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paragon1 posted:Are we seriously calling all soft sci-fi psuedo science now? Is that a thing people have seriously decided to do? It's a nerd spit-balling some bullshit to her dumb friend. It's pseudoscience that she's using to rationalise magic until proven otherwise. El Burbo posted:She's definitely making all this up as she goes along. sounds smart to sakuta though so he believes it.
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Nov 8, 2018 20:04
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Yeah there's no indication that her explanations are correct and they DEFINITELY don't make any sense but they still annoy me because even when I was a nerd in high school I knew how dumb that would sound.
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Nov 8, 2018 20:51
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Nov 8, 2018 21:39
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I'll accept the dumb explanation because "Quantum Butt Entanglement" is loving hilarious.
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Nov 8, 2018 21:42
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"Hey I'm time travelling or something, what's up with that?" "You're crazy." "No give me an answer that makes me think I'm not crazy." "Maxwell's demon, bich" Goon: WHAT A DUMB loving EXPLANATION
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Nov 8, 2018 21:43
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I don't care how dumb the explanation is, because it's loving magic and it can be whatever the writer wants. I just think it makes labcoat girl seem real dumb and I assume the writer wants me to like her.
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Nov 9, 2018 00:16
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i can normally tolerate terms being used incorrectly but for this show it really just feels egregious overall. still love the show but god
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Nov 9, 2018 00:47
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Nov 9, 2018 04:13
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I don't know much about this kind of thing so it doesn't really bug me and, hell, I'm glad.
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Nov 9, 2018 04:16
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I hope some of you never ever pay money for a Marvel movie because you're gonna have a really fuckin' bad time.
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Nov 9, 2018 04:23
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Just like technobabble from Star Trek it's primarily annoying when it's a time sink. This show and its characters are good enough that we don't need to babble about half understood physics concepts for 2 minutes straight. It's all magical plot nonsense anyways, so just compress it down to a sentence or two max. They actually did a pretty good job with the butt entanglement scene, it was fast, silly, and served its purpose. The earlier pseudoscience scenes dragged a lot longer than they needed to though.
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Nov 9, 2018 16:53
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Subvisual Haze posted:Just like technobabble from Star Trek it's primarily annoying when it's a time sink. This show and its characters are good enough that we don't need to babble about half understood physics concepts for 2 minutes straight. It's all magical plot nonsense anyways, so just compress it down to a sentence or two max. They actually did a pretty good job with the butt entanglement scene, it was fast, silly, and served its purpose. The earlier pseudoscience scenes dragged a lot longer than they needed to though. 100% disagree. The pseudoscience scenes haven't dragged on, because none of it is pseudoscience. Everything they have talked about has been legit base-level physics one-step above high school level, and I feel they've said exactly as much as they need to to get the point across without doing a doctorate level dive into the subjects, all while setting up the metaphorical comparison to the plot points. It's been done well.
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Nov 9, 2018 19:23
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I think it would have worked better if they just said "it's magic". I like the explanation that it's the "best highschoolers can do", that's pretty rational. But I wouldn't call them solid scientific principles, more like borrowing the names we invented for things. Which is not wrong, the word "rocket" was not made up by a rocket scientist. Schrödinger's cat was a metaphor invented by Schrödinger to illustrate how dumb wave-particle duality was, that something magically changed when you look at it. And he was right. We don't observe particles the same way one observes a cat. We have to exert a force on it, which affects it and alters it's behavior, thereby killing the "cat". Still ultimately, it is a rational approach. paragon1 posted:I hope some of you never ever pay money for a Marvel movie because you're gonna have a really fuckin' bad time. Suspension of disbelief varies? Like if the anime introduces someone who can fly "because of the Coriolis effect" or time-travel "due to Daylight Savings Time", it will be hella dumber than a guy wearing an iron suit.
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Nov 9, 2018 21:21
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KomeradeCanadian posted:But I wouldn't call them solid scientific principles, We are literally building computers right now based on these quantum principles. The race to the first universal quantum computer is coming to a close very soon, and getting them to the consumer level is a hop skip and jump away. Like what is so wrong about high school kids talking about tech and science at a high school level.
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Nov 9, 2018 21:31
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Yeah, areas like quantum physics and theoretical chemistry are well-established fields. I wouldn’t call it pseudoscience  The basic theories in the show have been explained suitably enough at a high-school level. It’s also kinda neat to see the characters try to rationalize what’s happening, instead of throwing their hands up in the air and being “lol idk, magic”.What’s the main issue people are having here? Is it that Futaba just sounds too pretentious?
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Nov 9, 2018 22:05
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AnacondaHL posted:We are literally building computers right now based on these quantum principles. The race to the first universal quantum computer is coming to a close very soon, and getting them to the consumer level is a hop skip and jump away. They're not using Laplace's Demon plugged into a box with a cat and poison to code it. Both of these "quantum principles" are thought experiments, like Plato's Cave? And one, as I posted, the cat, is specifically written to show the nonsense logic proposed by the theory. At the time, rational, adult scientists decided that it was the most reasonable explanation that an electron stopped behaving like a wave when you looked at it, with your eye. Like it turned shy. So he wrote about the zombie cat. Nondevor posted:Yeah, areas like quantum physics and theoretical chemistry are well-established fields. I wouldn’t call it pseudoscience Yeea maybe I was a little arrogant saying "they should have called it magic". I like Futaba. It's just such a far field explanation that it shakes my disbelief.
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Nov 9, 2018 22:16
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I like Futaba too, but right now she just feels like a version of Tsubasa Hanekawa that I don't like as much. I know that reads a bit unfair, it's just that I've seen this type of character before and while I like her style, so far I'm not getting much out of her. Also she's not voiced by Yui Horie, but at this point I'm just being a nitpick-y jerk. 
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Nov 9, 2018 22:23
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KomeradeCanadian posted:They're not using Laplace's Demon plugged into a box with a cat and poison to code it. Yeah agreed. The whole point of schrodinger's cat is that large scale things like people or cats do not work like really small scale particles. Pseudoscience is the wrong word. This is just pop science. Monogatari had Japanese myths as flavour for the explanations behind the weird happenings, right? This is same thing but with thought experiments as flavour instead of myths. The meaning behind the thought experiment is discarded, because the anime only needs the story.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:08
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Nondevor posted:Yeah, areas like quantum physics and theoretical chemistry are well-established fields. I wouldn’t call it pseudoscience It's kind of fingernails on the chalkboard if you're knowledgeable about the concepts being referenced. They're tortured analogies that just sound intelligent on the surface level but fall apart under the barest scrutiny. You can argue that this is "in character" with a high school girl's knowledge base, but then the question becomes what useful purpose does it then serve in the narrative? I thought this Extra Credits video on Technobabble did a pretty good job of explaining the issue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_F-Wsvj1t0&vl=
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Nov 9, 2018 23:12
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If your show can't literally invent time travel and explain it to the audience then its honestly a waste of my goddamn time.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:17
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This is definitely pseudoscience because the concepts are being used in exactly the same way New Age medicine would say that quantum mechanics explains how their magical chakra rock cures cancer. This is amost the very definition of pseudoscience: magical thinking dressed up in scientific sounding language.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:48
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No, it isn't. You're getting worked up over nothing.
paragon1 fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 23:49
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Clarste posted:This is definitely pseudoscience because the concepts are being used in exactly the same way New Age medicine would say that quantum mechanics explains how their magical chakra rock cures cancer. This is amost the very definition of pseudoscience: magical thinking dressed up in scientific sounding language. Kinda, but their "machical chakra rocks" are real. It's just that no one in the greater scientific community observed it, or has a more rational explanation for time travel or disappearing from reality, so we're reliant on a highschooler's understanding.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:53
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*extremely serious goon voice* My extremely high IQ tells me this magical realism light novel adaptation I claim to enjoy and Herbalife marketing are exactly the same. Now excuse me, I must smash myself in the nuts with my hardback copy of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, as I do every night.
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Nov 10, 2018 00:00
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KomeradeCanadian posted:Kinda, but their "machical chakra rocks" are real. It's just that no one in the greater scientific community observed it, or has a more rational explanation for time travel or disappearing from reality, so we're reliant on a highschooler's understanding. Sure, but this high schooler neither understands quantum mechanics OR how what she's trying to describe actually works. She's just throwing out scientific jargon in lieu of an explanation. IE she's using pseudoscience. Not to say she'd have to do this, but a much more scientifically minded approach would be for her to say "I don't have any loving idea how this works or even if you're telling the truth, but if it's true we should be able to experiment on it. Help me come up with some experiments to run." Edit: I'm not asking for all the characters to behave perfectly rationally, I'm just saying I think Futaba sounds like an idiot. If she's suposed to then fine, otherwise it's bad writing. Clarste fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 00:00
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Clarste posted:Sure, but this high schooler neither understands quantum mechanics OR how what she's trying to describe actually works. She's just throwing out scientific jargon in lieu of an explanation. IE she's using pseudoscience. Maybe she is a bit of narrator's self-injection. I hope she finds a bigger arc, like with Sakuta's bro. Now that I think about it, we almost always see her in a lab coat. Oh god, she's Dennis Nerdy. paragon1 posted:words 
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Nov 10, 2018 00:10
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paragon1 posted:*extremely serious goon voice* My extremely high IQ tells me this magical realism light novel adaptation I claim to enjoy and Herbalife marketing are exactly the same. You uh okay? We're pointing out how the words are being used in a bullshit manner. The show is still good but I think we can still mention our annoyances
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Nov 10, 2018 00:38
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paragon1 posted:*extremely serious goon voice* My extremely high IQ tells me this magical realism light novel adaptation I claim to enjoy and Herbalife marketing are exactly the same. good thing you're rushing to the defense of this anime, us fans across the world salute you for your service
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Nov 10, 2018 00:39
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It's a poo poo criticism taken to an absurd length. If any term is being used in a bullshit manner here it's "psuedoscience" being ascribed to a character introducing a classic thought experiment to the audience to explain the conceit of the paranormal happenings of the show. It doesn't loving matter if that's not how the science actually works in real life. That's how it works in the show. What matters is that the audience has been clued in on how the weird thing happening will be interacting with the characters.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:13
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All of best girl Futaba's analogies for what is happening are spot on and match the situations very well. Dinkelberg's Cat = Mai, Maxwell's Demon = Koga, Quantum Butt Entanglement = Koga+Sakuta. They all fit their situations on multiple levels, so I'm not sure what people's problems with them are.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:17
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That assumes that what she offers is in fact an explanation of some kind, and it isn't. She makes these analogies but they don't actually further the characters' understanding of the phenomenon in any way, nor do they help the audience. The phenomenon works the way it does because it does, and then she throws some pseudoscience on top of it as a garnish.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:20
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I'm gonna let analogy chat run until next week, but considering that second-best girl Futaba's arc is next (I believe), I'm willing to lock the thread for a bit if things get too heated.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:26
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Clarste posted:The phenomenon works the way it does because it does, and then she throws some pseudoscience on top of it as a garnish. Perhaps the same could be said of all Science.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:27
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Clarste posted:That assumes that what she offers is in fact an explanation of some kind, and it isn't. She makes these analogies but they don't actually further the characters' understanding of the phenomenon in any way, nor do they help the audience. The phenomenon works the way it does because it does, and then she throws some pseudoscience on top of it as a garnish. Except it actually does offer and explanation, it does help both, and it's not psuedoscience because that's not what pseudoscience is.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:30
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Schroedingers cat, even the version she gave in the anime, says nothing about people disappearing when people ignore them. She could've just said "when a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?" and it would've been both clearer and more concise. And just as much of an explanation. She used the cat experiment simply to provide a fake veneer of science to her magical thinking, in exactly the same way hucksters who sell fake medicine do. Maybe that's not exactly your definition of pseudoscience and I don't care to argue semantics, but it's sure as hell not an explanation.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:34
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I mean I get that she's a nerd who drinks out of beakers in the chemistry lab, so she wants to use sciency metaphors. But that makes her a dumb nerd misusing sciency metaphors, not someone explaining actually how the magic works.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:38
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paragon1 posted:
Just stop dude. Not a single person here hates the show. I think some of their explanations are a bit silly or misuse science but it's still in my top 5 this year. That said, "that's how it works in the show" is not a solid argument. They aren't inventing Spiral Energy. They're taking real world concepts and reattaching them to magical thinking. If Strike Witches tries to feed me Bernoulli's Principle to justify them wearing pantsu, I am allowed to say "that is stupid" I can like the show, and think parts of it are stupid.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:41
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How about a better thought: do you think we're getting a third reality warper next arc?
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Nov 10, 2018 01:42
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Butt entanglement was hilarious though.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:43
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Clarste posted:Butt entanglement was hilarious though. Yeah that was perfect. I'm looking forward to seeing what weird poo poo happens with science girl and her crush (and what she explains it with).
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Nov 10, 2018 01:50
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