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I'm home sick today and being feverish must be affecting my judgment. I decided to finally read the clone saga. Somebody talk me out of it. First thoughts: this Traveler guy is really stupid.
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Mar 5, 2019 20:47
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Rhyno posted:READ IT Finished the first arc. It feels like they were trying to Batman up Spider-Man and that was a terrible idea. "This Carnage fight sure is exciting! Let's describe how epic and exciting it in caption boxes while giving you one panel of Spider-Men kicking him!" Hey, kids! This weirdly omnipotent villain is hinting that maybe the Spider-Man you've been reading about for twenty years is a fake! Or maybe not! Better keep reading! Onto Lost Years. At least that one has a consistent writing and art team. And it's John Romita Jr. Edit: Lost Years was surprisingly decent, though I think Marvel's event reading order has the series misplaced. The first issue seemed to be backup stories from issues early on in the saga and that's probably why it was there but the rest of the series seems to come at a later point since Kaine keeps referring to Reily as the real Spider-Man. BTW, Kaine/Kain/Caine/Kayne/Kane is the stupidest name for a character. Congratulations, writer, you know the single most common biblical allusion out there. We'll throw him on the pile with the other six thousand Cains. The next four issue block is The Exile Returns with the Scarlet Spider, so I guess I'm got the high point of this storyline out of the way early. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 21:15
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Rhyno posted:One thing about that era, Steven Butler draws one hell of a Spiderman/Scarlet Spider. Web was easily the best looking book back then. Yeah, right now Web looks really sharp. Because at the moment the eternal Spider-man crossovers are divided into two book pairs, I'll hold back on ranking the artists until I finish the next arc: Back from the Edge. But Return from Exile. There's this phrase you guys might have heard, "With great power comes great responsibility." I'm not sure if you're familiar with it but goddamn is the clone saga running that into the ground right now. First arc literally used it as a title, but also featured Peter going insane and pulling himself back with that phrase. And Ben remembering it and doing good deeds. And then in this arc Ben watches people get robbed and roughed up on multiple occasions and chooses not to do anything. And he wants to get out of New York before he decides to start helping people again. But don't worry, he eventually remembers that with great power comes great responsibility. And so he just decides to pick a fight with Venom because he's a superhero again. I mean, anti-hero Venom was stupid as gently caress, but there's nothing about Venom in particular showing up that should make Ben decide to put on a costume and go fight him. How about stopping that robbery instead, Ben? You know, the thing that directly parallels the origin story? No? You've got to go establish yourself as Spider-Man's Poochy by beating up his arch-enemy? Well, okay then. And look at how he beats Venom! Coming up with new webshooters and a dart gun, then shooting Eddie Brock in the face. The Scarlet Spider is a Spider-Man for the 90's! is what no one with any sense would say. Onto Back From the Edge, the covers of which promise me will feature Stupid Armor Daredevil. Goddamned 90's. Samuringa posted:I keep wondering, what are Spider-man runs(Preferably something somewhat recent) that really show all the aspects of Peter that readers are so enamored with? Start with John Byrne's Spider-Man: Chapter One. It's a natural jumping on point.  Seriously, start with Amazing Fantasy 15 and start reading forward. Lee/Ditko doesn't really become amazing until around ASM#10, but it's worth it because you can see Lee figuring out how to write a new kind of superhero comic in those early issues. By the time you hit Romita the book is firing on all cylinders consistently and it stays that way until around issue 150 or so where it becomes really spotty. Then Roger Stern has a pretty good run. By the time you hit the 90's, Spider-man is really bad for a long time (I jumped off before the clone saga and I was a lucky one), though with some good artists. JMS's run ends very badly for more reasons than just that, but it starts off extremely good. And, yes, Bendis's run on Ultimate is really good, especially as he moves out of that first arc; I don't like 90% of things Bendis has done but that's something special. Beyond that, I'd have to call out individual stories rather than creators. There's a lot of people who did middling work on Spider-Man for a while but managed to create at least one really great story.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:05
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Back from the Edge sure was something. I think the Vulture's scheme to kill everyone in New York with eagles/vultures (depending on the artist) that had a virus on their talons so that he could get rid of everyone who ever knew him might be not be the smartest plan ever. And look, Mary Jane sure does love the person who abused her; isn't that uplifting? Armor Daredevil was even more angsty and angry than Spider-Man was proving that these were definitely comics published in the 1990's. I get the impression that this arc was supposed to be a turning point (hence the title) but I didn't see any sign of that. Spider-Man ends the arc just as angsty as he was at the start and now he's dying of eagle/vulture poisoning. As promised in my last post, as I am now three months and 17 issues (two of which were triple sized) into the clone saga, it's time to rank things. 4. Spectacular - Sal is always the lesser Buscema but at this point it really feels like he's phoning it in. There's two pages of dialog where he just xeroxed the same panel for the whole thing. Tom DeFalco is also scripting this one (the "plotting" on these books is essentially being done in large scale meetings with the creative teams and driven by the editor). This book actively brings the books around it down because you are literally obligated to buy every single book coming out each month to follow the story and I think if it was 1994 I'd just drop all four rather than be forced to continue reading this. 3. Adjectiveless - Tom Lyle's got a lot of the extreme over musculature going on; Ben was just as bulky as Venom. He also doesn't seem to be able to structure an action scene. It's extremely 90's in the art style with it coming across more as a series of pin-ups than a story. Howard Mackie is surprisingly tolerable for a man who will have one of the bottom 5 Spider-Man runs in a few years. 2. Amazing - Mark Bagley is a legit good Spider-Man artist. There's a reason that he has some a mammoth body of Spider-work. But, again, it feels like he's half-assing it a lot here. I've read Bagley's Amazing run prior to the clones and it felt like it had more flair. Maybe he's not liking the job right now (don't know how that would happen). JM DeMatteis is often underrated as a writer and it doesn't help that the story is focused on how much internal torment Spider-Man has which doesn't lend itself to more than spinning wheels of self-pity. I feel like he could do a lot more if he wasn't constrained to some really bad characterization. 1. Web of - Steve Butler seems to be the one artist actually giving a drat at this point. He's putting some really wonderfully structured pages together and it works. Terry Kavanagh's scripting on the other hand, seems to be stuck due to the plotting. At the moment, Spider-Poochie's storyline is more interesting because Peter's just whining endlessly while Ben is actually doing stuff. Okay, he's whining that he doesn't want to do stuff until two panels later he remembers that with great power comes great responsibility, but he's still doing stuff. So, 17 issues down, about 70-80 to go.
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Mar 6, 2019 00:04
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Another Clone Story Arc down! Web of Life is the proper introduction to Kaine and since I know he's a souped up clone with extra strong powers I'm way more interested in what he's doing than anyone else, even if he has a stupid name. Grim Hunter might be the 90's-est thing yet in the Clone Saga. Also, he has an extremely tiny penis; there's a very large panel of him standing around naked with a very small amount of shadow for his junk. There's a snowstorm in this arc which makes it a bit confusing on the timing. The previous issue which took place on the same day had a flowering garden, so it didn't even seem like it was autumn. Okay, over to Web of Death because they decided to kill two "major" Spider-villains in one month! Skwirl posted:I remember liking the part in Clone Saga where the titles are all renamed after Scarlet Spider briefly (Web of Scarlet Spider, etc). Did they ever add Sensational Spider-Man to Marvel Unlimited? I remember it not being there when I last checked and I've let my subscription lapse. All of the clone saga up to the change over is on Marvel Unlimited. After that (and you made me go and look because Marvel's own reading order for the event ends at Spectacular 229 when Peter quits) it becomes a lot more spotty. They've only got the Spectacular Scarlet Spider and not the other four books even though they're all a crossover or a lot of the spin-off books that pick up fragments of the story.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:01
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Web of Death sure is the last Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus epic! And definitely the last time that a dying Doctor Octopus teams up with Peter and winds up taking advantage of him. Doctor Octopus agrees with me about not liking how 90's Spider-Man has gotten since this story is all about him going, "Man, Spider-Man sure is a whiny, angsty jerk these days." I take back the nice things I said about Kaine in the previous post. Having him off Doctor Octopus to make readers go, "Oooooh, this sensational new character find of 1995 is so cool and edgy!" was pretty lovely. This story has a surprise appearance by the ghost of Uncle Ben who seems like he's playing a role in the story and then his bit immediately dropped. And I'm not talking about the near-death experience; I'm talking about when he shows up in the restaurant, seems to be telling Mary Jane what she needs to do so Peter can survive, and then Peter immediately runs out to confront Doc Ock. And hey, guys, did you notice all these giant flashing neon signs that they're putting up saying that Peter is actually the clone? Superhero comics are rarely subtle but come on. I pressed on with Funeral for an Octopus because it seemed to be a direct continuation of Web of Death, and this is the first time in the whole Clone Saga that I've felt like I'm reading a Spider-Man comic. There's a pile of villains, lots of quips, decent looking fight scenes, and Spider-Octopus. I have officially reached the point in the clone saga where I'm going, "How much longer does this go on... Oh gently caress." I'm still about five major story arcs out from Maximum Clonage, which given that there's a bit more than a full year of Ben-Spider-Man before things get even more stupid, I'd say is a bit less than the halfway mark. Edit: "So we have this group of terrorists bomb the subway on their way to attack the World Trade Center. But they need to make some getaway demands." "What if they want the Concorde!" "Perfect! None of this will reference real world tragedies so we're good to go!" Edit: One more block of the clone saga before bed and I've reached the point where things have gone off the rails. Smoke and Mirrors and Players and Pawns reminded me of later seasons of Lost; they're clearly just throwing crazy ideas against the wall at this point with no clue or intention of resolving anything. The Jackal is back, only completely 90's upped and also "wacky". His explicitly stated goal is to say lots of contradictory things about the plot so nobody can understand what's happening. And there's a third Peter Parker! Also two more that are explicitly clones! And another villain with vaguely defined powers that can do anything that the plot requires who and stands around saying ominous things while hinting that he knows everything. Despite the labels, they're the same story since Player and Pawns picks up moments after Smoke and Mirrors ends, has the same villain who is enacting the exact same plan. And neither of them make any sense at all. I am deep in the Clone saga weeds now with thirty-five issues down, forty-two to go before Peter quits, and roughly sixty+ issues after that before the nightmare ends. But right after a detour to The Planet of the Symbiotes (the first one), I'm reaching Amazing #400. I'm just imagining the poor souls in 1995 who thought, "Well of course they're going to wrap this up for #400!" One more thing: The Clone Journal was a massive rip off for Spider-fans at the time with something like four new pages and then out of context pages from the previous several months of stories. I would have been pissed if I had been conned into buying that. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 02:13
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More clone saga since I am now damned to this hell, though I'll be progressing more slowly. Maybe I'll finish it before the quarterly thread closes. This time, it's Planet of the Symbiotes. Not to be confused with the other Planet of the Symbiotes storyline. Not only does this feature anti-hero Venom, it features mullet anti-hero Venom. It is truly the worst of all possible worlds.  Just because you're calling out the lovely artist in your scripting doesn't make it less lovely. But there wasn't much to Planet because it was crossover nonsense that wasn't remotely coherent, had the "interesting" parts all take place off camera, and resolved with no effort or meaning. Oh, and one of the back ups spoils ASM 400, but I already knew what's going to happen there. Next up, a short block of a few issues where a major character dies! For real! Definitely not an actress who got really, really, really into the role. Jordan7hm posted:Finished Lone Wolf and Cub. It's quite a trip to get to the end of Lone Wolf and Cub but it was completely worth it. I remember when I was first reading it, I was wondering through the early issues, "What's he spending all this money on?" so the fact that it was part of the plan the whole time was cool.
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Mar 7, 2019 00:30
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Well, here I am at the high point of the Clone Saga. It's all downhill from here. Amazing Spider-Man 400 is a legit good comic. It actually succeeds in its emotional beats, even with the clone stuff. And Aunt May is a character that was ripe for a send off since she had spent the past four hundred issues basically on death's door (also, briefly dead for about six months just over two hundred issues previously) and only existing to give Peter some angst. No one had anything interesting to say with her (and no one would until JMS's run) so moving her off the stage in a touching farewell works. So full thumbs up, I can't believe there was a comic in this mess that I can say was good. And I already know that Marvel will piss all over it at the end of Clone Saga. So there's that to look forward to. And then because reading the Clone Saga isn't hard enough, the next issue is the start of that heavy gradient coloring Marvel got into in the 90's. It also has some of the worst Romita Jr. pencils I've seen, but it's the blinding gradients everywhere that really hurt the eyes. The Peter in jail for Kaine's crimes storyline is really not interesting to me and it feels like the writers aren't able to keep track of their own characterizations since there's a lot of out of nowhere talk about clone jealousy which hasn't been a thing since the very first part of this. The next part is The Mark of Kaine, because they couldn't just let that one slip by. Madkal posted:Quick question about 90's Spiderman. Was every Spiderman storyline in the early to mid 90's Clone Saga related? Ha ha, no. That would be silly. Just a two year period. So here's the thing that made Spider-Man a mess: Superman. You see, at the time, DC was boosting sales on Superman by releasing Superman books weekly and having some continuity through all of them. 52 issues of Superman a year, or rather Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Superman, and Superman: Man of Steel plus a few specials. And every few months there would be a storyline that directly flowed through all the books. So that was helping avoid the problem of a huge line having a weak book that doesn't do as well; you gotta get all of them if you want to keep up! And then there was the Death of Superman, the event that poisoned the early 90's. DC had struck solid gold with storyline. Then did it again with Batman. And now everybody wanted some of that sweet cash that came from serious events that you had to read to keep up. There were events before, but now they were EVENTS that demanded attention and their own overpriced polybagged special covered version. Pretty much all of the rest of the attempts to replicate this success fizzled with the only one I'd say even approached working was Wolverine getting his adamantium stripped. But for fun here's a brief list of how Marvel tried to capture some of that "And now nothing will ever be the same..." magic in the early 90's:
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. Oddly enough, Hulk and Thor didn't get in on this mess. They got the usual status quo changes but none that were really pushed as significant beyond their own title. So anyway, that's the atmosphere that the Clone Saga was born from. Note that pretty much all of these are considered low points in their respective comics, but it was the 90's, they still thought they could ride that collector's boom, Marvel was swimming in cash from that definitely not going to cause problems IPO, and they were going to change Spider-Man forever! Getting back to the specifics here, the 90's started out big for Spider-Man with the first real runaway sales juggernaut due to the collectors boom with the launch of the fourth ongoing Spider-Man title. It was created specifically so Todd McFarlane would stop whining about having to follow plots. After a few issues McFarlane decided he wanted all the money instead of a lot of money (which honestly, as a creative person doing work for hire isn't totally unreasonable) so he left to pursue his dream of buying a hockey team. And that's when the editors decided to start following the Superman model more with some loose storylines carrying between series and regular crossovers. These became more and more frequent over the next few years. Just hitting up the "major" "storylines" preceding the Clone Saga there was Invasion of the Spider-Slayers in which Spider-Man fights giant robots for way too long, Maximum Carnage in which Spider-Man fights Carnage for a 14 part crossover, the Spider-Parents storyline where they were robots not clones and it went on for an entire year. Then we hit the clone saga and things get really bad. The Spider-Man line had been having crossovers over every four to six months before this. Now it was all crossovers all the time with each titled story going between multiple series. There are no more stand alone stories but there's still technically a separate "writer" for each comic. Those comics I posted about up there? Those are the first time in the past six issues of Spider-Man comics that there hasn't been a "Storyline Title! Part x of y!" splashed on the cover. They weren't stand alone issues, it's just that they weren't explicitly crossover sales bait. And there's eight more months of non-stop crossovers before there's finally a bit of a breather when Ben takes over as Spider-Man. Just to repeat, Spider-Man was in a continuous, single storyline crossover for fourteen goddamned months before there is a full month where you do not have to buy every single Spider-Man comic coming out to get the story. That lasts exactly one month. Then there's four more months of all crossover all the time, a short breather for two months (which still have the continuing stories, they're just not "Buy next week's issue of __________ Spider-Man to get the next part!"), and then Onslaught hits which is its own lovely 90's crossover. After that the clone saga finally winds down but you've got a few more months of crossover before it'll let you go. So that winds up being 26 months of clone stories, not including the few months where they clone is hanging out in the background before the storyline actually starts. Over two years of Spider-Man in the 90's is spent on this mess and there's a reason why I have avoided trying to read it before now and does anyone else smell burning toast? The Clone Saga did so much damage to the brand that they tried to effectively reboot it a few years later. That reboot is another low point in Spider-Man history but it's a much shorter one. Feel free to read Spider-Man Chapter One to see how bad it can get (it's really bad) and Howard Mackie's run which solves the "problem" of the Spider-Marriage by blowing up Mary Jane.
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Mar 7, 2019 02:58
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Endless Mike posted:Thor wasn't part of that trend because he had gotten his '90s makeover a few years earlier. Eric Masterson is kind of the last hurrah of the old way of changing up series. Things are in a bit of a slump, so switch off the character(s) for a while. No fanfare, no giant crossover, no triple priced issue with a special cover, just a "this is how things are going to be for now". Of course, he was pretty much just Thor until Thunderstrike took him full 90's... 
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Mar 7, 2019 03:22
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Lurdiak posted:I'm not gonna defend the Clone Saga, but try reading Jacket Avengers if you want to see how much worse a formerly good Marvel comic could have gotten. Liar. Avengers was never good.  I'm kidding. Barely. But, yeah, that era is atrocious. When Operation: Galactic Storm is the storytelling high point of the period, there's a real problem. I started to attempt to read the Crossing on Marvel Unlimited a while ago but fortunately it was missing some key parts so I didn't make it far. I think they've added the missing bits, though, so I might feel the need to try to make it through that storyline the next time I'm delirious. I know 90% of everything is crap, but Marvel would really have to stretch to reach that mark between the tail end of the DeFalco era and then the Harris apocalypse. I'm trying to think of what the best book Marvel was publishing in 1994 (which would be the height of the boom and right in all these periods we're talking about). There's quite a few titles that were chugging along at blandly mediocre (Thor, the Spider-Books), a few books that had good creators on them who had just been on that book forever and as a result were kind of winding down on what they could say with it (Hulk, Captain America), a fair number that seemed like they must have only been still getting published out of obligation (Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Avengers), the X-books had gone off a cliff despite still selling well and it would be years until Morrison makes one of them readable again. I guess Hulk's the best book they were publishing at the time, but that was the end of the Pantheon era and I felt at that point David was running out of steam. There's literally nothing else Marvel was publishing at the time that I'd recommend someone read, though. drat, I usually think of the period when they kept changing editor-in-chiefs every couple of months as the nadir of Marvel comics, but taking a good hard look at '94-'95 is making a serious case for that being the bottom. (No, wise guy, the funny animal era does not count because those are Timely books.)
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Mar 7, 2019 05:14
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Another Clone Saga storyline down as I wrapped up The Mark of Kaine in which the third Peter Parker turned out to be an evil clone who alternated between talking about how he was a cloned weapon out to destroy them and claiming that he was the real Peter Parker. This one wound up having ambiguously defined plot powers that let him be a shape shifter kinda maybe rather than spider powers because I guess at this point that many people with spider powers running around would just be silly. Peter Parker in jail for a cross country string of serial murders when he should easily have alibis ("Here's the pictures I was taking of Spider-Man here in New York on the day you said I was killing a guy in Denver.") is just annoying. So is Traveler's "Boy I sure am figuring out the nature of humanity!" schtick. They're hitting obvious storybeats and dragging everything out way longer than it should be (dragging a story arc out during the clone saga? That's unheard of!). I'm going, "Get on with it!" and I've read six months of Spider-Man comics in the past three days; it must have been like pulling your own skin off reading this while it came out. The Spider-Man Unlimited part of this story felt really tacked on; it wasn't even related to the plot of the other four parts. Also, Peter has to dress as the Scarlet Spider because Ben is in jail as Peter and this is solely so people can start making a connection the two guys with spider powers and webshooters together? I've got to point out that Bill Sienkiewicz has taken over "inking" Sal Buscema's art on Spectacular and by "inking" I suspect they mean heavily redrawing. It looks a lot more like Sienkiewicz's style, especially in the warped faces, than Buscema's workman like stuff. It still feels wrong for Spider-Man, but the series is looking better at the moment. Next up, I screwed up when I was complaining about the pacing last night because it seems like I've got four single issue stories! I mean, they definitely won't stand alone, but single issues! I might actually enjoy some of them!
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Mar 7, 2019 15:26
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Gavok posted:One event nobody talks about is Chaos War, which I really liked until the aftermath. There's a lot of tiny events like Chaos War where they carry through a few books but don't go much past that which turn out decent. The cosmic Marvel crossovers through Annihilation/War of Kings/Thanos Imperative were pretty fun. I like a lot of the fifth week events DC did in the 90's as light crossovers, so Sins of Youth, Silver Age, the Justice Leage of Anything-That-Starts-With-A. I guess the key to a good crossover is to have it be mostly ignorable.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:50
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lifg posted:What are fifth week events? Is that when there are five Wednesdays in a month and the fifth is a bunch of bonus comics? Yep! With 52 shipping weeks a year and plans for 48 of them, DC used to fill in the fifth Wednesday of some months with small events that basically had an opening, a closing, and a few self contained stories around the concept. Marvel did a few things like this as well, but I think DC was the only one that explicitly called them "Fifth week events".
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Mar 7, 2019 16:51
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Yvonmukluk posted:Thanks for jumping on the Clone Saga grenade for the rest of us, Random Stranger! I only know it by reputation (and technically that 'Real Clone Saga' miniseries - it's actually pretty good). There are three kinds of people when it comes to the clone saga: those who read it as it was coming out, those who heard enough that they'd never want to read it, and those who were stupid enough to go back and read it. And there's very few people stupid enough to read the clone saga these days. So let's get back to the pain with four unconnected issues, two of which were issue numbers ending in multiples of twenty-five anniversary comics. And why is Peter still dressed as the Scarlet Spider? Why?! And OMG, it's Gwen Stacy (clone)! Something that would have been... well... not really shocking given the storyline, but at least original if they hadn't just had another shocking reveal of a Gwen Stacy clone two months and fifteen comics ago. And a new Green Goblin... who in his first appearance snatches Gwen-clone from a car on the George Washington Bridge where she can conveniently fall. Apparently the Goblin is a prep for a Spider-Man spin off series? Because what the world really needed was a heroic Green Goblin comic. Superpowers Traveler has: teleportation, invisibility, telepathy, force fields large enough to contain a building, making the illusion of a single person not doing anything but this exhausts him if he does it for more than about half an hour, makes inanimate objects do what he wants by telling them to, time travel, can turn into a bird, turns into smoke, energy blasts, immortality, puts people to sleep, puts people to sleep in the comics too. You know, rescuing someone who's your enemy doesn't mean a whole lot morally when if you let your enemy die it will kill hundreds of thousands of people. Really takes the moral edge off that life and death decision. There's been shocking news about the health of MJ's baby but everyone keeps talking around it rather than actually saying what it is. Since the problem isn't likely to be "has six arms" or "genetically disposed to being kidnapped immediately after being born and then never spoken of again", it's confusing why they refuse to say anything about what the actual problem is.  Seriously? Enough of this hot mess of issues. I'm up to the Trial of Peter Parker. And I might go as far as the start of the New Warriors in this mess. Because four monthly series, one quarterly series, a rotating set of miniseries that start up a new one every time the previous one ends, and the occasional backstory explaining one shot just wasn't enough for the clone saga.
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Mar 7, 2019 23:31
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The Trial of Peter Parker starts with "the city of New York vs. Peter Parker". For a cross country murder spree, none which took place in New York City. And even if they did, murder is a state charge. I get the impression that comic book writers may not have a good grasp of the legal system. Goddamnit, there's another Peter Parker clone. And I'm not talking about Kaine who was finally "revealed" to be another clone. Spider-clone count so far: Ben, Kaine, Guardian, Jack, Crazy Peter, Spidercide (who might be Crazy Peter but the gooey blob that was Crazy Peter was picked up by Scrier not the Jackal so why would it be the same character). There have also been two Gwen clones and a spare Jackal clone But you know what? Other than an incredibly boring detour for one part to put Spider-Man on trial for causing crazy villains like he was Batman or something, I kind of liked this one. There was something enjoyably absurd about Peter constantly trying to drag Kaine into court, Kaine constantly refusing to do anything because he wants Ben to get the chair, and then when they finally get there, Kaine makes up a completely insane story to exonerate Peter in front of the court and then going, "That's trial, time for the execution!" It's completely silly. And the next issue starts with the line "I'll prove I'm the real serial killer... by killing you!" I think it wasn't intended that way, but it's a bonkers way to end what was a boring storyline. Or at least I was enjoying it until this page:  That is, without a doubt, the single worst page of any Spider-Man comic ever. Hank Pym lashing out at Jan during his mental breakdown was something that had immediate and understandable consequences and that is all he will ever be known for. Peter using superstrength to smash his pregnant wife so hard that she's crumpled up with a bloody face is so much worse and no major consequences come from it at all. I've got a lot of bad story to go, but this the bottom. I really wish I had the letter columns from the time so I could see what the response was, but this happened in Spectacular and they never released an archive of that like they did for Amazing. I had a whole thing I wanted to say on how hosed up the clone saga is philosophically since this is the issue where it's "revealed" that Peter is the clone and Ben is the original, but that page leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I want to move on. Maybe I'll talk about it with the next storyline. Next up on the long march through the clone saga, it's finally time: Maximum Clonage. The tags at the ends of each book have been telling me that it's the "ultimate" clone story, so by definition it's the last one, right?
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Mar 8, 2019 01:56
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One nice thing about reading the clone saga, I'm not reading Doomsday Clock. Time for some Maximum Clonage, the centerpiece of the clone saga. Not quite the actual midpoint because, you know, clone saga, but definitely the point on which everything turns. Or was intended to turn. Which means I really need to say something about the morality and philosophy depicted in the clone saga: it's terrible. There's a philosophical question that's been around a long time: if you could make a 100% perfect duplicate of something down to every microscopic flaw and completely indistinguishable from the original, is there really a difference in meaning between the original and the copy? Sure, if you consider the emotional attachment, but no if you consider the purpose. And that extends to people: a precise copy of you with all the memories and emotions might as well be you until you start having divergent experiences. The central premise of the clone saga is that such a precise duplicate is inherently worse because it is not the original. Let's take the current premise in the story at face value: Peter's a copy, Ben is the guy from Amazing Fantasy #15. The story has told us that Ben got out of the smokestack Peter threw him down, went home, saw Peter with MJ, and decided he was the clone then and there. And because he was the clone he had to go away forever. Because he was a copy and thus disposable. That's been the attitude throughout the whole saga, the copy can be thrown away. But a copy of a person is still a person. And a copy of a person who has all of the same emotions and feelings and memories of a person is that person. At this point, the text of the writing is pushing back against that with a lot of "You have value!" and "You're a good person!" but there's always a subtext of "despite not being real". It's a pretty awful attitude to take. In this story, Peter has just found out that he's a clone. So he immediately turns his back on humanity and joins the Jackal because as a clone he's a worthless thing. Really demonstrates how much that sense of great responsibility is ingrained there. There's a Punisher appearance for no good reason beyond the fact that he was part of the original Jackal storyline. He just shows up, takes some pot shots are Spider-Man and the Jackal, and then threatens to murder a bunch of cops. On the positive side of things, Spider-Man being thrown into a chamber with hundreds of crazed Spider-clones is pretty much the scene that was necessary since they started a storyline about too many Spider-clones. Sadly, they didn't do anything interesting with the concept, but at least it's fulfilling a promise of the story's premise. I am really getting sick of the scripters bagging on the terrible names. Yeah, Spidercide and Scarlet Spider are lovely names. Maybe you shouldn't have used them then. And if editorial is making you use them, then maybe they shouldn't let you include these digs at how lovely the names are in the scripts. There was something nagging at me with the Gwen clones so far and I finally realized what it was: not only did Gwen not know Peter was Spider-Man, she hated Spider-Man for causing her father's death. The period when Warren would have gotten his samples for clone would have her despise Peter if she found out he was Spider-Man (which she just knows for some reason with all of these Gwen clones). I'm not a giant continuity stickler, but for a character with so little about her you'd think they'd remember one of the major things. There's some lovely "Oh poo poo, one of the dozen artists we had rapidly doing pages so we could get this mess out the door didn't actually read the plot" scripting in the Omega issue where the Jackal has a gun, it gets destroyed, then he's fighting Spidercide inside, then they're both outside and the Jackal has his gun again. The writer's solution? "You dissolved the wall!" "The ol' secret gun under the coat trick, 'cide-my-boy!"  Way to rub it in, Marvel. With Maximum Clonage out of the way I'm just two months away from what Marvel calls the end of the clone saga but we know it doesn't really end until Ben is gone. Just two months... which is 13 comics. The next storyline is Exiled and it promises to tell me "Who will wear the webs?" according to the cover of the next issue. Lurdiak posted:Keep in mind the plan was initially to kill off Peter after revealing he was the clone, which is why they have him acting like a big dickhead. Then after they realized everyone would get Mad, the plan changed to having Peter "retire" from being Spider-man while Ben took over. But then editorial didn't like the idea that there was this backup Spider-man that existed since they felt it undermined the character. So they killed Ben instead. I don't think Peter was being the Abominable Angst-Man because they wanted to phase him out, that strikes me as just "It is the 90's and this is how you write serious superhero comics!" On the other hand, they were definitely going full Poochie with Ben as they constantly turned to the audience and said, "Wow! Isn't this version of Spider-man cool? Way better than the lame old one!" I feel like the push against the marriage had been editorially driven more than anything else, though the fact that a lot of writers couldn't handle writing a woman didn't help Mary Jane. There's a lot more lovely things that were done with her character than good things. As for the "right" way to roll back the character, I've thought the best solution was the silver age Superman one. Give us a "Whatever Happened to the Man of the Spider" style sendoff where we get a good ending for the version of Peter Parker that we've been following all along, he gets a happy ending, and then the next issue just starts with the version of Spider-Man they want to use. Screw continuity or in-story explanations, just tell the fans, "We want to do something different [ie. exactly the same as when we were kids] with Peter Parker and we're just going to go with it." It's a bit messy and there will always be whiners, but that's the best way to pull off the band-aide. Edit: I was trying to get my ducks in a row as I bump into the edge of Marvel's official reading order for the clone saga and I realized I forgot something horrifying. With the hand off to Ben Reilly, they added a fifth Spider-Man monthly book. And I don't mean another book like Marvel Adventures Spider-Man (which was based on the cartoon at the time) or the effectively ongoing Venom but they just gave it a new number one every four months or the actually good monthly Spider-Man book Untold Tales of Spider-Man (which launched the month after Maximum Clonage). I mean, they put out five monthly comics about Spider-Man that were in a constant state of crossover. I want to steal Dr. Doom's time machine just so I can go back to the 90's and drive Marvel into bankruptcy over this. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Mar 8, 2019 |
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Mar 8, 2019 05:18
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I'm back in the clones and it's time for Exile. Did you ever notice in the nineties how a character would show up and not really get a name except in an offhand mention in one panel by a guy who's all by himself and it might not even be clear that it's the character's name but then in the later issues everyone knows this guy's trademarkable name like they got the trading card set for their crossover? Yeah, "Helix" is one of those guys. I am really hating that New Warriors has been added to the mix. The previous issue was a lead into Maximum Clonage and this issue is a follow up, and there's two remaining issues before I reach the end of the Marvel timeline. It just makes me mad that there's now five books a month. And that would go to six except when I pass beyond to Ben-Spider-Man I'm not reading any of those New Warriors issues unless they are explicitly part of the clone storyline. I'm reading enough lovely books, I don't need them adding more. D'spayre is a villain who should never be seen outside of something like a Dr. Strange story and yet he keeps turning up in superhero stories. Is he the embodiment of clinical depression? Then why is he always going around telling superheroes they should be sad? He shouldn't have to do anything! And all of these stories are the exact same. "Look at me, I'm a scary skull faced guy. Your life is so hosed up!" "You're right, scary skull face guy, I should mope around for the required number of pages and then go find a high place that I can throw myself off of... but wait! A chance encounter has reaffirmed my life choices of engaging in violence against mentally ill people to maintain my comfortable status quo!" "No! My standing around and telling you how much you suck is no match for your inherent marketability!" I also don't like energy vampire Vulture. It feels like a make over to try to make him more threatening by having him kill everyone around him and that's so lazy. So after Maximum Clonage seemed to be all about getting to the point that they can transition from Peter to Ben, the next issue was "Nope, we're sticking with things the way they are." Which wouldn't be believable in 1995 even without the advantage of knowing that this train is going to be wrecking for almost another year and a half. And even when this comic was released, the solicits would have been out for months telling readers that Peter was quitting. It feels so needless to even try this. It's awfully convenient for the story in Unlimited that the security guard to have had degrees in biochemistry and physics in order to deliver all that exposition to Ben. The worst part of this storyline is that it's not a storyline, it's four stand alone comics but they put "Exile part X of 4!" on each cover. Because you got keep fleecing those sheep. Hey, the Adjectiveless issue is one of the rare times that Marvel included the letter column on Unlimitted. Let's see what people are sayings: Luke Kendall posted:I think all of the Spider-titles at the moment are exquisite, mysterious, and exciting! Daniel Valois posted:A third Peter Parker? Now I'm really confused! Joe Kucharski posted:Kaine's business is still shrouded, but my guess is he's the future self of Peter Parker. Really, Joe? In an ongoing storyline about clones, you're going with time travel? Gregory Downing posted:Don't carry this in on for too long. I wish.  Two more story arcs to go in Marvel's clone saga itinerary (found at https://www.marvel.com/comics/discover/523/spider-man-the-clone-saga for those who want to see exactly what I've been working through), so next up is Time Bomb. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 02:33
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The saga of the clone saga continues with Time Bomb which was an okay story about Spider-Man being programmed to kill Mary Jane by the Jackal as part of his cloning process and Mary Jane being smart enough to overcome that. It's pretty standard stuff, but nothing worth getting worked up over. The New Warriors story, on the other hand, was mainly about how upset Firestar was because he superpowers were going to make her sterile, the first of way too many "Firestar's powers are killing her" stories that she'll have. There's also a villain called Genecide. Because 90's, that's why. Which is bringing me into the last crossover before Peter is definitely gone for good and no longer Spider-Man: The Greatest Responsibility. I'm actually kind of hopeful that with Peter sidelined the books will become enjoyable for bit. I'm willing to give Ben a fair shake as Spider-Man. I am definitely going to be let down, aren't I? sexpig by night posted:Really one of the greatest misses in comics was Marvel not making their Superman competitor named Doctor Cosmic or something. Sadly, Roy Thomas was just too literary minded to be that clever.
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Mar 9, 2019 06:11
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What Marvel thinks they can call the clone saga finally comes to an end in The Greatest Responsibility which concludes with Pete quitting so he can start a family. It's the 90's and it's time for cyberspace! Virtual reality is totally the wave of the future and Spider-man is a cowboy surfing the data streams of the information superhighway. (It's at this point that I realize all the terrible cyberpunk terminology I knew has fallen out of my brain and I am so happy.)  I know it's silly to complain about scientific accuracy in a comic about a guy bitten by a radioactive spider, but when you push against suspension of disbelief like this you've got do something really great for me to go along with something this wrong. It doesn't help that I know exactly what virtual reality is and how it works so talking about "doorways between virtual reality and the real world" is so horribly wrong. I mean, I've only encountered radioactive spiders once in my lifetime (the radioactive snakes were more likely to bite in that situation, too), but in 1995 I could go down to my local arcade and play a VR game. It's not just familiar, it's familiar and simple. And done so badly so many times in the 90's... In this middle of this they had a Spider-Man Team-Up issue with the X-Men. Now, who would be the best X-villain to launch a Spider-Man team-up series with? That's right, everyone's favorite Shinobi Shaw. Mark Waid wrote it and you really can't tell since it's not particularly coherent. So you know that scene in Ruins? Yeah, that one. This storyline confirms it. The last comic here spends a lot of time justifying Peter hitting Mary Jane. I mean a lot of time on that. And saying it wasn't what was actually drawn on the page which just makes it come across as even more abusive. Someone Peter loves has been exposed to his radioactive body fluids and is dying in the hospital. There's a cure, but Doctor Octopus has taken it! So Peter goes to his base under the river, beats Doc Ock, then it collapses trapping him under a big pile of rubble as the water level rises. Can he lift such a massive thing to escape and get the cure back?! Maybe he can stop off at the George Washington Bridge on the way back to the hospital and catch a blonde girl who has been thrown from it by a goblin themed supervillain? After 77 issues of the clone saga, has it been worth it? Well, obviously not. While it hasn't been a complete trainwreck, it has been a whole lot of mediocre comics. I hate that the story constantly pushes the idea that a clone would be something sub-human even when saying the Spider-clone is fine (obviously "one of the good ones") which is morally abhorrent. The fact that they refuse to confine stories to a single series means that nothing is consistently handled and everything is written to just ride between writers. Traveler is a terrible villain and every single time he appears the story is awful. That page. Overall, though, it's mainly been comics that would be completely disposable and forgettable if they weren't part of an infamous story line. But there have been bright spots; Funeral for an Octopus was basically a continuation of The Deadly Foes of Spider-Man. Sienkiewicz's inking on Spectacular has looked really good even when it didn't match the tone of the stories. ASM400 is a really good comic. The Lost Years was pretty good. 77 comics down, 92 to go. So for this point on, I've switched over to "The Complete Ben Reilly Epic" collections that were printed a few years ago (with maybe a dip into some Amazing Spider-Man Complete Collection DVD issues so I can check out some letter columns). I don't know why Marvel was crazy enough to publish six books of this, but they're making my life easier. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 18:05
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Gripweed posted:Are there any American comics about physical fitness? NFL Superpro.
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Mar 9, 2019 18:30
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"Are you going to start whining about being a clone again? Because if you are, I really don't want--" Literally the first panel with dialog in the first issue in the collection. The absolute lowest form of comic book story is the one that tries to resolve contradictory continuity. Inevitably, it's revolves around someone just talking out the previous stories and making them even more convoluted. They're even worse when the person explaining things also includes "Oh, yes, I also went to some extremely lengths to tell the readers a very convoluted and unnecessary lie." One of the nice things about comic book companies no longer giving a drat about continuity is that no one writes these kinds of stories anymore. The title of the next major storyline might give away the topic: Virtual Mortality. I thought that they might have switched things up for the moment and had one writer for each storyline since the first two parts were by Tom DeFalco (a real mixed blessing there), but parts 3 and 4 had different writers (Howard Mackie and Todd Dezago). And then for more fun, it's not a complete story. At the end of part four absolutely nothing is resolved. Instead the next storyline is Cyberwar (part 1 of 4) because I guess we needed more really bad computer stuff. Speaking of really bad computer stuff, in this story a villain hacks some thugs semiautomatic pistols. They also hack a diesel truck, but that kind of stupidity regarding what computers control had been around a while. This was a whole other level. On the plus side, I liked making Ben a mobster's bodyguard. I suspect it's going to be over with by the end of the next storyline, but it would have been a fun thing for a little while if he was trying to juggle taking down a bunch of crime families with handling his own employer.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:09
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Gavok posted:So interesting thing about this one. They made a What If issue based on Scarlet Spider deciding he had no choice but to kill Spider-Man in order to save Mary Jane. Since they couldn't play out the storyline too much with the Clone Saga still going on at the time, they put in a bunch of vague scenes about where this could lead. I mainly remember Ben having a nightmare about Morbius investigating MJ's daughter's blood and an unexplained appearance by the Green Goblin. Which Green Goblin? It wasn't made clear. I've read the old What If story and it makes a lot more sense than the "There can be only one!" rules that the clone saga operates under. Peter's definitely the kind of guy who would be flexible and easy going about it. Maybe not "We'll both be Peter Parker!" but "You'll be my long lost cousin Petey and it'll be awesome to have us both around!" seems possible. I haven't read the mid-storyline What If. Ben telling MJ that he's actually Peter sounds pretty creepy.
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Mar 10, 2019 03:43
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Jordan7hm posted:Random Stranger and I are working on a podcast called Marvel Be My Destiny, that covers the Marvel Universe in some sort of chronological order. I'm going to say up front, if there's something you don't like in that episode, it's my fault. There's several things in there that I recognized as problems, and took steps to try to address, that were because of me. But don't burn me too hard because according to Cyberwar, the next part of the clone saga, if I die on the Internet, I die in real life! Still, it might not be that bad. I mean--  Really? REALLY?! Her storyline is that she just attacks Scarlet Spider because she's playing real life Mortal Kombat. No, seriously, that's the stated reason. A Bugle report sees her attack and thinks that random nobody jumping Spider-Man might be worth a Pulitzer. Maybe it's me but a Spider powered guy getting attacked by someone in a costume doesn't even rate as the biggest story of the day anymore, let alone significant enough for an award. Oh god, another clone!? For fucks sake you just got rid of all the clones, why are you doing a virtual reality copy of Scarlet Spider becomes real story! Can't you go two loving months without clones!? Using cyber-clone Scarlet Spider to make Ben give up being the Scarlet Spider is infuriatingly bad. People aren't going to give up trying to find the guy who nearly pulled the Daily Bugle building onto its side just because he changed his clothes. The consequences are all still there, they're just all completely unresolved! "She is about to activate a device that will allow reality and cyberspace to merge! I don't have to tell you, Ben-- the implications are enormous! The resultant reality storms and shifts would be devastating!" -- a horrifyingly bad attempt to inject a plot into this thing in the last part. None of it makes any sense on the page, it's completely incoherent and I kept thinking I missed something because anything that happened directly contradicted early plot elements. It's almost Morrison-esque in its insanity but completely lacking in talent. There's someone living in Dr. Octopus's computer who the first half implies is an existing character and they keep shadowed/pixelated/obscured until almost the end where it turns out to be somebody we've never seen before and likely never will again. Way to pay off the mystery there. The New Warriors issue they stuffed in the middle here didn't have anything to do with Scarlet Spider, but at least if featured all of the foes from Speedball's original series trying to catch his cat. Apparently his home town is "the only town in America with laws against masked vigilantes" because I guess all those other towns in the Marvel universe didn't pass any anti-KKK laws. Also, MST3K reference out of nowhere... Best panel of the story arc is Dr. Octopus's drinking coffee from a mug reading "World's Greatest Mom" held in a mechanical arm. John Romita Jr. took over the adjectiveless art duties and Al Williamson is inking him very clean. The art on his part at least looks terrific. So, that was a nightmare. So much for my hope that the comics would improve. Next time in clone saga palooza, Ben Reilly is finally Spider-Man. I think.
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Mar 11, 2019 01:52
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The saga of the clone saga enters a new era as Ben Reilly is finally Spider-Man. Oh holy gently caress, there are such things as issues of Spider-Man that don't suck. I was starting to give up hope. Jurgen's Sensational Spider-Man has got quite a few rough edges, but it's actually enjoyable. He doesn't have a great touch with the jokes, though it's better than most of the writers lately. The new villain is pretty boring and I'm not sure changing to off-brand Dormammu is actually a step up for Mysterio. But I could follow the plot, the artwork can tell a story, and it hits the right notes. So a very surprised thumbs up here. The actual plot, on the other hand... Oh hey a revamp of a Spider-villain is trying to steal a computer chip. Again. And it turns computer generated images into solid objects. Again. How is this the next storyline after Cyberwar? We just did this! That's not Jurgen's fault, the editor should have told him to change things up. I like the design of Ben's costume. Spider-Man's outfit has become so iconic that it's hard to drift very far from it. This version with the huge spider motif looks really good and I think it would even work as a costume design for Spider-Man today. Jurgens on Sensational is good. Amazing is bland because it got the weaker of the Spider-writers put on it with DeFalco. Adjectiveless has got great Romita Jr. art, but it's written by Howard Mackie and it's a tough call on whether I'd rather read DeFalco or Mackie. But because nothing can ever end in these books, there was one more virtual reality clone storyline with Nightmare in Scarlet. The story makes no sense and builds off a story that makes no sense. Everyone and everything involved it is terrible and I'm seriously questioning the decision making that brought me to read it.
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Mar 11, 2019 14:26
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Time for some more clone saga and this time it's mainly some crossover miniseries with the Punisher and Venom. They somehow missed Ghost Rider? Or did he already flame out by this point (heh heh). A dude in a swamp surprised by a bomb and then revived as a muck encrusted mockery of a man whose touch burns? Where have I heard this one before? Four pencillers and five inkers is the sign of a quality book. The Punisher is in the mob? I assume this was some kind of weird thing from his book but it makes absolutely no sense. At least Ben being Spider-Man was intended as the current long term status quo. If the same is the case for the Punisher then what the gently caress? Also, terrible 90's ponytail for serial killer who specializes in mafia goons. The Punisher crossover was just about unreadable. The first issue was definitely a case of "we'll just dialog something in to cover up this mess" and the second was just ugly. Weirdly enough, I kind of liked the art on the Venom crossover. There was actually some creativity involved in the layouts and character work. Larry Hama's story isn't really great, but at least it's coherent. That's a low bar, but a lot of stories I've been reading in the clone saga don't make it over it. Oh god, I forgot Venom used to be able to travel via phone line.  God I hate the 90s. Next up, more Dan Jurgens so that'll be nice. Unfortunately it's back to all crossovers all the time so I'll get one part with him and then two parts with someone else for Media Blizzard.
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Mar 12, 2019 01:31
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Gavok posted:Ever since the early 00's, Access has probably been the most successful superhero ever. That last story arc on All-New Astonishing Access was amazing. Marvel, DC, it's the 90's. "What were you smoking that made you think this was a good idea?!" should not be a question readers are asking. And yet here is more clone saga! Media Blizzard was a weird story. I like the idea that Mysterio gets magic tech that lets him make any television programming he desires with his only limit is his imagination, and then he just makes derivative knock offs of better shows. A clever writer could have had some fun with this instead of just saying, "Wow, these shows on the Mysterio Network suck." Also, Mysterio is enough of a nerd to complain about Star Trek: Generations. "Time to investigate the headquarters of the mysterious new television network whose programming is literally hypnotizing people. Why yes, president of the network, I will put on the VR headset you hand me without a second thought!" Mysterio's plan falls about in thirty seconds because advertisers suddenly think his shows suck. That might be the most unrealistic thing in this comic. The holiday special was fine. Really generic stories but the dialog was better than most of what I've been reading. Also, someone did marginal cartoons in the Spider-Man/Human Torch story which was odd since they never actually did anything with them. The next story in my clone saga saga is The Final Adventure in which Peter Parker has one final adventure as Spider-Man and he will definitely never ever be Spider-Man again after that.
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Mar 12, 2019 14:06
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Smart Hulk ruled, unironically. Smart Hulk was very awesome, especially since he made it clear that the Hulk could now be anything. The story was about Professor Hulk now, but next year maybe another personality would be dominant and we'd have a different Hulk.
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Mar 12, 2019 16:51
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean goons are going all out on the donations and patron so I don’t think Lowrax can afford to close SA at this point I'm not trying to discourage people giving, but it might not matter anymore given the scope of bills and the dwindling forum population. Give what you can since Lowtax has kept this place running far longer than it should have survived and he is in desperate need of financial support even if the doors can't stay open. Soonmot posted:I loving hate chat rooms. If sa folds, I honestly think I'll be done with the internet. I'm pretty dubious of finding another good nerd community myself when SA closes. I mean what am I going to do, go to reddit? Twitter?
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Mar 13, 2019 03:16
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Dr.Magnificent posted:What a difference 20 years make It's completely unrecognizable as the same artist even with the Hulk having a warped and twisted anatomy. Doing it intentionally and making it look good is hard, doing it like Spidey and the Punisher is what kids were doodling in their notebooks at the time.
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Mar 13, 2019 06:45
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It's a question of if the clone saga ends first or the forums do. But sure this must be close to the end, right? After all, the title of the story arc is "The Last Adventure"! Wow, did they gently caress up Mary Jane's characterization in this. Okay, Spider-Man writers have gone to the well of "Mary Jane hates that Peter is Spider-Man" before. It's always bad given that she knew Peter was Spider-Man right from the start and it usually comes across at being angry that he helps people which makes her look pretty awful. It's one thing to want him to stay in for an evening instead of cruising the city looking for trouble, it's another to get mad at him missing an event because people are dying. This storyline goes heavy on that second one. Even if Peter intends to settle down and not be Spider-Man anymore, you'd think Mary Jane would understand suiting up for things like "the world is about to be destroyed" or "I accidentally had a hand in creating a spider-monster that's killing people and Portland doesn't have any superheroes to deal with it (not even ones with birds on them)." But no, it's all, "How dare you try to save lives!" As a source of conflict it's really awful. If a major plot point is that Peter contracts a disease whose cure will remove his spider powers, maybe do something more than mention it once in an off hand comment found in a caption box in the middle of a lot of other unconnected exposition. I stopped and said, "Wahh?" then went back and that tiny caption is the first time anyone mentioned it. If this had been the last Spider-Man story as it was billed, it would have been a boring one that lacked any grand climax or even meaningful reflection on the character. A real lump of a story that wouldn't even be worth remembering. Next up in clone sagaing is The Return of Kaine. Because a guy who previously appeared three months ago needs a dramatic return.
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Mar 14, 2019 01:46
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Endless Mike posted:The comic where Professor X roller blades with Jubilee is *definitely* worth $500! It's a rare misprint where they put the cover on upside down. My trip through the clone saga has reached The Return of Kaine and... gently caress IS THAT ANOTHER CLONE?! Rich people having superpowered characters play Calvinball for their amusement is so goddamned boring. It's possible to make this kind of story work, though it's been used so often that it's reached the point of "lazy cliche". The way you don't make it work is have it be about punching for a few a pages as rich people chortle about their bets with an occasional discussion of rules that don't actually matter. One thing I've noticed with these constant crossovers is that the order is all wrong. Here's the thing, doing a four series cross over like this is like a relay race. You need to start strong to convince people to read it and end strong, while the middle parts can act as bridges and don't have to do any heavy lifting. The best talent on these books is in the wrong places to support the arcs. I'm sure it's organized this way so that in Previews all four parts are there and the schedule is locked, but if the books are interchangeable then so are the creative teams. And they just had two months where they had Scarlet Spider books with different teams. They could have completely rearranged things for a stronger line up. And to wrap up this reading block, more virtual reality. This was truly the "doubling down on bad ideas" era of Spider-Man. Dealing with new Doc Ock in an offhand way after building her as a major threat really seems appropriate to the time as well. I hadn't been enjoying a lot of Todd Dezago's writing on these books, but the last issue of Spectacular I read was actually one of the better ones thanks to having a fun scene with Ben, Peter, MJ, and forgettable Ben love interest wind up in a farce. The next arc is Web of Carnage in which I'm really dubious about. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Mar 14, 2019 |
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Mar 14, 2019 15:32
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This time on the clone saga, Carnage: Bad Spider-Man Villain or Worst Spider-Man Villain? Web of Carnage doesn't do him any favors as the only distinctive thing about the character, his fluid visual style, isn't even there. He's rendered flat and inert as he bonds with a bunch of other characters up until basically the last page of the story. And the concept doesn't even make sense, the symbiote detaches from the imprisoned Cassidy, gets out, and bonds with other people so it can get back inside to bond with Cassidy. It's not even an escape attempt, it just wants to get back to him when it left for no good reason in the first place. Yet another new generation of Spider-foe, this time it's the daughter of the burglar who shot Uncle Ben! With everyone getting a revamp and/or female version of the character, I demand a revamp of the Enforcers but women! The skeleton of the original clone turning up is a fun concept, and there's an appearance by the Crossing era Avengers who try to deal with the skeleton! I'd swear we were moving into a wrap up with Ben's scientist buddy having mysterious ties to some evil dude, but I know for a fact that I'm nowhere close. This brought me to the end of the third volume of the Ben Reilly epic. I am now 47 comics away from the end of the clone saga by these books. Did you know that the total number of comics in the clone saga is greater than the number of Spider-Man comics between Amazing Fantasy 15 and the original clone story arc? I could have read all of Lee/Ditko, Lee/Romita, and most of the good parts of the Conway run instead of this. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Mar 15, 2019 |
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Mar 15, 2019 00:50
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Gavok posted:Spider-Carnage got to show up in the final episode of the Spider-Man cartoon, which itself was like a prototype of Spider-Verse. The episode was also called I Really, Really Hate Clones. If Carnage has to exist ("What if Venom, but edgier for the 90's?"), then Spider-Carnage is at least a concept that something interesting can come out of. But the Web of Carnage storyline is all "Oh no, crazy monster is making me want to cut people up!" It's superficial. And I really don't like the design. Romita Jr. did the best version of it and his looked like:  While everyone else made it look so much worse: 
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Mar 15, 2019 05:08
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Send in the clones because I had a six part crossover for the next storyline, Blood Brothers. I've got to admit, this arc kicks off way better than pretty much any story I've read in the clone saga so far. Pete sells a picture of Spider-Man with the stolen clone skeleton to JJJ, and JJJ escalates things by hiring a forensic investigator to determine what the skeleton looked like when alive. The daughter of the burglar who shot uncle Ben gets a photograph of Spider-Ben removing his mask. Someone else who knows Peter's identity is targeting him and-- Uh, what the gently caress is this?  But seriously, this is was actually a good storyline. Giving everyone a personal stake in the story worked. Non-powered Peter working with Ben was pretty cool. This stuff even offsets the 90's-fied Hobgoblin. All of the writers seemed to be on the same page for once about how the story arc would develop and everybody seemed to be bringing their A-game. If the clone saga had been more like this story arc, I would have been enjoying it a lot more. I don't know why but Jurgens seemed more on with his part of this crossover than he had been in the past few issues. Spidey taking on a jewelry store robbery has some fun bits like one of the gunmen complaining about how terrible the webbing tastes. Or when he tells the woman complaining about how messed up she got to send the bill to the Human Torch. There's one major sour note to the arc and it's the last part. After five issues of Peter and Ben learning to trust after some issues, them teaming up and Peter saving some lives despite not having powers, and the previous issue having them work in complete mutual respect, Ben gets mad at Pete and tells him to stop trying to be a hero because Peter wants to find some answers while villains fight in the next room. Come on, you built some strong characterization for the entire arc and then this needless regression. The other problem is that the mysterious villain who is severely injured, knows Spider-Man's identity, has been plotting massive revenge as he tries to heal himself both remains unidentified and says that he's not the real boss, that there's someone else who knows Spider-Man and is plotting elaborate revenge. This could have worked as set up for Norman, but two mystery villains just stretches things too far. Still, overall, more stories like this, please. Next up, a small stack of single issue stories. Will this be a rare instance that the dumping ground that is Spider-Man Unlimited has something good in it? Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Mar 16, 2019 |
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Mar 16, 2019 01:35
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One more small block of clone saga down with a few random stories. The Spider-Man Unlimited story closed off the skeleton from the smokestack storyline in the most boring way possible. Reconstruct the face and it looks like Peter! Except they just used him to calibrate the machine so it must be a mistake. Oh well, let's never try this again or work to resolve this problem. Oh, and Spider-Man stealing a body from the morgue is a-okay by the cops when he turns the body back over to them because there's no evidence that he's a murderer. Except, you know, that he might have destroyed evidence by stealing a body from the morgue. The team of Superior Foes of Spider-Man going after the corpse for the reward money didn't really amount to a whole lot, either. Having them pop out on occasion and go, "Blargh! We're lower tier spider-foes and we're going to attack!" wasn't worth it. Romita Jr. is still doing great work on the art in Adjectiveless. It's the best looking of the books at the moment, though I'm enjoying the total package on Sensational more. The team-up issue with the Fantastic Four turned out to be a lot of fun (Jurgens wrote that one; I don't think the series had a regular writer) with a portal to a generic fantasy kingdom opening up in the FF headquarters at the same time as Spidey breaks in to prank the Torch. Hijinks ensue. Then there's the Onslaught crossover issue. I haven't read Onslaught either because I used to be a very smart person who wouldn't touch 90's comics crossovers with a ten foot pole, so I'm not 100% on how this ties in. But there's some nice scenes of Ben being the kind of every day heroic that we haven't gotten enough of lately as he saves people from a highrise fire and--  JESUS CHRIST! Hey, maybe don't put the jokes in the same panel as the guy screaming in agony as he burns to death! One thing about these issues, I really like Ben and Peter together. If the clone saga had been about Peter losing his powers for a while and Ben as his clone stepping up and the two of them playing off each other, it would have been so much better. I'm reading these recent issues and they're decent; nothing that's a lost classic but perfectly enjoyable comics. And I had to wade through a mountain of poo poo to get to this point. I'm wondering why it couldn't have been like this the whole time. Next up for me is a side trip to the miniseries Redemption which is a sequel to The Lost Years which I read way back when this mess started. I thought Lost Years was surprisingly good so maybe this will turn out similarly?
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Mar 16, 2019 17:41
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Spider-Man: Redemption was just a big wet fart of a storyline. Kaine decides to take elaborate revenge on Ben by having his girlfriend fake her death, then bring her back before telling the readers that she was "dead". Then Kaine tries to get himself killed and Spider-Man won't let him die. The end. Also, most of it was told in some really overwritten in-character narration with color coded boxes like I was reading a lovely book from 2010 instead of 1996. This was completely disposable and pointless. Mike Zeck does a decent job with the art on the miniseries, but it's nothing really special either. I hope he wasn't what you consider the best art in the saga. There's another pile of single issue stories next, but they cross the boundary between books and some of the comics aren't on Marvel Unlimited so I get a nice day where I don't have to read clone saga.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:46
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Skwirl posted:It was published under the DC label at first. They didn't create the Vertigo imprint until 1993, Hellblazer started in '88. I imagine they didn't want the F word popping up in a book that shared publisher labeling with Batman and Superman. They were published under a "mature readers only" label that DC was using for some series before Vertigo and they were fine with swearing and nudity. Presumably they still had some kind of weird standards that they were following that said "poo poo" is okay but "gently caress" is not. But it's time for me to pick back up the clone saga with a pile of short stories. I have serious questions about who in the Marvel universe is manufacturing toys based Wolverine and Sentinels. If Wolverine is the hero figure, then you're making toys based on real-life tools of genocide. If the sentinels are the hero figures, then you're making toys based on a real life "terrorist". It's about as bad as a toy company in the Marvel universe making toys based on Venom (something that is canonical from multiple sources). Dormamu-head Mysterious lasted all of one story arc. He's got his fishbowl back for this one. The Daredevil story was fun. Especially with Ben Urich, Karen Page, and Peter Parker all trying to cover for Matt running off to be Daredevil to each other. Lots of clever moments in it:  That "Peter Parker doesn't have powers anymore" storyline lasted all of two months. Oh, they haven't said that the seizure's Peter's having are his powers returning, but what else could it be? For a story featuring Dragon Man, the Spectacular story was not very good. But what can I expect from Spectacular. I flipped ahead in volume 5 trying to figure out where the big story blocks were so I could divide this up nicely and it looks like its mostly one or two parters. So I'm going to cut this off right before Luke Ross comes on to Sensational with Dan Jurgens leaving (which I assume is Rhyno's best art of the saga since I found the few pages I looked at to be kind of interesting) and just go with page count for my next few dividing points unless they land in the middle of a two parter. I also have Swarm to look forward to and who doesn't like Nazi bees?
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Mar 18, 2019 20:35
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The end of the clone saga is in sight as I press onward. Luke Ross has taken over the art duties on Sensational for the moment with Jurgens gone, and I'm not really sure what to think of him. On the one hand, he conveys motion and frames a story better than any artist on the Spider-books at the moment. On the other, the way he draws regular people doesn't sit well with me. It's definitely a stylistic choice rather than just not being able to draw anatomy since he puts a huge variety into his characters. Maybe dramatic hospital scenes just aren't the right venue for him. And the winner for most annoying new character is the assassin whose word balloons are peppered randomly with script and color. Bonus points because they had to be added as a different separation by the colorist who seemed to be working from a different version of the script than the letterer resulting in the wrong word occasionally. The new personalityless mobster villain is not worth it. He might as well be called Don Generico. They're setting up a mobwar storyline but there isn't a whole lot of reason to care given it doesn't make a bit of difference which supervillain mobster is in charge of the criminal element in New York City. On the other hand, the story arc that's been building about someone committing crimes using a bunch of C-lister's gimmicks could be fun. I want to see this guy geared out with all of this stuff and have it go hilariously wrong. "Jameson's been missing and his office has been ransacked... I really hope this isn't just the Scorpion again." [Three issues later.] "gently caress." I really don't get what was happening with Iron Fist in the Spider-Man Unlimited. He's hanging out in his office with someone who looks like the Contemplater feeling bad and then just shows up at the climax of the book for no good reason. At least I could follow why Misty Knight would show up, that seemed like he was just shoved in because someone wanted to add Power Man and Iron Fist reunion after the book was already plotted. It's finally here with the next block of stories: Onslaught. I feel ripped off after a previous cover promised me Onslaught and then didn't have anything.
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Mar 19, 2019 02:04
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It's time for more clone shenanigans. Also, the dream is dead. (Holy gently caress, I just realized that Ben Reilly is the Spider-Man in Marvel vs. Capcom.) The first issue was a Spider-Man Team-Up featuring the Avengers. But it's the post-Crossing Avengers with teen Tony and insect Wasp. And goddamned, teen Tony's behavior toward Pepper is horrifying in this comic. I wish I could find scans of these pages online so I could show them because they are that awful. Yet another clone! Okay, this time it's a Spider-Man robot that dates back to 1964, but it's still yet another copy of Spider-Man running around! Mike Wieringo is without hesitation the best artist on the book at the moment. This looks good and I hope he's on to the end of the saga. I half got my wish the Looter using all of the C-lister gadgets only to get pummeled because he didn't understand how Spider-Man's webshooters work. But the end of that story was a wet fart with there being something about the meteor I couldn't follow. Given that it's just the Looter, I doubt that this was ever followed up on, either.  That's not a flagpole, Pete. Oh, according to the cover Spider-Man 72 is "This month's MUST-READ Marvel comic"! That must mean it's good! Or just a long fight scene with Ben and Pete beating up Sentinels. They've really been hitting Ben thinking Peter is a better Spider-Man than he is lately. In this comic they also had Ben calling Peter the original Spider-Man. They're definitely laying it on thick. That's enough for now. The next block (which will wrap up volume 5 of 6 of the Ben Reilly as Spider-Man stories) has Swarm in it so I'll be all a buzz. Get it? Because he's made of bees.
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Mar 19, 2019 17:27
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The clone saga feels like it's winding down in these stories which might have been some standard fare for Spider-Man but also make it clear that they're setting up the ending. Swarm got to do some cool things, but the story itself was pretty bland. It was a completely by-the-numbers, villain shows up, take hostages, and a deux ex machina is built to fix everything. You have a bee nazi! Have some fun with it! Lovely tribute to what is totally the death of every non-mutant, non-spider character in the Marvel universe who are definitely gone forever and will never be back. Goddamnit, Traveller's back. These comics take place in 1996. Billy Conners is explicitly twelve years ago. Curt Conners according to the comic was a surgeon in the Vietnam War (implied, but since he was drafted into a war that's in the jungle that's the only thing it could be) and when he lost his arm there, he returned home to his wife and Billy who there's no way he's less than eight years old when this occurs and is more likely about ten. Then he invents his lizard serum and fights Spider-Man; since this is original flavor Spider-Man it has to take place before the five year gap between the end of the clone saga and today, which makes it likely ten years before the story takes place. There are just a couple small problems with this timeline. Finhead Lizard gets "snap!"ed by original flavor Lizard marking another bad revamp of a Spider-villain that gets unceremoniously disposed of during the clone saga. Buscema is off art duties and suddenly there's four artists who are pretty good on the Spider-books. Not all of them are perfect matches for the stories and there's definitely some time pressures affecting them, but now there isn't a bad looking book in the bunch. Boy that panel of Norman Osborne putting off talking with Professor Warren about his research sure was some subtle foreshadowing! I wonder if there will be a connection there... This brings me to the last volume of the clone saga. My next post will take me up through Revelations, which is the ending though there seems to be a few extra stories of wrap up tacked on here. That means there's one more day of torment in the clone saga's maximum carnage. If this be my destiny,the other clone conspiracy won't hit the big time. Kraven's last hunt.
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Mar 19, 2019 22:47
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