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Dreylad posted:having an entire section of your society want to be removed from it as much as possible, barley participate in the national army or other institutions, and yet have increasingly greater control over the country's politics strikes me as a recipe for a slow rolling disaster, and that's setting aside Palestine. *  s aristocratically*
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Feb 2, 2019 22:11
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OP could you (or one of the other israeli posters in the thread) talk about how arab israelis feel about the israeli-palestinian conflict (and vice versa)
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Feb 2, 2019 22:18
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get that OUT of my face posted:the grass is browner and more rotten on the other side. i temper my attitude by checking out the news of countries that also have terrible national politics how do you have the time, there's so many
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Feb 2, 2019 22:54
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My Cuck Dad posted:The ultra-Orthos in Brooklyn are mostly Hasidim, which are Haredim. But not all Haredim are Hasidim. If Haredim are on par with evangelical Christianity, Hasidim are on par with the Branch Davidians.
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Feb 2, 2019 23:00
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:please dont poo poo up this thread too much folx.
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Feb 2, 2019 23:20
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:please dont poo poo up this thread too much folx. *rides into thread IDFishly on a skunk and sprays in all directions*
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Feb 2, 2019 23:25
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get that OUT of my face posted:
Zionism back then was the idea of having our own country. It was a bunch of jews who saw that poo poo's hosed and decided to go to Palestine to create a life without the fear of antisemitism and pogroms. Here we're talking about between the years 1881-1947. The lands that were bought from the Ottomans back then were swamp-ridden and malaria-infested, so going there with zero experience in agriculture and create something out of nothing was seen as either very brave or very stupid. A lot of the first immigrants held onto socialist and communist ideologies, and those tend to thrive when times are tough. Today the dream essentially came true: no more swamps to drain. No more houses to build. No more lands to farm. We have prosperity. and it sucks. everything is expensive. statistically there is a war every 10 years. the government is corrupt. it's becoming more and more tempting to move abroad. so the Zionist ideal is staying here even though it's poo poo, and to do that you need to build up the idea that Antisemitism is on the rise, the army is the only thing protecting the country, and Judaism is what unites us against the world. Amp up the fear, and say the only solution is that the country will protect you. Also to note: The IDF is the Great Uniter. You finish school and you go to the army. It's an amazing way to meet people you would otherwise never see on your own. You eat a lot of poo poo with these people, and that brings camaraderie. the idea that everyone was a part of it is one of the Ethos of Israel. Army stories are a great ice-breaker when meeting new people because everyone has one. Solar Tornado has issued a correction as of 21:58 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 00:54
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Solar Tornado posted:It's an amazing way to meet people you would otherwise never see on your own. You eat a lot of poo poo with these people, and that brings camaraderie. the idea that everyone was a part of it is one of the Ethos of Israel. Army stories are a great ice-breaker when meeting new people because everyone has one. Pretty great tactic, though, forcing all citizens to be directly complicit in colonialism, rather than just implicated in it, like in the U.S. To be clear I'm 100% not denouncing all Israeli citizens, just the ones who actually support colonialism and genocide.
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Feb 3, 2019 01:17
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from the outside, it looks like all the problems that Israel has as a country (and there are many of them) can be overlooked by its citizens because they have a very convenient Other to bash when things aren't going well. the colonial mentality and militarism are very convenient to tap into frankly, even if Bibi loses, dies, or is jailed, something like liberal or socialist Zionism is going to take a long time to get back to, and even that kind of ideology still has the taint of religion-centric nationalism to it. but i doubt that's going to happen. i can see things actually getting more explicitly theocratic considering the demographics continue to favor the Haredim. and then things will get really hosed if things do manage to get better there, then they will have to get a hell of a lot worse
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Feb 3, 2019 01:35
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Solar Tornado posted:Also to note: The IDF is the Great Uniter. You finish school and you go to the army. It's an amazing way to meet people you would otherwise never see on your own. You eat a lot of poo poo with these people, and that brings camaraderie. the idea that everyone was a part of it is one of the Ethos of Israel. Army stories are a great ice-breaker when meeting new people because everyone has one. 
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Feb 3, 2019 01:40
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have also heard that sephardim vote more right-wing. is that true? i'm thinking of miri regev who i've seen described in the U.S. press as "the sarah palin of israel."
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Feb 3, 2019 01:43
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anyone have any book or Good Author recs? "why does Israel suck now" is not a very good search term and I don't know enough about any of this except, yknow, that Israel likes to play I'm Not Touching You w/ the concept of genocide, to be able to detect the more subtle bad opinion havers. i feel like i should be way more educated on this on account of how often I end up dating jews. would be nice to have a rule other than to completely avoid any discussion about israel (though this is more a them thing than it is a me thing) otoh, that's a very good rule to hold on to even if one is extremely knowledgeable, heh BrutalistMcDonalds posted:on the plus side this probably creates a physical fitness culture. well it certainly seems that way from looking at pics and video of tel aviv pride because hubba hubba lol 
juche avocado has issued a correction as of 01:53 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 01:48
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juche avocado posted:anyone have any book or Good Author recs? "why does Israel suck now" is not a very good search term and I don't know enough about any of this except, yknow, that Israel likes to play I'm Not Touching You w/ the concept of genocide, to be able to detect the more subtle bad opinion havers. https://prospect.org/authors/gershom-gorenberg
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Feb 3, 2019 01:56
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:In addition to the parties currently represented in the Knesset, its worth to keep an eye on former IDF chief Benny Gantz's party Hosen Yisrael (Israel's Resilience) - a "center" (right-wing) party premised on maintaining most current policies, but also respecting democratic institutions, the rule of law and decorum. Focused on opposing corruption in government, or more specifically, opposing the image and rhetoric of Likud. According to polls, this looks to be the main challenger to Likud this time around. let me help you with the election the exact same coalition will take over as now hth
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Feb 3, 2019 06:06
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 Hadash Hebrew: חד"ש – החזית הדמוקרטית לשלום ולשוויון Translation: The Democratic Front for Peace and Equality [Hadash is an abbreviation of the full name, but also the Hebrew word for “new”] Members in Current Knesset: 4, as part of the Joint Arab List Founded In: 1977 Appeals To: Secular Israeli Arabs, Israeli Socialists, Western Tankies History: * To talk about Hadash, we must first talk about a much older party – Maki (מק"י – המפלגה הקומוניסטית הישראלית) the Communist Party of Israel. If you live in a Western European country you likely know exactly what sort of party this is already – a small Marxist-Leninist group supported by the Soviet Union during the Cold War, concentrating primarily on reading communist theory and espousing anti-US rhetoric. * In 1965, Maki split into two – a primarily Jewish faction that supported Zionism in principle, but opposed the Israeli government and a primarily Arab faction that opposed Zionism as a colonialist project of the western bourgeois. The latter faction was the larger and more enduring one, and it is this faction (known as Rekah – רק"ח at that time, though still claiming ownership of the Maki name) that formed the core of Hadash – a common front of various small socialist groups and the Israeli Blank Panthers (though the latter no longer exist). * The larger faction retained the USSR’s support until the latter’s collapse. It holds the dubious honor of being one the few western communist parties to support the Soviet invasion into Czechoslovakia in 1968. It also expressed support for the August Coup against Gorbachev and held an internal vote to determine that the fall of the USSR can be blamed solely on its leader’s “betrayal” rather than any other factors, and expelled party members who advocated for alternative explanations. * However, all of that is in the past. Today, Hadash are a small yet persistent voice advocating for an end to the current de-facto apartheid, the creation of a Palestinian state and the implementation of various socialist policies in Israel proper. Maki’s influence is still evident in some of Hadash’s foreign policy stances, such as its implicit support for Assad’s government in the Syrian civil war, but the bulk of the party’s efforts are concentrated on fighting for the rights of Israeli Arabs. Key Stances: * Withdrawing from all of the Occupied Terrirories and establishing a Palestinian state alongside Israel. * Setting the minimum wage at 60% of the average salary in the market, with an immediate raise to 5,000 NIS a month. * Recognizing the Palestinian Arabs in Israel as an official minority group with protected rights. * Raising child subsidies by 40%. * Reversing the privatization of government industries and resources. * Establishing a social housing program. * Protecting the public healthcare system and preventing the privatization of hospitals. * Ensuring truly free education for all, from kindergartens up to universities. * Creating a democratic constitution that would establish the secular nature of Israel and prohibits discrimination and hate speech on the basis of ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. * Legislating a new Basic Law on equality between the genders. * Resisting the evacuation of unrecognised Bedouin villages within Israel. * Prohibiting official condemnation of Assad’s government or its use of chemical attacks. Leader: MK Ayman Odeh  * Was a member of Banki (בנק"י -ברית הנוער הקומוניסטי בישראל, a communist youth league) in his youth, and was investigated by Shin Bet at the age of 15. * Long time activist for the rights of Israeli Arabs in various NGOs. * Opposes any effort to conscript Israeli Arabs into the IDF or national service. * One of the least wealthy MKs in the current Knesset. * Advocates for non-violent means of Palestinian resistance and condemns the use of violence against civilians, considering it illegitimate and harmful to the Palestinian cause. * “If there is a conflict between identity and citizenship, we support identity.” * Injured in a confrontation with police while protesting against the forceful evacuation of the unrecognised village of Umm al-Hiran in 2017. Candidates in List: * MK Aida Touma-Suleiman – Maki member. Very prominent Arab feminist activist and legislator, known for her establishment of shelters for Arab women and efforts to fight against family “honor killings” in Arab communities. Chairs the Committee on the Status of Women and Gender Equality in the current Knesset. * Dr. Ofer Casif – A new Jewish candidate to replace the retiring MK Dov Hanin. Political Science lecturer in the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, best known for his highly provocative remarks widely publicised in Israeli media calling Minister Ayelet Shaked ‘neo-nazi filth’ and Prime Minister Netanyahu a war criminal. Summary: Socialists fighting for the rights of Israeli Arabs
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Feb 3, 2019 11:04
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While we are on the topic of Maki, I wanted to mention one of David Ben Gurion's slogans - "בלי חירות ומק"י", meaning "without Heirut and Maki" - he said this while putting together the very first coalition and it demonstrates his vision for what the "acceptable" range of views in Israeli politics looked like by establishing limits from the right (Heirut) and the left (Maki). The reason I mention this now is because Likud, which put together the last several coalitions, is Heirut's successor. Meanwhile, from the left side, neither Maki nor Hadash have ever been a part of any government. Just a little historical curiosity.
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Feb 3, 2019 11:23
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thank you for taking the time to list the parties one by one, I knew this would be a good thread 
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Feb 3, 2019 11:29
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:The reason I mention this now is because Likud, which put together the last several coalitions, is Heirut's successor. Meanwhile, from the left side, neither Maki nor Hadash have ever been a part of any government. Just a little historical curiosity.
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Feb 3, 2019 13:08
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Sure. Since the Israeli left is still explicitly Zionist and would keep Israel as the nation of the Jewish people, no party representing Israeli Arabs would join in government with them. However, in the 90's, Arab parties supported Rabin's minority government without formally joining his coalition - think of this as something akin to the Confidence and Supply agreement the Tories have with the DUP in the UK Parliament. In the last election, the Joint Arab List voiced support for having a similar arrangement with Herzog's Zionist Union (a joint electoral list of Labor and Tzipi Livni's party Hatnuah) should they get enough numbers to form government (they did not).
AFancyQuestionMark has issued a correction as of 13:40 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 13:33
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Solar Tornado posted:Zionism back then was the idea of having our own country. It was a bunch of jews who saw that poo poo's hosed and decided to go to Palestine to create a life without the fear of antisemitism and pogroms. Here we're talking about between the years 1881-1947. It was seen as very brave - going to an essentially swamp-ridden, barren land you can't honestly think Palestine was an empty wasteland before the Zionists got there
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Feb 3, 2019 13:53
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:you can't honestly think Palestine was an empty wasteland before the Zionists got there Yeah for some reason hundreds of thousands people were forcibly relocated out this "barren swamp" after the Zionist invasion for lebensraum.
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Feb 3, 2019 14:07
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Looks like Hadash would be the only party CSPAM would support in the Knesset?
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Feb 3, 2019 14:21
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etalian posted:Looks like Hadash would be the only party CSPAM would support in the Knesset? could be. stick with me while i go through each of the parties and find out!
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Feb 3, 2019 14:43
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:could be. stick with me while i go through each of the parties and find out! So there's a Knesset party that support full luxury gay space communism?
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Feb 3, 2019 14:48
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i wish
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Feb 3, 2019 14:50
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:you can't honestly think Palestine was an empty wasteland before the Zionists got there "transformed an arid wasteland to an agriculture miracle" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvs-X5JIVCg Starpluck has issued a correction as of 15:00 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 14:57
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It was pretty clever Zioniest talking point the whole barren/wasteland with no people go transformed into paradise. Reminds of the US manifest destiny idea.
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Feb 3, 2019 15:01
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to be fair, Israel does have some pretty good agriculture stuff
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Feb 3, 2019 15:04
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To be fair, free palestine
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Feb 3, 2019 15:10
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fair
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Feb 3, 2019 15:15
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:
Aside from the Tankie stuff they sound good as hell. Continues my habit of supporting parties with no chance of ever forming a government.
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Feb 3, 2019 16:02
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 Agudat Yisrael Hebrew: אגודת ישראל Translation: Union of Israel Members in Current Knesset: 3, as part of United Torah Judaism Founded In: 1912 Appeals To: Hasidim – a subsection of Ashkenazi Haredim (“Appeals To” in this case means this is the party they vote for. Always.) History: * Agudat Yisrael was founded in 1912 as a direct reaction to the Zionist movement by the Ultra-Orthodox communities of Eastern Europe. The spiritual leaders of these communities viewed Zionism as misguided for various reasons, such as their insistence that no secular country can claim to be Jewish and that the work of Zionist’s would merely enable the further loss of truly Jewish traditions. Their branch in Palestine worked to instill and perpetuate their own set of values and religious customs within the Orthodox communities that chose to settle there. * Nevertheless, as time went on, there were increasing voices from within this organization to cooperate with Zionists and develop the foundation for a future state. This was greatly accelerated by the ruination of Jewish communities across Europe caused by the Holocaust. Many of the original Haredi communities that had started this organization didn’t survive, and those that did transferred themselves over to Mandatory Palestine, and later Israel, by necessity. * After various splits and internal conflicts, Agudat Yisrael eventually decided to support the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. Their representatives appeared alongside the main Zionist political movements in various international conferences and presented a similar vision. Their leaders, though concerned by the secular nature of the future country, believed that if all the Haredi movements were to unite, they would hold significant influence over the new government. * At the outbreak of the Independence War, AY encouraged all able-bodied male Haredim to enlist with the Israeli forces to help secure the future of the Jewish nation, after receiving assurances that allowances would be made to maintain their religious customs at army camps. Subsequently, they negotiated the “status quo agreement” with Ben Gurion, which left “matters of the personal” in Israel under the jurisdiction of religious institutions. * They ran in the very first election and every single election since. Initially, they represented the views of the Hasidi and “Lithuanian” (also known as Mitnagdim) Haredi communities in Israel. In 1988, the “Lithuanians” split off into a new party called Degel Hatorah, and AY remained dominated by Hasidim ever since. * The thing to know about Hasidim, is that they are divided into a bunch of close-knit insular communities called “Courts”, each ruled by a single spiritual leader called the Admor, whose title is usually hereditary. The largest Hasidi Court in Israel by far is called Hasidut Gur (or Ger). It numbers about 50,000 members, is known for its incredibly strict edicts on interpersonal relationships (no being with your spouse in public, sex only twice a week, etc.) and holds immense influence over AY. The first candidate on AY’s list is always from Hasidut Gur. Key Stances: * No women in positions of power. In fact, before a recent Supreme Court decision, women were barred from joining the party. Women are still de-facto banned from joining now, as all prospective members must agree with the principles set out by the party's spiritual leaders, one of which is “no female members”. * No conscription of Haredim into the IDF. * No work on the Sabbath. * No organized female prayer at the Western Wall. * No official recognition of giyur (religious conversion to Judaism) performed by Reform or Conservative Rabbis. * Expansion of funding for Haredi communities. Leader:  * One of the “committee of three” that manages the political and educational aspects of Hasidut Gur on behalf of its Admor. * As MK, chaired the Finance Committee in previous Knessets. * Since the current Minister of Health is Netanyahu himself, Litzman is the one in de-facto control of the Ministry. He used to hold the title of Minister but resigned dramatically over rail expansion work done on Satrudays. In general, AY has a soft-policy of not having its members be Ministers in secular governments. * Supports the legalization and prescription of medical marijuana. * Introduced free dental care for children. * Demands segregation between male and female patients in psychiatrical facilities. * Allegedly got bribed by tobacco companies to vote against various anti-smoking initiatives. Candidates in List: Highly placed men from various other Hasidic Courts representing their Admors, ordered according to the Courts relative size and influence in AY. Summary: Insular Religious Fundamentalists AFancyQuestionMark has issued a correction as of 19:13 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 17:57
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:* The thing to know about Hasidim, is that they are divided into a bunch of close-knit insular communities called “Courts”, each ruled by a single spiritual leader called the Admor, whose title is usually hereditary. The largest Hasidi Court in Israel by far is called Hasidut Gur (or Ger). It numbers about 50,000 members, is known for its incredibly strict edicts on interpersonal relationships (no being with your spouse in public, sex only twice a week, etc.) and holds immense influence over AY. The first candidate on AY’s list is always from Hasidut Gur. God drat literal feudalism lmao quote:* Supports the legalization and prescription of medical marijuana.
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Feb 3, 2019 18:08
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can i get a 18 inch pie with mushrooms onions pepperoni and extra cheese thanks
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Feb 3, 2019 18:10
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Dreddout posted:God drat literal feudalism lmao i suppose i could see how they could appeal. unless you're a woman or an LGBT person, or a non-Haredi Jew (also known as a deluded pretender)
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Feb 3, 2019 18:11
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is there any chance of a major shock with the results or will it basically be the same as it is now?
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Feb 3, 2019 18:19
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Jose posted:is there any chance of a major shock with the results or will it basically be the same as it is now? for now, everything points to nothing changing and more or less the same coalition returning to power, give or take a few minor parties. its not like the main challenger right now (Gantz's Hosen Yisrael) is all that different policy-wise from Likud, so even if there is a sudden reversal, not much will actually be different, but at least we would get the satisfaction of seeing Bibi kicked to the curb. but it's early days yet. a lot could change in a couple of months. i will write a dedicated post for what i consider be the range of plausible outcomes near the end of this month, after it becomes clear what electoral alliances everyone will be running in this time around
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Feb 3, 2019 18:26
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How is Bibi the current health minister if he's also the PM?
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Feb 3, 2019 18:39
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Bibi getting kicked out results in him getting prosecuted right? that would own
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Feb 3, 2019 18:40
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UrbicaMortis posted:How is Bibi the current health minister if he's also the PM? Ha. Bibi is currently the Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of Health and Minister of Defence. He was also Minister of Communication until a short while ago. Democracy! Jose posted:Bibi getting kicked out results in him getting prosecuted right? that would own yes.
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Feb 3, 2019 18:43
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