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Jazerus posted:a narrativist might have a few silos for things they understand very well - a narrativist electrical engineer is probably not going to view electric circuit behavior through the lens of their story - but life in general just blends together into the story On the other hand systematic thought is systematic thought. If one's narrative is about humanity's relationship with symbol and the Real, one might view the nature of models like EE through the lens of thier story.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:12
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And historically there have been cults that formed around every drat thing one think of. Is a video game weirder than sexy geometry? They all promise to let one know who one is and ones place in the universe.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:51
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BOOSness Hammocks posted:Something’s different, and I don’t see how it can be tied up in the psychology of white boomers who were here the whole time. The larger story is breaking down. People are opting to participate in other stories.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:56
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For fun replace "framework" with "narrative" in Helsing's post about academia.
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Oct 23, 2018 17:16
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Helsing posted:This kind of illustrates my point. The fact academics (or anyone for that matter) use narratives and other heuristic devices to make sense of the world isn't controversial. What is supposed to make academic work distinctive is usually the fact that it's collaborative in nature - committees, peer review, conferences, etc. Right it's just what brains do. And that second part is right also, but it's not peculiar to academia. Variations on that theme are present in bunch of different institutions to deal with it, boards, councils, journals, etc. Even what this thread is doing now is a good example. And I have found goons to be better at it, up until one gets to like program or department heads.
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Oct 23, 2018 22:22
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Via Hegel is the way to do that, you need the things an idealist can do that a strict materialist can't.
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Oct 27, 2018 01:04
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Loel posted:As an aside, where do I start with Hegel? Everytime I try to start I'm immediately in the deep end. I had it easy cause all the theology I was obsessed with owed quite a lot to Hegel. Maybe that's not accurate, existentialism was a response/rejection of Hegel's essentialism. "Modern existentialism was born as a protest agaisnt Hegelian Essentialism" If there is an Aquinas of mainline protestantism, it's Hegel. I mean some good ECLA Lutheran pastors even drop Hegel in Sermons. It helped to already have an understanding of neoplatonism and it's relationship with the Christian cosmology, what is actual meant by that word "Spirit". I mean I could say something like Hegel's system "is an unfolding of the Absolute in relative terms that is radically immanent" but that means gently caress all, unless one already knows what it means. I'd recommend Tillich's chapter on Hegel in "A History of Christian Thought". One used to be able to find it free on the internet. I can't seem to now. But Christianity isn't everybody's jam. Less than Nothing is also pretty good. Zizek nails it and a bunch of the assertions he makes that people think are a joke, most of them have analogs in theology and are accurate description of the concepts. Edit: what Ice Phisherman said too. The last thing I did was actually read Hegel. It was only tolerable once I'd already gotten everything.
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Oct 27, 2018 03:57
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The forums aren't a cult, so one would hope they'd recover in a way that cults don't manage to.
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Nov 1, 2018 06:39
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Willie Tomg posted:i think that was a fantastic collection and have said as much at the time and will say it again here, and making this thread a collective reading room would be a really really really cool place for this thread to go because as communists/socialists/pan-leftists/radicals/whatever getting together and bringing the university out of the university is 1000% our loving jam. One of my coworkers likes to talk about how large portions of his subject area was created for drunks with 6th grade education by educated drunks (and he could be specific as to which drunks). Harmonic motion combined with statics / dynamics and strengths of materials that one can do in ones head drunk and near illiterate. And some international treaties have sections based on it. One of my favorite books describe how to operate power plants (including nuclear!) are written in the same fashion. I think there is a huge need for that type of translation right now and getting the university out of the university is one way to start doing it. I'm going to try to keep up with everybody who starts reading When Prophecy Fails. Aleph Null posted:PJ does seem a bit sensitive to constructive criticism, but people are still offering it. Including a giant reading list of free material that anyone could download. I've seen people in SA harass PJ (and a short list of other posters, mostly WOC) in a way that appeared to me coordinated. I also know the area where she's from in OH and it is worse than she has communicated (I have family in Warren, Orwell, Bloomfield, etc.) Most of haven't experienced the marginalization of homelessness in society the way she has (unless Uglycat is around). Prester's thought has some inconsistencies and it isn't completely coherent, but fragments of it resonate and are very descriptive/explainitive eg. Comparison cycles, inner/outer narratives, and bypasses. Some of those ideas do have analogs in various other systems of thought, but they're not all together elsewhere. It warrents methodical development be it scientific or critical. Here's the thing is what is signified by Prester's language? Is it real? What do I mean by this? Take a compaction cycle does that happen in cult groups? Is anyone here ready to argue that it doesn't? Some of us have observed it. Not even the harsh critics are saying that, instead they're saying that instead of Prester's language we should use language that pushes people towards more liberating frameworks / language. That's not denying the thing she's signifying. The criticism is mostly how should this be developed and should other languages be used to talk about it. Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 07:22 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 05:52
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So while reading the first chapter it got me thinking back to some things that have come up before in other discussions. In the NT the letters of Paul (the ones that are actually his) are the earliest books. The story behind his travels is that he is collecting from all these churches he visits to give a collection to the church in Jerusalem (he wants to jump starts the return of Jesus) it goes bad (so bad that it's not in the canon). The four Gospels are probably written down in response to the Jewish War and destruction of the temple. Pauline apocalyptic thought is before a predicted apocalyptic event. The gospels are written down after a disconfirmation event. Apocalyptic thought at its core always has a couple of assertion: poo poo's hosed. hosed poo poo is going to end someday. But when ever there is a concrete: this specfic hosed poo poo will end this way and on this time frame that always leads to a disconfirmation. Eventually the apocalypse (if the group affirming it survives and continues to affirm it) gets pushed back to the end of history and / or it gets immanatized (and one sees this combination in liturgical Christianity).
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Nov 4, 2018 04:50
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Former DILF posted:but this poo poo really waffles my batter, im not a liturgy boi I've stopped giving a poo poo about what we each are. But this is the larger issue (seperate from Prester related discussion ) poo poo's hosed, concretely that poo poo is modernity and Capitalism. The nature of apocalyptic thought needs looking at.
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Nov 4, 2018 06:32
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This is good stuff.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:41
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Also if you just want a concise operational definition of Narrativism, maybe it's "cult-like behavior found outside of cults" Corrupt hidden religion.
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Nov 11, 2018 02:28
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I was struck by this in Lakoff that Helsing posted. "The most representative members of a category are called "prototypical" members." In a quite a bit of Christian theology, I would say it's fair to say Jesus is treated as a "prototypical" member (with the specfic category varying for the specific theology ) of a category. Hell simply to say Jesus as the Christ is to assert this prototypical status. In the Trump thread a tweet of a billboard with Trump's photo overlayed with "the word made flesh" was posted. Basically it's swapping the prototype. It occurs to me that this is the way one could functionally turn one belief into another without nominally changing them. It also has a parallel in other D&D conversation some of us have had over the years re form vs content. I'd also say it has another parralel in the emptying out of things that capitalism can do. How does one change talk about Freedom into a fascism, manipulation/replacement of the prototypes of categories would be one way to do it.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:19
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Oh yeah and that's specifically what that billboard was implying. It's really hosed up looking at it in terms of Soterology.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:03
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Nah It's phone posting and I didn't notice, cause I blow at spelling.
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Nov 17, 2018 02:47
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Nevvy Z posted:They think Jesus comes back when everyone goes back to their native lands except white people keep America, right? By hidden I mean things that do not outwardly appear or claim to be religions. Libertarianism is good example. Nationalism is another. Hidden doesn't nessisarily mean bad. Just hidden. The American Dream might be another example. By corrupt, how to say this in non religious terms. Ok let's look at the Libertarians they talk about Freedom, that's their jam, freedom in human action. But if we actually look at the thing, it's more in reality like feudalism or contractual slavery. So basically you have an idea but the reality of the methodical development of that idea is it negation. Freedom that is a slavery. By religion I mean our interaction with the symbolic to attempt to grasp the ineffable real. Now religion is actually way more broad and diverse than this and is really really hard to define, but this is the definition useful to this conversation. Worldview, ideology, and prester's narratives are close but not identical analogs.
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Nov 18, 2018 06:26
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Unrelated, Skex is good people Prester. But, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. I don't think you are. Neither was Stanton. The abolitionists did betray the feminists, by leaving women out of the thirteenth amendment. But they weren't wrong either. It wouldn't have been adopted if they hadn't.
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Nov 18, 2018 07:32
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Currently they're platforms not responsible for the content posted they don't want lose that status.
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Nov 19, 2018 00:13
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Is There Such a Thing as an Authoritarian Voter? https://nyti.ms/2LhDOi4
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Dec 17, 2018 19:01
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In the a Heidegger thread a definition of technology as "a means to an end" came up. In the conversations across several threads regarding systems dynamics the foundations of cybernetics have come up. In that discipline technologies have two parts: the technology and the suite of ideas needed to effectively use the technology. The classic example being electricity (the technology) and the assembly line (the idea that let factories that where electrified be used more effectively than steam or belt driven factories). I've been thinking of your narratives with these two concepts. A narrative is used and propogated as a means to an end. It's a technology with Heidegger's definition. And that means there is a corresponding suite of ideas for its effective use that could be describe systematically. There's a way to ground and have a foundation for Prester's framework.
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Feb 2, 2019 05:30
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Expectation and demand and the socialist principle. You're onto something with gamers and capitalism Prester.
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Feb 13, 2019 19:23
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The impression I've gotten is that everybody is doing it (the botnet thing) now. The USB stick stuff came up in US Pol. I know various foreign government sites are being targeted to infect USB sticks that will get onto ships. I can't be more specfic about that. But it's scaring the hell out of me.
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Apr 12, 2019 20:08
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Yeah that's why they've all gone to net 60 or even net 90 in some cases. Basically they're generating profit by slowing down how fast the money passes through them.
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May 5, 2019 00:31
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RandomPauI posted:We're in for a rough year for food prices in the coming months. Potatoes went planted late or unplanted because of a rainy winter and spring, and the flooding destroyed or prevented the planting of a lot of corn, soy, and other staple crops. This will be much worse overseas. Within the US most of what is being affected are commodity crops. Feed / ethanol corn. Soy to be used as feed. Simultaneously our crop had also had the demand side kicked in the nuts, by the China tariffs. We may see a price rise. But it's not going to be huge. We might not see one depending on what demand for exported US meat lookd like. China had already been taking steps to replace our supply, they'll see a slightly larger one. Smaller countries may be hosed. Especially places where our animal grade commodity grains are eaten by people. Non commodity grain foods, the veg in the super market, that's a very different thing. That's mostly Canada, California and Mexico. The aborted Mexican tariffs would have hosed that. Ghost Leviathan posted:There was an article recently about how white people in the USA post WW2 had an unspoken safety net of racist favouritism that they stopped bothering to maintain after the Cold War. Now we've seen the last generation for whom capitalism has worked as advertised, and are fleeing to any alternative that seems viable, now socialism and fascism. It wasn't a bothering to maintain thing, it was a they died off thing. In my industry they refer to the "class of 42". Basically these guys all fought in the war together. They conspired to advance people they liked or thought highly (and didn't really give a poo poo about credentials). They also participated in social clubs, moose, rotary, lions, VFW, etc and donated their time to public service. They took in young people and mentored them or gave them opportunities to go places they otherwise wouldn't have been capable of going. They were also often drunk, racist and misogynistic. They also failed to communicate the need to do these things to thier childern, often because they couldn't talk to them. They failed to extend it past white men. I'd say older Millenials like me just barely caught the tail end of seeing and interacting with them. Then we saw it vanish for people younger than us. Personally I think we need to re-engage with those social organizations, combined with not being huge racist/misogynistic dicks like they were. Intentionally extend opportunity to those without privilege if it's possible and wherever its possible to do so. But our generation is only just beginning to get into a position to do that. But that's probably too late. The boomers needed to do that. Unrelated Stellaris is definitely the best.
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Jun 8, 2019 15:40
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Also unrelated. Lean supply chains are more resilient than one would assume. A problem with one node, will simply reroute cargos through other nodes.
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Jun 8, 2019 15:45
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I know it's happening but Jesus Christ that's still stunning.
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Jun 17, 2019 21:56
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When I was a cadet used to watch a hosed up OS (ordinary seaman) hit on women. He was the arcitypye of the horny sailor. It didn't work 99 times out of a hundred. Fucker would try 200 or 300 times a month though. Now that's not exemplary behavior, ( it's horrible). But it's a useful example. The odds that a specfic academic finds what you have to say compelling may be very low. But you only need to find one.
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Jun 18, 2019 02:58
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Prester Jane posted:Your singular contribution to this thread so far has been to constantly harp on my lack of a formal education- you say my ideas are interesting but that I'm not formally educated enough yet to articulate them or discuss them or try to develop them or something. All you've done is to constantly hit me in a sore spot over and over because you know you can- I would ask you to contribute something of value to the discussion if you're going to post in this thread. I think you could look at this a different way. Helsing is rigorously critical, negative, his tone is a snarl and he is doggedly persistent when he thinks he's right. He's not targeting you that's just how he is. There is value in that. You can depend on him to be those things. But he also has some blind spots, there are things I don't think he gets about leadership that I think you get down to your bones. But he is telling you things that probably do need to be done to take what you're doing to a wider audience or an academic one. But that's also very differen't thing from doing, from acting in the world risking self based on what one believes. That's the real test of the ideas we each believe in anyway and it seems to me that's where you're headed, to doing.
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Jun 21, 2019 20:45
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You should read the Socialist Desicion
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Jul 5, 2019 01:31
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Luigi's Discount Porn Bin posted:Trying to build a massive, internally-coherent theoretical framework in advance of really putting in the effort to connect it to previous scholarship is a fundamentally misguided approach to social science. When I was in grad school. I made a model that explained why I thought there was a structural reason for the overcapacity in the containership lines. I've posted the causal loop diagram in some of the D&D trade threads. But I got asked by the program head "How did you create this?", because his goal for the program was to teach people how to do what I had done. I gave him a bullshit answer. The real answer was: I saw it and merely put it down on paper. I couldn't tell that because I would have been telling him his program was a failure. My brain spit it out because I'm am immersed in the subject professionally. When I was an engineering undergrad I had a similiar experience. Other students would memorize methods for solving problem instances. These are the steps to diagram the state of steam through turbine stages, etc. I didn't ever have to do that. I looked at the drawing or drew the problem and my brain spit out a few near complete equations. So I produced the right answer consistently, but without the work, basically jumping from assumptions straight to answer ( and the correct answer). Much to the ire of my proffesors. But change the problem instance with a new twist and the people who memorize methods would get hosed up. Not everyone's brain works in the methodical manner universities and schools in general teach. I had the great fortune of having been in a program (probably the best one in the country) for other weirdos like me for most of elementary, middle and portions of high school. So I had been taught to fake it and I can jump through the hoops. Later in grad school I encountered the same thing in linear programming. Students are taught to produce systems of equations methodically in a way that can be solved by a matrix in the computer, think tableau or the excel matrix solver. My brain just spits out the systems of equations in a way suitable for solving by substitution, but that's not suitable format for a matrix solver so I have to go back and add all the zero terms. Very early in elementary school I had similiar issues with reading. When you have a first grader who has already worn out a copy of the Hobbit, they tend to go "lol gently caress this poo poo" if one tries to force phonics on them. But that led to testing and a diagnosis for me. It seems to me that this might be the same way for Prester. I guess what I'm saying is my own experience is less like construction, and more regurgitive. It's in there and I vomit it out and then the work of methodically and rigorously connecting it, supporting it with citations etc, is an after the fact exercise.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:13
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Blood / Race / Whiteness is an attempt to replace a broken myth of origin. Any attempt to replace a broken myth of origin is always going to be a contradictory piece of crap.
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Jul 20, 2019 06:36
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Willie Tomg posted:if your idea is a fundamentally psychological one--and i contend, no it is not, narrativism as you've described it is sociological/anthropological depending on how othering you wish to be to the objects of your study--then surely none here are without psychologies. "Myths of Origin" is a sociological/anthropological idea remarkably similiar to "narratives". And what happens when myths of origin are broken ties into how both fascism and socialism arise. And how the whole thing is related to religion.
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Aug 9, 2019 19:40
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Myth and broken myth
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Aug 12, 2019 21:32
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It's fascism dude he's been a fuhrur figure for a while now, just with a different set of words to signify it.
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Aug 22, 2019 03:20
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I'm working on a thread about it Willie. I've got about 7000 words written on the Socialist Desicion. Probably will put an OP around the end of the month and then will put up my take away of a chapter from the book every few days. I'm going to be real pissy and away from my family for three days that'll be a good time to put it up, if I have internet. I think I'll have internet in Seward. I might have been able to put off getting to this book indefinately, Prester's a good portion of why I can't. It's rough and unproof read and I'm writing casually. I'm only addressing one work. But it's a really important one.
Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 05:19 on Aug 22, 2019 |
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Aug 22, 2019 05:01
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Someone who is "not-not-bourgeoisie" shouldn't be the enemy of a marxist. Dogmatism is a bad look in any belief system. Edit: to be clear here this is aimed at Willie.
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Aug 31, 2019 20:21
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Unrelated to everything I boarded a ship I think you'd get a kick out of Prester. Edit: I should clarify I attended the maiden voyage of the Kobayashi Maru Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 05:05 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 05:01
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Jazerus posted:so...did you save them from the klingons????? No but I have boarded the Millennium Falcon to inspect sensitive cargos of high consequence.
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Sep 1, 2019 15:01
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Dumb Lowtax posted:His blog is increasingly trying to channel what at first seemed to be as deep "stoner thoughts", but might actually be mental illness, into some greater understanding of how society is organized. Case in point: That's actually a pretty good illustration of the process of how how dogma and a theonomy work a description of how it worked in Catholicism (and a good general case) I've posted before: "Don't forget all these steps: FIRST, the natural thought, which is in every religion. SECOND, the methodological development of doctrines. THIRD, the acceptance of some doctrines as protective doctrines against distortions. FOURTH, the legalization of these doctrines as parts of the canonic law. FIFTH, the acceptance of these doctrines as the foundation not only of the Church but also of the state, because the state has no other content than the content the Church gives it., so that he who is supposed to undermine this content not only undermines the Church but also the state." Basically that's a casual loop diagram of kicking starting that process of creating a theonomy. The crazy part is looking at it and going yes this is a good idea we should do this. How it works is not being perceived incorrectly, that it's bad and not desirable to do it that's where urban's crazy is. Is he a goon?
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Sep 5, 2019 00:06
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