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Willie Tomg posted:near as i can tell so far, The Authoritarians is basically what PJ is trying to write, almost entirely, but Just saw your edit that clarified your meaning here and I want to disagree with something. My work doesn't focus in any way shape or form on the specific rationalizations of any Narrativist individual or group. The specifics of a given inner or outer narrative are pretty much irrelevant, what really matters is the four tiered structure of the grand narrative. Inner narratives will always have precisely that four tiered structure and outer narratives will always be designed to gradually guide a non-Narrativist into adopting some form of that four-tiered belief structure. The specifics of the narratives themselves don't really matter very much. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 23:03 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 22:55
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Willie Tomg posted:near as i can tell so far, The Authoritarians is basically what PJ is trying to write, almost entirely, but What PJ is getting at is a worldview which gives rise to that behaviour which Altermeyer's classification doesn't explain very well, but is a starting point. Karen Stenner wrote The Authoritarian Dynamic, a difficult read for a non-academic but extremely carefully argued thesis that authoritarianism is an expression of a reactive worldview that cannot tolerate social diversity. She explains it more simply in this article. It's pretty much a definition of "triggered".
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Oct 23, 2018 23:20
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holy gently caress this is prolix as gently caress
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Oct 23, 2018 23:27
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sut
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Oct 23, 2018 23:28
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ewe2 posted:What PJ is getting at is a worldview which gives rise to that behaviour which Altermeyer's classification doesn't explain very well, but is a starting point. Karen Stenner wrote The Authoritarian Dynamic, a difficult read for a non-academic but extremely carefully argued thesis that authoritarianism is an expression of a reactive worldview that cannot tolerate social diversity. She explains it more simply in this article. It's pretty much a definition of "triggered". *worldview here meaning the sum total of how various subconscious thought processes shape the way that waking consciousness is experienced by an individual.
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Oct 23, 2018 23:50
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Prester Jane posted:There seems to be a rather significant difference between my own work and the academic world: the academic world seems to view behavior and decisions as ultimately being driven by beliefs. Whereas in my work behavior and decisions are driven by worldview* first and foremost and beliefs are structured in such a way to provide a socially acceptable justification for the individual's behavior and decisions. I think Stenner is trying to get at the worldview from strictly empirical data. Are you familiar with the black box concept of deduction? To get at something you cannot see the internal workings of, it can be useful to see what goes into it and out of it and deduce its internals that way. Just knowing where its inputs come from and where they go to is useful, that's the concept behind signals intelligence. Stenner is a lot more careful than Altermeyer about theories of beliefs. Her key survey asked questions about child-rearing, because she thought that was sufficiently universal to illuminate a wide spectrum of responses to analyse. But she goes no further than to assert what she did in that article albeit more academically, much of the picture is still incomplete. I'd like to read that book of essays, I didn't know she was doing more survey work until today.
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Oct 24, 2018 00:43
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Prester Jane posted:Reading through both that article and the Altmeyer blog that was posted earlier there is one thing that just occurred to me. There seems to be a rather significant difference between my own work and the academic world: the academic world seems to view behavior and decisions as ultimately being driven by beliefs. Whereas in my work behavior and decisions are driven by worldview* first and foremost and beliefs are structured in such a way to provide a socially acceptable justification for the individual's behavior and decisions. analysis of purely internal phenomena is very out of vogue and has been for decades, because it is much less amenable to quantitative analysis than speech and behavior. learning theory is probably the branch of psychology most closely aligned with your approach - since learning is an internal phenomenon, it is forced to grapple with mental structures in a way that computationalist psychology tends to avoid. sociology also focuses on external behavior, and your work is at the intersection of the two. your approach is what i would call old-school, pre-computationalist cognitivist, applied in a sociological context. you place emphasis on the arrangement of knowledge - how a mental structure, once formed, shapes and constrains the further acquisition of knowledge (in a broad sense - not just factual knowledge), as well as how that new knowledge is integrated into that mental structure. the bypasses are perhaps best understood, within this sort of framework, as a sort of key to the inner sanctum of the narrativist's mental structure - almost any knowledge, unless it is extremely discordant, can be attached to the core, the story, through the use of a bypass. some people are not vulnerable to this, because not all minds have a strong central "core" like that. i would venture to say that most don't. to me, that's why the existence of a central narrative is the consistent linking trait that connects the clusters - without the narrative, bypass logic bounces off the mind because it doesn't fit very well into a typical mental structure. i don't know that i agree with you that bypasses create narrativists, except perhaps in childhood by hampering the development of a normal distributed mind - it seems to me that in adults there must be a latent vulnerability, an existing "little narrative", for the bypass logic to cultivate into a grand narrative
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Oct 24, 2018 02:11
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Unzip and Attack posted:There is of course some truth to this, but on the other hand there is a sizable portion of the American populace that has been converted and militarized over the last 20 or so years by Rightwing media. We can point to 9/11, Fox News, AM talk radio, internet community (as a concept), the Great Recession, intensifying wealth inequality, or all of these, but everyone knows a few people who were largely apolitical that have become goose-steppers in that time period. I don't buy the "they were always Nazis" argument, especially given that many of these people are very young. This post needs more love for a new page. Propaganda works. Anyone have a “power of nightmares” link handy?
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Oct 24, 2018 03:23
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Paolomania posted:This post needs more love for a new page. Propaganda works. Anyone have a “power of nightmares” link handy? Thanks. A really interesting example of this from my own experience is an old Army buddy of mine. We did a tour together in Iraq in '04 and he was as against the Iraq War as I was and a pretty open Kerry supporter (not easy to be at that time). He was the first person I met in the Army who said gay people should be allowed to serve openly and he wasn't shy about that opinion. Anyway, we drifted apart after he transferred to another unit and when I reconnected with him in 2012 he was a rabid Tea Partier. He married into a super conservative family and his new unit is in Texas so he hangs out all day with good ole boys, watching Fox News and sharing "Ben Shapiro DEMOLISHES _____" videos on facebook. Sad to see it happen to a person I respected so much. It's stories like these that make what PJ is saying so compelling. I've watched it happen firsthand.
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Oct 24, 2018 04:08
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Paolomania posted:This post needs more love for a new page. Propaganda works. Anyone have a “power of nightmares” link handy? This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg
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Oct 24, 2018 05:35
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https://mobile.twitter.com/BillClin...%3D5789%23pti33
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Oct 24, 2018 14:09
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Willie Tomg posted:near as i can tell so far, The Authoritarians is basically what PJ is trying to write, almost entirely, but
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Oct 24, 2018 15:35
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Halloween Jack posted:A big problem I have with Altemeyer is that his definitions of what constitutes left-wing and right-wing thought are...pretty much absent. It's just relative to the always-slippery North American context. He mentions at one point that it’s a choice of his made to distinguish his subject from the larger body of more classic work made to address the authoritarians of the 20th century who claimed socialism or left politics.
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Oct 24, 2018 16:44
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https://mobile.twitter.com/frankgaf...genumber%3D5801 https://mobile.twitter.com/CNN/stat...genumber%3D5801 https://mobile.twitter.com/willsomm...genumber%3D5803 https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidKli...genumber%3D5803 https://mobile.twitter.com/RawStory...23post489171468 Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 18:20 on Oct 24, 2018 |
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Oct 24, 2018 18:06
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The Outer Narrative on this one sure came together pretty damned fast. https://mobile.twitter.com/KrangTNelson/status/1055142640809897985
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Oct 24, 2018 18:25
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Prester Jane posted:The Outer Narrative on this one sure came together pretty damned fast. Compare/contrast the difference between actual reporting and pandering/fearmongering: https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/1055182375401926656 https://twitter.com/PamelaGeller/status/1055178389525487616 So in order to pull this off, you have to have a whole bunch of incorrect information, including but not limited to DWS and Eric Holder mattering in 2018, John Brenan working for CNN (he works for MSNBC), not knowing basic spelling and other fact checking, etc, etc, etc. The only wingnut circle I know of that still gives a poo poo about DWS and Eric Holder would be the Qult. Someone impersonating a Qultist would have to have a pretty non-trivial understanding of their ever-shifting lowercase-narrative in order to pull off a false flag. We're probably dealing with a true believer. I wonder if anyone will die before this idiot is caught. McGlockenshire has issued a correction as of 21:47 on Oct 24, 2018 |
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Oct 24, 2018 21:38
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like i was saying two days agoBrutalistMcDonalds posted:now is a good time for this thread Baloogan posted:holy gently caress this is prolix as gently caress
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Oct 24, 2018 21:53
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My money is on a Qultist as well. Everything about this smacks of a Narrativist who has incorporated a pretty substantial amount of Qanon material into their Inner Narrative. I also think there is a pretty decent chance that this will turn out to be the work of a small Narrativist group, considering the number of targets and the geographical separation between where some of the packages were either delivered or entered into the Postal system. McGlockenshire posted:
I'm pretty optimistic on that front, particularly if this turns out to be the work of a group and not just an individual. Postal inspectors are like, what the FBI fancies itself has in terms of running a ruthlessly effective bureaucratic machine. Like, given the option I'd much rather have a local prosecutor investigating me for something than a Postal Inspector investigating me for something.
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Oct 24, 2018 21:56
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:
While it's very far from being my worst character flaw- afflicting the comfortable is definitely my heroin.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:05
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Speaking of D&D there is a widespread attitude over there that a significant economic crash would be beneficial because it would result in the American public turning against Trump. (The Trump thread in particular loves cheering on any negative economic news) I Very very very strongly disagree with this notion, largely based on my experiences as a barely-employed chud during the 2008 economic crash. I believe that if there's some sort of widespread economic malaise that dramatically increases unemployment, it will not be blamed on the Republicans. (Normally the party in-charge takes credit for the economy good or ill, but that norm will not survive in the Trump era any more than any other norm has.) maybe if we had some fire breathing Democratic Leadership figures who knew how to fight a narrative or things would be different, but at present I just don't expect the mainstream media and/or democrats to successfully counter whatever narrative the chuds put out about Democrats being at fault for any economic collapse. I believe that a substantial increase in unemployment will have the result of first dramatically increasing the viciousness and prevalence of the social media culture wars- because you're going to have a bunch of unemployed people who have nothing better to do than spend all day on social media. A whole lot of these people will be either Narrativists, or people being converted to Narrativism. Secondly I believe a surge in unemployment will, after a delay of a few months, result in a dramatic increase in the amount of alt right groups and individuals appearing at violent rallies. Antifa has been extremely successful in using doxxing and the certainty of being met with resistance to keep the majority of people sympathetic to the violent alt-right from getting publicly involved. The thing about cowards is they are never in a rush to risk everything they have. The odd thing about cowards though is if a large enough group of them feels they have nothing left to lose- then a whole bunch of them can suddenly become very brave individuals. Now given these circumstances if someone involved with Antifa was to read this thread then I would offer the suggestion that it might be worthwhile to start thinking ahead at this juncture as to having some sort of prepared and coordinated response for 1.) the escalation in the social media culture wars, and then 2.) the later escalation in street-level alt-right violence. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 22:30 on Oct 24, 2018 |
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Oct 24, 2018 22:27
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One of the bombs has what appears to be a printed-out meme with the reporter’s face and an isis flag rubberbanded to it. Given the qanon fixation on this reporter as a secret isis member and given the fact that only a boomer would print out a meme to send through the mail, this being a qanon thing looks pretty likely. It’s just missing a minions guy.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:39
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BOOSness Hammocks posted:One of the bombs has what appears to be a printed-out meme with the reporter’s face and an isis flag rubberbanded to it. Given the qanon fixation on this reporter as a secret isis member and given the fact that only a boomer would print out a meme to send through the mail, this being a qanon thing looks pretty likely. It’s just missing a minions guy. I don't have it handy but there's a tweet going around that argues pretty strongly that the Isis flag is actually a "Git'R'Done" recheck parody thingy. Which if true makes this almost certainly a boomer chud.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:52
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welp https://twitter.com/kevinsidonohoe/status/1055210613847347205
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Oct 24, 2018 23:10
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This is some interesting, heady stuff. At risk of sounding a bit dim, would there be any way we could get a brief glossary of terms for those of us who weren't following the old thread? When everyone is throwing around "narrativist", capital-N "Narrative", "structuralist", "cooperator", etc, it might be good if we could all grasp precisely what is meant by those terms in the context of this thread.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:13
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I have no idea how this is all going to end- but if I were to be honest I would have to admit that I do not think we are presently on the path for the good ending.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:13
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General Dog posted:This is some interesting, heady stuff. At risk of sounding a bit dim, would there be any way we could get a brief glossary of terms for those of us who weren't following the old thread? When everyone is throwing around "narrativist", capital-N "Narrative", "structuralist", "cooperator", etc, it might be good if we could all grasp precisely what is meant by those terms in the context of this thread. I have a website that explains the vast majority of these terms: Prester's Perspective.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:15
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Prester Jane posted:My money is on a Qultist as well. Everything about this smacks of a Narrativist who has incorporated a pretty substantial amount of Qanon material into their Inner Narrative. You're probably right, but given the incompetence on display in the bomb design, delivery to target, and spelling on the labels I suspect it's actually Don Jr.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:38
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I slept in today, because it's been about two weeks since I've had more than 3-4 hours of uninterrupted sleep, and it felt really great. when I read the news, I actually checked the date to make sure I didn't sleep like a week, because holy poo poo are the narratives about this coming out hot and fast. I feel like this cluster of takes woulda taken a week to get rolling back in 2014, a month in the 00s, and the better part of a year in the 90s
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Oct 25, 2018 00:26
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Peanut Butler posted:I slept in today, because it's been about two weeks since I've had more than 3-4 hours of uninterrupted sleep, and it felt really great. I fully agree. While normally you expect to see a fair amount of acceleration in the speed at which narratives are deployed as a consequence of the ongoing narrative convergence, I believe that a variety of corporate and political actors are currently figuring out how to use social media to both manipulate and create Narrativists. The combination of these two factors is that out of narratives are being formed very quickly. So I've decided to start going through the old thread and digging up some of the more interesting posts to help catch people up on this discussion. The following post was written on March 28th 2015, several months before Trump descended the escalator. At the time I was only thinking as far ahead as the 2016 election, but I'd argue that the basic pattern outlined in this post has held extremely true post Trump's election. At the time the term "Deep State" had not yet entered the public consciousness, but I would suggest that you replace "Federal government" with Deep State when reading the following post. (I have lightly edited the post to reflect updated terminology) Prester Jane posted:I think so, yes. At least, once I have been able to fully articulate my ideas, I think they predict trends fairly well. Let us consider for a moment "Narrative Convergence" and the Inner Narrative of several easily identified Narrativist group clusters. (Obviously there are exceptions to every group cluster, these are broad trends, not perfect descriptions of every single person involved in such groups.) I feel that once the Inner Narrative's of various groups are understood it becomes very easy to see where common ground will be found between these groups. Through the Compaction Cycle as well as the need for allies, alliances will be forged as Narrative's Converge around the outlines of the Grand Narrative.
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Oct 25, 2018 00:40
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https://mobile.twitter.com/atrupar/...genumber%3D5821
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Oct 25, 2018 00:46
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Prester Jane posted:I don't have it handy but there's a tweet going around that argues pretty strongly that the Isis flag is actually a "Git'R'Done" recheck parody thingy. Which if true makes this almost certainly a boomer chud. https://twitter.com/spdustin/status/1055248401011482630
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Oct 25, 2018 01:10
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The narrative keeps on narrativing! https://twitter.com/MW_Unrest/status/1055245822546317317 https://twitter.com/IceColdLyfe/status/1055214924069326848 staticman has issued a correction as of 07:03 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 06:56
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I can't get over that being real. quote:A senior law enforcement official said that the image contained on the Brennan device that appears to be an ISIS flag is in fact a mocking parody of it. The official confirmed that the words “Get Er Done” were on the device. To save everyone else the time diving down this hole: The sticker maker's site is basically freep poo poo, only it's so brazen and over the top that he wouldn't be welcome on freep. His Disqus profile shows him to be very, very Christian, so it's safe to assume that he's an old chud instead of a young chud. His site has two image galleries, one stretching back to 2010 or so. It's full of crude humor and lots and lots and lot of racial stereotypes for black women, mostly Michelle Obama and Maxine Waters. I'm gonna double down on the Qultist hypothesis for the bomber. People running in the sticker maker's group are the main demographic targets, so the use of something he created by them would fit. The sticker maker is currently selling a "MAGA" stamp, which makes the likelihood of him previously selling stickers to be pretty high. That also suggests that there are ecommerce records somewhere, perhaps even shipping addresses. I smell a subpoena in Scooter Van Neuter's future. Also, goddamn that is a great posting name. Somehow I think the bomber didn't quite think this all the way through. Why the hell would you put something so amazingly traceable into your bomb? Why would you not assume it'd get intercepted? What kind of person are we actually dealing with, that could put together and ship multiple bombs and yet not understand opsec? Or spelling?
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Oct 25, 2018 08:15
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McGlockenshire posted:
Someone who assumes that they are a hero with an important destiny and that their actions are going to change the world- therefore they never really much contemplated what would happen if their plan either went awry or completely failed. Also pipe bombs aren't the most complicated thing in the world to construct, many years back I knew a couple of beers swilling rednecks who had a hobby of constructing pipe bombs and setting them off on their back woods property. https://mobile.twitter.com/mmfa/sta...genumber%3D5829 Dana Loesch posted:In actuality, it is this group that will be doing the intimidating. They’ll be intimidating law-abiding gun owners legally carrying their firearms by potentially sending the police after people who are doing nothing more than exercising their constitutionally protected rights. It’s a moderate, soft form of swatting. What’s astounding about this quote from Volsky is that he cites the troubling rhetoric in politics these days and then thinks the best answer to the potential for danger is to intimidate those individuals who may be carrying a weapon explicitly to protect themselves given how insane things have gotten. And by the way all of that insanity, all of the out of control anger and screaming that we’ve seen on television and at protests in this country, those weren’t law-abiding gun owners. Those were progressives, anti-gun progressives to be exact. I’m not suggesting that the political right is free of their own troublemakers but to pretend that anyone on the right has done anything close to a Bernie bro shooting up a congressional ball field or throwing boulders through someone else's window or attacking and assaulting individuals with different campaigns if they think that it isn’t unbalanced or predominately one sided, I think they need to pay better attention to the news. And if god forbid some unhinged maniac with an illegally possessed firearm were to show up at a polling location, something tells me a lot of people would be grateful that one of those law-abiding gun owners was there. It's getting really really really obvious just how blatantly fascist the NRA is becoming. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 17:48 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 09:11
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This video is a really cool and quick little demonstration of how Narrativism is being weaponized by corporate and political actors. In particular this video shows how people like Mike Cernovich are fairly self-aware that they're manipulating a particular type of psychology; and further this video shows that Cernovich is very aware that the particular type of psychology is manipulating is not impacted by the truth but but I like how information is presented and how concepts are connected to each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7bkyWV_PU8 edit: The video in this tweet is amazing! Mike Cernovich has not only intuited what an outer narrative is and how to use it, he also refers to it as "The Narrative". He even capitalizes the word "Narrative" like I do in a wide variety of his other videos where he is discussing this concept. https://mobile.twitter.com/vicbergeriv/status/1032004771547373573?lang=en Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 15:19 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 15:09
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Prester Jane posted:Someone who assumes that they are a hero with an important destiny and that their actions are going to change the world- therefore they never really much contemplated what would happen if their plan either went awry or completely failed. wait, sorry, throwing boulders? Geeze, the antifa supersolider program is going well.
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Oct 25, 2018 17:20
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T-man posted:wait, sorry, throwing boulders? Geeze, the antifa supersolider program is going well. Just wait until you're left quivering in urine-soaked fear at the terror of  BIKE LOCKS!!!
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Oct 25, 2018 17:34
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https://mobile.twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1055270879897284608
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Oct 25, 2018 17:54
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So glad there's this thread. https://twitter.com/Muscle_Husband/status/1055472484248678400
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Oct 25, 2018 19:36
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Cooperates don't want to upset their status quo. Who does? I'm a middle-aged trans woman married to a cis woman with a raft of health problems. I have a job that pays just enough to cover our bills. My employer finally offered insurance that didn't explicitly exclude trans-related coverage on 2017. I'm a target but damned if I'm gonna stick my neck out. I have too much to lose. I vote. That's it. If the tide turns too far, then I'm hosed.
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