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we should just spend DoD $$$ on shitposters on twitter instead
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Mar 11, 2019 20:41
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 11:51 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The US will get utterly brutally owned in any shooting war with China or Russia isn't a right wing talking point. The USM does everything it can to suppress the results of these war games because they keep wanting easy money for worthless boondoggles. The right wing wants more money for the military no matter what, as if they're feeding some sort of martial spirit that grows in power with every budgetary increase. but why would you suppress the results of war games where you get owned if you want additional funding? you exaggerate the missile gap not understate it
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Mar 11, 2019 20:45
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russia's military is legit 50% terrible for everything except garrison duties and 50% pretty good China's military is an unknown and the next war they will either surprise everybody with how good they are or be a dumpster fire
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Mar 11, 2019 20:57
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the US military is really problematic the only real question is how problematic do you think china/russian MIC are and do you think they are worse or better
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Mar 11, 2019 21:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I don't think any kind of imperial contest in the 21st century is going to be "protracted." All the forces that will fight in a theater are already committed. The US Fleet Response Plan is for a CSG to be deployed within 30 days, but the war will already be decided within a month. A protracted war would require total mobilization, and there's no way the stakes will get that high without also going nuclear. In that case, whoever is closer to home has the advantage, even for a country as dysfunctional as Russia. there's the case to be made 21st century conventional war will look more like a 18th century war than 20th century war in the sense that 20th century wars were fought with WW/cold war mass conscript armies where you can lose whole armies in a week and have another 5 armies ready in 6 month to send in in the 18th century if you lose your army that's it, you can't rebuild it for the rest of the war in time without compromising quality. So instead of having frontlines where two armies are constantly fighting each other you'll have 2 armies wondering around trying to avoid unfavorable engagements and wars are decided by 1-2 big battles instead of 4 year grinds
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Mar 11, 2019 21:07
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LGD posted:yes, we all remember how Trump's missile strike on Shayrat back in 2017 completely obliterated the Syrian air force in a single blow and completely prevented their ability to use that base forever, and we're definitely sure none of this "targeting fixed facilities," "hitting planes on the ground," and "degrading command and control" works in reverse or would have any impact on an adversary's ability to target US airbases at optimal times that poo poo works for like 6 hours but if you assume the conventional war is only gonna last a week disabling an airfield for like 6 hours is pretty significant
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Mar 11, 2019 21:24
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Ardennes posted:The PLN isn't going to need to, the independence movement is pretty much DOA at this point. storming taiwan btw is gonna be like 1000x harder than most people realize
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Mar 11, 2019 21:25
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Cerebral Bore posted:They won't have to. If they get naval superiority they could just blockade Taiwan into submission. the problem is that you are gonna end up firing on EU/USA/Japan/Indian w/e flagged ships at some point you really dont' want that
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Mar 11, 2019 21:26
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Cerebral Bore posted:No neutral country will try to run a blockade in this day and age, you dingus. sure, w/e you say military expert cerebral bore
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Mar 11, 2019 21:30
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Cerebral Bore posted:I see you've fallen back on the old trick of not even trying to defend your position, and you don't need to be an expert on strategy to tell how that usually ends. Yes comrade Cerebral "Zhukov" Bore, in the event where there are pictures of starving taiwanese on the internet, no organization, government or private, nor individuals, would ever send a ship flagged under _____ to push or test the Chinese blockade
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Mar 11, 2019 21:41
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Ardennes posted:They will probably just keep the current strategy of just slowly connecting Taiwan to the mainland more and more to the point their two economies are practically intertwined and then push for political concessions. I could see Senkaku/Diaoyu being more of a flash point (China probably could just land there.) I agree with this as the most optimal strategy for the PRC, the question is whether the current leadership will opt for patience beyond 2040
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Mar 11, 2019 21:42
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Any conventional war in the 21st century is never going to last that long. Especially not if nukes are involved. WW1 didn't end in a significantly advanced stage of technology compared to how it began either. Everybody started out with barbed wire, machineguns, mass artillery, and poison gas and they ended with the same. Tanks were new, but they figured out how to counter tanks with massed artillery and anti-tank rifles pretty quickly. A case like World War 2 where technology can rapidly advance like that based on pre-existing development paths isn't going to happen again. There isn't some kind of great leap forward from stealth fighters, ballistic missiles, and nuclear submarines to some other sort of revolutionary weapons platform and doctrine. Technology doesn't magically advance under pressure like that. The industrial conditions of the early 20th century were still catching up with what science and engineers could conceive of. idk about the last part dude, hypersonic weapons are pretty big new thing nowadays for instance also there's all sorts of a.i or w/e development kept under wraps by US/China/Russian MICs so there's no telling what could happen once they unwrap them to fight
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Mar 11, 2019 21:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:Making arguments presupposed on the idea that the west actually gives a poo poo about people starving somewhere very far away and furthermore would piss off the country making all their consumer goods because of that just smacks of desperation, fyi. LOL even loving turkey sent a ship to try to break israeli blockade of palestine but yes cerebral bore, every single person in "the west", including yourself presumably, are evil capitalist bourgeois who would never, ever do anything to piss off china!
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Mar 11, 2019 21:52
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cerebral bore is the best because when he's stupid, he's at least aggressively stupid enough to be entertaining
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Mar 11, 2019 21:58
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Ardennes posted:Honestly, I think "WW3" probably is just going to be a series of proxy wars happening continuously but the major players Russia/China/US don't actually engage each other. Basically, the Cold War on steroids. it's pretty unlikely to hit 20th century cold war levels tbh mainly because i think the appetite for any of the major powers to put a lot of their own troops (so past a few thousand) into a proxy battleground is pretty low after Iraq/Afghanistan. It's pretty unlikely to see the US/China/Russia deploy 500k troops into Vietnam or w/e like US did.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Chinese could interdict blockade runners easily and turn them around without having to kill anybody. You are assuming the PLAN would never, ever gently caress up an interaction with a blockade runner...or five which is insanely optimistic
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Mar 11, 2019 22:04
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quote:You can say "that's illegal" but so is the blockade of Gaza. So what's anybody going to do about it?
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Mar 11, 2019 22:05
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
oh sure, but we are already in tom clancy territory so we might as well as keep going
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Mar 11, 2019 22:08
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Feldegast42 posted:
we've being having the 21st century 30 years war since what 2003?
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Mar 11, 2019 22:19
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Ardennes posted:40% of Taiwanese exports go to China, it is probably already too late. I guess they could "go nuts", but their strategy is clearly already working. It will probably just be a process of slowly wearing them down and they forcing them into some type of loose-EU style political pact. China really isn't interested in getting rid of the Taiwanese military, the Taiwanese dollar or even ruling Taiwan directly, but to essentially take Taiwan out of the geopolitical equation. there's also the fact that from what I heard, China has being spending a lot of $$$ bribing taiwanese military leaders/politicians, so it's quite possible a lot of the elite has divided loyalties Taiwan ending up "Finlandized" for lack of a better word is prob best outcome for taiwan, but I wouldn't be surprised if china pushes for full annexation as a propaganda move to gain popularity with its own citizens either
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Mar 11, 2019 22:23
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my favorite game in HOI was when I played as China, beat the japanese, then back-stabbed the USSR when Germany invaded and took over siberia
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Mar 11, 2019 22:37
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Ayn Randi posted:imagine being the guy doing the full deck writeup at the back of the rulebook that explains the historical context of all the cards I seriously thought about twilight struggle 2 before, basically US starts controlling everything and China has to take the map Cards: belt and road: China places 4 influence anywhere in Middle-East, Africa, Asia Trump tweet: USA lose 2 influence anywhere, gains 1VP Maduro: US loses all influence in Venezuela, China gains 2 influence The "Russia Card": 4 ops, every time a player uses it goes to other player "Syrian War": like Korean War in original but for syria Typo has issued a correction as of 05:15 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 05:11
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Larry Parrish posted:I'm 5 pages late and dont like being the um actually guy but generally the ACW is considered the first mechanized war, like a small scale ww1, because it had everything besides tanks and aircraft. howitzers, gatling guns, etc. the only reason it didnt turn into endless trench warfare was a population and productive capacity difference combined with machine guns basically being an artillery piece that was hard to quickly aim. but you had the same problem of railroads letting you move around just quickly enough to shove tons of troops into a blender "trench warfare ww1" really refers to "strategic" trench warfare that ran on the western front. On the eastern front WWI there was no strategic trench warfare because the front was too wide. The ACW can't turn into that at a strategic level (though ppl dug trenches at tactical level) because the front runs from texas to the atlantic and it's too hard to entrench the whole thing. It's a lot more like eastern front WW1 than western front.
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Mar 12, 2019 16:13
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Dreylad posted:even though it didn't end in trench warfare, you can see over the course of the war, battle after battle, troops start digging deeper and deeper fortifications and end up fighting in trenches in some of the late battles yeah Petersburg is generally considered to be trench warfare par excellence before WW1 but that was largely intentional on Grant's part as a way of pinning down Lee's army and destroying it
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Mar 12, 2019 16:13
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Mantis42 posted:During the Korean War the Chinese were nearly able to drive the US and UN forces out of the peninsula entirely. And that was at a time period when their industrial base was so underdeveloped they lacked the capacity to build a single tank. What do you think they could do now? Also are you trying to imply that the Chinese are genetically good at fighting wars or something? quote:The Union literally ran advertisements in places like Ireland and Germany promising Western land for anyone willing to sign up and fight in our Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of volunteers were found that way. We've always outsourced our fighting. This is actual racist confederate propaganda btw, one of the core confederate propaganda arguments is that they were "real protestant americans" fighting against untermenschen unamerican Catholic Irish immigrants Typo has issued a correction as of 19:31 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:29
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juche avocado posted:lmao that owns and that explains a lot of what I've seen in quickly looking this up lol one of the ironies about the acw and certain parts of the left like howard zinn is that they essentially accepted the "lost cause" mythos: in the sense that they think the war wasn't because of slavery it was evil capitalist north oppressing the south
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Mar 12, 2019 19:32
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General Dog posted:So was it a lie, or was it just objectionable framing? it's true that there were lots of immigrants in the union armies (because the mid-1800s northern US had lots of immigrants so even if you came like 20 years ago you counted) but the idea that there were hundreds of thousands of fresh off boat immigrants who arrived specifically to fight in union armies is bullshit Typo has issued a correction as of 19:37 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:34
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Mantis42 posted:
the US military while having utterly embarrassing moments is pretty good relative to other militaries if you want to look at a bad moment for china look at their 1979 invasion of vietnam
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Mar 12, 2019 19:35
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:nobody has a good time invading vietnam China actually successfully conquered and held northern vietnam for a long time in imperial times
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Mar 12, 2019 19:38
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juche avocado posted:
The idea that China just human-waved its way into victory in Korea cuz they had lot sof soldiers is also bullshit btw, human waves don't work against modern firepower and according to wikipedia (heh) the total number of Chinese+NK soldiers and UN soldiers were pretty similar in 1951 or so.
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Mar 12, 2019 19:42
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:yeah, they did, the french took the place over too obviously, that doesn't mean either party had a good time of it oh yeah, not saying anybody is gonna have a pleasant time of it even when you "win"
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Mar 12, 2019 19:43
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juche avocado posted:also there was a famine going on in europe and also republican rumblings so yk there were a whole lot of reasons people might have to end up in america during the civil war yeah the other thing is who is an immigrant in this case? I mean Irish famine occured in the late 1840s so if you came over back then by 1861 you were only in america for like 10 years or so are you still an immigrant or are you american now
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Mar 12, 2019 19:45
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juche avocado posted:well ok that's weird (that numbers were pretty similar) basically china won because they were able to infiltrate corps sized units on UN flanks without detection and did this over and over again for like 6 month because they were able to take advantage of their own -lack- of logistics and heavy weapon to use terrain impassable to heavier units. They were able to turn a tactical disadvantage into an operation advantage. human waves did occur, but when it did occur it was when the PVA already isolated and partially surrounded a smaller force and then suddenly attack under the cover of night to overwhelm an inferior force, then as the US unit retreated, ambush them again to destroy it. And once you destroyed 1 unit the whole UN line becomes unhinged so they had to retreat (and can be ambushed again) and the process repeats itself. So yeah accounts where "we ran out of ammo cuz there were so many Chinese" is true, it's just that they ran out of ammo and had no backup because they were already placed into a partial encirclement to begin with. PVA tactic was executed in an extremely sophisticated and intelligent manner over and over again. If you play HOI, it was more "infiltration" tactic than human wave as we think of british at the sommes etc. Once the line stalemated at the 38th parallel the PVA tried frontal human waves and it ended up slaughtering their soldiers for no real gain. Typo has issued a correction as of 19:54 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:51
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
This is true but the PLA was also a complete dumpster fire during the invasion quote:Not saying it was easy for them, but if they wanted to conquer Vietnam they could have done it with sheer inertia. the PLA was enough of a dumpster fire in 1979 even with serious numerical advantage in a longer war they probably still would have lost esp since vietnam had soviet aid
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Mar 12, 2019 20:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The speculation is that this was also part of the point. That Deng could prove the army was trash and needed reforms. Yeah, it was also to domestically weaken the PLA generals politically so it's easier to transfer resources from the military to economic buildup
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Mar 12, 2019 20:14
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Mantis42 posted:I never said poo poo about human wave tactics. Why are words being put into my mouth? China did well in Korea as a result of surprisingly effective infiltration tactics that were honed during the Civil War and WW2. They also had surprise on their side. I'm just posting not accusing you of anything
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Mar 12, 2019 20:22
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 11:51 |
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MacArthur is a lovely general but who was really, really good at PR so everybody thought he was good when he sucked he's basically the guy at your workplace who hosed up but kept the bosses happy so he got promoted
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Mar 12, 2019 21:25
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