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Discendo Vox posted:Yeah when I mentioned the problems with sustaining a full-scale state propaganda apparatus, this was almost exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. Give any comprehensive propaganda system a decade and you're basically turboscrewed its own institutional understanding. The next group of propagandists and censors can't sustain the practice. Even if your people start out knowing that they're lying, and why, and how, the performative act of lying means they very rapidly start drinking their own flavoraid. There's got to be an academic terminology for this set of issues, but I don't know of it. I don't know what the academic terminology is, but the colloquial one is "inmates running the asylum". And a convenient lie that's spread to serve the interests of the powerful becoming entrenched and then actually harming those interests as those in power start to believe and then act on the lies that were originally just a cynical way to manipulate others isn't uncommon. The most prominent example I can think of is Germany's stab-in-the-black myth. Ludendorf and Heisenberg knew drat well that Germany was militarily defeated in the field, the Kaiser sued for peace because they sent him a message telling him the front could not hold another eight hours, but after the war in order to save the reputations of the military command and the aristocracy they created the lie that they were about to win when Jews and Democrats rose up from behind and gave it all away to the Entente. 20 years on, the German people and the new government actually believed that they were supermen who could conquer the world once their internal enemies were rounded up, and they proceeded to declare war on the entire industrial world, and forced the Western capitalists who originally supported the Nazis as an anticommunist power to forge a military alliance with the communists (  ), which of course led to Germany's utter defeat.Or the modern Republican Party. Nixon's guys were all cynical political operators who knew drat well they were lying and as a result were very successful in ripping holes in the New Deal and crafting legislation that benefited the American people enough to placate them while secretly favoring capital. Fast forward 40 years and the people who grew up believing the lies are now getting elected, and they can't pass legislation even with full control of the government. They had a golden opportunity to fix some of the most obvious problems with the ACA while turning it into an even bigger money spigot for the rich while putting in traps to slowly strangle the poor over time and they couldn't manage it because the Suicide Caucus genuinely believed it was smart to immediately jack premiums and deny care and openly funnel the proceeds to the ultrarich, and they refused to vote for any other plan. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 23:27
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 22:21 |
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GoluboiOgon posted:not to derail the thread into nazi-chat, but this narrative greatly ignores the ties between big german business and the nazi party. Molotov-ribbentrop didn't hurt german industrialists (who had already been doing business with the soviets even before the nazis, as the soviets were willing to ignore versailles treaty restrictions on the arms trade), it gave them access to a large supply of raw materials, even after being blockaded by the allies, and stopped the 3rd international from agitating against german interests globally. large german corporations were able to make vast profits off of wwii, both from war profiteering on arms sold to the nazis and from the use of slave labor in occupied territories. the most infamous of these companies, ig farben, had it's own subcamp at auschwitz, where it employed slave labor to make the the zyklon b sold to death camps. after the war, all of the executives survived the nuremberg trials, and company was reformed into three new subsidiaries, partially to avoid paying reparations to their former victims. one of these subsidiaries is bayer, whose recent acquisition of monsanto has allowed the company to return to its roots making insecticides. the nazi party may have been defeated in wwii, but german big business made out like bandits from supporting the nazis and got to keep the blood money they earned, they weren't really a case of propagandists getting screwed by their own lies. And yeah the capitalists did fine since they were conquered by mostly other capitalists who had in interest in excusing their own class from the atrocities of the war and preserving their profits (unlike what happened in the Soviet section). GoluboiOgon posted:more on topic, i'm not sure that a full-scale propaganda apparatus necessarily will collapse of it's own accord within the timescale of ten years or so. north korea, for instance, hasn't significantly changed the way that they report news for 70 years, and they seem to be relatively stable, even after the collapse of the soviet union screwed their finances. counting the catholic church as a propaganda outlet might be a bit controversial, but they definitely believed what they were preaching, and had nearly complete monopoly on the written word and what thought was allowed in europe for almost a thousand years. Sure every situation isn't the same. The PRC has been around for half a century and while the success of its censorship program has resulted in censors who have to be taught real history before they can censor it, it doesn't seem likely to collapse the state. The Nazis collapsing in less than 15 years was impressively incompetent. The Catholic Church isn't really the same I think, because while yes they persecuted heretical thought they really didn't (usually) try to censor it so completely that no one even knew about it anymore such that they had to teach two versions of history. In fact the opposite, in many cases the original writings of the heretics have been lost and the only reason we even know about those heresies is from Catholic scholars quoting those works in their rebuttals, which were preserved by the church. They also didn't have direct political control over Catholic Europe so even if they did ban a book you could always get it especially after the Reformation
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Jan 8, 2019 05:18
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Putin attacks the press all the time in Russia, that's how you know the Russian press is so trustworthy and reliable, because Putin attacks them
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Jan 8, 2019 05:44
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You don't think someone tells CNN what stories to run? Do you know how companies work?
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Jan 10, 2019 23:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like, not some guy that is also telling FOX what stories to run in some organized system. So if one independent media company exists then there's no propaganda anywhere in the country, even if that one guy agrees with all the propaganda coincidentally? CNN and Fox are both corporate propaganda, even if they're not in a personal union and even if they disagree on some things. Adam Smith posted:People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy Adam Smith was talking about capitalists who even nominally in competition with each other, nevertheless act in concert to advance their class interests. The idea that media corporations are somehow exempt from this observation is so silly that a dead dude called it out as ridiculously ignorant centuries ago. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 20:02
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Dick Cheney asked the New York Times to print something he made up as attributable to anonymous sources as a great personal favor to him, then he went on the next media outlet and cited the New York Times, and all of the American media circularly pushed that same story, but the NYT is not literally the property of the US Government so this wasn't propaganda it was just independent fact-based reporting that all happened to say the same thing exactly how the government wanted them to say it. No need to be concerned there, it was just everyone's personal opinion.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:14
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