservative (whenever politics is brought up) and there is a lot of politics around carriers and training programs (and, here in Europe, so-called 'magenta line' types). I'm wondering if those who come later to the profession are somehow different; icantfindaname posted:There’s a notorious Malcom Gladwell article where he talks about a plane crash on the South Korean national carrier being caused by their seniority based command structure, which he naturally explains is a result of the Confucian hive-mind collectivism of the Korean mind It is now extremely common practice to train FOs to know when and how to challenge the captain in the cockpit. The pilot monitoring is meant to function as a check on the pilot flying, regardless of rank, and that means calling things out and making sure SOPs are adhered to.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 17:35
|
|
|
Ocrassus posted:Super curious about this, what made you transition and at what age? I got my private license at 17 with the aim of flying commercially, but at the time the job market for pilots was terrible and everyone advised me to get a university degree, so I did, again with the intention of then going back to flying. But at the end of university, especially with good job prospects, I didn't really want to give up a pretty easy lifestyle to go back to training, low pay and a job that would involve a lot of actual hard work and no more partying whenever I wanted, etc. About 6 years after I got done with university, so around 27/28, I decided I should get back into flying just as a hobby this time, since I always enjoyed doing it. A few people advised me to get a commercial license just for the extra training, and a possible insurance discount if I were to buy my own plane. Then, a few months into the training, I realized I was driving to the airport in the middle of winter around the asscrack of dawn, to have to pre-flight and fuel the plane in -20 windchill, and I was actually looking forward to it, as opposed to dreading getting up to do a job I long since stopped enjoying any part of despite the fact it was "easy" and I got to work from home. So, I completed the commercial license, then I did multi-engine and instrument ratings, and my instructor rating, and now I'm working part-time as an instructor and part-time as a freelance developer (which has allowed me to be a lot choosier about the projects I want to take on, and at the same time, if I can't fly because of a string of bad weather or whatever, I can still make money). It's amazing how many people have similar stories, actually. I've run into a few people now who've done basically the exact same thing. As for the political leanings, I've worked in tech and the majority of the stuff I've done is for oilpatch companies, and I live in the most conservative province in Canada by most metrics, so I think the industry is less conservative than what I'm used to, but it might still be fairly conservative overall. The place I work is also pretty diverse compared to those other industries I'm familiar with, so if you're some kind of racist or sexist, it will likely be intolerable for you. That being said, this may not be the case at other employers with a different corporate culture.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 17:54
|
|
|
ExplodingSims posted:
One thing that is somewhat ironic about university versus blue collar work, is that to me, university takes a lot less "preparation". The tools you need to study in a university are tools that are everywhere, and are often free or cheap. Like if you want to read literature or learn about history, even a small town public library probably has enough to get a curious young teen a big head start. You can be intellectual for cheap. With things like science and math and technology, you do kind of need some type of facilities, but you can still learn a lot of the principles behind things like electronics, even if you can't practice. So with those types of things, you can study and learn on your own. Contrast that with something like learning to drive a forklift...you can't just go to the local library and check out a forklift or a welding kit. Those type of things require connections and structured programs to learn about. As a teenager, I learned the principles of electronics from Isaac Asimov books (which cost me a dollar each at a thrift store), but I never got a chance to look at a circuit or get hands-on experience. I became academic not because I was middle class, but because of the opposite.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2018 19:30
|
|
|
With the recent turn of the thread, this seems like a good time for me contribute. I am professionally hosed, but perhaps I can contribute something. While I have many jobs over the years, the only ones that I consider relevant are the more recent ones. These actually paid a living wage (barely) and I cared about my work. I actually did a STEM degree at around normal university age and accumulated zero debt in getting it but, despite popular myth, I couldn't make a living with it and went back to a public university in the US which fortunately was "in-state" for me at the time and had world-class department in my area of interest. I had a wonderful time there, both scholastically and personally, but fell into the American trap of going into crippling, inescapable debt. I graduated something cum laude (whichever the middle one is; can't remember and can't be arsed to look it up) and had my pick of all of the best graduate schools in my field, but left without my PhD because I didn't want to spent my life doing pointless research like a lot of the people that I meant there. I decided to focus on teaching. I got my big break and my first full-time job was at a small college in the NW desert of the US. Non-tenured/tenure-track faculty at universities, even full-time ones, make considerably less than even public school teachers despite requiring a graduate degree to do so. I basically had to single-handedly manage my own university minor programme despite having only previously worked as a heavily-supervised TA in grad school and then one semester part-time. I worked 60-70 hours per week with no real help for two years and then they discontinued my position. I found a one-year replacement position for a faculty member on leave at a public university one state over. The cost of living was too high for such a rural area (milk was over $4 a gallon) and my wages were laughable, but the benefits were incredible despite this being a very "red" state. I got on very well with my colleagues and my students loved me, but the faculty member came back as expected. The only job that I could find was on the other side of the US and it wiped out my minimal savings and my meagre 401k to move. I was there for one year under a brand new supervisor who everyone hated and did nothing but mark exams and homework because they thought that "mountains of busy work" was a good substitute for "actual contact hours." My colleagues, most of whom were very experienced, were passive-aggressive with her, but I made the mistake of being aggressive-aggressive and we fought all the time. I was not sad to not get a contract for the next year and I ended up getting a much better paying job 90 minutes away. It was a 4th-rate college, but it was much less tedious than before. Despite having good peer and supervisor reviews and excellent student evaluations, they got rid of me after one year but refused to tell me why. I didn't find a job for the following year nor for this one that just began, so my career is in the toilet and I spent all of my piddling savings on moving from one gig to the next. I realise that this is not a happy CV, but that's the truth of it. For those of you who are happy in your work and doing well... good on you; I envy you that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 01:47
|
|
|
My wife was staring that down after her masters. It blows.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 02:00
|
|
|
glowing-fish posted:One thing that is somewhat ironic about university versus blue collar work, is that to me, university takes a lot less "preparation". The tools you need to study in a university are tools that are everywhere, and are often free or cheap. Like if you want to read literature or learn about history, even a small town public library probably has enough to get a curious young teen a big head start. You can be intellectual for cheap. With things like science and math and technology, you do kind of need some type of facilities, but you can still learn a lot of the principles behind things like electronics, even if you can't practice. So with those types of things, you can study and learn on your own. Contrast that with something like learning to drive a forklift...you can't just go to the local library and check out a forklift or a welding kit. Those type of things require connections and structured programs to learn about. As a teenager, I learned the principles of electronics from Isaac Asimov books (which cost me a dollar each at a thrift store), but I never got a chance to look at a circuit or get hands-on experience. I became academic not because I was middle class, but because of the opposite. FWIW this is literally all of business school, too. You can learn more about business by leading a guild in WoW or farming an online game to flip items for cash than you can in a classroom. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Sep 4, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 14:14
|
|
|
Cicero posted:You misunderstand. In that comment I was just talking about individual decisions given the economic context we currently live in, not what would be preferable for society. It was more of a philosophical question: is it better to not be exploited for the fruits of your labor, even when being exploited would mean actually getting more "fruits"? I don't think it is strange for someone to interpret a post referencing a real-world anecdote where someone has a good job despite exploitation (followed by talking about the possibility of being people exploited having better jobs) as implying that good jobs are somewhat a result of (or dependent on) exploitation. In the real world, most people do not benefit from being exploited, so it's a pointless hypothetical to bring up. glowing-fish posted:So for me, what matters to me first is my experiences, rather than the theoretical question of whether someone somewhere might be getting money that in a just world they shouldn't. I would have preferred being paid 25 cents an hour, having that money go into some "capitalists" bank account, if it meant I wasn't going through a week where my face felt like styrofoam because I was so depressed and felt so trapped. This logic doesn't make any sense, since "how much a person is being paid" is a completely separate thing from whether their workplace is unpleasant in other ways. There is nothing about being paid less that somehow causes the work itself will be more pleasant, and the fact that higher paid work can also be more unpleasant is not in any way an argument against requiring that it be higher paid. wateroverfire posted:The part of your labor product you aren't paid is the rent you pay to the rest of your organization to help keep it operational, and for allowing you to use it to make money. It's awfully convenient that your same logic could be used to justify virtually any exploitative situation short of outright slavery. I mean seriously, just think about it for a second. Imagine that a business is actually unjustly profiting from the labor of its employees (something that you seem to think is fictional, but bear with me). Your exact same argument could be used to defend the business in that situation. Of course, we don't really need such an abstract argument, since we know for a fact that wealth inequality has skyrocketed while more workers' wealth/income has stayed stagnant (which very directly shows that the upper class is benefiting from the labor of the working class). glowing-fish posted:---an adult, who has actually had a job, rather than someone who has read wikipedia articles on economic theories. It seems like the reality is actually the opposite of the stereotype you're working with here (in the sense that, at least on these forums, the people who make statements like this are usually far more well off than those they're attacking).
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 18:06
|
|
|
Cicero posted:See, this is interesting to me. My perspective is, yes being "exploited" isn't exactly great, but I'll take a higher-paying job where some of my productivity gets "stolen" by my employer, over a lower-paying one where I keep everything. Because the tangible outcome of the former is superior. The attitude of, "yes I get less money this way, but at least I keep everything I make" to me feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm actually very much with Flowers for Algeria, who posted on the first page of this thread. The older I get and the more disdainful I become of capitalism, the more I despise working in the private sector. I would much rather be a public employee than a private one simply because I hate myself far less in doing so. If he has been able to only work in the public services all of his life, I envy him that. Unfortunately, I have had to work in the for-profit world many times out of necessity because the alternative was literally homeless and starving, and I suppose that I am not firm enough in my beliefs to die for them. Working in the public sector makes me feel like I am making my, admittedly modest, contribution to society and that I am part of a team working to make a better civilisation. Working in the private sector makes me feel a pawn of people whose every thought is "MAKE MORE MONEY NOW NOW NOW!!!" where I try to force people to buy goods that they probably don't need and can't really afford so that I can continue the cycle of overconsumption and exploitation that is global capitalism. Capitalism and private industry is built on either being the exploited or the exploiter and, as someone who is not a sociopath, I cannot morally justify a system where the very few leech ludicrous amounts of wealth from the very many who have to live on the scraps. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Sep 4, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 18:26
|
|
|
JustJeff88 posted:
This doesn't sound exactly like adjunct faculty (because you were working 60 hours instead of 6), but it sounds like the new academic experience. I was an adjunct instructor for two terms. As I describe it, being an adjunct instructor is a really good job...if you don't need a job. At one point, when I had very few classes, I was working 6 hours a week, and making 500 dollars a month. Making an extra 500 dollars a month for working two evenings a week is a pretty good deal. (And that is actually on the bottom end of the payscale for adjunct teaching.) But on the other hand, no one can live off of 500 dollars a month without another income. And, of course, every ten weeks, you had to find out whether you were unemployed for the next ten weeks. But more than that, its a sign of how the "gig economy" has spread to activities that were at one time considered to be very formal employment. And how much of a gap there is between millenials and boomers about things like this. Some years ago (I think after I had this job), I was talking about how hard it was to find a job in higher education. And someone (who I assumed was a boomer, but I don't know) chimed in to tell me that Portland Community College has classes at night and perhaps I could start there? Like, to a lot of people, there is the idea that a Master's Degree means permanent job, with benefits, but that in a tough time, you can always start "at the bottom rung", and work your way up. But their idea of "bottom rung" would be a job that would be a very big stretch for most people in the field (teaching adjunctly in a large community college system usually requires a Master's in ESL and at least 2 years experience and sometimes 5 years). So there is this disconnect where our ceiling is their floor! I think it is just taking a while for the message to percolate through popular culture, (especially because popular culture is going to glamorize life). Like take a show like Parks and Recreation: a character like Tom Haverford, who seems to be an office employee with no special talents, still has a permanent, middle-class job. So its kind of hard to go against that type of cultural inertia, where having "standard skills" is the bar for being middle class and easily employed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 18:33
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:
What is interesting is that you manage to use neither empathy, nor logic, when reading my statement. Like, some people have a deficit of one or the other, but you seem to lack both. Let me rephrase what I was saying in small pieces: "If a job situation is psychologically difficult, I find it unpleasant regardless of the structure of the job". Just like "If apples have worms in them, I don't like to eat them" doesn't mean "Apples always have worms in them" or "Apples usually have worms in them", I wasn't saying that corporate jobs are necessarily psychologically better, just that if they are that is worth the fact that I am getting paid less. Or that some of my pay is going to a rent holder. The statement I used was actually in the Third Conditional: talking about two different hypothetical situations in the past. If I could magically choose between a job with a small employer where I was very unhappy, and a job with a corporation where I was less unhappy, I would choose the first. (Obviously there are other considerations, I wouldn't work doing something morally wrong). But since logic can be difficult, lets skip it and I just want to ask you directly: You have a choice of two jobs. In one, you are working for a non-profit. You don't get paid on time, your boss is angry and personally insults you, and sometimes even kicks holes in walls, you have a co-worker who drinks on the job but no one can do anything, you are exposed to safety and health hazards, and that is just the way it goes. In the other job, you are working for a totally boring multinational corporation, working in a cubicle, doing some sort of abstract internal process work (editing TPS reports, maybe), and while you don't get any personal satisfaction or meaning from it, your co-workers are nice, your office is comfortable, your and your boss is passably nice to you. So, between those two choices, which one do you choose? Yes, and I know obviously this is kind of a "trolley problem", because maybe you can find a non-profit that is also nice. Or even if you don't have to choose, would you have no reservations about your choice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 19:05
|
|
|
- I'm a VP for a large financial organization (which really means nothing as a title, it just determines income) that does User Experience and Training Development. I work remotely. That makes me around 150k a year. - I was also simultaneously a UX lead for a top automotive company until 6 months or so ago, when I found out my old manager screwed me over with HR by not telling them I had another job when I hired on a few years ago. I now am a design consultant that does a lot of videography for a second job, and am also remote, there. But yeah, I worked full time for two Fortune 50 companies at once in somewhat managerial positions. Automotive UX made me 120k a year. I'm working 30 hours a week as a consultant instead of full time now, though, and that makes me around 80k or so a year. - I also am part owner of a restaurant in my city and am looking to expand to more restaurants/bars. - I also do random extra-ing or stand-ins in movies/television when there's something I want to be in. That makes me like 15 an hour or something when I do it, plus overtime, and there's always overtime for that. - I also design my own indie video games - I also DJ Those are the things I technically make money from. All my salaries together, plus side stuff make me around 300k a year in income. I never graduated high school or got a GED because I thought it was boring since I just read the books at the beginning of the year on my own and learned things. I went to art school with the community college loophole I figured out and took graphic design and started designing websites and doing graphic design in the late 90s and making dinky Flash movies that were put on Newgrounds, etc. before I expanded to doing more of my own stuff. And I gradually moved up the design ranks to become a lead/Creative Director/manager and make more money, as I was week to week and barely surviving as just being a mid level designer until I was like 31 or 32 (I'm 39 now). I'm a crazy person that has to learn how to do every single thing on the planet, and who has no wife or kids so all my time is spent reading, learning, and working. The only thing I find fulfilling in working for corporations is solving a problem (which is what I like about programming). Otherwise, I just focus on getting more and more income so that I can do the things I really enjoy like swimming with sharks and learning how to fly helicopters and traveling the world. The only time I was ever actually happy with work/career was when I was making a living making my own video games and selling them on my own. And I am strongly considering shifting back over to that. Oh, and the other thing that makes work tolerable is not having to go into an office. I'm an introvert and see that as a giant waste of time and hate office politics (me not playing them is why I got let go from auto company). And one of my largest pieces of advice is that any company will screw you over at any time through no fault of your own. Especially the larger ones, as the larger the company, the more bloat and more actual morons that hyperfocus on gaining more and more power within said company. Darko fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Sep 4, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
Darko posted:- I'm a VP for a large financial organization (which really means nothing as a title, it just determines income) that does User Experience and Training Development. I work remotely. That makes me around 150k a year. Well, if you aren't a pathological liar, congratulations!  Okay, kind of a random question, but I am imagining that being an extra is not something you do for the money...if you are making 150K a year, making an extra 100 bucks on the weekend, or whatever, doesn't seem to be very worthwhile...
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 21:44
|
|
|
glowing-fish posted:Well, if you aren't a pathological liar, congratulations! I'm not, haha, I've made games with the help of people on here, and you can reverse figure out who I am from that history because I have interviews and stuff still online around those games. My name is pretty easy to find if someone actually tried. Extra-ing is something I do because I love filmmaking. However, I started extra-ing in my 20s, and the extra 200 bucks helped a whole lot back then. I would even be in Lifetime movies then. My dumb state got rid of its film incentives, though, so the last movie I was in was Batman v Superman, which I talked about in CineD when it was shooting. I get calls every now and then to be in stuff like Detroiters, but at this point, I just pick and choose stuff that I actually care about. Also, while I'm technically "rich," I'm also recently so, and basically two job losses away from being right back to scraping. Part of me having multiple jobs is paranoia about losing jobs, which is earned from being randomly screwed over so many times, jobwise, in my life. The difference between being rich and actual wealth. I grew up as a poor black kid in the city that became a middle class black kid and then finally a lower-rich adult, and don't have any familial property or wealth to my name outside of what I'm growing on my own now. Darko fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Sep 4, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 21:53
|
|
|
Darko posted:Extra-ing is something I do because I love filmmaking. However, I started extra-ing in my 20s, and the extra 200 bucks helped a whole lot back then. I would even be in Lifetime movies then. My dumb state got rid of its film incentives, though, so the last movie I was in was Batman v Superman, which I talked about in CineD when it was shooting. I get calls every now and then to be in stuff like Detroiters, but at this point, I just pick and choose stuff that I actually care about. sup, i work across the street from the studio where that was filmed. in fact i may go outside and throw a rock at it, right now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 22:18
|
|
|
Darko posted:
This is really interesting, and fits the discussion about being a "straddler". I want to hear more about what is is like to be a straddler, especially a black straddler. A lot of your story applies to me (including the GED and getting money after being poor), but that is as a white person---and as a white person, I kind of had the luxury of being "an outsider", I could just have a GED and read books and people would assume I was a nerdy outsider, not a criminal. A lot of times, black kids have to walk the line much more exactly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 22:59
|
|
|
I loaded trucks until I was 25 (had a 2 yr degree in communications that seemed useless at the time). Then I stumbled into an entry level corporate IT job and excelled at it because the job was a joke. I leveraged that + luck + cross country move into further and more lucrative tech jobs. Specifically in the area of "Product" which I am in good at and is in high demand, because everyone was told to be a software engineer and turns out software engineering skillsets don't match up well with product management and oh my where are all these people with soft skills who also understand tech? Anyway, 8 years later, I've more than tripled my salary (at 165, in SF money, but still) and am in a scenario I never thought would occur wherein I can bounce jobs every year (or less!) and continuously make more money. None of these will be as "hard" as loading trucks. re: big company vs small company, I like the latter more because autonomy makes me happier and because you're in a better position when you wanna say pay me more or I leave. Also: Solkanar512 posted:So anyone else here a "straddler"? That is, someone who grew up blue-collar and ended up in the white collar world with all the WASPy pretension that comes with it? I've been meaning to read Lubrano's "Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams" (decent review here) but in the meantime I'd love to hear from others who've been through similar experiences. The concept of being "bicultural" is something I hadn't considered before, but it really hits home. Thanks for the book rec. I could use this. I'm sure it can help explain the rising contempt I feel for otherwise pleasant people I meet at work and around.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2018 23:09
|
|
|
glowing-fish posted:You have a choice of two jobs. In one, you are working for a non-profit. You don't get paid on time, your boss is angry and personally insults you, and sometimes even kicks holes in walls, you have a co-worker who drinks on the job but no one can do anything, you are exposed to safety and health hazards, and that is just the way it goes. In the other job, you are working for a totally boring multinational corporation, working in a cubicle, doing some sort of abstract internal process work (editing TPS reports, maybe), and while you don't get any personal satisfaction or meaning from it, your co-workers are nice, your office is comfortable, your and your boss is passably nice to you. Twist: The work at the non profit is not very rewarding in practice and the executive director and their staff seem really well paid while you scratch out a living making less than you would washing cars because you really believe in the mission, assured that next year they will try their best to get you full time hours and benefits if they can just find room in the budget.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 15:08
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Twist: The work at the non profit is not very rewarding in practice and the executive director and their staff seem really well paid while you scratch out a living making less than you would washing cars because you really believe in the mission, assured that next year they will try their best to get you full time hours and benefits if they can just find room in the budget. Yeah, it's certainly not all non-profits, but a lot of them rely on guilt and the idea that you're contributing to making the world a better place, to exploit the gently caress out of employees. Charities and such organizations primarily using guilt, either to solicit donations or employees, can shove that poo poo right up their rear end and gently caress off as they're doing it. I donate to plenty of charities and the one thing they all have in common is that they made a good pitch, and then let me decide whether to donate and how much. That's how an ethical organization behaves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 15:19
|
|
|
glowing-fish posted:This is really interesting, and fits the discussion about being a "straddler". I want to hear more about what is is like to be a straddler, especially a black straddler. A lot of your story applies to me (including the GED and getting money after being poor), but that is as a white person---and as a white person, I kind of had the luxury of being "an outsider", I could just have a GED and read books and people would assume I was a nerdy outsider, not a criminal. A lot of times, black kids have to walk the line much more exactly. I'm fortunate enough to be relatively light skinned and have freckles, so I don't get as much of the typical "scary black man" thing and was always "one of the good ones." The outsider role always worked with me as well for that reason, while it didn't for my darker friends.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 15:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 11:54 |
|
|
Darko posted:I'm not, haha, I've made games with the help of people on here, and you can reverse figure out who I am from that history because I have interviews and stuff still online around those games. My name is pretty easy to find if someone actually tried. Invest as much as you can for now in Vanguard index funds. Once you hit 1 million you won't have to worry about scraping.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2018 15:40
|
|
