|
Bootcha posted:There is a bit of stuff that I could say about Wing Commander 4. ....but  C'mon, we're new at this (at least keeping a thread going) and we're dying over here! Help us out! Make fun of my lovely flying skills--I'm shocked that hasn't happened yet!
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 01:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 14:15 |
|
|
I could've sworn WC4 is the game where they introduced a gigantic gently caress-off gatling gun with incredible stats but limited ammo, but I don't think you've used it yet?Professor Duck posted:Make fun of my lovely flying skills--I'm shocked that hasn't happened yet! And let's not even talk about the last time I played an "improper" space sim, the only question that has for this is "why aren't you slamming your melee button while holding down the afterburner?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 10:41
|
|
|
The boys haven't yet used the special weapons, was surprised they were still sticking with the piddly lasers when there was an ion scattergun on the Banshee too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 11:28
|
|
|
RangerKarl posted:The boys haven't yet used the special weapons, was surprised they were still sticking with the piddly lasers when there was an ion scattergun on the Banshee too. In one of the videos (maybe one that hasn't come out yet), I tried the scattergun (although that might have been on the avenger, who knows?) and the machine gun (I forget what they call it). They seemed like alright weapons, but for me they don't give you the targeting reticle like the main guns get. You'll see in the next video that goes up that none of that matter anymore 
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 15:24
|
|
|
Fish Noise posted:I could've sworn WC4 is the game where they introduced a gigantic gently caress-off gatling gun with incredible stats but limited ammo, but I don't think you've used it yet? Fair enough. I enjoy the "unpolished" side of LPs (hence why we do things the way we do), but its getting a little...excessive, shall we say?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 15:25
|
|
|
Professor Duck posted:C'mon, we're new at this (at least keeping a thread going) and we're dying over here! Help us out! Make fun of my lovely flying skills--I'm shocked that hasn't happened yet! Alright alright. Spoiler alert for you know what, but LET'S TALK ABOUT WING 4! So Wing 4 was the last project Chris Roberts was directly involved in production to ever see to completion, and it was the last time Roberts had a "boss" in one form or another over him during development. It's not a surprising outcome when you consider the factors. Wing 3 was immensely successful, racking in 10+ million in profit after expenses. So when Roberts wanted to make another Wing Commander game, EA was more than happy to foot the bill. Oh EA? That's right, EA had bought Origin Systems back around 1992, but was mostly hands off until 1995. In 1992 Roberts was still trying to get Strike Commander out the door by the EA stepped in as owner. Anyway, EA saw their portfolio of FMV games like WC and C&C, and at the time they were making bank. Roberts was the test to see if the FMV was the key to this bankroll, and Roberts went hog wild with getting a bigger cast, big sets, and Hollywood sound stage time. All in all, the entire 1996 release cost about $11-12 million, nearly 3 times the budget of 1994's Wing 3 at $4 million. It made back just under $8 million within 3 years of sales. Reportedly, only $5 million in its first year. Now I'll point out, $8-ish million in profit for a mid-ninties space sim, or any space sim thereafter, is just above standard return. So you'd ask what the hell was in that budget bloat that was wasted to cause a loss on the project? Over 8 million in total costs for the FMV segments, alone. Sets, pyrotechnics, stunts, actors, union and labor, and physical film. Wait what physical film? So one of the cost saving measures of Wing 3 was the use of VHS tapes for filming. They're cheap in both stock and equipment needed, and re-recordable. Re-recordable was useful, because according to people at Origin, Roberts had about a 17:1 take-away ratio when it came to shooting scenes, basically needing 17 takes on average for any shot to walk away with the shot we got in the end FMVs. So bad takes during Wing 3 were recorded over. FILM IS NOT RE-RECORDABLE. Documents in the Warren Spector Origin Archives at the University of Texas have indicated that expenses for film stock ALONE cost nearly $1 million. And just so this is clear... THE BUDGET FOR WING 4'S FILM STOCK WAS WORTH OVER A QUARTER OF THE ACTUAL BUDGET FOR THE ACTUAL GAME PORTIONS. So yeah, EA wasn't too happy with the result landing so flat on its face. As Wing 5 gestating before pre-production, EA noticed that Roberts' contract with them was due to expire about the time Wing 5 would be in the middle of production. So rather than give Roberts negotiating leverage in the middle of product development, they wanted to renegotiate the contract sooner rather than later. Regardless of what dialogue was exchanged, Roberts left EA and Origin in 1997. Now most people I've talked to say Roberts didn't like the new terms of the contract, but I'm going to share one account I don't think is particularly true, but is hilarious. quote:Roberts was scared that EA would smother his creativity and keep him pinned down to video games, kinda like the ye olde studio system of Hollywood with their actors, y'know back then until the 1960's. Roberts was so sure of his film and cinema abilities after Wing 4, and the thought of not being able to rub elbows with Hollywood and show them how the new kid in town did things drove him to tears and rage. He was so scared he refused to see any offer from EA no matter the contents, and his paranoia was poured upon a lot of fellow Origin employees, feeding fears that due to Wing 4's disappointing sales that Origin was in danger of shutdown. Rather than let Roberts turn the dev house into a full blow riot, EA simply asked if Roberts wanted to leave now with severance until the end of his current contract. Roberts took the deal and both parties announced the 1997 Roberts departure.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2018 22:21
|
|
|
Bootcha posted:Over 8 million in total costs for the FMV segments, alone. Sets, pyrotechnics, stunts, actors, union and labor, and physical film. Wait what physical film? When buying old Battlestar props just wont cut it... Bootcha posted:THE BUDGET FOR WING 4'S FILM STOCK WAS WORTH OVER A QUARTER OF THE ACTUAL BUDGET FOR THE ACTUAL GAME PORTIONS. Meanwhile QA has no idea why the studio is feverishly trying to kick it out the door without addressing any of the documented bugs. Jesus. We're playing the DVD remaster right? The cutscenes are good... They're not 'a million dollars, just because' good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 01:24
|
|
|
Bootcha posted:
That's all really fascinating! Thanks for throwing that out there!
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 03:05
|
|
|
hoonigan_neil posted:When buying old Battlestar props just wont cut it... If you read the post-mortem, you'll see a lot of bugs that are just signed off on not being fixed by "CR". I wonder if he just was done and wanted it to be done, or if his EA overlords were demanding the release proceed on time quote:We're playing the DVD remaster right? The cutscenes are good... They're not 'a million dollars, just because' good. Yep--we're running the DVD remaster here. The cutscenes are about the only things that a graphical upgrade. Dunno when the DVD version came out, but it looks good for the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 03:10
|
|
|
It looks good until you compare it to what else was running in 1998. Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9 were airing weekly when this got shoved out the door. Roberts had to do seventeen takes to deliver what we get here? Good thing nobody will ever let him do a full movie.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 03:36
|
|
|
How did they even manage to put out Prophecy? It sounds like EA already considered FMV to be a trashfire back then.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 03:56
|
|
|
RearmingStrafbomber posted:It looks good until you compare it to what else was running in 1998. Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9 were airing weekly when this got shoved out the door. Well, "looks good for the time" referring to the video quality, not necessarily the acting. Watching the acting, its clear Chris Roberts doesn't know how to direct. I feel like Tom Wilson is the only person who's "all-in" on their character here--most of the others (especially Mark Hamil) are kinda clueless. Not Dinklebot clueless, but the blank expressions a lot of the time tells the story.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 03:56
|
|
|
RangerKarl posted:How did they even manage to put out Prophecy? It sounds like EA already considered FMV to be a trashfire back then. As far as I understand, Wing 5's FMV budget was slashed back to relative Wing 3 size. You don't see a lot of large pans of sets and dozens of unnecessary extras running about. Ultima was still a money maker, but Spector had left for Ion Storm when Romero poached him. I believe it was Roan that took over the project, who wanted to revamp the flight engine. Also remember that Wing 5 was already a semi-planned project by the time of CR's departure. Red Alert had also just shipped and was making good dosh as well, so EA wasn't quite ready to can the WC franchise just yet. It was this fact that Westwood was doing everything Origin did but better, that doomed Wing Commander in the shorter term (for the decision between WC:O and E&B), while the long term was the decline of space sims in general and the rise of RTSs and FPSs. It can be argued, however, that Wing 4 was the beginning of EA's conservative publisher behavior.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 06:53
|
|
|
I've also heard Prophecy's budget was slashed compared to 4 and it was almost certainly saving FMV costs - mind you I heard this from the context of a WC fanboy being "well how dare ea cut the budget and expect a good return???" when it sounds a lot more like "we can spend a fraction of 4's budget and make the same money" which is a lot more reasonable when you know the utter nonsense that was WC4's production history. I only knew bits and pieces of all that, Bootcha, so thanks for posting it. Prophecy also had the unusual distinction of Secret Ops, a digitally distributed, free and standalone, episodic DLC campaign. Sure, that's not going to surprise anyone now but this was in 1998. it was bad, but at least they tried! it took so long to download over 56k... Psion fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Nov 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 06:59
|
|
|
Okay, so a 17:1 ratio on takes sounds pretty bad. But just for context, what's "normal" on a movie that's being made by like, a relatively competent and experienced director?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 08:54
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Okay, so a 17:1 ratio on takes sounds pretty bad. But just for context, what's "normal" on a movie that's being made by like, a relatively competent and experienced director? The rule of thumb for "competent" directors is between 4-6:1 take away ratio. This is not to say great directors have ignored this ratio rule. Stanley Kubrick went waaaaaaaaaaaaay over, a reported 102:1 take away ratio, during production of "The Shining". Stanley Kubrick was also brilliant and insane, and The Shining is cinematic art and immortal classic. Chris Roberts and Wing 4 are neither. Bootcha fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Nov 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 09:15
|
|
|
Bootcha posted:It was this fact that Westwood was doing everything Origin did but better, that doomed Wing Commander in the shorter term In my head, Chris Roberts is getting a tour of Westwood Studios' FMV studio but keeps asking why everything isn't 15 times the size, where are the film canisters, how can you live on such a shoestring. Then Joe Kucan comes over to see what the ruckus is, and Chris gets scared and runs away..
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2018 09:44
|
|
|
Psion posted:
I think the best comparison here is tie fighter. In tie fighter as long as you're a competent flier you're going to be able to pull off the mission, and maybe a lot of the secondary goals in a first try. However the secret objectives you'll probably need to replay the mission several times to pull off. So what you need to progress through the game is a lower bar than what is needed for the extra mission stuff, which is a much better setup IMO. Wing Commander is Top Gun In Space and is awesome for that, and I have no problems with it being stupid hammy in those aspects. Over time I wonder if CR didn't understand that really, sort of like George Lucas and how far his idea of what Star Wars is differs from basically everyone else. edit: although this gameplay has aged worse than I recall. I wonder how good privateer 2 has held up, I remember making a simple commodity tracking program, though these days throwing that into excel or something would be just as good. ZypherIM fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Nov 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 03:48
|
|
|
TIE Fighter is a good comparison. It provides challenge without being nonsense.ZypherIM posted:edit: although this gameplay has aged worse than I recall. I wonder how good privateer 2 has held up, I remember making a simple commodity tracking program, though these days throwing that into excel or something would be just as good. In my opinion, Privateer 2 aged extremely badly except for the part where you can say "yes I'm playing a video game starring Clive Owen, John Hurt, and Christopher Walken." It sits squarely in that awkward period of mid-90s games which aged horribly ten minutes after release, as opposed to a lot of early-90s classics which are still quite playable. Like, say, Privateer 1.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 08:12
|
|
|
Privateer 2 is, at least, goddamn hilarious.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 14:54
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:Privateer 2 is, at least, goddamn hilarious. I may have to go and screw around with that. I didn't play and Wing Commander games after 4. ....although that might be a while later. I think I've had my fill of space shooters from the '90s for a bit
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 22:46
|
|
|
Professor Duck posted:I may have to go and screw around with that. I didn't play and Wing Commander games after 4. Maybe we'll make me go through that one. Though with the technical difficulties I've been having lately maybe not the best plan. With that in mind, I (finally) bring you part 10, where we learn our lesson and drop the dang difficulty a notch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3tXtvIuNk This went much smoother this time! I wonder why. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 20:57
|
|
|
Bootcha posted:Alright alright. Spoiler alert for you know what, but LET'S TALK ABOUT WING 4! Also double posting because I just want to take a moment to call this post out as  The fact that they used film for this game is absolutely mind boggling, but considering one of the primary design goals seems to have been "justify our insane budget" I guess it makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 21:00
|
|
|
I wish someone would LP Privateer 2. I remember buying it as a kid but I could not get it to run on our computer. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2018 00:47
|
|
|
The ending of Privateer 2 is loving amazing, I bought it off of GOG and it runs pretty great.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2018 11:37
|
|
|
Dreadwroth posted:The ending of Privateer 2 is loving amazing, I bought it off of GOG and it runs pretty great. Really? I was reading some reviews recently of that that were saying it kinda ran like garbage. Perhaps its been updated? Perhaps that'll be a future project
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2018 18:45
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s3ig2rPPIw Finally, a decent ship! With a really garish UI, though that's an improvement IMO. We're approaching the end! Such twists and turns and actually at this point I think it's pretty predictable. Well... predictably unpredictable maybe? It doesn't really surprise anyone that Tolwyn's a dick by this point I think.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2018 03:57
|
|
|
Dewgy posted:The fact that they used film for this game is absolutely mind boggling, but considering one of the primary design goals seems to have been "justify our insane budget" I guess it makes sense. the primary design goal is chris roberts desperately wanted to be a hollywood director, unfortunately. Dewgy posted:Well... predictably unpredictable maybe? It doesn't really surprise anyone that Tolwyn's a dick by this point I think. I think it surprised the guy they had writing Wing Commander tie-in novels. Forstchen? Anyway, he spent like three books building Tolwyn up as some sort of ultimate superhero admiral always willing to make the right call no matter the cost and then oops, actually he's kind of a dick! I do appreciate how the Dragon has The Evil HUD, I hadn't actually thought of that. Psion fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2018 18:42
|
|
|
Psion posted:the primary design goal is chris roberts desperately wanted to be a hollywood director, unfortunately. In fairness to the tie-in guy, Tolwyn's appearance in 2 is basically 'I hate you because I think you're a traitor!' and then later, after having it proven Blair isn't, admitting that's the case and becoming a perfectly reasonable commanding officer who had been operating under a wrong assumption. So the original material had kind of set him up to be a gruff but fairly reasonable guy. WC2 was my first ever space sim so I remember it way better than I should.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2018 18:52
|
|
|
Okay, I feel in the case for journalistic integrity, that I need to walk back a statement I made. Specifically: Bootcha posted:Documents in the Warren Spector Origin Archives at the University of Texas have indicated that expenses for film stock ALONE cost nearly $1 million. And just so this is clear... This statement is in error. I rechecked documents and interview notes, as well as some math average calculations. The expenses of film stock for WC4 DID NOT total nearly $1 million. The reason for this error was a mixup in my notes made about WC4 filming and Freelancer production expenses. The $1 million figure comes from Freelancer. The 17:1 takeaway ratio comes from WC4. The new figure I arrive at, for the film stock cost for WC4 is about $280k. This is how I arrive at this figure: WC4 advertised about 4 hours of FMV sequences. About 30 minutes of that is CGI, split between mission briefing graphics, spaceships in space, and other minor things. I've timed out as much live action FMV scenes, which is about 3 hours and 30 minutes worth of unique footage. WC4 live action scenes were shot in 35mm. The average cost of a new can of 35mm is about $863 bux, and each can has 11 minutes of film at the standard 24 fps. Now for a 90 minute feature length production at about 4:1 takeaways, you'd expect to spend $13,500 if you get recans, but closer to $29k if you use new cans. Documents state film purchases were from film stock manufacturers, not wholesalers, so I'm inclined to believe between that and the price points, WC4 used new cans. So in total WC4 had 210 minutes of live action film in he final cut. Taking into account a 17:1 ratio, that's 3570 minutes that had to be filmed to reach the 210 minute final cut. You need at least 325 cans at 11 minutes each to cover that, well coverage, which would mean the cost to cover that amount of film needed at around $280,475. A lot less egregious a price point than nearly $1 million. I say again the 17:1 ratio is the average that was given to me, not the extreme for one scene or another. I'm certain some shots like Hamill clicking a remote button were done in three takes, and longer complex scenes with multiple coverage angles chewed up more film than others. There are still holes in historical documentation and specific budget accounts. FUD is hard, y'all. Bootcha fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2018 21:10
|
|
|
Bootcha posted:FUD is hard, y'all. drat, this changes everything! I'm gonna go spend $2300 on a ship package right now! Wait, sorry, no. Something came over me all of a sudden. What I mean to say is after a bunch of delays and technical difficulties (the last couple of weeks have been real weird, sorry ) I bring y'alls, THE FINALE!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBIVF06n2WM Strap yourselves in and try not to clip through your seats and die horribly, it's a long one. Also on a personal note I really gotta say this is one of the most anticlimactic "boss battles" I've seen since I got good at the original Assassin's Creed, where you could one-shot the main bad guy in under a second. And that one had a better monologue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 22:49
|
|
|
Dewgy posted:drat, this changes everything! I'm gonna go spend $2300 on a ship package right now! lightweight bootcha probably knows the most any one individual has spent on SC and it's a number I both want to know and very much never want to know, but I'm guessing you need to add a zero, perhaps two as far as Seether goes, WC has never had compellingly hard 'ace' enemies in combat. Jazz, Thrakhath, Jazz again, Thrakhath again...?, Seether, they're just not good the ones where it works are the ones where you're motivated to wreck them and that overrides the "hey that was a joke of a fight" complaint. which is mostly the first time you fight Jazz and that's it imo Psion fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2018 00:21
|
|
|
Psion posted:lightweight Hey man I'm just trying to dip my toes in, no need to go all that crazy to start with.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2018 02:01
|
|
|
Psion posted:as far as Seether goes, WC has never had compellingly hard 'ace' enemies in combat. Jazz, Thrakhath, Jazz again, Thrakhath again...?, Seether, they're just not good That said, screw them tanks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2018 18:26
|
|
|
Fish Noise posted:Do the aces actually even fly better in this, or do they just have infinite missile spew? I honestly can't tell from watching. I don't know specifically but my experience over the entire series is aces tend to use afterburners more and spam missiles. So ... more or less what you thought, yes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2018 21:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 14:15 |
|
|
Fish Noise posted:Do the aces actually even fly better in this, or do they just have infinite missile spew? I honestly can't tell from watching. At least from WC4, they always fire missiles, and they actually fly like they have a brain in terms of not letting you just come and sit right behind them. ...of course, when you turn the difficulty down like I did, everything's made of paper and it doesn't matter Anyway, thank you guys for hanging around! I've enjoyed getting to go through this again, and doing it for an audience has been fun! Here are my last thoughts about WC4: After finishing up the ending, I have to say that games like this have an incredibly hard time holding up in any modern capacity. Most of the "interactive movie" genre seems far too light on substantial and meaningful gameplay compared to anything that's produced now, or even in the last 5 years. I can remember playing through FFX for the first time and getting frustrated every time that I'd walk ten feet and there was another cutscene, and that was a few years after the heyday of the IM genre. Not for nothing, it was a great way to get around the limitation of the hardware of the time. It was a real way to engage a meaningful story without the ability to use those characters in a lot of ways that game engines wouldn't really allow for, or couldn't be done well. It definitely was successful (look at 7th guest--one of the biggest pushes for people to buy CD-ROM drives at the time. Also *Shameless plug* you can check out 7th guest at out channel!), to the point that (humorously, in retrospect) one of the gaming magazines in the post-mortem document I linked to has a insert article about taking interactive movies seriously. The nostalgia factor was fun, and it was kinda enjoyable for a while. The frustration factor really ruined things for me, though. All in all, I'm kinda glad to be done with it. That's it! Hope you'll join us for another LP thread sometime in the future!
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2018 21:43
|
|