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This is the German team thread! If you are on the American team, stop reading now! If you’re wondering what this is, see this thread. L’Abbaye Blanche August 8, 1944 It has been a harrowing two weeks since the Americans broke our lines at St. Lo and began their relentless drive south. The opposing German divisions are battered and exhausted, and the entire German front in France is threatened with collapse. But we are not beaten yet; the Fuhrer himself has ordered a transfer of panzer forces from eastern Normandy in order form a powerful counterattack. Operation Luttich will reverse our fortunes by pushing to Avranches and cutting off the American spearhead! Yesterday, August 7th, our attack smashed or encircled the frontline American units. The town of Mortain is ours and a cut off battalion to the east will shortly be annihilated. There is a small annoyance, however; an American force on the northern outskirts has held a salient cutting the critical road between Mortain and St. Barthelemey. Repeated attempts to advance down this road yesterday were driven back by withering anti-tank fire.  This morning, elements of the 2nd SS “Das Reich” Panzer Division are resolved to break this thorn its side. You must take command to eliminate the enemy roadblock and render the two north-south roads usable by the division. Your forces consist of armor and infantry elements assaulting the salient from both north and south. The enemy encountered yesterday consisted of infantry with ample heavy weapons, dug in around a stone medieval abbey. Massive allied air attacks have impaired our operational schedule since the launch of Luttich, so expect your forces to trickle in irregularly. Army HQ expects the Americans will resume their intense bombing as soon as the morning fog has lifted. We believe the Americans were busy overnight hardening their perimeter. Some approaches may be strongly fortified. Observe the enemy defenses and select your attack routes carefully. German Forces Your initial force consists of the following from 2nd SS Panzer Division. 4th SS Panzer-Grenadier Regiment “Der Fuhrer”
PSW 222 Recon Car Air attacks have clogged the roads and caused confusion in the division, delaying the remainder of 9 Kompanie along with elements of the 2nd SS Panzer Regiment. The rest of the pioneers were dispatched during the night to approach the salient from the north, and with luck will arrive in time to join the attack. The Map! The map is 1200m x 896m, covering an area just north of Mortain. It’s a real place and not hard to find in google if you’re so inclined!   Here’s the map walkthrough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv6DyAhBV9Q And an overview of your units and deployment zone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cPFWKVFN7w Map conditions are dry and hazy. Objective Your goal is to break the roadblock and render Highways 2 and 3 safe for the division to continue its advance. You get no points for inflicting casualties. Be aware that the American objectives are structured differently than yours!
South Bridge - 150VP Hamlet - 150VP North Bridge - 150VP Reinforcements There will be multiple reinforcement waves over the course of the match. I’ll let you know when reinforcements are imminent and reveal what they are at least one update in advance so you have some time to prepare. Discord: https://discord.gg/AUQQwGd Ask for Axis role. Save File: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JlAmQ2GmSjKmElkf9t-shynYn0sTeAEY Password: hamburg This file is unofficial. The Americans will do their setup first and then turn the official file over to you. Roll20: https://app.roll20.net/join/4163695/_tZu3g Orders: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1xw2R9i3fktis59tRyoJWGkgBcG9xhsl_dJX09mojNgk/edit#gid=0 Fray fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jan 21, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 18:57
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| # ? May 3, 2024 21:54 |
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Jaguar has volunteered to lead you all. If anyone else wants to throw their hat in the ring, speak up now! Figure out your positions and start planning. I've asked the Americans to get the official save to you by Friday night.
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Jan 16, 2019 19:22
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I'd like to claim the lone scout car please.
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Jan 16, 2019 19:23
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Dibs on the pioneers.
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Jan 16, 2019 19:27
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I'll take one of the Mechanised Panzergrenadier units please. Initial thoughts just from this: We have a lot of mobility right now and it sounds like the Americans are going to get CAS later on in the mission. I don't want to just say "rush at the start", that's how all Goon games are lost, but instead we can think of our force as one that's able to shift around the battlefield very quickly in the early game. We can spread out early to get a good scouting position, identify enemy weak areas and then re-concentrate and smash them. FrangibleCover fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 20:00
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I'll take overall armored command and we can divvy the exact units out once we know how many German tankers there are.
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Jan 16, 2019 20:12
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Sign me up for the other Panzer Grenadier units please.
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Jan 16, 2019 20:40
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Here's about what our roster looks like so far, with units that arrive as reinforcements in brackets. These aren't set in stone yet, so if you feel like you missed out we can switch roles around a bit by negotiation. Force command - my own sweet self -9 Company command - --1 Zug - Frangible cover --2 Zug - McBagpipes --(3 Zug) - -(Pioneer Company command) --1 Zug - Dublish --(2 Zug) - --(3 Zug) - -Armoured Comany - Saros (Might take direct command of a unit depending on numbers) - Scout car + any reinforcing light vehicles - Koolkevz -- Stug Command -- Stug Command -- (Reinforcing tanks) -- (Reinforcing tanks) Ideally I'd like to have armoured company players controlling 2-3 vehicles each but it just depends what turns up, and I may end up splitting them in a task based way anyway. I don't see much point in having 2 layers of command for the single starting pioneer platoon, but as soon as the other platoons arrive, we'll have a player act as company commander. Unassigned players: Malick23 Infantry Oystertoadfish Reinforcement glynnenstein no preference Hubis V weapons simplefish I'll take whatever pthighs anything but command And finally I haven't confirmed who's taking care of our order inputting and videos, but Glynnenstein is with us, and we'll probably have one of the other 3 guys who signed up for the job as well.
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Jan 16, 2019 22:06
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I'll take the final panzer grenadier unit
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Jan 16, 2019 22:48
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I'll take some reinforcing armor - I'll stick around even if not involved at the start.
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Jan 16, 2019 22:51
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I will be doing inputs and videos unless anyone objects. I did it for the German team during Abong's game some years back and it was cool and good. 
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Jan 17, 2019 01:21
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I'll take whatever is left, if you need a company co that's the preferred job for me.
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Jan 17, 2019 02:52
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Stug Lyfe please
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Jan 17, 2019 03:06
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^^^^ above assignments sound good to me, Hob you can run the Grenadier company. I'm deep into planning. Here's what we know so far: Ground: To me the abbey is the key terrain of the whole map. The enemy is thought to be there, it's well fortified and it slows access to the west side of the map. And of course it's a yellow square that gives us points. We can approach using the woods to the SE, but they might also be defended. There are a few narrow firelanes that with infantry security would make good places for the stugs to sit back and blast away. The high plateau where we start also needs further study, some routes away from it will be more exposed than others, and the elevation in general of the map makes a huge difference if you make use of it. Enemy: What we know about the enemy: They are about 1/2 to 2/3 our strength (From the signup roster, and it's about what the Germans could expect historically in an attack anyway) I would say that the core of the enemy is likely to be a rifle company, they don't tend to vary a lot other than morale and experience. Going from the briefing text we can expect a number of bazookas and AT guns everywhere, so anywhere the stugs go is going to need to be sanitized first by infantry. I don't expect tanks at first but it is a possibility. I think it's more likely some will turn up at some point as reinforcements on the west side of the map. Mortar fire is likely but probably to be fairly light, so good spacing should prevent serious casualties. And of course there's a known fighter bomber risk which will could come into play any time from about 30' onwards. Starting tanks will throw a spanner in the works, if that happens we will have to change our strategy to one where we probe for weakness and attack in small, concentrated hits. Mines are a possibility, especially near bridges, so we really need to get troops up close and stationary before we send tanks across. If that's not an option, then consider fording instead. Friendly forces: Looks like we've got a decent infantry force, well armed and professional. In this AT infested terrain I would be very careful about advancing in their halftracks, but they still can be put to good use as mobile machine gun nests that can sit 200m back from their infantry and hose an enemy position. The trucks I don't see much use for, but they could be handy if we need to pull a squad from one flank to the other quickly. Our Stugs are going to be interesting to deal with. They don't react well to ambushes or duking it out with tanks, but are better at ambushing or being bought into a secure spot to beat the hell out of enemy strongpoints, which is the main role I see for them this game. And finally there's our armoured car. Like our halftracks, it's armour is OK against infantry as long as they keep their distance. I see this thing's role as less zooming down roads and more wending it's way around forests on the periphery, taking the time to stop and observe, getting eyes onto our objectives at odd angles and finding paths for our larger vehicles. It also makes a useful support vehicle that our leg troops can call in for mid level obstacles such as an enemy squad in a wooden house. So far we haven't heard if we get any artillery. Hopefully we do! If we do, we'll probably use some of it on smoke depending on where we're approaching from. The rest will be on call. Note that mortars are unlikely to be effective on the abbey buildings, I presume they are stone. Overall strategy: There's three basic options I'm looking at. The first is the all out assault. We take our starting troops and advance to secure two sides of the abbey, leaving the minimum possible troops to guard our flanks. Then we bring our stugs into lanes where they can breach the walls and collapse the sides of the buildings and take the complex using multiple breaches.  Pros: We'll almost certainly take the abbey, it's close to our start and so we can afford to scout the approaches properly, finding the enemy positions with the minimum losses. Cons: It's an inflexible plan, so if it turns into a meat grinder it's harder to break off and try something else. It pushes our forces closer together, making a fat target for artillery, and it's inefficient, as we don't really use our mechanized forces to best effect or have any support for the engineer reinforcements coming down from the north. The balanced plan commits a grenadier platoon to clear the approaches to the abbey and the engineer platoon to supply reserves and create breaches. They'll rely on the Stugs to overcome pockets of resistance. Grenadier 3 should arrive at about the right time to provide the assault teams that penetrate the abbey itself. The second grenadier platoon and most of the light armour then proceeds north to find flank positions on the abbey, crossing points on the river, clearing lightly defended positions near the northern objectives and linking up with the engineer reinforcements which can then clear southwards and surround the abbey. I am currently leaning toward this option.  Pros: Secures more firing positions, better map control, can adjust the assault forces based on how spread out the enemy is, north reinforcements get into the action quicker, makes it harder for the enemy to site their AT assets Cons: Slow and cautious approach to the abbey required, more patience required on the part of players What if the Abbey isn't as important as we think? Then we can bypass it. This is the off the wall goony plan where we manoeuvre around the main strength of the enemy and finally descend on the abbey corner from all angles. It's worth thinking about what could be achieved with a bit of creative thinking, even if this isn't likely to be the final plan.  Pros: Confuses the enemy, dominates the map, gives us an easy ride on the secondary objectives. Cons: A few guns can hold up the advance, takes a long time to manoeuvre to anywhere useful, The enemy may figure it out and redeploy or counter attack Feedback: Fray: What can we expect in the way of artillery? What is the maximum time allowed? Everyone else: Thoughts? Now is the best time to get them considered for the plan.
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Jan 17, 2019 13:37
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The absolute last thing we want to do is fight the Americans in the forests. They have much better close range firepower and integral platoon mortars and AT guns concealed in forests are almost impossible to spot until they start shooting which means dead vehicles. It's also likely that the allies have foxholes, barbed wire and mines which they will seed all over the roads as much of the forest is impassable to vehicles. The wall is the really interesting part, it means their options for AT coverage inside the abbey are mediocre at best so they will have to be deployed outside the walls. I think the best way to take advantage of this is to swing north with the PzGren and collapse on the Abbey. it gives longer sight-lines which advantages us enormously with our better squad level MG's and the larger amount of ways to advance means less chokepoints for our tanks to run afoul of ambushes and mines.  Tanks would largely be supporting 9/2.
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Jan 17, 2019 14:03
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Map dude: please draw me two circles around the southern building marked with red circle. One with 150 meter radius, other with 300 meter radius. Please use different colors. Please also draw similar circles around North Bridge.  (map key: blue are our defensive setups, green is general advance in phase 1, red is infantry advance in phase 2, yellow is armor advance in phase 3) 150 meters is the optimum range for American riflemen. 300 meters is optimum for our MG42. Anything longer than 300m heavily benefits us, anything shorter than 150m the Americans. This goes double for StuGs and triple for halftracks. Abbey is obviously the key to the south because once you have it, you can sweep the rest of the objectives with machine gun fire from heavy cover from the south. But it's a veritable fortress and I don't think we can take it in a direct assault from south. Approaching it is a pain since it is heavy cover for the current residents and there are few to no good lines of fire for support. We also have no indirect fire assets to support us, either with smoke or pinning down the defenders. Both southern approaches (road and the circled building) are sure to be covered by AT, machine gun and other defensive assets. I'm almost certain a direct approach is doomed to fail. At best it is very risky and requires too much luck. I'm also not in support of splitting up our assets and I feel I need to be precise here. We can have our troops physically anywhere as long as they can shoot at whatever the others are shooting at; anything that does not do this is considered "splitting". Thus, balanced plan is out. It would split half our troops into direct assault and half into taking up support positions further north. Neither group can support each other. All our troops seem to be motorized and we have a lot of ranged firepower. Making a large scale end run is possible. We can also overpower a lone AT gun, even if we eat a few casualties doing so. Once long-range AT defenses are gone, our StuGs are nigh-invulnerable and we can mass a lot of MG fire from halftracks. So, if terrain permits I would commit the entire force to move at high speed towards the bridge near Dairy Farm. Infantry crosses the bridge. StuGs form into firing positions to support. Halftracks and MG teams take positions around railyard, then we approach northern bridge in cover of the forest. Any enemy movement should come under fire from our troops. If there is a shootout, we shoot it out. Otherwise we do a long hook with StuGs and approach the North Bridge directly from north road while infantry covers all southern approaches. Once North Bridge falls we should have excellent fields of fire all over southern defenders. We can chew them up with direct fires and approach with infantry to finish them up once no one shoots back. Keep in mind that we can shell buildings even without knowing precisely where the defenders are and we have a lot of ammo for machine guns to keep heads down. This plan requires commitment. There's no room for half-measures and there's no backing out if it starts to go wrong. But I don't see any other approach which allows us the long lines of fire we need to have an advantage. So I suggest we go with the third option. Plan the support well, take up the dominant terrain and leapfrog from there. Bypass the abbey.
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Jan 17, 2019 15:02
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The only thing I'm worried about is whether getting up to Dairy Farm would be too exposed across the valley. Someone with a better understanding of terrain would be able to reassure me though, I'm sure. I agree with keeping our forces able to support each other
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Jan 17, 2019 15:06
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simplefish posted:The only thing I'm worried about is whether getting up to Dairy Farm would be too exposed across the valley. Someone with a better understanding of terrain would be able to reassure me though, I'm sure. That's sort of the point. If they can see us, we can see them. But we have more guns and at least some of their guns are initially pointed the wrong way. We lose some of ours, take out the enemy gun and have free reign.
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Jan 17, 2019 15:47
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simplefish posted:The only thing I'm worried about is whether getting up to Dairy Farm would be too exposed across the valley. Someone with a better understanding of terrain would be able to reassure me though, I'm sure. That is absolutely my biggest concern with moving everyone straight north. That's a long way to travel in the open, and if this were a point-buy game there would absolutely be a TRP on North Bridge. Time isn't really a concern for us, and I think we can afford to poke at the south and test their defenses a bit before committing to the north. I'm more in favor of Jaguars' balanced plan. Bonus points if we can keep them guessing whether we'll focus north or south as long as possible.
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Jan 17, 2019 16:33
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:I will be doing inputs and videos unless anyone objects. I did it for the German team during Abong's game some years back and it was cool and good. We'll be exchanging the files through a discord channel. Get on and I'll put you in it.
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Jan 17, 2019 17:22
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I don't see the point of poking south. We'll lose people for no gain: do we really have to verify that the south approach is covered? Because it surely is, and I'm willing to bet Americans are dropping maybe two squads worth of troops in forward positions in hopes of catching us by surprise if we blunder blindly through the forest. Canadian paras did exactly that against Germans and wiped out German numerical superiority in one turn. There's also a chance of minefields and other such traps since the briefing tells us the position is fortified. We can't do anything about the sightlines on the way north since we don't have smoke (unless StuGs carry a few shells?) But consider our advantages: all our troops are mechanized, we have a ton of machine guns and 75mm fire available and we should be able to overpower their AT for at least a moment while they relocate their AT guns, tanks or what have they. We'll lose something but so will they and we will gain the good ground we want. More importantly we will have the range advantage and how many ranged AT assets can they have anyway? If we're not willing to take that risk I'd rather commit fully to south but that means we won't be able to leverage StuGs in any meaningful way. The plan I like the least is sending StuGs north and infantry south because then the defense becomes very easy to organize. It's also essentially impossible to organize our troops in mutual support after that.
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Jan 17, 2019 17:35
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I mean, we have a dedicated scout unit. Seems we could send that North to find out what's going on before committing to a plan, just have the rest of the troops move up to a staging area before a point of no return We're mobile, the American are dug-in. We can afford a couple of minutes to find out what's what before barreling in headfirst.
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Jan 17, 2019 17:48
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simplefish posted:We're mobile, the American are dug-in. We can afford a couple of minutes to find out what's what before barreling in headfirst. Exactly. The objective is to un-interdict the highway, and I imagine we can spend a few turns looking for a better way to do that than sending our entire force driving up the interdicted highway.
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Jan 17, 2019 17:56
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Hob_Gadling posted:We can't do anything about the sightlines on the way north since we don't have smoke (unless StuGs carry a few shells?) But consider our advantages: all our troops are mechanized, we have a ton of machine guns and 75mm fire available and we should be able to overpower their AT for at least a moment while they relocate their AT guns, tanks or what have they. We'll lose something but so will they and we will gain the good ground we want. More importantly we will have the range advantage and how many ranged AT assets can they have anyway? Stugs may have three smoke shells each but they aren't anything to write home about. Depends on the exact model. The hedgerows in the south-east along the are actually pretty good cover for infantry and allow us to deploy fairly far north before we hit no-cover open ground. My plan is basically a holding force in the south and we send up forces avoiding direct LoS from the west/suspected allied positions as much as possible while the pioneers work south to link up with us. Once we have a contiguous front we assault the abbey and surrounds from the NE where we can focus our superior long range firepower.
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Jan 17, 2019 18:13
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Can pioneers blast holes in the abbey walls?
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Jan 17, 2019 18:29
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dublish posted:Can pioneers blast holes in the abbey walls? Yes, they can use the "blast" command to move into a building (or to another room) through the wall with explosives. Super useful as anyone on the other side will be stunned and overwhelmed. Edit: Also chiming in to say that I like the idea of bypassing the Abbey, but I'll have to take a look at the terrain video again, as driving in the open like that makes me really nervous. Can we load the map int the demo? pthighs fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 19:37
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I like the idea of going around north, especially given that the current 500m distance between our start and our primary objective while the map has thrice that vertical room basically screams GIGANTIC TRAP to me. However, I'm quite concerned about ATGs in the hamlet. We know from the briefing that they're positioned to interdict Highway 3, which is only possible using ATGs or armour from their known positions. I think we should be quite circumspect in our approach and allow dismounted infantry to lead the advance as much as possible instead of just hooning around at top speed in our halftracks and StuGs.
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Jan 17, 2019 19:55
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No idea if the map can be loaded in the demo or not but multiple of us own the game so map checks can be made at any time. Also, keep in mind the scenario is probably sixty to ninety minutes, we have time to scout. I know it ain't glamorous and it's boring but the objective is to make contact with the smallest force possible. We have the benefit of omnipotence so if we suicide charge two guys in (do not loving do this) we gain their knowledge regardless of whether they die.
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Jan 17, 2019 20:14
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Jaguars! posted:Fray: What can we expect in the way of artillery? What is the maximum time allowed?
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Jan 17, 2019 20:32
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I wonder if they're expecting any of our infantry reinforcements to come from the north.
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Jan 17, 2019 21:25
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dublish posted:I wonder if they're expecting any of our infantry reinforcements to come from the north. I wonder if we are
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Jan 17, 2019 21:28
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simplefish posted:I wonder if we are I'll be a very lonely pioneer if we aren't.
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Jan 17, 2019 21:32
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If we go with a bypass plan, then use of terrain becomes even more vital. I traced these contours off opentopomap, so they are a general guide, not necessarily a representation of what it in the game map. Hopefully we can sort a more reliable heightmap when we get into detail planning. Dashed contours are guesses based on what I could see in the video. The Screened crossing is infantry only. So, what do we get out of plan bypass? Basically we're hoping to reduce our casualties by becoming more unpredictable. One instant benefit is that it'll nullify a whole bunch of fixed fortifications. However, make no mistake, we will still be attacking a strong position and casualties are to be expected. We pick up some nice standoff positions and should be able to link up to the engineers to dominate a lot of the map. We change our attack on the abbey from a shock and awe assault into a siege. We should be able to concentrate force on peripheral units. On the other hand we lose time, and while we have lots of it, there are still a couple of problems with moving too slowly. First, there's mention of fighter-bombers in the briefing and if we waste too much time we could start losing our biggest assets to them. The US could also potentially get reinforcements, a pair of Shermans turning up could really put a cramp on our style. It's these unknowns that concern me the most. For these reasons I'll certainly be watching the time element closely. Having the rest of the force dribble in from two directions at unknown times is going to be interesting. We'll need to prevent the enemy from probing or counterattacking our deploy but this could be very efficient, as little as a squad divided into listening posts and a couple of halftracks sitting back in support. At all events, some small force is necessary so that 3 Zug and whatever the hell else turns up can zoom past and catch up with the spearhead. Sounds like the engineers will be a while coming too and so we should do what we can to secure ground that allows them to come south rapidly.
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Jan 18, 2019 13:36
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Didn't someone used to have a script that can be run on a high-resolution version of the editor map and automatically generate contour lines?
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Jan 18, 2019 14:19
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Yeah at the very least a high-res version of the terrain-type map so we can see what are hedges/hedgrerows and what's just fences.
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Jan 18, 2019 15:19
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Saros posted:Yeah at the very least a high-res version of the terrain-type map so we can see what are hedges/hedgrerows and what's just fences. I pinned the actual map file on discord if you all want to make more screens. The map size is kind of awkward for taking good shots on my own monitor.
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Jan 18, 2019 17:35
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Can I open the map in the editor without spoiling anything? I believe the way they did it was to take up close screens of the editor map and stitch them together. I don't mind doing it but I don't want to ruin the fun. Perhaps an observer could do it if your setup makes it difficult.
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Jan 18, 2019 17:43
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:Can I open the map in the editor without spoiling anything? I believe the way they did it was to take up close screens of the editor map and stitch them together. I don't mind doing it but I don't want to ruin the fun. The file that I pinned in open-chat on discord is safe. It's nothing but the map. Made sure to strip out objectives and deployment zones too.
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Jan 18, 2019 17:46
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Jaguars! posted:
Thanks for the awesome map!
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Jan 19, 2019 04:41
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| # ? May 3, 2024 21:54 |
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Fray, just a quick question - I think I know the answer already, but to clarify: Running test simulations is not allowed, right? Say if one team knows "they probably have a tank over there x hundred metres away," and one player with the game recreates this in their own custom map editor or whatever, so they can tell their team "if we have our tank here it penetrates 8 shots out of 10" or "we know they have this type of infantry over here, if we run our guys round the corner we should be able to get thr drop on them with minimal casualties, more often than not" This was an issue a few games ago and it always felt very very gamey. I know with Discord it might be harder to catch happening but could you make an official ruling? simplefish fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jan 19, 2019 |
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Jan 19, 2019 04:49
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