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Definitely up for this. I like a good Japanese mystery novel, and I also like any time someone makes an effort to supplant a lackluster translation.
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Mar 16, 2019 11:04
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 04:55 |
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onsetOutsider posted:I just want to mention the original first line cuz I really like the imagery, but couldn't make it sound not weird in English. He basically said that it was an "argument with mold growing on it" aka a "moldy argument". I thought that was too weird to open with, but I can always edit it in if y'all think it's better. "I know it's a stale old argument" is what I'd have gone with. onsetOutsider posted:Ellery, with a subtle smile on his lips, turned to face the small young man standing next to him; circular glasses adorned his smooth face. The way this sentence is structured implied to me at first that the glasses are worn by Ellery, but I assume it's actually Leroux, in which case I'd probably change it to: "Ellery, with a subtle smile on his lips, turned to face the small young man standing next to him, whose smooth face was adorned with circular glasses." onsetOutsider posted:He'd list off all kinds of obtuse technical terms and mathematical formulas that the reader is sure to not understand. Given the voice you've assigned to Ellery, that should probably be the proper "formulae". onsetOutsider posted:More than twenty years ago, a bizarre building called Blue Mansion was built on this island, and people lived there, but now it was once again a true uninhabited island. "and people lived there" feels like the wrong tense for this -- I'd go with "and people had lived there" --- Other than that pedantic nitpicking, this was all pretty good, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where it goes, and what that incident was.
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Mar 18, 2019 11:30
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Your prose is better in this one, IMO. Only one minor nitpick:onsetOutsider posted:"We'll be fine," Ellery answered, putting a hand on Poe's shoulder, who was sitting on his cheap backpack smoking a cigarette. I don't know if this is technically incorrect, and it's not really ambiguous, but to me that "putting a hand on Poe's shoulder, who was sitting on his cheap backpack" feels very unnatural, largely because the "who" directly follows the noun "shoulder" rather than the name "Poe", which isn't a natural way of phrasing things in English. I assume it's a byproduct of the Japanese syntax? It's been a long time since I studied Japanese, and I never did learn much. I'd have rendered it as "putting a hand on the shoulder of Poe, who was sitting on his cheap backpack" Now: Here's a floorplan of Decagon House as we know it:  We should also remember that Van peered out of the room to the left of the entrance hall, so that is probably his bedroom, but it's worth noting that when he says "I went ahead and chose this one for myself" he merely "indicates one of the doors", and we don't get confirmation that it's the same one he peered out of. Also worth noting that as far as we know, anyone wanting to use the bathroom will have to pass through the main hall.
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Mar 19, 2019 12:27
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Honestly they both sound a little awkward, but I'm not sure there's a way around it without more substantial rephrasing than you might want to do.quote:"Are you guys sure you don't want me to come check on you, even once? The phones're dead here, ya know." After the six stepped onto the dock, which was creaking a concerning amount, the fisherman followed after them. I mean, I'm obviously just going on your translation and not referring to the original text, but I'd probably have written that passage more like this: quote:The six of them stepped onto the dock, which creaked in a concerning manner. The fisherman followed after them. "Are you guys sure you don't want me to come check on you, even once? The phones're dead here, ya know." That's a much more liberal edit of the prose, obviously, but it conveys all the same information without really changing anything, save only that it might be considered to change Ellery's characterisation slightly, since he now actually gives the fisherman Poe's name which he didn't originally. It does also avoid the redundancy of having "putting a hand on Poe's shoulder" followed immediately by "Poe, the hairy man Ellery had indicated", which I think improves the flow. The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Mar 19, 2019 |
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Mar 19, 2019 14:11
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onsetOutsider posted:I'm less inclined to do stuff like your second example, just cuz there's a distinct implication (I feel) that anything said in the narration can be taken as unequivical truth, whereas dialogue is just, you know, what someone said. That's also why I need to make sure I'm keeping stuff that's like, guessing about Orczy's motivations for wearing dark clothing, instead of stating for 100% fact that she is insecure of her weight. Yeah, I get that. I actually didn't think about that aspect of shifting the description of Poe's background from narration to dialogue, which was careless of me. I can especially understand you wanting to be conservative when it's a Fair Play Mystery, too, because that's a genre where it's especially important to make sure you don't introduce ambiguity or false clues to the reader. To some extent it's also a philosophical thing when it come to translation, wherever you personally think the balance lies between precisely converting the source text versus interpreting it into smooth prose in the target language. Edit: Yeah, your new version is much better. It's still a bit weird having that isolated "Poe was a fourth year medical student." floating there like that, but it's important information and you're right that it needs to be kept in narration.
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Mar 19, 2019 14:45
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onsetOutsider posted:Van leaned against the door to his room, pulled out a Seven Star from the pocket of his ivory down vest, and held it in his mouth. Then he looked over the dim decagonal hall once again. onsetOutsider posted:"Thanks. ---So it must've been a lot of trouble bringing up all the blankets and everything." onsetOutsider posted:"No, they're left over. Three knives too. The cutting boards were all moldy though." Again, I assume it's a byproduct of the original Japanese, but those two short "Then Agatha left her room"/"Then Orczy walked in" feel very unnatural in English. I'd change the first one to: "Nicely done, Van." Agatha emerged from her room with her long hair done up in a scarf. "I thought the room would be way grodier. ---Did I hear you say coffee? I'll make some for everybody." The phrasing "left her room" is something that you'd normally use if the scene was being viewed from a perspective inside the room she was leaving. You could also say "entered the hall" instead of "emerged from her room", in this case. And to second to: "Orczy walked in with a nervous gait." The use of "then" in the original isn't wrong, but it's odd. It implies a relationship between the events immediately before the sentence and those described in the sentence, and I think the sentence looks more natural without it. Other than that, this one was all great. onsetOutsider posted:P.S. White Crane, you did a really admirable job drafting up a floorplan! I feel kinda bad that you didn't know the text provides one for us! For what it's worth though, I was really glad to see that you took the effort to make one, and also that the description was sufficient for you to independently make practically an identical floorplan, minus some details. Eh, it only took me a minute. And I'm glad the one provided clears up the issue of where Van's room actually is. onsetOutsider posted:"I believe it was early on September twentieth. The residence of Nakamura Seiji on Horned Island, also known as Blue Mansion, had gone up in flames and burned to the ground. In the wreckage, they discovered Nakamura Seiji with his wife Kazue, as well as the live-in servant couple, for a total of four corpses," Ellery explained dispassionately. "Large doses of sleeping medication were detected in all of the bodies, and it was determined that the causes of death were not all the same. The servant couple were in their own room, bound with rope and then struck in the head with an axe. Seiji, the head of the household, was drenched in kerosene and obviously burned to death. And discovered in the same room as him, the wife Kazue was evidently strangled to death with a cord-shaped weapon. Furthermore, the left arm of her corpse was severed below the wrist. And that hand was never discovered anywhere in the wreckage. I think it's worth noting that the manner of Seiji's death could have been suicide. It would be a horrible way to go, but self-immolation has precedent in Japan. The presence of sleeping medication in his body as well as the others tells against it, but doesn't rule it out -- he could have taken the pills then burned himself before they took effect. I think you're also right that the missing hand seems like the strangest part of the murder. The fact that it was never found gives a strong implication that the murderer took it with them. I find myself wondering about wedding rings or engagement rings; they would be found on the left hand, and I can easily imagine that if the killer wanted them and found they couldn't easily pull them off the finger they might just chop off the hand in their haste. Also, if everyone was dosed with sleeping medication, why were the servants tied up? Did the killer wake them so they could be interrogated, perhaps?
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Mar 20, 2019 11:38
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onsetOutsider posted:I did this because both of them were introduced with そこに (soko ni) which is both really curt and gives the impression of like "at that exact moment, X happened." However, the final gospel is whether it sounds good in English, so it must be changed. Somehow though, I feel like something's missing by just taking away the "then" like there's no transition at all. I'll think about it. If you used it for only one of those two sentences, "at that moment" would actually sound more natural to me than "then". The second one with Orczy in particular, would work quite well IMO: "At that moment, Orczy walked in with a nervous gait." Or "As he spoke, Orczy walked in with a nervous gait." perhaps. The problem is that "then" doesn't usually imply simultaneity, but rather subsequency. "I walked into the room. Then the vase fell over." implies that the walking is finished before the vase falls. "As I walked into the room, the vase fell over." makes the two events simultaneous. Edit: another problem is that as I understand it, Japanese writing contains a lot more repetition than English writing, so you can get away with repeated phrases without it sounding unnatural. In English though, if you were to preface two sentences that close together with "at that moment", it would feel stilted. The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 17:31
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onsetOutsider posted:As the name "Cat Island" suggests, it looked as if some huge, black beast were crouching in the ocean. That should probably be "suggested", given the tense of the rest of the sentence. onsetOutsider posted:"Before we eat, listen up." Wearing a slim pair of lensless glasses with gold frames, Ellery addressed everyone. "Next term's editor-in-chief would like your attention, please Lensless glasses? Literally just glasses frames? Or do they have glass in but just flat and non-magnifying? (Also, this is another one of those sentences where the syntax is weird in English, because you generally don't use a passive verb like "wear" in the form "Verbing a noun, Person verbed." That structure is usually kept for more active things: Effectively, if the past-tense version of a verb implies a continuing action, like "he held the tray of cookies" or "he wore a black stetson", it sounds weird in that sentence structure, whereas if the past tense implies a discrete action "he waved a red banner" or "he broke the willow twig" then it works more naturally: "Holding the gun, John shouted." versus "Waving the gun, John shouted.") Content: Cigarettes! I note that we've now been explicitly told that Poe smokes Larks, Ellery smokes Salem Menthols, and Van smokes Seven Stars. This is totally gonna be relevant. Also both Leroux and Ellery wear glasses of some kind, with Ellery's being "lensless" and gold framed and Ellery's being circular. The fact that Ellery's are lensless (whatever that exactly means) presumably implies that his vision is fine, which might also be important. Leroux' luggage was "weirdly bulky", which Agatha ascribes to the writing paper, but could hide a multitude of sins. Interesting. Very interested to see where this goes. 
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Mar 25, 2019 16:41
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onsetOutsider posted:Since the sky was nearing full darkness, the main hall of Deacagon House was awash in very dim lighting. Whoops. onsetOutsider posted:I've gotta say, I did not (when I first read it) expect the chapter to end with such a rambling montage of basically completely random, seemingly irrelevant subjects. I mean, we went from a (all things considered) pretty random American horror movie, to which plants are featured in classical Japanese poetry, to myths about the moon. I can't even begin to fathom at this point how all of these things could possibly be relevant enough to justify taking up this much space, when Ayatsuji has established pretty strongly that he has no intention of wasting time/words. In another book I might write it off as a weird diatribe (or, well, a whole heap of diatribes), but because of this book's reputation I will trust him, and therefore continue to be super concerned for what kind of crazy puzzles we're gonna be faced with that requires this random crap to be established here. Yeah, that's a very odd scene. Takeaways: 1) Ellery is good at sleight of hand. 2) Leroux potentially learned about it from him. 3) Poe has fishing equipment. 4) Van is ill (poisoned?) or faking being ill. He locked his door, which seems like an odd thing to bother with. 5) Carr mocks Van for locking his door, possibly trying to discourage other people from doing it? onsetOutsider posted:@white crane: aagh, I just put preview to check over the next update and you've posted like RIGHT when I was about to! Guess I'll use this space to reply to you also lol. I went back and checked the word for the lensless glasses and then looked it up on google images (an indispensable translation tool btw), and it turns out they could have plain glass or empty holes, the word isn't specifically one or the other. I kind of assumed it meant there was no glass which is why I said lensless, but maybe "fashion glasses" would be more accurate, tho it kind of sounds stupider. Oh yeah also my nitpicky friend wanted me to mention that she approves of your grammar corrections lol. Also in general thanks for being my partner in crime, almost :P You're welcome.  Thanks for being such a good sport about my constant pedantry, and I'm glad to have a fellow nitpicker's approval! Re the glasses, I'd expect it to be more likely that they have plain glass, since that's fairly common for fashion accessories, whereas empty frames would look very weird. The reason I asked was because it seems like something that could come up in the future, with them possibly getting broken and there being/not being glass at the scene, and I wondered if it would be relevant, though obviously you wouldn't want to reveal that in advance...
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Mar 25, 2019 17:56
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Wow, that was a lot of updates since I last looked! So: - Someone claiming to be Nakamura Seiji is sending letters accusing the mystery club members of killing Nakamura Chiori. - Seiji could be alive, since he supposedly was covered in kerosene and burnt to death - perhaps the body wasn't really him? - Koujirou claims he identified the body, but we have no particular reason to trust him. And the fact that he has a letter proves nothing. Hell, he could be writing them himself. - Kiyoshi asks about the spelling of Kawaminami's name, which implies he didn't know it before and thus couldn't have sent the letter, but that could be a double-bluff. - Kiyoshi specifically tells Kawaminami that Koujirou has a word-processor, which could be an attempt to plant suspicion. Edit: Wait, hang on: quote:Koujirou took the letter and ran his eyes over the neatly spaced letters of the address information. Suddenly, his eyebrows jumped up and he looked back to Kawaminami. "Yes, come on in. I have a friend over, but please pay him no mind. I live alone, so I apologize for the lack of hospitality." Kiyoshi saw the letter -- shouldn't he have seen Kawaminami's name on the envelope? Or is it not common practice to write names along with addresses in Japan? Or is this meant to be a signal to us that the letter was written by someone who didn't know Kawaminami's name? The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 14:43
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onsetOutsider posted:Assuming Shimada isn't asking a redundant question , the only other explanation I can think of is that Kawaminami's name was written phonetically on the envelope. Actually it may just be that: quote:Shimada Kiyoshi explained, bouncing up from the rocking chair. Then he practically skipped over to Kawaminami's side and handed over the letter he'd been scrutinizing, and asked "Kawaminami, eh? How do you write that?" The way the question follows immediately after the line about him handing over the letter kind of implies that the letter prompted the question.
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Apr 1, 2019 17:53
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FWIW I think your translations are actually getting better. I haven't really seen anything I'd bother suggesting changes for in ages, so you might just be getting faster with practice. Also: Kawaminami > Can be read as Konan > Nicknamed Doyle.
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Apr 8, 2019 15:03
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Immediate question: why do none of them suggest dusting the boards for fingerprints? They're seven hardcore mystery buffs, the idea that not one of them thinks of that seems strange.
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Apr 10, 2019 11:20
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Mr. Steak posted:i don't think they have the resources for that. You can do it with a pencil and some sticky tape; It's not a difficult process - I did it when I was ten. I'll grant you it won't provide as clear a print as a proper forensics kit, but it'd certainly be good enough to be worth a try.
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Apr 11, 2019 09:15
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Mr. Steak posted:"What're you in such a hurry to do all alone in a dark room?" Car grumbled in a low and pointed voice. Van's hand stopped midway to reaching for the doorknob, and he turned to face Carr. Typo there: "Car". Though he pairs well with Van.
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Apr 16, 2019 16:36
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Mr. Steak posted:-Was there no blood at the scene or anything? Because there's no way you'd cut off someone's hand, even a recently-dead person, without getting blood everywhere.... right? Mm. Thing is, even without a heartbeat, chopping off someone's hand immediately after death would release a lot of blood. All the lack of a heartbeat would get you is no spurting; you'd still be looking at a damned big pool. So I wonder if Poe's explanation here is reflective of a lack of research on the author's part, or a deliberate deception on the character's part.
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May 1, 2019 16:13
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Mr. Steak posted:Good lord, these riddles are murdering me. I'm genuinely sorry for how loving unreadable this part is. Hopefully it's at least... a tiny bit interesting to you? The scariest thing is that this might be prepping me to solve this poo poo on my own next time, and you guys probably can't help me with that part! It is super interesting actually, but I love that kind of linguistic obscura. The one thing I have a problem with is that I'm not quite sure who's speaking at some points in this passage: quote:Ellery: "I'd never pull a ruse like that. But while we're on the subject, no it's not a trick that depends on me making a gamble on the probability that Agatha would pick a specific card." Ellery lit up a Salem, then let out a steady stream of air. "Next, let's do riddles. I saw this one in a book. When you look up (上) it's below, when you're down (下) it's above, it passes through the mother's (母) chest and rests on the shoulders of children (子). ----What is it?" It looks like Poe has solved the riddle, but it reads as so pat and definite, especially following his vague "I might've seen that" that I wondered if it was actually Ellery explaining the answer? I think you did a pretty loving stellar job of actually explaining how the riddles work though, FWIW.
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May 8, 2019 10:25
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Unrelated to that, Carr's poisoning. Possible vectors are: 1) The coffee, made by Agatha. - Unlikely, because it's far too obviously linked to her personally, unless that's what she wants people to think. 2) The milk and sugar, which everyone added on their own. - Unlikely, because only Carr was poisoned, and unless we know that he's literally the only person who takes milk or sugar, that's improbable. 3) Carr's cigarettes. - I think it's improbable that one could somehow treat cigarettes with a poison that was absorbed when someone smoked them without quite a bit of time and preparation. That said, we don't know what kind of cigarettes Carr smoked; I think the only time we see him smoking is when he bums one off Poe. 4) Carr's whiskey flask. quote:After a time, Carr threw his half-smoked Lark into the ocean. Then he sat on a nearby rock and removed a whiskey flask from his jacket. He violently opened the top and took a large swig. - Pretty sure it was this. Something only Carr drinks from, it'd be easy to pour a little bit of something deadly in there if you could get your hands on it. quote:"Agatha, don't tell me Ellery made you into a guinea pig for his tricks, did he?" Why look, someone who can perform feats of legerdemaine! *Narrows eyes at Ellery.*
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May 8, 2019 11:59
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Lord Zedd-Repulsa posted:They're all being drugged? Being drugged or have been drugged? What if they were all involved in something on Horned Island once before? Something that someone didn't want them to remember? I forget, is it ever mentioned where the drinking party with Chiori happened?
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May 17, 2019 10:01
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 I have very little idea who could have done it, honestly.
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Jun 6, 2019 11:13
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Mr. Steak posted:"This cup isn't ten-sided at all. It is... eleven-sided." That really merits an exclamation point, don't you think? I can almost hear the musical sting. *DUM DUN DUUUUUUN!* I like that they're going through now and shooting down some of our theories. I have no idea how this is gonna shake out now.
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Jun 19, 2019 10:23
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