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Gaz-L posted:I had let a bunch of books pile up in my Comixology due to various other things taking my attention/life stuff over the last couple years, and now due to covid and working from home I finally manage to make it through it (with the exception of ditching Nightwing once I got to the Lobdell run, made it about half an issue in and couldn't take any more). Which included about 80 issues of Wonder Woman, and then I finally got around to going through the original Rucka run and finally am making my way through the Simone stuff now. Cross-posting from chat thread.
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Dec 16, 2020 00:55
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BrianWilly posted:Do you mean the whole entire run? If so, then no not really. Issue #8 and #18 were the main Cheetah origin issues. He did follow up on the Cheetah thing in his contribution to one of the anniversary issues, he did a story where Diana tried to pay Circe to reverse the spell turning Minerva into the Cheetah. It was actually quite bittersweet. Wilson wrapped up the stuff with Themiscyra being locked out of our dimension or whatever, and the stuff with Ares being imprisoned and Cale's daughter. Speaking of, more of my stream of consciousness thoughts about the literal hundred-plus issues of that book I've read in the last month or so. Steve Orlando: Orlando has that Dan Slott element of desperately trying to show off how much obscure WW and DC lore he remembers. So we get stuff like the Bana-Mighdall being prominent for the first time in like a decade (mostly because if they were around, it makes Diana's angst about being away from home a little hollow when there's a bunch of Amazons in the Middle East), a new Aztek of all things, a revamped Paula von Gunther because that was a character we really needed back and a bunch of other obscure little callbacks. To be fair, most of it worked fairly well, other than the von Gunther stuff relying on the reader taking a lot on faith about how Lex Luthor's magic McGuffin would impact the character emotionally. I also appreciated the attempt to move Etta Candy out of the military but still keep her in some kind of globetrotting position that would let her hang out with Diana. Plus trying to ground the character in Boston was also a nice attempt. It's also clearly the run that's got the most influence going forward, seeing as it's where the South American Amazon tribe was introduced, leading into the new Wonder Girl we're getting. Mariko Tamaki: I've loved Tamaki's work over at Marvel, and should really get around to reading Laura Dean, but I'm a little disappointed so far with this run. It's pretty blatantly aiming to tie things into the new movie with Max Lord and his daughter being the main villains and as such a lot of themes around fantasy and delusion and self-deception, but I've always found Lord a little one-note as a villain because he's just a smidge too low-key to really be enjoyable as a transgressive sociopath, but too amoral to enjoy as an anti-hero. And Emma feels like we'd have benefited from getting to know more before the big turn. She was just Diana's shy neighbour with a rabbit and then BOOM, villain reveal.
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Dec 16, 2020 21:42
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It probably is Adam, but is there anything there that makes that definite, and not Billy? Also, am I the only one who thinks Naomi was hobbled from day one by just calling the book Naomi? I didn't even realise she had powers and assumed it was a book about a regular girl in the DCU until I saw her turn up in other titles.
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Dec 17, 2020 02:02
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Madkal posted:I don't mind Bendis doing Justice League but I really really really wish he would do something more low key. Give him a Vigilante reboot to do or something grimy like that. I genuinely think he has no interest in doing the low power street stuff, given how every time he wrote Batman in his Superman stuff, it felt like he was making fun of the character. Despite not being great at it, he's dead set on doing these huge multiversal epics.
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Dec 17, 2020 02:44
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It feels like Tamaki maybe had a notion for a new villain and then got told "you're gettin' 12 issues kid, oh, and make sure the guy from the movie is in every one". It's especially odd with how disconnected it is from the previous run, including Etta all of a sudden being back in the military.
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Dec 17, 2020 02:48
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Double Post for B-B-Bonus Round: Wonder Woman Earth One v2 by Grant Morrison and Yannick Paquette: Honestly, Morrison and Paquette's names tell you like 75% of whether you'll like what's here. The latter's art is pretty much as good and as questionably sexualised as ever, but outside of that latter issue, which honestly seems to be part of the goal of Morrison's script, is pretty drat gorgeous within the photo-real style it's aiming for. Now Morrison... Look, I'll be frank and say they've never really been my cup of tea. I tend to think they zero in on one or two particular themes or ideas for a big property like this and if you don't agree with those being core, then the whole thing falls apart, plus there's the usual hipster weirdness and the occasional feeling that their brain is moving too fast for their keyboard and you feel like you missed an issue's worth of pages, but not all at once, like you're only reading the even numbered pages and odd ones got torn out. In the first dozen pages we have Amazon science being powered by orgone energy, multiple cases of their weapons literally subduing Nazis via orgasm, and Paula von Gunther wanting to become a young Diana's slave, and yes, with the BDSM implications. So yeah, Morrison basically saw the kink elements of Marston's work and has decided to put that up front to the exclusion of any nuance or more recent examination. On top of that, making Dr Psycho into a lovely PUA/MRA type makes a lot of sense. What doesn't is having him be RIGHT about how women will respond to his tactics, having basically no-one, especially not Diana, refute his surface level critiques of feminism, and hoping that Etta and the Holiday Girls kicking him in the nuts is a good enough substitute for not having any actual counterpoints to the degree that I'm not sure Morrison disagrees with him. Oh, and Max Lord is standing in for (or maybe is an avatar of ) Ares, because sure why not. Look, the idea of Wonder Woman, shortly after coming to Man's/Patriarch's World, falling for a guy and it being an abusive relationship... It's not the place I'd take things, but there's something possibly valuable there, showing that even a strong woman can fall into that kind of situation and showing how a support structure of good friends and such can be vital to recognising it and getting out. But... like... Morrison doesn't even really linger on that element. By the time Psycho's going full controlling creep, he shifts into supervillain mode in the same scene so... Honestly, the one bit of this I think is the most generally successful is the general set-up with WW as ambassador (*cough*Ruckashouldbedoingthese*cough*) and the ONE LINE where Morrison at least functionally has Diana say that trans women are women, which is nice.
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Dec 17, 2020 03:36
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WW Binge thoughts part 3! Rucka (pre-New 52 run): There's a reason this has kind of been the gold standard for Wonder Woman runs since about the point it was published. It nailed down a way to ground the character in the modern world while still keeping the connection to the mythological. Honestly the myth that there's no 'Dark Knight Returns' or 'Hush' for Wonder Woman- no one self-contained story you can hand to a fan to get them in the door- is completely destroyed by The Hiketeia. It has Greek myth, but the implementation is grounded in a contemporary setting, it demonstrates the tension between Diana's adherence to her own traditions and morality, versus the wider world's and it has a big ol' Batman cameo to make it go down easier for the fussy baby that doesn't wanna read no girl comic. The run proper sets a perfect tone by having the lead be basically absent for all the first issue, allowing you to get situated in the setting of the Amazon embassy. You get an appealing supporting cast, a way to have your hero interacting with people out of costume and add that soap opera-y drama that doesn't require punching to resolve and an engine to introduce bigger issues to the story. Same with Diana's book launch. It feels a bit like Babby's First Discourse when viewed in 2020, but it engages with the character's core concept and updates it to face contemporary pushback. Another element that, along with elements of Simone's run, makes me absolutely baffled at how Azzarello got so much praise for an 'original' take on the property, Rucka's take on the Greek myth stuff is fantastic. The more modernised looks and personas he and the various artists created for the Greek (and beyond) pantheon nails the balance between keeping them true to the myths, and adhering to the comic's liberties, as well as again bringing things up to date. The battle with Medusa and the lead up to it is absolutely nailbiting, the refreshing notion that the gods that have domains more plugged into modern life are becoming more powerful (Athena and Ares because of expanding knowledge and conflict, Aprodite and Eros because of expanding acceptance of sexual/romantic diverstity) while ones who can't grow and adapt are becoming obsolete. It's pretty clearly derailed by Infinite Crisis, seeing as the slow burnining political tension between the Amazons and the US is just forgotten in the wake of the OMAC stuff, and even Rucka's bloody minded attempt to actually deal with the Max Lord thing is hosed over and left unresolved because he got kicked off the title and we had to have a lovely event involving Amazons being straw misandrists Simone: Coming back to the Azzarello point: Simone literally has an arc where she makes fun of the ideas that Azzarello did seriously. The idea of Wonder Woman as the daughter of Zeus, the shift to making everything about the men in the story, the Amazons being man hating barbarians... all of it is there as a JOKE. Jesus Christ this makes me think Azzarello is either so ignorant he didn't even read the run preceding him, or he's such a hack he did read it, and though (apparently some successfully, to be fair) that it was a good idea. That aside, this has a lot of Simone's hallmarks and has the sort of opposite end problem of Rucka's run, where his landing got wobbly because of having to tie-in to stuff, Simone inherited a wobbly premise and has to spend a few issues trying to make it work. The bizarre 'Diana Prince, Agent of Legally Distinct From SHIELD' set up feels incredibly forced and is more or less abandoned after only showing up in about 3 issues, and the return of the Greek gods from... I guess stuff that happened in Infinite Crisis? is a bit goofy. Tom Tresser is an interesting attempt to have a Steve Trevor without getting rid of the at-the-time older Steve married to Etta. And Simone gets about as close as anyone until Wilson at suggesting Diana is at least somewhat queer. Other than some shaky stuff that feels slightly mandated by editorial about how Diana 'doesn't understand mortals', and some hokey jokes (including a really odd 'mother-in-laws really want grandkids' gag with Hippolyta), the stuff with the Amazon Royal Guard is a pretty interesting take and a good way to show that you don't have to completely invalidate the entire Paradise Island premise to have conflict there. Even the Man-azons and Achilles work surprisingly well, despite the faint whiff of #NotAllMen about it. And Achilles works as an interesting attempt to do a male spin-off character to Wonder Woman without overshadowing her the way some other attempts (*cough*Jason*cough*) have done. He's important, he has interesting story beats, but in the end, it's still her actions that are the key to saving the day. *** I do have most of the Perez run available (I've read a bunch of it years ago and loved it, but never finished), the Messner-Loebs/Deodato run and the Byrne run, but I'm gonna take a break and maybe look at some PAD Supergirl or finally read the Knightfall/quest/the third one saga to cleanse the pallete.
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Dec 18, 2020 01:34
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BrianWilly posted:The gods stuff was, unfortunately, a follow up to Countdown to Final Crisis Oh, I forgot about that apparently, I was thinking about the very limp flirting Diana did with Atlantiades in Wilson's stuff.
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Dec 18, 2020 04:34
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and the whole thing where the New Gods had captured the Olympians who eventually got found and freed by, uh, I think Harley Quinn and Mary Marvel?
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Ah, the Doctor Who approach to pacifism "It's OK if the hero arranges the deathtrap, as long as the bad guy is technically the one pulling the trigger"
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Dec 21, 2020 23:59
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The Doctor is basically the Spectre with a quirky sidekick and a sense of humour.
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Dec 22, 2020 04:06
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BrianWilly posted:The Liar Liar thing makes me zone out so hard it's like chloroform. At this point, the rabbit had honestly better turn out to be Dr. Psycho or something. Apparently it was just a rabbit. And maybe symbolic of Emma Lord's inner conflict or something? And good god, the whiplash to having the Amazon embassy be a thing when you could've been forgiven for thinking that they'd just ignored that Orlando set that up entirely for the last 3 arcs. Also, I know I said I was taking some time to clear my pallete, and I kinda did by reading a bunch of Black Panther and Spider-Man, so back to Oops All Amazons. I re-read Wonder Woman Year One plus am starting to go through the Perez run (I've read the early sections a couple of times, but not for years and years) and it's fascinating to do both with the hindsight of the rest of my little project. It's incredibly clear that the best of the later runs pull from the general tone and lore that Perez and his collaborators set up, and the worse ones just ignore that in a vain attempt to 'make WW relevant'. Simone used the Colltus, Rucka's original run pulled a lot from the door to the underworld under the island, Wilson's run pulled a lot on the mother-child themes that Perez made use of. (Also found it amusing that Rucka comes back, all of a sudden Io the blacksmith pops back up on Themyscira, always wearing her apron so you can tell it's her) Year One is also hella gay, but in that way where I can feel DC editorial standing over Nicola Scott's drawing table in case she drew two women holding hands in a way that was too les. We got the mentioned-earlier--in-the-thread mention of Diana's ex back home, a bunch of Amazons including the afore-mentioned Io drooling over Diana (which seems a little weird when they'd all have watched her grow up... I dunno...), Etta and Cheetah flirting, and Diana's two moms. It is however very clear that DC are cool with WW being queer in the way that lets them get cred for being progressive but any depiction of her actually romantically involved with a woman is basically off-limits. (The one scene she has with Kasia, her apparent gf on the island, is explicitly presented in dialogue with the other women being unsure if they're even a couple, and it's only confirmed they were several issues later when Diana's alone) Perez's first doze or so issues are incredibly tight, barring some slightly clumsy go-to turns of phrase that remind me of Simon Furman's Transformers, and a really unfortunate depiction of Barbara Minerva's manservant as a completely cringeworthy Indian stereotype. That part is probably the one really problematic element in the whole of that early run. You can argue that they could've done better in terms of ethnic diversity among the Amazons, but I'd chalk that up to unconscious bias on the creative team's part. Euboea and Phillipus are two of the more prominent Amazons and are clearly not white, it's just a little disappointing that that attention didn't extend to background characters. Just everything in the run is done with a purpose in terms of reinventing and updating the concept and tying everything together with a stronger, more rounded connection to the myths, setting up the Bana Mighdall in like the first issue, the stuff with Diana Trevor, weaving the older Trevor into things to keep him in play but sidestepping the temptation to make the whole book about Wonder Woman and Her Boyfriend (read any Silver Age WW issue and I promise you the plot is 'WW has to avoid Steve proposing or she'll have to become a homemaker'). Even Vanessa Kapetelis is much less annoying than that type of kid character can tend towards. And Myndi Mayer is a supporting character that I wish made it into more retellings/adaptations. The simplicity of having Diana meet this cut-throat media agent... and she's actually on the level about wanting to help Diana get her message out and help the world, is kind of delightful.
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Dec 22, 2020 23:56
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frameset posted:It's such a minor thing, but I wish they'd go back to calling Batman/Superman "World's Finest" instead. Honestly, I think that wouldn't play well today, given that name is basically calling Bats and Supes cops.
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Dec 26, 2020 00:45
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Uhhhh... I have some bad news... Well, yes, but I'm not sure DC are gonna want the thinkpieces that go along with launching a book with a title that explicitly calls attention to that aspect of them. Edit: Or maybe just I don't because I can imagine The Discourse about it. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Dec 26, 2020 |
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Dec 26, 2020 01:19
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Plus the series came about in the Silver Age where they were doing stuff like having Batman literally being an officially deputised officer of the GCPD and stuff.
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Dec 26, 2020 03:45
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It's very weird after about a decade of the DCU almost revolving around the GLs because Johns loved Hal so much, to have 2 Green Lantern titles that are basically nothing to do with the rest of the line.
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Dec 28, 2020 18:24
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Was the New 52 and on Earth 2 stuff any good? I see Tom Taylor wrote the book for a while, and I generally like his stuff.
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Dec 30, 2020 19:16
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Lord_Hambrose posted:WHY ON EARTH ARE ALL THE SPECULATORS GOING WILD FOR JINNY HEX #1 TODAY? I don't get modern speculation, she was in a cancelled book that was somewhat popular but ultimately sold poorly. That was supposed to read 'N52 era Earth 2' but i typed it on phone quickly while on the can so...
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Dec 30, 2020 22:59
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They... might be doing something with him in Future State? I think?
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Dec 31, 2020 03:23
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nunsexmonkrock posted:I have to ask. Am I the only one who liked the azzarelo chang wonder woman run during new 52?. That is the run that got me back into comics. It was definitely well liked at the time and has a lot of fans even now, so sorry if my little rants earlier made it seem otherwise. I, however, just feel like Azzarello fundamentally misunderstands the character and her setting so for me the run is basically running with it's ankles tied together. I'm not even sure it was a good thing for the character in general, because it's one of those cases where the more aggressive changes were never going to stick, and so you end up with a run that isn't that representative of the characte. So as a one-off series, it's great, but from DC's side, it's not making Wonder Woman fans, it's making AZZARELLO's Wonder Woman fans.
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Jan 2, 2021 00:14
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Honestly, as much as I dislike the daughter of Zeus thing, the poo poo he did with the Amazons is probably the worst part and basically necessitated Rucka's retconning it to being fake. It'd be like revealing the Kents were secretly child molesters and Clark's good memories were all him repressing their abuse, it basically ruins like 95% of the point of the character for the sake of being an edgelord.
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Jan 2, 2021 00:41
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Two Tone Shoes posted:It's a good Xena comic but a really, really bad Wonder Woman comic. Honestly... yeah, before all the Abrahamic stuff crept in, the end-game for Xena being killing her (probably) father and taking his place as god of war would've been pretty sweet.
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Jan 2, 2021 00:47
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Also, wasn't Orion's whole thing in that book being a 'charming' misogynist, objectifying Diana but getting waved off with a "oh, he doesn't mean it"? Not sure that plays in 2021. Not sure it SHOULD have played in 2012. The thing that mostly winds me up now, though, is that everything Azzarello supposedly brought to the table that was original? Had been done not just before on the character, but pretty recently, relative to the reboot. Like in the previous 5 years or so. Edit: Ack, OK, there's a lot of things to dislike, but at the end of the day, like what you like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jan 2, 2021 |
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Jan 2, 2021 00:52
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Cael posted:I liked Azzarello's run back when it was first going, but like people said if I went back with a 2021 lens I'd probably like it less and view it a little more critically. For the first part, god no, the Finches took over after he and Chiang left and were probably worse, but in a more forgettable way. Rucka's Rebirth run is excellent, and I like Wilson's run more and more as I think about it. And Steve Orlando, while he has some tics that bugged me, was pretty solid and set up a lot of the stuff that seems to be running through Future State/Infinite Frontier.
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Jan 2, 2021 01:32
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TwoPair posted:At this point like half the New 52 is an Elseworld so I guess everything worked out in the end I... I think the idea now is everyone got smushed together like N52 Clark and Lois did with the old school Kents? (I did laugh when Rucka took like 8 pages out from his Lois book to explain why Vic Sage was alive again but Montoya is also still the Question)
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Jan 2, 2021 01:47
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Barry Convex posted:having not read that much of the second Rucka run, what was the device he used to retcon out the Azzarello run? He didn't retcon it out, but his new Year One basically sets up that once Diana left Themyscira, the gods removed it's location from her mind, so she's never been back, and the Amazons and gods we saw before are actually defences protecting the island. He did leave it vague enough and skipped Diana's childhood so future writers could ignore the Zeus origin... except Robinson went whole hog on it, and it's mentioned often enough since that I think DC editiorial may have it as mandatory to establish because it's the origin in the films. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jan 2, 2021 |
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Jan 2, 2021 01:55
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JordanKai posted:2022: Batman: Year One film with Robert Pattinson Well they've got David Ayer on speed-deal so he can ogle whoever plays Vicky Vale with the camera.
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Jan 5, 2021 02:58
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Isn't the rumour that this is them burning off the first arc of the books that were supposed to be the new slate before DiDio got canned? I have to hand it to Dan for at least having a bold idea if nothing else, actually doing something daring (even the New 52 wasn't daring, it was 'lets put the genies back in the bottle and put everything back to square one like in COIE') is rare.
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Jan 6, 2021 02:03
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Isn't the new Batman not Luke but his brother? Or was that a red herring and lol it's the Fox kid that was already a Bat? And isn't there a new Flash in the Justice League book?
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Jan 6, 2021 03:19
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I'm not reading the Bat-titles right now, but I thought JT4 brought in an obscure other son of Lucius in a really unsubtle 'this is definitely the guy that's gonna be Batman' esque way a few issues ago?
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Jan 6, 2021 03:31
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BrianWilly posted:Again, based on this issue alone it's strongly suggested Luke is Batman, right down to him sharing Batman's text boxes; if it does turn out that Tim/Jace is Batman, it would have to be a misdirect to the degree that many of Luke's on-panel narration was coming from his brother instead. It's not outright impossible, but until you mentioned it I didn't even consider it. I think you probably just didn't fall for the red herring and it never registered for you that it was gonna be anyone but Luke. Honestly, the better set-up for this kind of thing is the new Green Power Ranger in the Boom Studios books, because all the possible candidates for that are characters that have been floating around the titles for dozens of issues.
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Jan 6, 2021 03:52
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Once again, because he makes Bats "too old"
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Jan 6, 2021 13:57
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FS Wonder Woman was a fine in media res start, basically playing it as if this was just the next arc in an ogoing. And I quite liked the main story in Superman, especially as it's less Red Son and more Jon did this as a stopgap and oh poo poo it was Brainiac's plan all along. Not sure about the backups, Mr Miracle was fine but seems to clash with the situation presented in Guardian- which had great art but kind of a b lah story and kind of assumes you know this is the Morrison version of Guardian? Sensational Wonder Woman suffered from the solicits basically giving away the twist (although it's hardly a shock if you know the villain in question) Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jan 6, 2021 |
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Jan 6, 2021 19:07
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah, it's kind of a shame this isn't the ongoing. Isn't it the same writer, though? She could definitely incorporate some of those elements.
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Jan 6, 2021 22:29
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Wonder Woman 100% reads like Jones is just doing the first issue of a run in an ongoing series.
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Jan 7, 2021 17:57
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Blockhouse posted:The storylines present in the Future State books are going to be continuing (or I guess starting) in the core books, so the Magistrate will be a thing coming up in the Bat-books, Teen Titans Academy has Red X, Future State Wonder Woman is going to be starting in a Wonder Girl book, etc etc. Do we know that last one? I figured it was gonna be the backup in Wonder Woman, but that's a more normal Wonder Girl story it sounds like, in so far as being Diana as a teenager.
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Jan 17, 2021 02:46
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And Tim is the Robin in Future State Robin Eternal (I think the girls are in that also?)
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Jan 20, 2021 14:33
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Yeah, most response I've seen has been in favour of them as besties, and not in the 'teehee' euphemism way.
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Jan 20, 2021 19:21
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There's actually a timeline in the back of the books, i think. But yeah, they're not concurrent. I think Dark Detective is the earliest and obviously Immortal Wonder Woman is the latest.
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Jan 21, 2021 01:57
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JordanKai posted:I hate that! But he gave the same explanation so it must be true. I'm pretty sure that Brad Garrett somehow got away with pronouncing it like that on the DCAU shows.
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Feb 3, 2021 00:53
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Honestly, if the YJ reboot had been Teen Lantern, Jinny Hex, Damian, Jonathan, maybe Naomi as the big sister type and throw in one of the Shazam kids, boom, you've got a title that hits the feel of the original, instead of just having to be 'the original line up', which immediately kills the original purpose. It's basically the bad kind of nostalgia-driven reboot, where it's 'let's literally make it the thing I miss', instead of 'let's capture the FEEL of the thing I miss, but with today's tools'.
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Feb 11, 2021 02:32
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