The Good Place Season 3 - You put the peeps in the chili and you renew for s4

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Good Place Season 3 - You put the peeps in the chili and you renew for s4

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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Renaissance Spam posted:

This does raise and interesting question regarding secularism vs religion; does a person doing a good act because it's the right thing to do get more points than someone doing it because it's a tenet of their faith?

Let's look to real life. Islam teaches that it's completely possible for a non-Muslim to end up in heaven because right acts are right regardless of who does them or why. There's no explicit point system, just three broad categories (minor, major, and STRAIGHT TO HELL). If you commit a sin against another person, there are four ways to make it up.

A. Do enough good things to balance it out. You don't know the exact points of any given act so you've got to just hope you do enough.
B. Get the victim to forgive you. Doesn't matter if they only forgive you because you paid them off, it's fine.
C. Pray super-hard to Allah. You have no way of knowing if Allah actually forgives you so this is risky.
D. If you take your punishment, the sin is absolved. So Muslims believe they are morally obligated to stone people to death for adultery.

You're probably wondering "wait what do you go straight-to-hell for": atheism and rejecting the truth of Islam once it's been presented to you, so if Islam is correct I may have imperiled the immortal soul of everyone reading this.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2018 03:49

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 20:42

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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The weird thing about knowing about the Good Place meaning your good deeds don't count is that billions of people believe in the Good Place. They very sincerely believe that helping the poor etc will result in them going to Heaven and if they don't do those things they will go to the Bad Place and in the absence of their sincere belief in an afterlife they probably would not do those things. The idea that your good deeds are balanced against bad deeds isn't at all revolutionary, e.g. the ancient Egyptian belief that Maat weighs your soul's heart against the feather of truth and if it is lighter you go to paradise and if it is heavier you are eaten.

Gobbeldygook fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Oct 28, 2018

# ¿ Oct 28, 2018 07:36

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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Robot Hobo posted:

So far we only have the word of demons and a couple neutral entities to go on that the good place even exists. We've yet to see the place, or anyone actually from there, and as far as we know none of these beings has actually been there to see for themselves. The very existence of a Good Place could just be the celestial equivalent of an urban legend.

No, we also saw a representative from the Good Place in Mindy St. Clair's orientation video.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2018 08:10

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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The book Doug is reading when we first see him, The Most Good You Can Do, is a real book not a background text gag. In it Singer talks a little about me so I have a selfish desire to promote it.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2018 16:07

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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Also Doug did not put as much thought into his diet as he could've. Jainism is a religion practiced by several million people that is famous for their utter dedication to non-violence. For example, Jainist monks carry a broom with them at all times for sweeping away the ground before they sit down so as to not accidentally crush any minute life that might be there. Wikipedia on their diet:

quote:

For Jains, lacto-vegetarianism is mandatory. Food is restricted to that originating from plants, since plants have only one sense ('ekindriya') and are the least developed form of life, and dairy products. Food that contains even the smallest particles of the bodies of dead animals or eggs is unacceptable.[17][18] Some Jain scholars and activists support veganism, as the modern commercialised production of dairy products is perceived to involve violence against cows. In ancient times, dairy animals were well cared for and not killed. According to Jain texts, a śrāvaka (householder) shouldn't consume the four maha-vigai (the four perversions) - wine, flesh, butter and honey; and the five udumbara fruits (the five udumbara trees are Gular, Anjeera, Banyan, Peepal, and Pakar, all belonging to the fig class).[19][20]

Jains make considerable efforts not to injure plants in everyday life as far as possible. Jains only accept such violence inasmuch as it is indispensable for human survival, and there are special instructions for preventing unnecessary violence against plants.[32][33][34] Strict Jains don�t eat root vegetables such as potatoes, onions, roots and tubers, because such root vegetables are considered ananthkay.[20] Ananthkay means one body, but containing infinite lives. A root vegetable such as potato, though from the looks of it is one article, is said to contain infinite lives in it. Also, tiny life forms are injured when the plant is pulled up and because the bulb is seen as a living being, as it is able to sprout.[35][36][37] Also, consumption of most root vegetables involves uprooting and killing the entire plant, whereas consumption of most terrestrial vegetables doesn't kill the plant (it lives on after plucking the vegetables or it was seasonally supposed to wither away anyway). Green vegetables and fruits contain uncountable, but not infinite, lives. Dry beans, lentils, cereals, nuts and seeds contain a countable number of lives and their consumption results in the least destruction of life.

Jain texts declare that a śrāvaka (householder) shouldn't cook or eat at night. According to Acharya Amritchandra's Purushartha Siddhyupaya: "And, how can one who eats food without the light of the sun, albeit a lamp may have been lighted, avoid hiṃsā of minute beings which get into food?"� Puruşārthasiddhyupāya (133)[40]

Jains do not consume fermented foods (beer, wine and other alcohols) to avoid killing of a large number of microorganisms associated with the fermenting process.[42]

So a Jainist monk would commend him for his consumption of lentils but condemn him for eating radishes.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2018 17:29

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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Harrow posted:

What I find interesting her is the prohibition against eggs but the allowance of milk.

Cows, like any other mammal, only lactate when they need to do so to care for their young. That means that for a dairy cow to continue producing milk, that cow needs to continue producing more calves. If those calves are male, they can't produce dairy. These days, a farm doesn't need that many bulls, so the majority of them are raised for slaughter--so even though a cow didn't need to be killed for you to get that cow's milk, the necessity of continuing to produce offspring means that, inevitably, cow slaughter will result from dairy farming. I don't know enough about pre-modern methods, though, and maybe things were different somehow?

Meanwhile, a chicken is going to produce eggs whether or not those eggs are fertilized. They're going to lay those eggs whether they're fertilized or not, and an unfertilized egg will never become a chicken, so there's no harm in taking them and eating them, right?

Bulls are useful to people that don't own tractors and cows are sacred to Hindus. It is flat-out illegal to slaughter cows in much of India, up to life in prison in some states, and that's if you're lucky enough to be arrested instead of beaten to death by an angry mob.

Remember that the Jains are a religion, not just radical utilitarians, so when they talk about milk and eggs they sometimes talk like this:

quote:

Eggs are the progeny of five-sensed beings. Food produced out of eggs is clearly flesh food. Some people argue that a vegetarian egg cannot give birth to a child; it is lifeless. This statement is untrue because it is a product of the sexual organ of the hen. So not only is it impure but it also increases in size after birth and does not become rotten. Therefore it is alive, though it may not possess the capacity to evolve form, but in no way can it be treated as lifeless.

Some people say that the milk of a cow or goat is also part of the body. However there is a vast difference between milk and eggs. This understanding is incorrect because an egg is the progeny of a hen, similarly milk is not the progeny of the cow. By taking milk out of the body of a cow or goat, no harm is done to their lives; whereas by use of the egg the creature inside the egg is killed. If the milk producing cow or goat is not milked at the proper time, agony is caused to it. Having said this, there are still issues about the way dairy cows are treated and their culling as soon as they are past their prime milking days.

Other Jains will argue that it's wrong to eat eggs because it involves stealing from the chicken, but there are definitely Jains that eat eggs precisely for the reason you outlined, especially if they raise the chickens themselves or otherwise know they are treated well. It's like how bringing up honey in a group of vegans will trigger a brawl with the utilitarian vegans defending the consumption of honey and the deontological vegans arguing that it's wrong to steal honey from bees.

Gobbeldygook fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Nov 16, 2018

# ¿ Nov 16, 2018 18:48

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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Doug is an ascetic who doesn't really help anyone, he doesn't deserve to go to the Good Place. If instead of moving to the woods and growing a garden he had gotten a job making 30k a year working at a warehouse and tithed 10% of what he made every year for 50 years to good charities like the Against Malaria Foundation, he'd have saved at least fifty human-life equivalents. Much like how Chidi wasn't a "bad person" per se, Doug is not really a good person, just a neutral person who deserves at best a medium place.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2018 18:05

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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ApplesandOranges posted:

Do monks get Good Place points for their lifestyle? Was Tahani actually on track to getting to The Good Place before that random TV crew discovered her and swung her back into doing good things for corrupt reasons?

A key difference is that Doug isn't just an ascetic, he's an ascetic hermit. He probably gets points for being nice to animals and that's it. Monks in monastery's are just a bunch of dudes who hang out and act excellent to each other, so they have a lot more opportunities to generate points than Doug.

Now, real life Jainist monks certainly believe that an ascetic hermit generates plenty of good points. Digambara monks follow some...interesting rules.

quote:

A Digambara monk is allowed to keep only a feather whisk, a water gourd and scripture with him.

6. irya samiti
A digambara monk doesn't move about in the dark, nor on grass, but only along a path which is much trodden by foot. While moving, he has to observe the ground in front of him, to the extent of four cubits (2 yards), so as to avoid treading over any living being.[12] This samiti (control) is transgressed by:[13]

not being careful enough in looking at the ground in front, and
sight-seeing along the route.

Seven rules or restrictions (niyama)
22. adantdhavan
Not to use tooth powder to clean teeth

23. bhushayan
To rest only on earth or wooden pallet.

24. Asnāna
Non-bathing- A digambara monk doesn't take baths. In his book "Sannyāsa Dharma", Champat Rai Jain writes:

The saint is not allowed to bathe. For that will be fixing his attention on the body. There is no question of dirt or untidiness. He has no time to think of bathing or of cleaning his teeth. He has to prepare himself for the greatest contest in his career, namely, the struggle against Death, and cannot afford to waste his time and opportunity in attending to the beautification and embellishment of his outward person. Nay, he knows fully that death appears only in the form of the physical person which is a compound and, as such, liable by nature to dissolution and disintegration.[18]

25. ekasthiti-bhojana
Taking food in a steady, standing posture.[1]

26. ahara
The monk consume food & water once in a day. He accepts pure food free from forty-six faults (doşa), thirty-two obstructions (antarāya), and fourteen contaminations (maladoşa).[note 1]

27. Keśa-lonch
To pluck hair on the head and face by hand.[2]

28. nāgnya
To renounce clothes.

They believe that they lose points for walking on grass, brushing their teeth, and taking baths. If they're just wrong about the point system, they're hosed.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2018 19:40

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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greententacle posted:

Another aspect of Doug Forcett, the guy you'd think would have the best chance of getting into the Good Place, due to his actually correct beliefs on how the afterlife works, he has no idea what the point value of different actions are, or even if they are positive or negative. He might have wasted his life doing deeds that only get a small amount of points, and missed out on doing things that gain you a lot of points. Like, living as a hermit may have prevented him losing points from bad interactions with people, but he's missed out on all the good he could have done for people as well.

He may even have done things he thought would be gaining him points, that are actually losing him points instead. Like with the kid, Doug assumes he's getting points from 'keeping him happy' by doing whatever he wants. What if instead, he's been losing points because he's been helping that kid grow into a terrible person?

That was my theory, but they appear to have gone in a different direction. The book he was reading in his introductory montage, The Most Good You Can Do, argues exactly that. "Effective altruism is built upon the simple but profound idea that living a fully ethical life involves doing the "most good you can do." Such a life requires an unsentimental view of charitable giving: to be a worthy recipient of our support, an organization must be able to demonstrate that it will do more good with our money or our time than other options open to us." In other words, what Doug should have been doing is making money and giving it to the Against Malaria Foundation so he could save lives rather than wasting his life walking 80 miles to the nearest town to give some company a few bucks.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2018 18:14

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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https://twitter.com/cgallello/status/1083584347175862272

# ¿ Jan 12, 2019 16:34

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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1glitch0 posted:

I didn't think they were thinking Michael was lying, but he's wrong and that's not really the problem that needs to be solved.

Agreed. The AV Club isn't saying Michael is lying, they're saying that Doug Forcett going to the Bad Place isn't a problem and so Michael's epiphany is likely wrong. Doug's gone full hermit so as to minimize sin but in the process denied himself the possibility of doing anything actually good. I would not want there to be more worthless Doug Forcett's wandering off into the woods in search of inner perfection.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2019 05:19

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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Chidi solved the trolley problem.

# ¿ Jan 25, 2019 04:15

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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Ultraklystron posted:

Only thing I could venture (besides a miss by Schur) is that any tribe still isolated isn't making the best use of their time/abilities in a world that could resolve the various preventable issues that isolated tribe would have. Basically, culpability via inaction, which would be another way of underlining the system is broken and unfair in its scoring.

Basically, yes they should get in, but the system is scored impossibly.

The show has so far shied away from utilitarian inaction arguments, but I wouldn't be surprised if they went that direction in season 4; in his intro scene Doug was reading The Most Good You Can Do by Peter Singer which makes the argument that you are morally responsible for all of the lives you could have saved but don't.

The show went for an Evil Butterfly Effect answer. So when a man in an isolated pre-industrial village chops down a tree to make firewood for his family he's losing points for destroying the habitat for the animals that lived there, harming the animals that fed on the animals in that habitat, and releasing CO2 into the atmosphere by burning the tree, and all of his family who eat food cooked over that fire are also losing points because of benefitting from his evil works and they're losing points because the food was not sustainably harvested, etc.

edit: This sort of logic distorts decision making in the real world. You'll occasionally see economic analysis like "Why (environmental initiative) is bad!" and often the way they get there is by putting more and more on the left side of the ledger, so they include the energy to make the tractor the farmer rides, the energy to make the factory where the tractor is made is, etc and voila everything is evil.

Gobbeldygook fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jun 10, 2019

# ¿ Jun 10, 2019 18:39

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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One of the Good Place writers is up for an Emmy in another category
https://twitter.com/meganamram/status/1151160452321333251

# ¿ Jul 16, 2019 18:02

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 20:42

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

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bitprophet posted:

Doesn't that require a TV sub login of some kind? Those apps usually do. The FAQ on NBC's site implies this as well.

I watched the Good Place on the NBC app without putting in any sort of subscription information.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2019 22:59

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Good Place Season 3 - You put the peeps in the chili and you renew for s4