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Cugel the Clever posted:My skepticism centers on whether there's a true, measurable difference that could be independently reproduced, or if this is just another example of the wine connoisseur thing where there fundamentally isn't a there there and they've just been accultured into a social milieu where an ability to verbally jerk off over grape juice is a status signifier. It's more likely to be real where you have something with complex construction interacting with a human body. It makes sense that it does make a mechanical difference in terms of ease of complex techniques. A listener might not be able to tell the difference in tone but it might feel better for the flautist and mean they have a higher chance of executing correctly. That's pretty different to wine tasting, it's closer to how a luxury car feels to drive compared to a cheaper car (I know nothing about cars I hope this metaphor makes sense).
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May 3, 2024 16:48
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so it's 95% wealth and power, 5% actually being better, just like luxury cars
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May 3, 2024 16:50
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I guess that 80k instrument is gonna last your entire lifetime. Most other things you have a pretty high yearly burn.
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May 3, 2024 17:05
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bob dobbs is dead posted:so it's 95% wealth and power, 5% actually being better, just like luxury cars Just like luxury anything, mostly.
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May 3, 2024 17:09
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Baddog posted:I guess that 80k instrument is gonna last your entire lifetime. Most other things you have a pretty high yearly burn. its also gonna be worth a good amount of money to your heirs
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May 3, 2024 17:12
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Baddog posted:I guess that 80k instrument is gonna last your entire lifetime. Most other things you have a pretty high yearly burn. every instrument has got maintenance, and winds have more cuz you put your spit in them i had a nasty habit of drinking diet coke right before playing my saxophone a long time ago, which ruined a $400 cheapo one's insides. if i'd had my $2500 selmer ($4000 nowadays, looks like) back then, that woulda been a problem
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May 3, 2024 17:23
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Yeah if you're buying an 80k flute from Powell's you have a relationship with Powell's already. You've bought instruments from them before, you bring your instruments there for repair, etc. So part of the customization is you go in and play some stuff, maybe borrow a couple instruments they have, then tell them what you think you want. They probably do some measurements for arrangement of keys and stuff. They build something for you, you play it, and you say well I want this and that and the other thing adjusted and they do that, to the extent of remaking parts (or all) of the instrument. This is like, a craftsman tier bespoke object. Guitars, even handmade ones, are largely commoditized. How does this super customization play into the used market? Are instruments at this level recustomized when resold?
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May 3, 2024 17:25
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In 8th grade I convinced the band teacher to buy a bassoon so I could switch from clarinet, and when I later looked up how much they cost it was definitely a GWM move on my part. Even the reeds were like $10 apiece back in the early 2000s.
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May 3, 2024 17:42
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:oh yeah i mean none of this is necessary for a music PhD at a all because if you are really playing enough at a high enough level to justify an 80k flute you are not getting a music PhD because you have been doing the top tier pro flute thing for your whole life and you already own an 80k flute Out of curiosity, is this pretty much everyone in a professional orchestra? I'm sure there's a massive amount of confounding (ie, the type of person that makes it to a professional orchestra likely comes from a background that makes it possible for them to spend their lives being a professional musician etc etc), but is there anyone in a professional orchestra that dgaf slumming it with a 10k instrument?
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May 3, 2024 17:43
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carrionman posted:Jesus, I felt hard done by having to buy 8k of tools for a trade qual. In the metaverse?
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May 3, 2024 17:50
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percussion, piano and double bass (this is more of a variegated thing) are usually provided by orchestra. organs, basically without exception sometimes orchestras have their own mega-obscure stuff like richard wagner tuba, contrabass trombone / saxophone, etc. bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 17:51
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Gonna win the powerball and build my own pipe organ
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May 3, 2024 17:57
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alan kay has one just gotta get paid 7 / 8 figgies a year at then-tech majors for decades, i guess
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May 3, 2024 17:59
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bob dobbs is dead posted:alan kay has one You can afford one a lot easier than that. A nice church organ like that one is less than $200K. You could get a nice appropriate to a mcmansion sized one for less than the $80K people are paying for flutes.
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May 3, 2024 18:10
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yeah, the mansion in the bay area is the main thing i'm actually talking about
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May 3, 2024 18:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:oh yeah i mean none of this is necessary for a music PhD at a all because if you are really playing enough at a high enough level to justify an 80k flute you are not getting a music PhD because you have been doing the top tier pro flute thing for your whole life and you already own an 80k flute I wonder sometimes about things like music PhDs. On the one hand, it clearly has no ties with career advancement. Music is one of those fields like sports or acting, where everything that matters is actual performance and absolutely no one gives a gently caress about any kind of credentialing. But it also doesn't seem like the sciences, where the people doing the pure research in academic fields may not be pulling in the $$$ but are still necessary because what they do filters down and becomes vital to the work of the professionals.
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May 3, 2024 18:21
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the liberal arts were originally designed for noblemen to do noblemen poo poo, all the intellectual tools to do mass violence and be officers (or churchmen or administrators or lawyers). music was critical for violence in the premodern era for troop signalling and is basically marginal now, although armies still have bands and orchestras because they're organizational magpies. education perseverates, what can I say the trivium (grammar / writing, logic, rhetoric) for understanding and giving orders and thinking. of the quadrivium (arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy), arithmetic and geometry for sieges and supply. music for signalling. astronomy for navigation. of course these also have use for churchmen and stuff noblemen's schools in the 1500s advertised also their high-quality drill exercises for 10-year-olds. the modern comparative pacifism of universities stems from vietnam, within living memory and peeps still have rotc and stuff bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 18:25
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Music theory is a fairly active area of research and it does influence some compositions, but not in a way that most of us will ever hear. That probably translates into indirect influence on more popular music even if it's slow.
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May 3, 2024 18:28
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also its like fine to do things for fun or enlightenment or whatever, just generally a bad idea to take out a loan to buy a 80k accessory that isn't going to actually support your "fun" Music PhD journeyResidency Evil posted:Out of curiosity, is this pretty much everyone in a professional orchestra? I'm sure there's a massive amount of confounding (ie, the type of person that makes it to a professional orchestra likely comes from a background that makes it possible for them to spend their lives being a professional musician etc etc), but is there anyone in a professional orchestra that dgaf slumming it with a 10k instrument? Depends on how you define professional. Nobody you see at say, the Cleveland Symphony is gonna be playing a cheap instrument. And generally speaking you don't make it to professional orchestra permanent chair tiers without very much giving a gently caress about every aspect of your playing, from your instrument to conditions to your body. That includes stuff like specialized physical therapy, targeted strength and conditioning etc. I have a finger deformity that was exacerbated by playing; in order to keep playing at the amount I had to play to progress, I had to get an expensive and custom fit ring splint. I had to do various specific exercises to build strength and flexibility and I had to be careful about how I otherwise used that finger. edit: and I was by no means good enough, like I didn't practice more than an hour a day, and i was never going to go to a conservatory and or make a career out of it. But even playing at a high level in youth orchestra you have to do that poo poo or quit. (eventually I quit) I think people conflate pro classical music as like, amateur music but more so (I play an hour a day and am decent, think about how good I could be with a good teacher and time and money for more lessons and a good instrument and free time to practice more!), when in reality it's pro sports, except you don't get paid and there's only niche glory in it. edit: Most of the people I know who play/played at a high level view the instrument as an extension of themselves or a partner in a fairly personal way. It makes sense at some level both from a total amount of time invested and spent with that object and from the emotional nature of music and performance. People who have had to stop playing for various reasons become depressed, suicidal, etc. It's basically the pro athlete story. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 18:45 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 18:41
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I would like to assume anyone getting a music PhD comes from enough wealth that they dont need to really worry about working. And in that case, sure, why not. Its better than spending your time and money on boats and cocaine or something. But, this guy cant even afford a solid gold flute without taking out a loan? That thing is getting repo'd and melted down for sure
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May 3, 2024 19:00
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gotta be having nobleman money to go do nobleman poo poo
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May 3, 2024 19:02
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:That includes stuff like specialized physical therapy, targeted strength and conditioning etc. there’s a place that makes flutes of different weights/materials for use in physical therapy and such
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May 3, 2024 19:10
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Are we, and by we I mean you, paying for people to do flute PhDs, or are they self funding? BWM either way
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May 3, 2024 19:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think people conflate pro classical music as like, amateur music but more so (I play an hour a day and am decent, think about how good I could be with a good teacher and time and money for more lessons and a good instrument and free time to practice more!), when in reality it's pro sports, except you don't get paid and there's only niche glory in it. To extend the analogy to pro sports, Under Armour even makes a line of moisture wicking, temperature controlling formalwear for players and conductors who have to be all fancy to play in symphonies and whatnot. (Or at least they're trialing it with the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra.)
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May 3, 2024 19:29
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knox_harrington posted:Are we, and by we I mean you, paying for people to do flute PhDs, or are they self funding? BWM either way Pmchem is prolly gonna kill me for drifting into what can be considered politics in the funny thread. I think the discussion has actually been pretty good tho? I'd be ok paying for the education, because we shouldn't just subsidize stem. Liberal arts degrees have a ton of value as well. But I have a hard time with student loans going for 80k flutes. Or the original example, buying options on GameStop. Or on the supplier side, enabling public colleges to bloat up so badly that they start building buffalo shaped outdoor swimming pools in an area where outdoor pools are a terrible idea because of the soil and the temperature swings. https://www.americanspa.com/universities/university-colorado-buffalo-shaped-pool-opens
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May 3, 2024 19:41
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:lotta you grew up not spending much time around professional classical wizards i take it With just a few word changes, your (very interesting) post becomes lore in a post-modern fantasy novel.
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May 3, 2024 19:42
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A music performance/composition PhD is like a DA/DFA: essentially just an arbitrary tool for universities to further extract money from dilettantes. You can learn and demonstrate your mastery of these subjects perfectly well without the advanced degree, and it is not expected even for teaching at the university level.
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May 3, 2024 19:53
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They're not great with money any way, but I don't think even things like 80k flutes on a student loan really compare to poo poo like gamestop options (or audiophile nonsense). We're in a society where tons of people spend the vast majority of their leisure time consuming art. Yet the prevailing opinion among those people is that the anyone who does the work to create that art is an effete layabout , even if they're literally dedicating their lives to a craft that requires extreme levels of practice and talent. The best analogy I have is tools, where yes there's tons of stuff you can get from harbor freight that's just as good as snap-on. There are also many situations where the cheap tool is worse than nothing and just damages your workpiece or breaks apart within it. Often in these cases, the expensive tool wouldn't have any problems (screwdrivers of all things can be like this). Despite the real tendency for dilettantes to pretend they're pros, there is a reason to prefer a tool made with quality materials to a high standard over the cheapest bullshit you can find on aliexpress. It's just that the "prosumer" market tends to generate a lot of chaff where people who can't afford the pro stuff just buy whatever is expensive, but not bank-breaking. Lyesh fucked around with this message at 20:28 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 20:21
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Not a Children posted:I recently picked up a keyboard to learn piano and while the people at the local guitar center were pretty chill there was definitely an undercurrent of "if you are serious about learning you can get this model for just a few hundo more, and if you're gonna do that anyway these other models blow that out of the water and are just a little more than that" and no dude I just need the cheapest thing with 88 weighted keys and a sustain pedal Thanks to the Internet you can get this same experience from people who don't even have a monetary interest in selling you the more expensive poo poo, just head over to /r/somehobby for lots of pictures of new gear, questions about which gear to buy, and very occasionally an actual demonstration that somebody is using the gear.
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May 3, 2024 20:24
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a platinum flute is not a prerequisite to creating art, even if it really is 10% more comfortable to play that one annoying chord that always felt a bit awkward on your rental also neither music phds nor elite classical orchestras are producing the kind of popular art that most people seek out and enjoy. it's definitely about prestige and status i'll support anyone's right to post beats to soundcloud from their mom's basement though RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 20:31 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 20:28
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rjmccall posted:I assume there are any number of subtle artisan touches that distinguish fine flutemaking from the common tin whistle. I also assume they don’t really have much to do with making the drat thing out of platinum. My wife's relative died recently and was a flute professor. He had a collection of antique flutes and getting them appraised was extraordinarily difficult because . . . He was the guy who appraised such things
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May 3, 2024 20:33
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:a platinum flute is not a prerequisite to creating art, even if it really is 10% more comfortable to play that one annoying chord that always felt a bit awkward on your rental People are acting like there's prices for things that are "obviously" past the point of noticeable returns based on gut feelings, so forgive me if I'm overstating my point quite a bit.
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May 3, 2024 20:34
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the people who get watched and listened to are often compensated fairly, it's just that literally something like 10,000 peeps make half of all music that actually gets listened to per listens. so even more brutally unequal than classical music
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May 3, 2024 20:36
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Lyesh posted:People are acting like there's prices for things that are "obviously" past the point of noticeable returns based on gut feelings, so forgive me if I'm overstating my point quite a bit. i'll go so far as to say that even if the 80k flute is obviously and measurably superior to their current one it's still not worth it for a student with no job to pay more than the median american household's yearly income for an upgrade to an instrument they already have at least not unless they're rich as gently caress already and can pay for it out of pocket
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May 3, 2024 20:48
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Higher quality implies higher cost but higher cost does not imply higher quality. There is a point where you cannot meaningfully improve the quality of a tool, and the cost to achieve that level of quality is well well below the maximum someone somewhere is willing to charge you for something comparable or worse. Also cost does not scale linearly with quality. You might get a significant improvements for minor increases in cost or gaining even minimal improvement might result in a significant increase in cost. Basically don't buy the cheap crap but also don't think that buying the most expensive thing on the market acts like going from a +4 to a +5 enchanted weapon. Splicer fucked around with this message at 20:53 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 20:48
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It is complicated by the fact that steel, silver, and gold flutes do actually sound different, because they are, after all, different metals. But of course different doesn’t necessarily mean better; wooden flutes can also sound great, it’s just a very different sound. I can’t find anyone talking about the different acoustics of platinum
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May 3, 2024 20:53
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I just wanna laugh at people BWM like this genius who lost 25 million USD gambling. https://x.com/ClubShayShay/status/1785824594542424510
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May 3, 2024 20:54
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chuck pulls in like ten mil a year in base pay from TNT right now after making like 40 million in his NBA career so i think hes gonna be ok
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May 3, 2024 21:15
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:i'll go so far as to say that even if the 80k flute is obviously and measurably superior to their current one it's still not worth it for a student with no job to pay more than the median american household's yearly income for an upgrade to an instrument they already have i don't think anyone's arguing that it's a bad idea for this particular moron to buy a 80k flute but the original argument revolved more around "why would anyone pay more than $2-4k for a musical instrument" than the dudes specific circumstances
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May 3, 2024 21:19
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Bad with Mozart: the “magic” flute
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