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So yeah, I finally decided I'm doing this. edit March 25: Chapter 1 done!! edit April 6: Chapter 2 done!! edit April 16: Chapter 3 done!! edit April 26: Chapter 4 done!! edit May 10: Chapter 5+6 done!! edit May 12: Chapter 7 done!! edit May 13: Chapter 8 done!! September 23: Chapter 9 done!! [adapted from japanese wikipedia] quote:"The Decagon House Murders" is Ayatsuji Yukito's debut mystery novel. It was published in 1987 and spawned many sequels collectively known as the "Mansion Series." The novel had an enormous impact on the Japanese mystery movement, giving rise to a shin-honkaku boom [this essentially means the contemporary fair-play mystery genre]. The influence is so great that the period after this novel was released is often referred to as the "post-Ayatsuji" period. It has sold over a million copies. The length is apparently 290 print pages of Japanese (I'm using an ebook), which I'd estimate equals about an average length mystery. I got through between a third and half the novel before the amount of plot details and vital clues became so dense that I simply couldn't continue without going back and writing stuff down (I did make a crime-wall of sorts, but I wasn't nearly thorough enough and it quickly became too much to organize on one wall). But then I was like, if I'm gonna organize my thoughts, why not post them and share the mystery-solving fun with other goons? Note: for reasons of personal opinion, I'm not gonna be using the English translation published by whatever I don't care enough to look up the publisher. Instead, I'm going to entirely retranslate the novel from scratch, and post that here in full, in addition to my "let's read" thoughts. Why? Well I really don't want to waste too much time in this thread ranting about how bad and disrespectful the official translation of this novel is. I'll type up a succinct summary of the problems in spoiler tags though for those who are wondering "Why bother?" Ayatsuji's prose may be analytical, and mainly serves the purpose of providing clues, but it is also beautiful and has an amazing flow to it. And the translator absolutely demolishes any voice it had, in lieu of boringly stating the meaning of the sentences with no sense of flow whatsoever (though, granted, the rote meanings are correct most of the time). And the dialogue is even worse! Yes, Ayatsuji made the dialogue pretty analytical and it also mainly serves to provide more clues, but the characters have freakin' voices! Which, it seems to me, the translator didn't even try to adapt respectfully. I've legitimately cared for some of these characters over very minute, subtle characterizations, and when I open the English text to compare, it feels like he dropped them into a blender. A further problem is he uses such an obnoxious, pretentious vocabulary sometimes that clashes really hard with the bad prose and is just, bleh. I think he does it to sound more like Agatha Christie or something, but the Japanese text generally goes out of its way to be clear, so even if it wasn't a huge eyesore, using obsolete terms and poo poo just confuses the reader unnecessarily. I've legit read passages of the English text right after reading/understanding the same passage in Japanese and been like "what the gently caress does that even mean?" But enough about the translation. I want this thread to be about the novel itself first and foremost, and the fun of solving a mystery! SO, WHY SHOULD I PLAY ALONG? If you're a fan of murder mystery stuff, chances are this book was written with you in mind. Heck, it seems like Ayatsuji was just like "Wow I really love all these Golden Age western mysteries I've been reading. Let me write a book that encapsulates everything I found fun about them." The pacing of how details are given out (and repeated) feels very very deliberate, though at the same time extremely generous. With the exception of stuff that is concealed for super obvious reasons, I never felt like anything was being purposely glossed over. It honestly strikes the perfect balance between always giving a satisfying amount of new details in a given chapter, but never so much that the plot feels like a slog. When stuff needs further examination, it always comes at a really great time pacing-wise, in my opinion. The characters generally discuss things very analytically, though again I'm gonna use the term "perfect balance" to describe how they still feel like real people despite very clearly acting as vessels to deliver clues to the reader. And they do so from the lens of mystery novels, so they'll often be discussing the exact theories that the reader would likely be having at that time. Which is understandably super fun! The mystery itself is also quite convoluted in the best ways. There are a ton of moving parts, but the deliberate pacing makes it feel not so overwhelming. I just really really like the story so far (from my position of slightly less than halfway in). I have also heard that the solution is excellent. Though who's to say before we finish it? Answer: NOT ANY OF YOU, THAT'S FOR SURE. Which segues nicely into my rules... Ground Rules: Regarding spoilers If you have read the novel before, or get intrigued by this thread and go read ahead in that crappy English translation, why am I assuming no one here reads Japanese? lol then honestly, you probably shouldn't post in this thread at all. Considering the genre, I'm sure you understand why even cheeky little "ohoho i see your theory" posts are toeing the line into spoilers. For the intent of this rule though, that still counts as spoilers. And obviously spoilers are strictly not allowed, not even in tags. Even stuff like "Indeed, the solution is good" posts will make me very nervous. And absolutely don't tell me the solution is bad, or any other adjective. Acceptable posts from goons who have read ahead/finished this novel may include the following: pointing out a translation that is inconsistent with objective truth without saying why (though honestly i'd rather you just pm me that); also any kind of commentary that is entirely separate from anything close to theorizing. For example, "I really like character X because he's funny." Use common sense, guys. If you hate a character for reasons that haven't come up yet, or for reasons that get worse later, don't post about it. Also, I'm fairly certain this won't apply to most of you, so I'm comfortable being annoying about it: if you at any point read or otherwise obtain knowledge about future events in this book, and you want to keep posting, I require you to disclose that. Honor System I obviously encourage theorizing, and yeah, maybe some people will be right. I am not going to get mad at you for being right. However, I am also highly aware that sometimes people who know stuff will pretend they don't, and post correct theories (read: spoilers) pretty much just for the sake of appearing smart and correct later. I implore you, DO NOT DO THAT. ~~~ Phew! But enough with the negativity! I'm going to end this by posting the relatively short prologue. I was originally planning to do chapter 1, part 1 also, because this is not very substantial, but this OP took a lot longer than I thought, so I don't have time right now. But I also don't want to wait before posting either. I think I want to put interstitial comments whenever I feel like sharing my thoughts, but for the prologue I don't really have any. I'll write my thoughts briefly at the end of it though. I actually translated this prologue a little bit ago as an exercise to compare with the "official" one, so this part isn't quite as "from scratch" as I advertised. Though I did heavily rewrite it in preparation for this post. Also, fun fact, it is exactly 1000 words. I didn't do it on purpose, but how insanely appropriate is it that it's 10x10 (x 10!) words, in the book about the 10-sided mansion? quote:Prologue I usually dislike prologues, but this completely does the job of setting the stage for what's to come, in a very reserved length. I never really thought about it before, but I do tend to like prologues better when they're not much longer than a television cold-open would be. Still, it manages to establish a really bleak tone, which to me serves to make this man's feelings... somehow a little bit understandable, even though we don't have any real details about his motivations at all. It also introduces some pretty heavy themes right off the bat. I'd say this is an excellent example of Ayatsuji's ability to use words frugally, though it's actually some of his wordiest (meanderingest?) prose, lol. Well, that's it for my intro. I hope this is something that people might be interested in. See you soon with the start of Chapter 1. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Sep 23, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 16, 2019 10:39 |
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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:03 |
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:One slight concern though - OP is already translating a Japanese webcomic for GBS. I am afraid they might burn out. I did consider this, but in all honesty, that webcomic takes practically zero effort lol. Maybe if someone takes me up on my offer to donate $1000 to Lowtax to make me post 600 panels in 2 weeks, I'd be worried. But I don't think anyone's gonna do that. But that's also why I didn't promise an explicit update schedule. Cuz in the past when I do that it tends to be... wrong. So I'll let my updates speak for themselves. Side note: I'm starting Chapter 1-1 now. I haven't even typed one word of translation or commentary yet, so let's see how much effort this will be. (in all likelihood I'll post it tonight)
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# ¿ Mar 17, 2019 03:00 |
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Lord Zedd-Repulsa posted:I expect to mostly admire the prose Quick note concerning the novel's title: honestly, I'd probably be a pedant and insist that the mansion be called something like "House of Ten Sides" or "Ten Sided House" because the pronunciation of it is stated (in furigana) to be slightly different than the actual way to pronounce the word for decagon. Well, technically it's not written the same way either, because the full word for decagon is [Ten] [Side] [Shape] More literally [Ten] [Point] [Shape], they technically count shapes by vertices rather than sides, but it's the same thing., while the name of the mansion is [Ten] [Side] [House]. BUT, from a cursory google search, it appears that the jpn collector's edition of the novel has the English title "The Decagon House Murders" on it, so whatever, I'm willing to concede that. Anyway... quote:Chapter One quote:1 I do want to keep discussion of translation to a minimum and basically pretend that this is a normal let's read, but it's probably going to be inevitable and I just want to mention the original first line cuz I really like the imagery, but couldn't make it sound not weird in English. He basically said that it was an "argument with mold growing on it" aka a "moldy argument". I thought that was too weird to open with, but I can always edit it in if y'all think it's better. quote:"That kinda pisses me off." Sitting on the side of the boat, Carr threw out his prominent chin and twisted his mouth into a frown. "I don't like it, Ellery. All your intellectualism crap. I'm fine with treating some mysteries as games, but listening to you preach intellectualism at every turn, it rubs me the wrong way." Okay so I didn't want to break up the flow of this scene with too much commentary, so I'll say it here. First of all, oof! I was sick today but I powered through to translate this all in one sitting. But that probably didn't affect me too much. And I'm sure that once I get an ear for the style of this in English, as well as, you know, typing in the SA box, I'll get faster. No way am I doing this every day though lol. Ideally, I'll do a bit each day for a comfortable several updates a week, but all I'll say for now is that if I don't update for a week then I'll make myself post no matter what. Like, I'll do what I did today. Honestly, the existence of a full translation available to you is a huge motivating factor in, like, not boring you guys. It's also a motivating factor to write good, but... heh, we'll see what you think I guess. Also, I practically didn't edit this once I finished, because I am very exhausted, so PM me about any errors (if you care that much lol) and I'll fix em. Also also, just as a side note, I've found that the chapter sections are pretty much all equally long. Like, it's really good at consistent lengths I think. So we won't have to worry about one being ridiculously long or disappointingly short or anything. Translation notes in spoiler tags just cuz I want to distance myself from "admitting" that this is my translation, heh... Horned Island: Tsunojima. It's probably obvious why I chose to translate the island's name, since they almost immediately reference the meaning of the name in the text. Something I feel it's important to say though is that the first part of the name is the same as the center character in the word for decagon, as well at the name of the building. Blue Mansion: Ao Yashiki. Well, this was an obvious choice because the building has such an obvious translation that sounds perfectly fine. But for completion's sake I want to make the real pronunciation of proper names available to you guys. So! Since we were just whirlwind introduced to a bunch of characters, let's talk about them! Ellery in particular is very fun to I like how Orczy is literally only characterized so far by a single throwaway line about being, I guess more skittish than the others? I mean, it's only fair. If you don't say anything, how can you expect the text to devote words to you? Well actually, Carr isn't characterized much more than Orczy is. btw I hope I get faster at typing Orczy's name soon Like, he's kind of just... offended at Ellery. And crude. Despite the fact that he said like maybe 10 words to Ellery, I think their dynamic is funny. And can I mention that I love when Carr starts ignoring Ellery and Ellery just turns to Leroux and keeps talking without missing a beat? Speaking of Leroux, well he has glasses. That's his character. No but seriously, at least we also know he gets along with Ellery. Agatha kind of seems like your stereotypical energetic tomboy. Poe, well, he smokes and he's pretty chill. His interaction with the fisherman is priceless, lol. He kind of reminds me of Kiryuu from the Yakuza series in a way... like, in the way he's very straight-forward in his answers and sets the fisherman up for a joke. Fisherman is literally a cookie-cutter Japanese fisherman, and his son barely had any screentime but he seems angsty. Veeeeerry broad strokes characterization at this point. Which I think is perfectly okay! To be honest, I feel like the six named characters have at the very least been thoroughly differentiated from each other, which is really valuable right away. And really, their only purpose is to be suspects anyway right? Another thing I like about this "chapter" is how it chunks up the little scenes without needing to do an asterisk break or whatever. We're kind of taken physically around the boat to the different conversations. Ok wow I probably have more to say but I am very tired so I will add more later if I think of it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on anything tho! I live for feedback so tell me I'm great and I'll probably post more lol. edit: Oh yeah I also think it's hilarious how they keep referring to that incident because it's like, of loving course there's a mysterious incident. It's so par for the course that let's not even dwell on the supposed drama of it. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Mar 25, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 17, 2019 09:47 |
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@white crane I made pretty much all your suggested edits. Thanks a bunch for helping out. Also, re: the "Ellery wearing glasses" thing, gosh darn it! That's exactly why I used a semicolon instead of a comma in that sentence! I guess it wasn't enough lol. (also expect an update in an hour or two)
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# ¿ Mar 19, 2019 04:34 |
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quote:2 quote:Upon reaching the top of the long, steep stairs, their field of vision instantly widened. With a field that had been thoroughly wrecked by the elements as its front lawn, a single-story building with white walls and a blue roof stood there as if waiting for them. * quote:Van lead the group through the entrance of Decagon House. TL notes in spoiler tags! Nakamura Seiji This name is altogether very normal, but it's worth noting that it contains the symbol for "blue". HMMMM. If I was going to localize the names like I'm 4kids or something, I think I'd call him Nick Blueford. Lol maybe I'll do that for all the names in the future. It's fun. There's a lot here that makes me highly suspicious -- not of the characters -- but of what kind of tricks the author is expecting to pull with these details about the house's layout. And I love how the kids are tempting fate with that whole "don't come back for a week" thing. Place bets on who's gonna die first Umm also stuff about Orczy! Eyy Ok I really want to say more words about substantial stuff, so that it looks like I'm justifying the let's read, but I really just want to get this update out so I can go watch youtube or something Please discuss. I'll be obsessively refreshing my bookmarks. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 02:31 on May 11, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 19, 2019 05:42 |
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Calling it now, someone is going to invite a victim into their room, murder them and then switch around the nameplates so it would seem like the victim was killed in another room. This would only work until someone tries to leave the building lol. But I am just as suspicious as you over those nameplates.You (as an author) don't just do something like that for no reason. edit: @white crane I was actually wary of that line myself but I thought that "shoulder of Poe" would be just as awkward. If I was wrong about that then I'm happy to change it. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Mar 19, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 19, 2019 13:33 |
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Yeah, your first example is good, and I think the only reason I didn't do it before is I'm self-conscious about any time I'm writing too many words for a relatively compact jpn sentence. It's a concern I should kick cuz there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I'm less inclined to do stuff like your second example, just cuz there's a distinct implication (I feel) that anything said in the narration can be taken as unequivical truth, whereas dialogue is just, you know, what someone said. That's also why I need to make sure I'm keeping stuff that's like, guessing about Orczy's motivations for wearing dark clothing, instead of stating for 100% fact that she is insecure of her weight. edit: wait lmao your first quote didnt change it at all. I'm actually dumb Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Mar 19, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 19, 2019 14:21 |
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quote:"Are you guys sure you don't want me to come check on you, even once? The phones're dead here, ya know." After the six stepped onto the dock, which was creaking a concerning amount, the fisherman followed after them. I think this is a good compromise.
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# ¿ Mar 19, 2019 14:44 |
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quote:3 * quote:Turning right after leaving Decagon House, to the north, was a row of pine trees. That row of trees broke off at a single point, where the branches of the black pines on either side came together in an arch overhead. The four passed through that arch and walked to the charred remains of Blue Mansion. Fig.1 "Floorplan of Decagon House" Fig.2 "Map of Horned Island" -- Alright, so we've been sufficiently infodumped about that incident. I've got a teensy hunch that it'll be extremely important to the current murders that are obviously nigh. Also, to be honest it would be one HECK of a reverse psychology misdirect if it turns out the gardener actually did do it lmao. For me, the weirdest part is that missing hand. Like, first of all why was it cut, and second of all why was it never found. Are those the same reason or...? I am also highly suspicious of those three knives. Actually, the way this author writes makes me suspicious of practically every single detail, because he's both super economical with scene length and also super thorough in his descriptions. Which make me think every single thing he goes out of his way to explain has to come back later. Is Agatha planning a murder and cleaning the dishes is part of the trick?? I don't knooowww! If we're playing by "it has to be a misdirect" rules, then Van and Carr are already out for ever having been alone and hence suspicious, and hence not the culprit. And kind of same with Ellery for them literally saying how much he sure would love it if a murder happened. But I have a feeling Mr. Ayatsuji is doing all of that poo poo on purpose. P.S. White Crane, you did a really admirable job drafting up a floorplan! I feel kinda bad that you didn't know the text provides one for us! For what it's worth though, I was really glad to see that you took the effort to make one, and also that the description was sufficient for you to independently make practically an identical floorplan, minus some details. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 02:51 on May 11, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 20, 2019 05:55 |
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The_White_Crane posted:Again, I assume it's a byproduct of the original Japanese, but those two short "Then Agatha left her room"/"Then Orczy walked in" feel very unnatural in English. I did this because both of them were introduced with そこに (soko ni) which is both really curt and gives the impression of like "at that exact moment, X happened." However, the final gospel is whether it sounds good in English, so it must be changed. Somehow though, I feel like something's missing by just taking away the "then" like there's no transition at all. I'll think about it.
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# ¿ Mar 20, 2019 17:13 |
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@white crane Well it didn't feel repetetive because in the original they occurred in different parts of the sentence. Also I feel like the Orczy sentence is somehow entirely fixed by switching two words. "Orczy then walked in with a nervous gait." And I can put "at that moment" on the Agatha sentence. I sort of feel you wrt the point about repetition, but a lot of that is also on me. For example jpn has SO many ways of coloring the verb 笑う which covers the entire spectrum of laughing/smiling. So basically all of the multiple "smirks" and "grins" and "snickers" deserved entirely different words every single time but there simply aren't enough words in English. That also applies to quite a lot of transition words, like the number of ways to establish contrast or form condiionals is wayyy larger than English. Interestingly I was also having trouble in the 2nd update with all of the different words for "steep" that were used. In the description of the island I don't think the same word was ever used twice but I ended up having to say "steep" like five times.
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# ¿ Mar 20, 2019 21:10 |
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quote:4 * quote:At the remains of Blue Mansion, Ellery, Leroux, and Van remained. Poe had wandered off alone into the woods bordering the ruins. * quote:The forest path behind Decagon House--- * quote:"Before we eat, listen up." Wearing a slim pair of lensless glasses with gold frames, Ellery addressed everyone. "Next term's editor-in-chief would like your attention, please." SCENE BY SCENE COMMENTS Agatha, your first line is wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to start. You made Leroux carry your bags for you, Van offered to make coffee first before you barged in, and then you're the one who insisted on washing the dishes! Maybe you're just making girl-talk with Orczy but geez girl, get it together! Okay, it'll take a lot to convince me that Orczy isn't experiencing lesbian angst here. Speaking of, I feel kind of insecure about my writing in that Orczy/Agatha scene. It's our first look into Orczy's mind and the text has a ton of delicacy but I keep feeling like I couldn't get it to sound quite right. But if I keep staring at it I'll never get the update done, so... --- Important to remember: the Japanese school year starts in April. That would make this, I guess, their between-years break (equivalent of summer vacation). I'm assuming their given years are what they're about to start, since otherwise, like, Poe would have already graduated lol. That also means that a "New Year's party" is also like an "end of school party". Just stuff to keep in the back of your mind. --- Everyone else gets a single random mention of their field of study, but for Poe it's BY THE WAY HE'S A MEDICAL STUDENT every chapter lol. Not only that but we've been reminded several times that he's a senior. --- With this exposition about the name inheritance, it's pretty clear that the mystery club is more than just a reason for the main characters to poke the fourth wall. poo poo is probably gonna get complicated there... --- (edit: oh yeah, so now Poe has also been alone, and it wasn't explicitly stated but let's not forget that Orczy was also alone while Agatha went to fetch people for lunch, and Agatha technically could have done any nefarious poo poo on her way over. So the ONLY one who hasn't been blatantly allowed room to be suspicious is Leroux. and maybe, maybe Ellery) As always, please alert me to any embarrassing typoes I may have missed. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Mar 26, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 23, 2019 13:23 |
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quote:5 * quote:When the sun set, an antique oil lamp was lit in the center of the decagonal table. Van had brought it, hearing that the electricity was cut. In each of the rooms other than the main hall, thick candles were liberally arranged. CHAPTER 1 DONE!! I hope you enjoyed this installment of "kids talk about random crap for a while". I've gotta say, I did not (when I first read it) expect the chapter to end with such a rambling montage of basically completely random, seemingly irrelevant subjects. I mean, we went from a (all things considered) pretty random American horror movie, to which plants are featured in classical Japanese poetry, to myths about the moon. I can't even begin to fathom at this point how all of these things could possibly be relevant enough to justify taking up this much space, when Ayatsuji has established pretty strongly that he has no intention of wasting time/words. In another book I might write it off as a weird diatribe (or, well, a whole heap of diatribes), but because of this book's reputation I will trust him, and therefore continue to be super concerned for what kind of crazy puzzles we're gonna be faced with that requires this random crap to be established here. Also, a whole heck load of time was spent on that card trick as well. It's almost like this entire section was Ayatsuji making GBS threads all over his own pacing, and I'm just waiting w bated breath for it to come back into play so I can understand what this was all about. Oh yeah, shout-out to wikipedia for making poo poo easier for me sometimes lol. Also note: I'm not loving smart, I had to look poo poo up for all that history talk. Really though all you need to know is that those are books of poetry, and maybe compare the years on them. Recommended reading is the sanpaku article though because there's some interesting implications there. I'll quote the main bit here, a quote from some expert on superstitions or something: "For thousands of years, people of the Far East have been looking into each other's eyes for signs of this dreaded condition. Any sign of sanpaku meant that a man's entire system — physical, physiological and spiritual — was out of balance. He had committed sins against the order of the universe and he was therefore sick, unhappy, insane, what the West has come to call "accident prone". The condition of sanpaku is a warning, a sign from nature, that one's life is threatened by an early and tragic end." Watch out there Carr. I don't want you to die before you get any character development! You can't just be an rear end in a top hat, right? Ah, one more thing, I spent a really long time trying to find sources for the Sanskrit thing, and huzzah! I finally did! Also here is a way vaguer but super old and scholarly source which at the very least connects the sound "shashin" with rabbits, sort of. Alright, that's enough nerdy poo poo for one post. Next up will be the start of chapter 2 @white crane: aagh, I just put preview to check over the next update and you've posted like RIGHT when I was about to! Guess I'll use this space to reply to you also lol. I went back and checked the word for the lensless glasses and then looked it up on google images (an indispensable translation tool btw), and it turns out they could have plain glass or empty holes, the word isn't specifically one or the other. I kind of assumed it meant there was no glass which is why I said lensless, but maybe "fashion glasses" would be more accurate, tho it kind of sounds stupider. Oh yeah also my nitpicky friend wanted me to mention that she approves of your grammar corrections lol. Also in general thanks for being my partner in crime, almost :P Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Mar 26, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 25, 2019 16:53 |
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The_White_Crane posted:The reason I asked was because it seems like something that could come up in the future, with them possibly getting broken and there being/not being glass at the scene, and I wondered if it would be relevant, though obviously you wouldn't want to reveal that in advance. I'm not dodging spoilers, I just actually have no idea lol. I'm not saying exactly what I don't know because even knowing what there's a *lack* of between now and the end of chapter 4 (where I paused) would be spoiling. No I'm not gonna tell you whether someone dies by then (i'm not gonna read ahead until I translate the first 4 chapters. Cuz at that point I want to be able to give my unfiltered thoughts w/o any future knowledge. And also, like, I don't want to have to read the entire thing twice lol. It'll be rly fun for me once I catch up I think.) I think I can say w confidence though that if the glass part of Ellery's glasses will be in any way relevant, then it'll be explicitly specified at some point. Simply the fact that they were brought up (and have gold frames rather than Leroux's silver frames) makes me think something will happen. But like, every detail makes me think that and there's no way it'll ALL be used to solve a murder....... right? Oh also I forgot to mention that I do know how Ellery did that card trick. It's really not that hard to figure out. Well, granted I've had almost the exact same trick done to me before but the production of it was way worse so I figured it out instantly.
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# ¿ Mar 25, 2019 20:04 |
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quote:Chapter Two quote:1 * quote:"---Ah, is this the Higashi residence? Um, I'm a student at K University. Is Hajime there?" Okay, so the post-chapter break is done and I'm updating again. I'm definitely not gonna do this every time, but I was getting tired and it was a convenient time to take a break. To be honest, I was considering doing section 2 in this update too because this is kind of a relatively short update, but since it's introducing an entirely different "side" of the story, and also establishing elements that may put the main cast's actions in a different light, I figured it's enough. But yeah I'm going back to 3-ish times a week update schedule. It was at this point in reading that I truly started to feel scared for how complex the puzzles will be in this novel, and the reason is the names. The -minami part of Kawaminami's name is both written and pronounced like the word for "south". Higashi (which is one of the guys on the island if you didn't catch that) is written and pronounced like the word for "east" and his given name Hajime is written with the symbol for the number one. ALL THREE OF THESE THINGS ARE ALSO MAHJONG TILES BY THE WAY. Maybe I'm thinking too much into it, but the fact that the "east coast" or "south coast" etc of the island are referenced a bunch, and the mention of mahjong, makes me super scared for the extent of the puzzles later. Like, idfk how this stuff would be incorporated into a mystery but still. This is also revealing that the true names of the other 6 island kids will probably also be relevant, and we might have to piece together the names with the students. More explicitly though, we have 2 major reveals in this section. The mysterious letters, and Chiori's death. Both of them have huge implications, but I don't know exactly what they're implications of. It's all pretty crazy and hopefully you'll start to realize soon why I felt the need to go back and reread/write the entire thing down in English. Cuz it doesn't stop being like this. the published translation translated "third party" as "after-after-party" every single time which is so drat stupid and makes me very angry at how bad it sounds. Yeah, it was difficult to think of something that isn't a mouthful, and "third party of the night" isn't perfect, but it's goddamn better than goddamn after-after-party lol. Another note which confuses me slightly, is the specification that Kawaminami is a 3rd year 4th year next month, meaning what I guessed about everyone's years is wrong. That doesn't affect much except for I'm confused about Poe. I guess he's going to start a graduate program next month? Cuz as far as I know, Japanese university is 4 years. If someone knows better, please correct me. So, like, I hope people are enjoying this besides just White Crane (i love you tho wc) and the couple peeps who posted to tell me theyre lurking. I know there's no real murder to rly have fun solving yet (at least not one happening in the present), but it's definitely already throwing tons of puzzle pieces at us. I'm not sure how many of them fit together yet, but this is what we'll have to work with as foundation once the murders start, so don't brush it off. I'm pretty sure we're gonna be referencing the pre-murder chapters quite a lot in the course of trying to solve them. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Apr 7, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 30, 2019 09:25 |
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Lord Zedd-Repulsa posted:If there's one thing Japan loves, it's hidden meanings in character names so could you share how the ones we know so far are written and try to offer that as we readers learn them? I've been trying to mention the parts that stood out to me, but yeah I can give the full run-down so you're in the loop. Keep in mind that I have no idea what kinds of associations jpn readers might make with certain common names. I can really only notice what's not a normal kanji to see in names, or what's a weird pronunciation. Nakamura: This family name is overwhelmingly average in both writing and pronunciation, so I doubt we'll find any clues in here, but for the sake of completion I'll explain how it's written. [naka] is a very very common word meaning "inside" and stuff that's abstractly tied to the concept of inside-ness but that's the case for literally every kanji that's not a straightforward noun. [mura] is also a very very common word meaning "town/village". Seiji: [sei] is written with the kanji for "blue" (same as the one used in his creation, Blue Mansion, tho it's pronounced differently there), and has a normal pronunciation in the name. It is also associated with youth, and paleness (like pale skin may be described as "blue"). The [ji] part is just used in a lot of words concerning leadership, and it's also used a loooot in names. All it makes me think is that in-universe his parents wanted him to have leadership qualities. Kazue: This is super common writing of a super common name. The first symbol is mainly used in words meaning "peace" and peaceful stuff, though I also just see it a lot in women's names. The only thing that might stand out to me about this name is that the second symbol is the same as the word for "branches" that was used in reference to the pine trees on the island. Chiori: Another very typical pronunciation and writing. [chi] simply means a thousand, or just like all big numbers it's also sometimes used to just mean "many" but not that often cuz there are bigger numbers to use. [ori] is used to refer to textile weaving and stuff, and in one or two common words it's used abstractly for stuff like organizational structures. I don't really see a meaning there. Kawaminami: His name is weird for being pronounced as just the flat out words "river south" instead of the alternate pronunciations which are what's usually used in names. I'm pretty sure any Japanese person would try to read his name as Kounan at first. Notably, the "river" part of his name is not written like the common word for river (which is pronounced kawa), but it's all but exclusively reserved for official names of very specific large rivers. Most importantly though (maybe?) is that it's one of the kanji in the word for "inlet" used a lot when talking about Horned Island. Takaaki: Very typically pronounced/written surname. [taka] I've barely seen at all outside of names, but according to my dictionary I guess it has to do with respecting your elders. the [aki] means light/brightness. Pretty straightforward. (edit: actually I'm pretty sure this is his given name since it's written 2nd when he's introduced, but he's always referred to as Kawaminami in the text, so shrug) Higashi Hajime: This name is really stupid for being a full name that's a collective 2 whole kanji long. It also does the same thing as Kawaminami's name and gets pronounced as actual words. "East first" by pronunciation, or "east one" by writing. (edit: I also want to point out the only reason I "know" Hajime is a boy is because of the honorifics Kawaminami used about him when talking to his mother. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would talk to a mother about her daughter and use -kun, but in the extremely unlikely event that Hajime turns out to be one of the girls, don't crucify me lol) I'll do this from now on for new characters. Remind me if I miss any. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Mar 30, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 30, 2019 10:50 |
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In this update, we get namedropped real places for the first time. If it's not too annoying, I'm gonna link photos from google images so you guys can better visualize the settings (I did that for a bunch of other things too). I'll also arrange them all on a map of Japan for you at the end of the update, along with estimates of where places like O City and S Town might be.quote:2 * quote:Kawaminami was lead to a tatami room inside. -------- Photos of real places! Kamegawa Station Kannawa Mount Tsurumi Maps! I circled where Kannawa generally is, and I put dots at the most likely coasts to depart from, based on the fact that it's approximately 40km from there. (also O City should be real close to the coast near Kannawa) Kawaminami's path to Koujirou's house was probably something like this. edit: I forgot to do the new names! Koujirou: the [jirou] part of this is so un-noteworthy that I'm not gonna bother talking about it. there are a billion names that end with that sound written like this. The [kou] however is interesting. It's not *the* word for red, that you'd use normally, but it is *a* word for red. Like a deep, rich red. The point is it contrasts with Seiji's "blue" name so idk what that's about. Shimada: again the [da] part is literally at the end of a hundred billion names, but the [shima] part would make anybody's sensors go off. Cuz it is literally the word for "island" lol. Kiyoshi: Apparently this is Shimada's given name? This is another case of the narration using his surname cuz I guess none of his family will ever be named in the novel. This kanji is associated with cleanliness (spiritual and physical) and manliness. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 31, 2019 |
# ¿ Mar 30, 2019 19:11 |
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quote:3 * (for more about the Heart Sutra, check here for line-by-line analysis) quote:After leaving Koujirou's house, while walking along the mostly-empty street, Shimada stretched flamboyantly with his arms crossed behind his head. The action made his thin body, covered by a black sweater, look even more lanky than before. ------------ As long as I'm updating fast, small updates don't matter, right? Just take 'em as I make 'em! I feel suspicious that I wrote it really fast and then barely changed anything on a readthrough, but whatever. That just means I'm a genius I couldn't find anything about an actual restaurant named Mother Goose in Beppu by the way. That doesn't mean it's definitely not based on some rando shop that doesn't have an online presence or, you know, isn't there anymore but most likely it's made up by the author, which means the name is very deliberate. I'm ready for the mother goose puzzles, Ayatsuji! Idk what to say about the random reference to VERY specific Buddhist writings, except that it makes me scared (yet again!) for the complexity of this book's setup. It keeps on establishing random stuff, like mahjong/card tricks/mother goose/moon myths/cigarette brands/historical references to sakura and idk which ones will come into play. My biggest fear is that they all will.... Seriously though, could it be possible that the lengthy discussion about flower references in classical poetry was just completely irrelevant filler? Either it was, which makes no sense considering the writing style so far, or it wasn't which means what the gently caress does it mean?? I don't think I'll stop freaking out about this until stuff starts coming together. Oh yeah also I'm pretty sure sanskrit is the language of Buddhist texts, right? So that's at least one vague connection to Ellery talking about the sanskrit word for moon. TalkLittle posted:Refresher on their school class years: Very helpful reference! Note: Carr is the same age as Poe though. He started school late. I'm also not really sure what is meant by "science" for Van, since like... medicine and pharmacology are also science. That's also kind of why I worded it like "student in the science department" instead of "science student" which doesn't really mean anything lol.
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# ¿ Mar 31, 2019 22:54 |
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The_White_Crane posted:Wait, hang on: I think you might have hit on something here. Idk about common addressing practices in Japan, but there is a conspicuous lack of any mention whatsoever of the addressee's name being on the envelope. I would say that means the envelope simply didn't have a name written on it, except for one thing. A letter presumably also went to Hajime's house, and when Kawaminami asked for a "letter addressed to Hajime" his mom found it. If there was no name on the envelope, I assume the mom would've already opened it, since it came to her house. Assuming Shimada isn't asking a redundant question , the only other explanation I can think of is that Kawaminami's name was written phonetically on the envelope. Which means possibly the sender doesn't know how to write the kids' names? edit: There's another possibility, assuming this is something Hajime's mom would be privy to. Maybe the letters were addressed to the kids' club nicknames. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Apr 1, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 1, 2019 17:11 |
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quote:4 ---- This update was really loving long and dense so I'll do name stuff later. Also I didn't entirely read through it because jfc it's long. Please alert me to embarrassing mistakes. (edit: actually I'll mention one name thing though. The kita in Kitamura means NORTH goddamnit. I'm so done) This section is our official debriefing on the 1985 event. We had the gist of it before, but now we have a lot more concrete info to go on. Let's get to solving! Well, to be honest the gardener probably did it. It makes the most sense. Occam's razor and all that. One more comment before I forget. It's really funny how that poo poo about secret passageways kind of just frickin spits in the face of Knox's rules. Yes my commentary is really sparse here but do you see how loving long that update was?? Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 4, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 4, 2019 02:09 |
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Some thoughts: I've been super "suspicious" of Shimada this whole time, but idk what I'm suspicious *of* since he definitely isn't, like, about to go on a boat to Horned Island and murder some kids, right? But I get this really weird feeling about how randomly excited he is to hang out with Kawaminami (and he totally controls where they go to eat and stuff), and also how many details he knows about the 1985 case. Like, you could chalk it up to him being friends with Koujirou, but still. Also he is extremely forthcoming about almost everything, like going on huge spiels when Kawaminami didn't even ask him for details, so it draws my attention to the times when he's extremely brusque with his responses. Most notably when he is super vague about how he knows Koujirou. Something isn't sitting right with me there. From what Shimada said, Koujirou is 43 or 44. And from looking at him Kawaminami estimated Shimada's between like 31 and 35-ish. Even if he's 39 the years don't really match up with knowing each other in school, do they? Also he's just loving weird lol. TalkLittle posted:Although the police were able to identify them and the killing methods in spite of the charring - was there some detail of the bodies covered up by the fire? Is the police report possibly faulty? TV Zombie posted:Why burn everything down if you've killed the victims in a different way? Getting rid of evidence? I'm almost positive this is the case. The killer must have wanted the scene to be completely un-investigatable. Tbh I'm surprised the police were even able to get the information they did, considering the state of the house now. Like how do they even know where everyone was killed? TV Zombie posted:Also there is so much time between the killings and the victims having ingested equal amounts of sleep medicine that it lasted till Seiji was dealt with This fact is also suspicious to me. There are a ton of inconsistencies. On the one hand, there wasn't even any evidence that Seiji was tied up, yet the police included it in their reconstruction, but why would the killer have to tie him up if he was asleep the whole time, as they concluded? Also, they said Seiji was doused while he was still asleep, meaning the theory of "the killer had to ask him where the money was" is out, plus if they were all drugged at the same time then clearly the killer intended to murder them all from the start. So that's both of the explanations for "why leave Seiji for last" that are wrong according to the police reconstruction. But then on the other hand, if they were drugged at different times, then what the hell was going on during those 2-3 days, and why did the killings last so long? And what's with that loving hand! Why cut off the hand? I'm also wondering about the weapon used to kill Kazue, since the axe was discovered, where's the cord-like object?
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# ¿ Apr 5, 2019 21:16 |
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Alright, let's do names before I start on the last section of chapter 2 (even tho these new ones prob aren't even that important, but for completion) Yoshikawa Seiichi: The [kawa] is not the same as Kawaminami's name, but it *is* the word for river, the more common one. [yoshi] means good luck. The [sei] is not the sei from Seiji, it means truth/honesty. And the [ichi] is the symbol for the number 1. Just like Hajime's name. Kitamura: Well okay this one is probably important considering all the blatant directional names we've gotten so far w Kawaminami and Higashi. The [kita] means north. The [mura] is the same as in Nakamura, just the word for town and also super common in names. Hanabusa: This name evokes blooming flowers. Morisu: This is the only one of these names that's not in my phone's autocomplete, meaning it's not super common. If I have to give it a meaning it basically means "must protect".
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# ¿ Apr 6, 2019 02:56 |
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quote:5 * quote:"I don't know what they were hoping for, but I'm pretty sure it's a tasteless prank," Morisu said, comparing the two letters lined up on the table. "They wrote "you guys", so I had a feeling I wasn't the only one they sent it to." END OF CHAPTER 2! Every time I'm not spending 20 minutes per page I feel like I'm translating too fast and it's coming out super lovely. It's probably just unfounded worries. Hopefully. Also, geez the conversations jump from one topic to the next so fast in this book! They're seriously pared down to only the essentials of what we need to hear. edit: oh yeah, we got Morisu's given name Kyouichi. This is the third name with the character for 1 in it, which is, like, that's a common kanji in names but it's still suspicious. The [kyou] kind of means respect. 2nd edit: oh crap I wrote Shimada calling Kawaminami by his actual name! That is a cardinal sin! I've edited them all back to Konan now I think. --------- Organizing data from the 2nd chapter: Technically, there weren't even any mysteries introduced in the first chapter because nobody has died yet, but chapter 2 introduces a whole hecking lot of complicated mysteries. Three to be exact. 1) Chiori's death 2) Mysterious letters 3) 1985 Horned Island Murders 1 - Chiori's death We have no testimony yet from anyone who was there at the time of her death. Supposedly she died from drinking too much? Also they continuously bring up that it was the "third party" which I guess means that they went out after the official party, and then went out *again* after that? Why has nobody mentioned the 2nd party yet aka the first afterparty? Notably, we also don't know why Kawaminami and Morisu left the party. Several times it was brought up with a vague "he had something to do". (Also quitting the club a couple months after a girl dies makes me think it was more than just "the club wasn't right for me" or whatever) I find it strange that none of the kids in chapter 1 mentioned Chiori at all. Maybe it's like the elephant in the room? Maybe they didn't know Chiori's real name and never made the connection? Speaking of which, could either of the girls be currently wearing Chiori's old club nickname...? Well, actually there probably were a couple Chiori references in chapter 1, that I pretty much only caught when rereading since I already had knowledge of Chiori's existence. Mainly, the conversation between Carr and Poe when Carr starts drinking, where they are most likely talking about her death nigh-explicitly. There's another line in section 1-3 that has a completely different meaning in hindsight, and is kind of genius now that I think about it. I'd completely forgotten about the line, but when rereading it totally stood out to me. This line from Orczy's perspective: "It was impossible to ignore that Agatha and herself were the only women among their group of seven. That fact was a weight on her heart that she couldn't escape." Orczy is probably feeling sad about Chiori's death, rather than my initial assumption which was that she was angsting over not being as feminine as Agatha. 2 - Mysterious letters My main thing is, after we find out who sent the letters, what the gently caress does that even matter? It's not illegal to send letters like that, and I doubt any of the mainland people have time to go back and forth to Horned Island to kill a bunch of people. Unless one of the island kids sent them out before leaving? That's possible too, but then the question of "why" comes up again. We know that K University has lots of word processors you can use, so it's impossible to narrow down who had the ability to write the letters. It might be important to remember that we don't know anybody else got letters besides Kawaminami, Morisu, and Higashi (well, if we go one step further we don't even know Higashi got one if his mom was lying for some reason). We also don't know Higashi's letter said the exact same thing as the other two. Note that if the sender was one of the island kids, they'd have to know that the majority of letters wouldn't even be seen by their recipients. So whoever wrote the letters typed one up and then copied the rest. Is it significant that Kawaminami got the original? It also wasn't stated that Morisu's letter was B5 size. Maybe the copies are differently sized than the originals? Is this even important at all? 3 - 1985 Murders See section 2-4 for all the details. When I think about what relevance the solution to last year's murders might have on the murders happening soon, my first dumb thought is that the culprit of the old murders was somehow one of the island kids, and they're also the killer this time. Idk how that would be possible though lol, unless they snuck onto the island as a 5th person. Or one of them is secretly Yoshikawa Seiichi. I still think the "Seiji is alive" theory holds water despite the narration stating in no uncertain terms that he died, because it was in the context of explaining the police's conclusions, and not necessarily stating objective truths. I seriously doubt all of that information will turn out correct. Since I'm already so suspicious of Shimada, that mutual alibi with Koujirou doesn't convince me much at all lol. 4 - Misc Is Shimada related to that fisherman from chapter 1?? They are both described as dark-skinned!! Maybe the fisherman is one of this older brothers?? Tatsumi means southeast lol. Just saying. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Apr 6, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 6, 2019 08:17 |
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Why is no one considering the possibility of murder-suicide for the Blue Mansion mystery? It's the first thing that comes to mind. Actually, this comment got me thinking about the line earlier in chapter 2 when Kawaminami looks at a newspaper article and ruminates 死者の告発、か which I'd interpretted as "prosecution of the dead" aka "posthumous conviction" which would make sense if they thought Seiji did it (which I also think is possible). But thinking about it, the police believe the gardener did it, and apparently they think he's still at large. So I curiously looked up the term, and found a novel of the same name (older than this one actually) wherein a murdered person appears in someone's dream accusing someone else of killing them. In other words the more accurate interpretation would probably be "prosecution BY the dead". In light of this I've edited the translation, but more importantly that brings up even more questions, since K never elaborated on what the newspaper meant by that. Could it have been a threatening letter back then too? Or maybe a name written in blood (tho idk how that would survive a fire). Heck, maybe someone had a prophetic dream. I'm confidant that the corrected translation is more accurate, but I'm as confused as ever.
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# ¿ Apr 7, 2019 18:51 |
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quote:Chapter Three quote:1 This stuff about Orczy's connection to Chiori is making me a bit worried about... that she sort of has a motive to kill the other six now. I really like her character so I don't want her to be bad. Well, I also don't want her to be killed. Hmm. quote:2 So, it's probably not all that suspicious to put those sinister boards out in the first place, but not telling anybody about it makes the whole thing like 10x creepier. I still don't think I'd jump to "one of my friends is planning a serial murder" though. I also think it's weird that the boards weren't, like, on everyone's doors or something. They're not even directly saying that specific people will die, they're just... there. Being ominous. Ellery is all over the loving place in this section and I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. I think he 100% didn't make the boards, because if he did he would have been more organized. Based on how he's acted so far, he loves to be in the spotlight and controls the conversation 80% of the time, and he continues to do so now. But he always had a clear purpose behind his ramblings. Here he seems pretty drat taken aback, as his questions are super circular, he repeats himself several times, and kind of appears to get it together towards the end but it comes across super forced. Almost like he's trying to not freak out. We know he's scatterbrained but it's like turned up to eleven in that last part even when he's trying to be analytical. The only other person I have a read on is Orczy, because she's also 100% not the "board culprit" unless the narration was extremely unreliable in the first section. Or unless she loving made them while sleepwalking, which would be.... dumb.
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# ¿ Apr 10, 2019 08:18 |
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The_White_Crane posted:Immediate question: why do none of them suggest dusting the boards for fingerprints? i don't think they have the resources for that. also, quote:when in the end forensic technology saves the day, I just don't feel like clapping. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Apr 10, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 10, 2019 21:37 |
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The_White_Crane posted:You can do it with a pencil and some sticky tape; It's not a difficult process - I did it when I was ten. That's a good point. But to be fair all that's happened is some plastic poo poo with creepy implications. They're probably shaken up, but nothing about it screams "must perform criminal investigations". Even if that's a fear on their minds, actively doing something like that would probably make it feel way scarier for them, so they'd prefer to believe it's a prank. Tbh, there is a detailed account of who's touching the boards so far, so maybe they'll think of something like that in the future? Then again, every drat detail in this book sounds like foreshadowing, so who knows.
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# ¿ Apr 11, 2019 10:20 |
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quote:3 * quote:"Alright, let's continue," Poe said in a deep voice, plopping down on the floor. * quote:In the hall, having finished tidying up from lunch, Agatha and Orczy poured some black tea and took a short rest. * quote:Sitting on the dock they'd come in from, Ellery watched the colors of the dark water with an intense determination. -------- Unorganized thoughts: -Possible importance of the puzzle? - it's on the ground. maybe a murder happens in Poe's room and the killer tripped on it or something. Maybe a puzzle piece found in an incriminating location. -A puzzle the size of a tatami mat (almost)? That's a loving big puzzle! -Somehow the 5 fox cubs make me think of the 5 victims... (Even though it wasn't a puzzle, why am I thinking about that painting at the end of Battle Royale...?) -"This isn't a novel" - There it is, boys! Pack it in! -"Those were her true feelings." Orczy confirmed not the culprit? Post-section thoughts: So this is really the part when we can start trying to get reads on people. Here's my take... (gee it's like i'm playing mafia right now) Orczy: 100% innocent I'd be extremely loving shocked if she did anything, based on the facts confirmed by narration so far. Ellery: 85% innocent What I said last time, and also his behavior in this section just strengthens my belief that he's really shaken up by the boards. Leroux: 70% innocent He seems genuinely offended by the ideas Ellery is putting forward. Agatha: 50% innocent I get weird vibes from her sometimes, but I'm still not sure. Poe: 50% innocent He mostly comes across as a super cool chill guy, but there's also not much in his defense. Van: 25% innocent He's had unbelievably huge opportunity to set up poo poo, and there's still leeway for him to be faking the sickness I think. Carr: who loving knows Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Apr 13, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 12, 2019 13:25 |
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quote:4 END OF CHAPTER 3 @TV Zombie: Well, what I meant before about Van faking the illness was like, the thermometer was under his shirt for a lot of their conversation so idk maybe he tampered with it. They are just bringing it up so drat much that I'm trying to find any possible way it could be a trick. That said, the actual forehead touch in this section throws a wrench in that lol. Also my case for Orczy's innocence is more that we literally followed her as she discovered the plastic boards, and the narration explicitly said she didn't recognize them. So I think there'd have to be some kind of fuckery with that scene if Orczy actually did it. I like Poe's idea but unfortunately we all know he's wrong. I'm interested in lines like "everyone was taken in by Poe's theory" because that has to also include the culprit, right? From a "narration is undeniable truth" standpoint, it's curious. This section didn't have very many suspiciously out of place details, but the specific measurements of the decagon's interior angles make me scared for potential math puzzles. Just one more chapter (shorter than this one) before I'm caught up to where I read to Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Apr 16, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 16, 2019 12:49 |
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The_White_Crane posted:Typo there: "Car". lmao thanks
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# ¿ Apr 16, 2019 16:37 |
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quote:Chapter Four quote:1 I wonder if this is meant to imply that Shimada is not a Watson or a Lestrade but a Moriarty. quote:2 * quote:Shimada and Kawaminami were lead to a dim tatami room. -------- (Yes I am pretentious for using the word prevaricated. I acknowledge that.) I'm kind of too lazy to map out a route on a map for the opening section, but I may do so later if it seems it'll be important. It's entirely possible to do so on your own though (google maps is all translated), so if you're into that I encourage you to try it. Just search up Oita prefecture and zoom in on the north half of it. All the stuff is right there.
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# ¿ Apr 20, 2019 14:09 |
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quote:3 * quote:They got on the highway towards O City. Sorry for the short update, but the next one's pretty long and I don't want to have a whole week between updates if I can help it. It is still unclear to me how exactly Shimada drew the conclusion about Kou having an affair with Kazue from the fact that he stopped visiting shortly after Masako stopped working there. I'm wondering if we can assume from the information we have, that Masako left the island at about the same time Chiori did. Masako remembers Chiori's face, but relies on her husband's info to say that she visited the island rarely after leaving. Hmm... maybe Koujirou was only visiting before to see his(?) daughter...? Oof, if that's the case then it'd make him way more suspicious of sending those letters. Then again, the phrasing makes it seem like Masako left before Chiori did. Maybe it was Chiori's birth that drove a wedge between Koujirou and Seiji... Then again maybe Shimada is just bullshitting this whole thing. edit: I really appreciate how the mystery is so (apparently) connected to interpersonal stuff as opposed to being like a bunch of robots murdering each other. Also it's cool how deep the mystery is before anybody's even died yet Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Apr 25, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 24, 2019 23:23 |
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quote:4 * quote:Naturally, they had no way of knowing. END OF CHAPTER 4 And with that, the 2nd day is over! FINALLY, tomorrow, we're gonna be facing a live murder. And also I'm finally pretty much blind now except for the fact that someone dies in the next chapter (cuz I glanced ahead). That means I'll probably start putting more extensive live reaction thoughts at the end of each update. Cuz I'll be reading blind while I translate, and having opinions. We also now have the fullest picture of the 1985 murders and all the theories around it. Here are my thoughts. -Ayatsuji is making it pretty much impossible to "meta-game" this with reasoning like "oh, the text is trying to lead me in one direction so it's clearly the other one" because he's just blatantly laying it all out on the table clearly. -If we're placing official bets, I'd say that it's quite likely that the "Seiji" corpse has some sort of identity trickery to it, but whether that trickery was done by Seiji or not, I'm less sure of. Maybe the servant man who nobody's really talked about? -I'm positive the 3 day gap will be important but I can't think of how. Same with the missing hand lol. That's part of why I like this 1985 mystery so much. There are parts that are blatantly suspicious but you can't connect them easily. -There are also so many moving parts when it comes to the people involved and their relationships. I love how the question of a child's parentage can be so crucially relevant in this way. List of essential questions: The letters: Who/Why? (I think Koujirou is a likely suspect right now) Who did 1985? (Maybe Koujirou...??) Where is the hand/Why? (Something to do with wedding ring?) What's up with the burned body? (Probably hidden evidence but maybe it's a red herring) Who made the "victim" signs? (My blind guess is Van) I'm definitely too dumb to solve this on my own, so I'm counting on you guys to keep track of some of this stuff. I might try making a chart or something to sum up some details before I start chapter 5, but... shrug. There's a lot to remember. At least the text is generous enough to remind us of details pretty frequently and not expect us to have perfect memories. Then again I'm paranoid that it'll use that against us by failing to remind us of a critical detail. edit: btw we are about 40% of the way through the book. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Apr 27, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 27, 2019 00:36 |
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quote:Chapter Five quote:1 ----------- Live thoughts: -Man, I'm really interested in Agatha. I'm glad we're getting this look into her mind because she kind of seems like the most closed-off of the group, after Orczy, but like in a subtler way than Orczy is. Like, she complains about doing all the cooking/etc but never actually complains about it to the boys. I wonder if that's the only thing in her mind that she's keeping from the rest.... -Detail that catches my eye #1: Agatha's low blood pressure. -Jfc does everybody on this island smoke? lol -I love the way the "something red" scene was written to make you definitely think it was talking about blood at first. At least, for me it worked lol. -Wow ok that thunk will surely be important. Gotta keep that in mind. -"The door was unlocked." I am offended. Who do you think you are getting murdered in a not closed-room fashion? -"Orczy's body, which could no longer move nor feel shame." This part was really beautiful in Japanese and I feel like I butchered it. It's written like those are the two things most indicative of Orczy's life: movement, and being shy. Poor Orczy! :'( -Re: Poe - I generally like to believe that characters are not this good at acting, so I'll feel more than a bit betrayed if it turns out Poe killed Orczy. Post-section thoughts: Okay, so that was all-around a pretty unexpected scene between Poe and Carr there, and I'm definitely surprised that everyone was so alright with not checking the body. Right now there are essentially no clues about the murder except for social clues during the discovery. At least, not that I can tell. I've gotta say I'm still super intrigued with the way Ayatsuji sets up information in this book. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Apr 30, 2019 |
# ¿ Apr 30, 2019 11:47 |
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quote:2 ----- Live thoughts: -I think it's funny how Leroux just rapid-fire spouts off all these cliche "character in denial" lines one after another. -Was there no blood at the scene or anything? Because there's no way you'd cut off someone's hand, even a recently-dead person, without getting blood everywhere.... right? (Oh nevermind, they brought that up) -Poe's hands mean that at the very least the killer had to have gotten blood on their hands. That means that they either wiped them with something, or had to visit the bathroom afterwards.... hm... -I really like the detail of Poe's time-of-death explanation. Post-section thoughts: I'm too tired and stupid to draw conclusions or theories from the new details. But I think we can safely assume the next murder/murders will be from an axe to the head? edit: changed "satire" to "pastiche" and "parodying" to "copying" Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 22:13 on May 1, 2019 |
# ¿ May 1, 2019 02:32 |
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The_White_Crane posted:Mm. Thing is, even without a heartbeat, chopping off someone's hand immediately after death would release a lot of blood. All the lack of a heartbeat would get you is no spurting; you'd still be looking at a damned big pool. I'm pretty sure we can trust the author's research considering the explanation of the time of death. But idk if that means Poe is definitely being deceitful either. Maybe Poe is considering if the hand was cut like... an hour or more after her death? I'm not sure when exactly there would be significantly less blood. There's also the possibility that Poe doesn't know super well about post-mortem bleeding. fast edit: that said, I'm pretty confident the body was moved after death. The tidiness of the corpse along with the lack of blood found at the scene makes me pretty sure about that right now.
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# ¿ May 1, 2019 20:50 |
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quote:3 * quote:"Yeah, there's no boats at all. And we don't have the tools to chop trees and make a raft. And even if we did, it'd be a roll of the dice whether we reach the shore. ----Want a smoke, Van?" * quote:"Actually Leroux, I think there's another possibility." ----- Part 1 thoughts: I'm really interested in Carr too. Am I just super easy to get invested in characters or are the characters in this really subtle and interesting? Probably a little bit of both. Man, I'm still upset that Orczy died so soon. I really wanted to know more about what made her tick. (And also it might've been cute if Carr actually was interested in Orczy and they had some cute interactions...) Also, for the record I completely agree with Carr, and not just because I want more details as a reader. It was totally irresponsible of the others to let Poe basically have an "information monopoly" over them. [By the way, this is officially the end of where I've skimmed ahead. From this point on I'm translating completely blind, as I read.] Part 2 thoughts: -"Poe, Van, and Agatha" ok so Ellery and Leroux are 100% definitely just loving around right now lol. -I like the idea that Poe just has a functionally infinite amount of cigarettes that he's constantly smoking/lending lol. -"None of us could have seen this coming." Well, one person certainly did. Agatha? She's the one who told the fisherman not to come, iirc. -The order of the dialogue after Agatha said "absolutely not" is slightly confusing. I'm fairly certain the order goes like this: Van, Poe, Van, Agatha, Van, and then a line is attributed to Poe. To reflect that, I added an attribution to Agatha. I'm sorry Ayatsuji! -Can't they use wood from the dead trees around Blue Mansion to build a fire...? -Agatha has a verifiable alibi...? C'mon girl, if this is some weak poo poo then that just makes you look suspicious. Part 3 thoughts: -I enjoy that transition very much. -I was gonna call the extra person a "third party individual" but realized that might add a fake association to that new year's party lol. -Oh, I kind of assumed Agatha etc were near the inlet area looking for canoes or whatever in the boathouse, since Poe mentions building a raft right after. I guess they were talking about seeing boats on the water though. Looking at the map again, I guess the inlet could be considered west coast. If they're heading up the east coast then the groups might actually converge right on top of Carr lol. (I'm starting to get a headache thinking about this. Luckily the translation doesn't depend on me understanding poo poo. For example I didn't have to edit any translations after this revelation.) -Ohh they're bringing up the Seiji theory already! Here we go... -I hate how every entrance was unlocked. I mean, that's the smartest thing to do if you're the killer. Leave everything unlocked so there are too many variables to deduce anything. -Is this the first time they mentioned that the front door lock is broken...? How does Ellery know that? -Time to check back to when the kitchen doors were opened during the sign-discovery scene. Could the outside culprit be sure they'd be able to see into the hall? (for some reason I'm reminded that the sakura trees are out near the kitchen window) -Super notable that Ellery doesn't bring up Chiori when asked about Seiji's motive. -Leroux is about to remember Chiori...?? -Man, there's *gotta* be something deeper about Ellery's character. He better not die before we get more into his feelings! Final thoughts: Wow, reading more of this after so long (since I've been REreading this whole time) is giving me that familiar feeling of having my head full to the brim with new details, and I probably won't get to sleep tonight because of it lol. I feel just like Leroux right now. I love how every single line feels like it has gravity, but also it's slightly exhausting... heh. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 09:42 on May 2, 2019 |
# ¿ May 2, 2019 09:34 |
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(sorry for the delay. i had family over for the weekend. also this section was a bitch)quote:4 * quote:"There you go. Add as much sugar and milk as you like." Agatha set the tray containing six moss-green cups onto the table. * quote:It was 2:30am that night. ---- Good lord, these riddles are murdering me. I'm genuinely sorry for how loving unreadable this part is. Hopefully it's at least... a tiny bit interesting to you? The scariest thing is that this might be prepping me to solve this poo poo on my own next time, and you guys probably can't help me with that part! Potentially notable is that the answer to the first riddle is present in quite a few character names. It's the "ichi" in Kyouichi and Seiichi, and it's the "hajime" in... Hajime. gently caress if I know how that might be notable, but it could be?? I have no clue what Ellery is talking about with the Bible poo poo. Ugh holy poo poo these wakas are giving me such a headache to even read. After some rigorous searching I found a bunch of blog posts about this specific dialogue, so that's the only way I was possibly able to translate it. I am *not* good at reading classical Japanese. Ellery I literally hate you, you have made this translation take SO much longer. Final notes on the first bit: gently caress all that noise and I never want to think about it again. Okay in all seriousness though, I do have thoughts on Carr's stuff at the end. It's noble of him to send Agatha away and keep his anger in check. Essentially he's practicing what he's preaching wrt respecting Orczy's memory. PLEASE DON'T DIE TONIGHT CARR! By the way, in case that hyperlink was unclear, I wanted to draw attention to the fact that "sakura" was used to mean "staged audience member". Since there are sakura trees in the back yard, I mean. Listen I don't know what will be relevant later and that stood out to me! Ellery, just goddamn finish your thought before trailing off into stream of consciousness please. gently caress NO DON'T loving DIE CARR. Carr has been compared to a lot of seafood lol. First crab and now shrimp. It's making me hungry. Fuuuuuuck! And then there were five... Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 07:34 on May 8, 2019 |
# ¿ May 7, 2019 15:54 |
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gently caress DID I SAY TEA I MEANT COFFEE (re: ellery)
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# ¿ May 8, 2019 07:16 |
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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:03 |
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The_White_Crane posted:It looks like Poe has solved the riddle, but it reads as so pat and definite, especially following his vague "I might've seen that" that I wondered if it was actually Ellery explaining the answer? I was sort of puzzled over that too (obviously I need to figure out who's saying each line besides ones like "a basement?" or whatever). My final judgement was that Poe just solves it weirdly fast, and then also is the one who says "exactly" after either Agatha or Leroux (probably Agatha) puts it all together. Since the text says Ellery is jumping back into the conversation with his random fun facts, I figure he didn't speak since giving the hint.
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# ¿ May 8, 2019 11:19 |