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Onmi posted:My Mighty No.9 experience can be summed up thusly. I played it, disliked it. Was talking to a friend who doesn't like Megaman one day and she said she couldn't see the difference between the two. She went and brought it, played it, came back and went "Nope, that was a shitshow." Specifically, she mentioned how, due to unfortunate degeneration in her eyes, she can only see out of one of them, and in a few years she's going to be completely blind. Mighty No.9 hurt her to play. Not because it was 'ugly' but because the actual visual clarity of the game hosed with her vision bad. She plays Payday 2 and Battlefield games very well, because, like or hate those games, the visual design is such that even her almost-blind self can play. That sounds like an incredibly specific issue that would affect very few people, and it's unlikely the issue she had would be specific to MN9. Nothing about MN9's visuals is that unclear or visually bothersome. I'm sure it's not the only game in the world -nor the only good one- to cause those issues. I don't see how her issue is relevant to MN9's game or visual design, given that. That being said, that really sucks, and as someone with rapidly progressing eye problems myself, I hope she enjoys what she can while she can do it.
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Mar 4, 2019 05:54
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Failing to design with impairment in mind is not fine just because other games fail in the same way.
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Mar 4, 2019 06:15
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Bruceski posted:Failing to design with impairment in mind is not fine just because other games fail in the same way. I don't think it's anyone's burden to design fictional entertainment with impairment in mind. What if I want to play games with one hand? Or no hands? Or while permanently blind or deaf? Should developers be forced to change their design to fit my demographic? Hell no. Some games are not meant for certain people. Even if I do go completely blind someday, I highly doubt you'll ever find me asking a developer to change their artistic choices just to line up with a specific demographic of disabled individuals.
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Mar 4, 2019 06:35
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GamesAreSupernice posted:I don't think it's anyone's burden to design fictional entertainment with impairment in mind. What if I want to play games with one hand? Or no hands? Or while permanently blind or deaf? Should developers be forced to change their design to fit my demographic? Hell no. Wow, "gently caress disabled people, developers shouldn't cater to their niche market" is one hell of a tact to take in 2019 Anno Domini, but you do you, bud, I ain't gonna stop you 
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Mar 4, 2019 07:30
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nine-gear crow posted:Wow, "gently caress disabled people, developers shouldn't cater to their niche market" is one hell of a tact to take in 2019 Anno Domini, but you do you, bud, I ain't gonna stop you I'm aware you're mad that I stepped all over your pet ideology before, but yes, I do think that you shouldn't limit artistic expression simply because some people may not be able to consume it. There are many visual effects, character designs, story ideas, and even basic concepts that not everyone can consume or appreciate. Asking someone to alter their design to fit with an unintended demographic is egotism at its best. That being said, I will consider your advice and try telling my friends to make their fictional media less gay so it feels more comfortable to straight people, that way they may consume it.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:09
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Hmm, yes, asking that media be slightly more accommodating to people is exactly the same as demanding that gay people shouldn't be in media. Sasuga, GASN-san.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:12
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GamesAreSupernice posted:That being said, I will consider your advice and try telling my friends to make their fictional media less gay so it feels more comfortable to straight people, that way they may consume it. I'm really enjoying this meta-LP of a virtual hole-digging game.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:14
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Oh hey mighty number 9 i heard it was a pretty bad game i hope the LP is fair but still shows how it failed in- wwha what's goin no oh god no
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Mar 4, 2019 08:19
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Ibblebibble posted:Hmm, yes, asking that media be slightly more accommodating to people is exactly the same as demanding that gay people shouldn't be in media. Sasuga, GASN-san. Enchanted Hat posted:I'm really enjoying this meta-LP of a virtual hole-digging game. I mean, I'm having a good time too. My gay, depressed, transgender, multiple-personality-disorder, multiple-sclerosis having vision impaired miserable rear end thinks it's absolutely hilarious that people take such great lengths to feel upset for others. I know we gotta apparently live in a world where people are either good or bad, and it's really fun not to look at the surrounding context behind debates or ideas, apparently, but try to keep up with what I'm saying? I'm making the argument that accounting for some fringe demographics of people in regular fictional accessibility means we should attempt to account for all of them. That's only fair, right? And accounting for everyone in accessibility means some lovely things. But let me make something super clear: I legit do not care what you think about me. I came here to talk about games, game design, artistic expression, and I enjoy that. I think making developers change their design to appeal to certain fringe demographics would be a great hindrance to games as a medium. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 4, 2019 08:23
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hey real quick question do you think that nazis are far left wing
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Mar 4, 2019 08:27
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And yet at the end of the day you're the person saying that giving options to help accommodate people is infringing on artistic integrity, not me.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:27
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Y'know what, let's just meet in the middle and make games that are accessible to nobody. Like NRA Gun Club.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:32
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I'm just going to toss this out here, just as a theory. Do you think mouths not moving in cutscenes was an artistic decision? What about these cut features?  Was the decision to cut them artistic integrity? So if those are already places that compromises had to be made, for money, for time, for whatever. I can think that "Make your game not visually garbage" is something you can handle without violating your artistic integrity.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:32
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GamesAreSupernice posted:I'm aware you're mad that I stepped all over your pet ideology before, but yes, I do think that you shouldn't limit artistic expression simply because some people may not be able to consume it. Making you game more accessible to a wider audience can be done without a compromise of vision. Crosscode promises challenging gameplay (and delivers (and scrubs do indeed need to  AND USE THE drat COMBAT ARTS-)) but also has a slider which adjust enemy dmg and puzzle difficulty in the options.Mario is trying to do away with the lives system because honestly it's an archaic system and kind of sucks. Like bashing your head against a puzzle and losing coins is punishment enough in Mario: Odyssey. If you cannot do this with your game...perhaps you just made a bad game? Like I sympathize with the spirit of your point: no, we shouldn't account for absolute morons like DSP. But let's not poo poo on accessibility cause why don't we make devs challenge themselves to make their games available to a wider audience? And Omni's friend had a broader point: this game is ugly and drab. One thing you could never accuse Megaman of was drab, this was a series that had details right down to the tiny platforms you stood on. Everything was as bright and vibrant as technologically possible. Here? Well just look at the boxy cars in the level with no other details. Look at the rain effects that serve nothing but to give a grey filter to the screen. I don't know why this game looks so unpolished but it's not at all attractive. Especially after the Zero, ZX and especially the StarForce series. And the Zero series came on 8 mb cartridges. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 08:33
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oh okay i looked at the rap sheet. christ almighty dude. what the poo poo. do you do this on purpose or do you just not... get it? For real not understand the things people tell you?
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Mar 4, 2019 08:33
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SSNeoman posted:Making you game more accessible to a wider audience can be done without a compromise of vision. Crosscode promises challenging gameplay (and delivers (and scrubs do indeed need to I think there are situations where some games have mechanics that don't befit being taught through play, or are too complex to be hidden well in regular gameplay. I really don't think the way you teach a player alone should qualify a game as good or bad.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:36
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Trying to make games accessible to people who are disabled isn't a bad thing, but it requires more time, planning, and money than the developers are already giving to just make a game itself.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:38
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GamesAreSupernice posted:I think there are situations where some games have mechanics that don't befit being taught through play, or are too complex to be hidden well in regular gameplay. I really don't think the way you teach a player alone should qualify a game as good or bad. do you think nazis are left wing or not, answer the question (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 4, 2019 08:40
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Mraagvpeine posted:Trying to make games accessible to people who are disabled isn't a bad thing, but it requires more time, planning, and money than the developers are already giving to just make a game itself. Yeah, that's a concern I have, in addition to it potentially comprising their visual or game design philosophy. I think I recall Bayonetta having a mode that let one-handed players play the game? That's pretty cool, and I wish more people drew attention to that, but not everyone has the time, budget, or desire to change their game mechanics for such an endeavor. I'm all for more people playing games, though, which is why I'm glad indie games have blown up so much this last decade. Galactic Cat posted:do you think nazis are left wing or not, answer the question No, I do not think Nazis are left wing. Or right wing. Or anything besides very bad. Can we talk about videogames featuring nazis instead, maybe?
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Mar 4, 2019 08:41
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Oh, that reminds me. A really cool game called FutureGrind came out with a feature to help people with visual impairment. Since the game is largely based around color, they added a mode for color-blind players to let them change the colors of the rails until they could see more clearly. People are getting a lot better at being accessible, and that's cool, but I think that's a bonus, not a mandatory burden.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:45
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GamesAreSupernice posted:I think there are situations where some games have mechanics that don't befit being taught through play, or are too complex to be hidden well in regular gameplay. I really don't think the way you teach a player alone should qualify a game as good or bad. Not to dogpile too hard but are you only defending the tutorial so hard because the ugly graphics, cutscenes, and levels are indefensible? Like I think the tutorial is bad but thats just the tip of the iceberg here. There are tons of things wrong in this game that make it feel unsatisfying to play.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:45
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GamesAreSupernice posted:I really don't think the way you teach a player alone should qualify a game as good or bad. Sure, but it is a brick in the wall, especially for games with the Megaman pedigree, a series famous for simple controls and a wide variety of weapons. Like we all saw the JUMP AND SHOOT video right? There's a reason why Megaman X is so loved by the fanbase and devs and why every megaman game now has a highway level. It's a simple control scheme that is used for a wide variety of challenges. And the game never offers tutorials on it. Megaman classic is even simpler; you just have a jump, a basic shot and you can slide. Later Megaman X games build on this concept with new X armors, sure, but the core mechanics are always present because they're simple yet versatile. It's one of the reasons why games like X6 and X7 suck; they feel clunky and unpleasant to play, CERTAINLY not the only reason, but it is a major one.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:46
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Agent355 posted:Not to dogpile too hard but are you only defending the tutorial so hard because the ugly graphics, cutscenes, and levels are indefensible? There are so many things about the tutorials in MN9 that could be better conveyed. The menu for the mechanics probably shouldn't be called "Tips", and the "Challenge" missions need a different name. I just don't think having bad conveyance of mechanics is enough to ruin the whole thing.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:47
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Did you read my post? Like I'm explicitly dismissing the tutorial as important to why the game is bad. Who cares if the tutorial is good or bad, the game is bad completely independent of that.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:49
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SSNeoman posted:Sure, but it is a brick in the wall, especially for games with the Megaman pedigree, a series famous for simple controls and a wide variety of weapons. Like we all saw the JUMP AND SHOOT video right? I really don't think the original Mega Man games deserve praise for some of those things, as they seem downright accidental at times. MN9 takes Mega Man and gives it a rhythm coat, more complex mechanics, and spices up the movement. That may not be what people wanted, but I'm still pretty adamant that it's a good game.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:49
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Agent355 posted:Did you read my post? Like I'm explicitly dismissing the tutorial as important to why the game is bad. Yes, I read the post. I don't think the game is bad independent of that. Hence the LP. I mostly wanted to explain that I don't feel the tutorial is good or anything. It's a pretty bad way to do it.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:51
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GamesAreSupernice posted:I really don't think the original Mega Man games deserve praise for some of those things, as they seem downright accidental at times. I won't deny that's true to a point, yes. The quality oscillates depending on a lot of things, how willing Capcom was to experiment and how willing they were to put effort into their games because lol capcom sequels. GamesAreSupernice posted:MN9 takes Mega Man and gives it a rhythm coat, more complex mechanics, and spices up the movement. That may not be what people wanted, but I'm still pretty adamant that it's a good game. That's what I'm trying to tell you, it really kinda doesn't. The air dash is basically Model HX's airdash from Megaman ZX. A later character also has HX's hover function, and even does a challenge similar to one in Hurricane's stage in ZX. And this game doesn't feel nearly as good as ZX to play and nobody could understand why. It's not like the game doesn't acknowledge it's inspirations with the highway stage and especially Ray who is basically genderbent Zero. IntiCreates also made ZX, so I don't get why this feels so bad to play. I'm fine with dashing through enemies, hell that was pretty much how I killed 90% of the enemies in ZX (HX Dash + hit the sword button) and they were clearly trying to build on that concept but...I dunno it feels way more stiff here.
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Mar 4, 2019 09:01
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SSNeoman posted:That's what I'm trying to tell you, it really kinda doesn't. The air dash is basically Model HX's airdash from Megaman ZX. A later character also has HX's hover function, and even does a challenge similar to one in Hurricane's stage in ZX. And this game doesn't feel nearly as good as ZX to play and nobody could understand why. It's not like the game doesn't acknowledge it's inspirations with the highway stage and especially Ray who is basically genderbent Zero. I guess it may just feel different to me? I've not seen many people say the game doesn't feel good, so that's a take on it I hadn't really considered, because it feels good to me personally. I'm sadly really not sure how to qualify game feel outside of explaining why I feel it's satisfying, and I can't tell you that you're wrong for finding it dissatisfying. I won't deny other games have done similar things better, but I think the dashing is fluid and clean, and the ability to absorb enemies for added benefits is a good mix of complexity and traditional mechanics.
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Mar 4, 2019 09:04
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Hey, real quick: To anyone I genuinely hurt with my statements, I want to make it clear I do not think accessibility is a bad thing. Accessibility is good, and making games playable to more people is good. I just don't think it's as easy as it's made to seem, and I'd immensely dislike if it came at the cost of creative vision or forced a developer into financial trouble. I have also been needlessly pissy and confrontational lately. Usually the people here have been good, and you guys probably deserve better. So, I apologize. I don't care what you think of me, but I do care if I hurt someone.
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Mar 4, 2019 09:13
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nice meltdown
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Mar 4, 2019 09:14
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Galactic Cat posted:nice meltdown I've had much worse. What matters from here is that I make sure I didn't hurt too many people. I may close the thread and try again some other time, because I was so aggressive these past few weeks and folks really didn't need that.
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Mar 4, 2019 09:18
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Don't make your game look like unreadable poo poo ≠ make game for blind people. And it seems obvious this game isn't the way it is because of "creative vision", if anything it's the opposite where they had some good concepts but failed to implement and make them flow together in a satisfactory way.
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Mar 4, 2019 09:25
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Avalerion posted:Don't make your game look like unreadable poo poo ≠ make game for blind people. And it seems obvious this game isn't the way it is because of "creative vision", if anything it's the opposite where they had some good concepts but failed to implement and make them flow together in a satisfactory way. I'm pretty aware of the aggressive hyperbole of my statements at this point, yeah. I get I was making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Mar 4, 2019 09:27
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3. Plant It, Punk Brandish's weapon changes the way the game feels singificantly.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:51
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If I recall right they had to add that "hint: use crouch dash" thing after launch because people just straight up forgot the crouch dash was a thing (and it's not like you use it at all outside of like, the first level. Doesn't even look all that different or have combat applications which makes it easy to forget). From what I've seen of this game (I had a bit of a fascination with kickstarter games a few years back) the quality is pretty scattershot, with some levels being pretty alright and some (like no 8's) being really frustrating. And two of the last three levels are completely awful (not to mention a weird story beat right at the end that makes Dr White look like the bad guy and a complete craphshoot final boss) so it ends on a real sour note. It's not unplayable, I have certainly seen worse 2D platformers, but like Yooka-Laylee it feels like a cheap knockoff of a game the people making it worked on when the talent was there to make something more (and in fact was sold on that premise). As for the looking ugly thing, I think that's largely because the original proposal art had this cool cartoonish look that looked like it was a gameplay screenshot and people assumed it was going to have a cel-shaded aesthetic, something like Hollow Knight of Half-Genie Hero. Instead it looks like a very early Gamecube game and it's pretty clearly a step down. e: are you going to do a Rachel playthrough by the way? I'm curious how she plays in later levels. e2: uh hey, I've liked your LPs before but you seriously need to chill, it's just a drat game. One depressed, non-neurotpical, gay as hell trans who gets real, real passionate about what they like to another, you can make your case without dying on a hill over it. I like me some games that people have really poo poo over too but I didn't start attacking people over it. ManlyGrunting fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 02:23
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ManlyGrunting posted:Like Yooka-Laylee it feels like a cheap knockoff of a game the people making it worked on when the talent was there to make something more (and in fact was sold on that premise). I think that's the main issue here, these game were not as good as fans hoped they were going to be which marred any good they have. The fact that these two came back to back didn't help matters and made the subsequent success of fellow Kickstarter campaign Shantae: Half-Genie Hero all the more important. Like HGH's development had issues as well but of the three Kickstarters, Shantae arguably came out of the ordeal much better than Mighty No. 9 or Yooka-Laylee. And to be fair to both Mighty No. 9 & Yooka-Laylee things could have been much, much worst as Daniel "DJ Slope" Ibbertson has demonstrated quite well: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMC49V9zeXbGQwEM-my5XLiTWzy4-vf7j Chimera-gui fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 04:03
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In terms of accessibility options I should once again praise Celeste because 1) it's literally perfect 2) it has an easy mode that just says "hey we feel the game means more if you play it with its normal difficulty but if you just can't do that no problem bud, we understand and want you to enjoy our game  : I have a disability that means my hand-eye co-ordination is sub-par, it means that some games are just literally too difficult for me to physically beat, or take me longer than average to get good at (I have never in my life beat a Dark Souls boss on anything less than my fifth try, and while Thumper is a favourite of mine and helps with my anxiety I simply cannot beat the loving thing because I simply cannot react fast enough in the later levels) and I am literally physically incapable of doing high-level play of games like Devil May Cry even if I adore them and play the hell out of them. Accessibility options rule because it means that people who have it even worse than me can actually enjoy games, especially since I'm not a teenager anymore and I don't have a ton of spare time to just brute force my way into doing well at video games.
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Mar 6, 2019 05:46
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hey, GASN, you don't have platinum so I can't PM you. I would like to PM you but I also don't want you to feel like you have to spend money to do so. I don't have an official SA email, but my "mod" email is blindsallysa at gmail dot com if you want to message me. I don't really check it that often, but I'll peek at it if you want to get a hold of me over the next few days.
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Mar 6, 2019 06:12
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There's a bit of a design issue in Brandish's weapon being the "best" weapon - why use anything else? It's like Mega Man 2 - the Metal Blade was the best weapon, and outside of fringe cases or deliberate level design, you just didn't use anything else. It even had infinite ammo, too - you just needed to pause every three shots. And Dynatron's voice is incredibly annoying to my ears.
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Mar 8, 2019 02:34
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Blind Sally posted:hey, GASN, you don't have platinum so I can't PM you. I would like to PM you but I also don't want you to feel like you have to spend money to do so. I don't have an official SA email, but my "mod" email is blindsallysa at gmail dot com if you want to message me. I don't really check it that often, but I'll peek at it if you want to get a hold of me over the next few days. alright, i'll shoot you a message
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Mar 12, 2019 09:35
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