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AceOfFlames posted:So from the looks of things, your government is going to do loving zilch about Brexit until October where the whole madness starts all over again. Am I correct in this assessment? yep. the moment we got the extension everyone went to the pub and all the papers started going "oh so brexit is over now" until it became a bludgeon to beat labour with
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Apr 30, 2019 20:31
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Josef bugman posted:2) Be far too associated with Corbyn to be a success with the Labour Right. Is he? He was independently elected vice leader. Doesn't mean he has ever been bosom buddies with Corbyn; this isn't America, we dont do running mates.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:33
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AceOfFlames posted:So from the looks of things, your government is going to do loving zilch about Brexit until October where the whole madness starts all over again. Am I correct in this assessment? Tbh nothing was ever going to be done in the gap between the locals and cliff edge panic, now with the euros theirs a whole month more of extra campaigning. Once those are out of the way there will be a brief pause as the Tories who have been sharpening their knives consult the results and decide if it's worth using them
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Apr 30, 2019 20:33
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supposedly watson is a poo poo IRL though so i dunno how many friends he actually has in parliament source: my parents used to work with him
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Apr 30, 2019 20:34
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AceOfFlames posted:So from the looks of things, your government is going to do loving zilch about Brexit until October where the whole madness starts all over again. Am I correct in this assessment? The Tories know Brexit makes their supporters very angry right now, so they're intentionally not mentioning it until after the local and EU elections. Labour are obviously fence-sitting on Brexit and are stronger than the Tories on local issues anyway, so they have no problem joining the pact of silence. Meanwhile the smaller parties are trying to make everything about Brexit, because it's the only way they'll get any votes.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:36
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So we're probably talking a brief flurry of activity if a heave attempt is launched after Whitsun recess in early June and from like the end of July to the start of October there's usually only about a week's worth of business so another month of chaos seems likely
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Apr 30, 2019 20:37
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Yeah parliament has a big summer recess and they're obviously not gonna change that because of brexit so they're likely not gonna get much done.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:39
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Hentai Jihadist posted:supposedly watson is a poo poo IRL though so i dunno how many friends he actually has in parliament parliament: the cool place were friendships are made between people who arent shits
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Apr 30, 2019 20:39
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I opened the google News app for the first time in forever recently, and now I keep getting story notifications that are like "Tom Watson does this or that" so he's at least getting a bunch of publicity and recognition as some kind of important figure He's also been trying to run his own parallel antisemitism complaints system, and setting up a kind of shadow party within Labour - the PLP is still trying to get Corbyn out, and it kinda looks like Watson is trying to step in to fill the enormous political vacuum left when the leading lights left to start Not A Party Guv. And remember, he was trying to be a wrecker before - they all just kinda shut up for a bit
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Apr 30, 2019 20:41
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Comrade Fakename posted:With the new thread presumably coming in a few hours can we consider having a poll of whether we think Brexit will happen by 31 October? I think it could be interesting.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:42
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ronya posted:the thing is, even if one is secretly hoping for the MP for Holborn and St Pancras to sally in and save the day, the strategy of forcing these battles appears to be working. Consider Owen Smith, who lost, and then lost his shadow cabinet seat too; nonetheless within months he still managed to box the leadership into the Conference compromise despite the best efforts of Momentum How was it against what momentum wanted? Like, I think that there is a danger in continually underestimating your opponents, but I think this looks more like the kind of compromise that most people in the party were happy with. I mean, I think this once again plays into one of your own pathologies Ronya, in that you can't imagine people actually deciding on things, it all has to be manipulative to some degree more than normal social interaction. I can understand it, it posits that the world has a rudder and that folks are arguing over the steering as opposed to how the world actually is. Alongside that if Watson is trying to do that, what is there we can do as members to make him stop and/or what is there we could do as none Labour members.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:45
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Watson's a shite. His parallel system would have been in clear breach of GDPR, given he asked for complaints to be CCed to his personal email address. I forget who it was, but someone in here made me stop and think about the whole  GIVE US ANOTHER VOTE thing and the dangers of tearing up the result, regardless of the winning campaign's antics.Labour nor the DUP will back anything that breaks the GFA. May is a moron that won't compromise on anything that would mean anything like a customs union. Even if she did, the Tories would implode. IMO Labour are right to play the long game on this because it's most likely going to end up with a GE or failing that a motion to go back to the ref, as I understand the current party policy. Additionally, expecting Labour to alienate all their Leave voters is utter loving suicide for the Labour GE win we all want. I also don't get the point of wanting anything regarding this on the MEP manifesto as there's piss all they can do about UK policy. It's sabre rattling by Watson and the other Labour In Badge Only centrists. I also think it'd be incredibly patronising from a Labour perspective to suddenly try and argue that all the Labour voters that went Leave and want a GE not a Ref2 were too stupid to know what they were voting for, here have another go and try and get it right this time. Especially if a Remain gets a narrow margin, as is likely (I think anyway, I doubt very much there'd suddenly be a landslide Remain on a second go) then we're looking at further bollocks and some kind of "best of three" circus. Not to mention, the ref was advisory, the binding part was carried out in Parliament where a heavy majority voted to go along with the first referendum, which as I understand it, muddies the legal waters around any tampering completely, as it's not the same as the Swiss one where they're binding after a supermajority, thus making tampering something that absolutely must mean it gets done again. Pushing to stay cosy to NeoLib EU just isn't something Corbyn is likely to do (or would ever do); as an institution it's completely opposite to the Labour party we want to see in power. A shift back to the centre on that front is just bringing back Blairite Labour and gently caress that noise. Additionally the Labour Party democratically voted on this poo poo, more than once, not only for Corbyn's leadership but on the current Labour stance regarding Brexit. The CLPs are furious with Watson at the moment, as he was voted in good faith as deputy leader and an olive branch to the centrists in the party. Someone that said he'd back the party leader to get those votes and all he's done since is act like a TIG agent. Labour can't be seen to be loving off their Leave base without being able to point to May/the Tories and say "look, these fuckers have given us no choice and want to bring back The Troubles, which I cannot abide, therefore I want YOUR opinion on the deal we now know we can get, vs staying in". NinpoEspiritoSanto fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 20:57
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Jeremy Corbyn is going to be SLAMMED in the Times tomorrow for writing a foreword to a hundred year old book in 2011 Surely this is the end for him.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:02
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Yeah you gotta write the foreword to the bible, then you're on form. What book's corbyn writing the foreword to?
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Apr 30, 2019 21:03
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah you gotta write the foreword to the bible, then you're on form. It was on my timeline but I can't find it now. Some book about imperialism. https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/lead-tom-watson-criticised-taking-money-change-uk-funder Watson found to be taking money from a TIG funder. e: Found it. https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1123306332885540864 It's got to be one of the most strained attempts at calling him an anti-semite yet. https://twitter.com/evertonfc2/status/1123276958425653248 NinpoEspiritoSanto fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 21:07
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how many times did Watson poo poo his pants today?
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Apr 30, 2019 21:07
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah you gotta write the foreword to the bible, then you're on form. wrote, back in 2011 Imperialism by John Atkinson Hobson which is (you guessed it) rather anti-semitic in apportioning blame
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Apr 30, 2019 21:11
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lol a day before local elections and the worst the right-wing press can come up with is something he wrote publicly 8 years ago oh no!! oh noooo!!!
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Apr 30, 2019 21:13
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Josef bugman posted:Alongside that if Watson is trying to do that, what is there we can do as members to make him stop and/or what is there we could do as none Labour members. winning tactic is to stuff the agenda with non-brexit topics that are popular amongst the pro-Corbyn members - just keep it off the agenda. "Actually let's talk about tuition fees and cooperatives and trains now" until something sticks if it really can't be helped, fudge motions and postpone votes in that respect Watson's opponents have already done about as well as they can. These attacks would have no teeth if they had no hope of peeling off people who are ordinarily Corbyn loyalists, since loyalists hold the majority of seats. The goal is never to completely silence dissent but to render it ineffective at actualising dissension. The core problem is that many Corbyn supporters are soft on Brexit, so the price of keeping them quiet is high and that just has to be managed
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Apr 30, 2019 21:15
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from the other side of the Times’ paywall funny that this has taken so long for anyone to bring up. at this point will anyone take notice? surely everyone who’d care has positioned themselves in either camp and won’t be shifting Corbyn’s praise for deeply antisemitic book Daniel FinkelsteinApril 30 2019, 5:00pm, DANIEL FINKELSTEIN | COMMENT What the Labour leader describes as a ‘great tome’ peddles the stereotype of Jewish financiers creating imperialism In July of 1899, the editor of the Manchester Guardian asked the radical writer John Atkinson Hobson if he would go to South Africa to report on the trouble between the British and the Boers. The reports that Hobson sent back were collected in a book published in 1900 entitled The War in South Africa: Its Causes and Effects. Two years later, drawing on his experiences, he published Imperialism: A Study. The latter book became very influential in left-wing circles, having a profound impact on Lenin, who drew heavily on it for his Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. In 2011 Spokesman Books decided that Hobson’s Imperialism should be more widely available and published a new edition with a foreword by Jeremy Corbyn. Anyone puzzled that Mr Corbyn has chosen to boycott the state dinner with Donald Trump while being content to dine with even ropier individuals will find looking at the new edition to be time well spent. It provides an articulate account of the future Labour leader’s thinking about Britain and its allies. Hobson’s theory of imperialism was that it was the policy of the great European finance houses, which found themselves with excess capital due to insufficient home demand. Seeking new markets, they invested abroad and required military support to protect their investment. They succeeded through ownership of the press and manipulation of public opinion in controlling the policy of the great states and pulling countries into imperial adventures that would have been much better avoided. Mr Corbyn regards this theory as on the money, although he is puzzled that Hobson wasn’t more revolutionary. He argues that the author has prefigured modern conflicts and contemporary imperialism. The war on terror, for example, “had as much to do with economic interests as any notion of ‘security’ ”. Since the Second World War, the Labour leader argues, “the big imperial force has been the United States on behalf of global capitalism and the biggest, mostly US-based corporations”. This has been supported by propaganda about “freedom”. This propaganda effort was designed to “accompany the military re-occupation [of Europe] under the guise of Nato. Thus the Cold War was followed by American media and cultural values, in an attempt to create an empire of the mind.” He contrasts this attempt to subjugate people through the “malign influence of the CIA” and pliant governments with the influence of the Soviet Union. “The Soviet influence was always different and its allies often acted quite independently,” writes Mr Corbyn. Partly because of this, there has been the rise of a Bolivaran alliance, inspired by Cuba and led by the “popular socialist movements of Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela”. These represent a serious challenge to American hegemony because of the shortcomings of capitalism. “The free market model cannot sustain or succeed; the more collectivist approach of the Non-Aligned Movement, and assertion of the needs of the poorer countries of the world, does provide hope.” The foreword to what Mr Corbyn calls Hobson’s “great tome” is, therefore, bracing. If Mr Corbyn was prime minister he would alter fundamentally our alliances and international outlook. He sees the US as an imperialist aggressor, Nato as an occupying force and Venezuela as the main source of hope. But the foreword is troubling as well as bracing. Because John Atkinson Hobson was an outspoken antisemite and Mr Corbyn has showered praise on a deeply antisemitic book. In The War in South Africa, Hobson is clear. The war was being fought to support Jewish interests. Hobson blames “a small group of international financiers, chiefly German in origin and Jewish in race . . . The rich and powerful liquor trade . . . is entirely in the hands of Jews . . . the stock exchange is needless to say, mostly Jewish . . . the press of Johannesburg is chiefly their property . . . we are fighting in order to place a small international oligarchy of mine owners and speculators in power at Pretoria.” His biographer John Allett concludes that for Hobson: “The conspirators, then, were the Rand Jews.” This idea carries over into Imperialism. In his foreword Mr Corbyn says of the book that “what is brilliant, and very controversial at the time, is his [Hobson’s] analysis of the pressures that were hard at work in pushing for a vast national effort, in grabbing new outposts of Empire on distant islands and shores”. Yet central to Hobson’s analysis of the “pressures that were hard at work” were the finance houses controlled by Jews. “These great businesses — banking, booking, bill discounting, loan floating, company promoting — form the central ganglion of international capitalism,” writes Hobson in Imperialism, not too many pages on from Mr Corbyn’s foreword. “United by the strongest bonds of organisation, always in closest and quickest touch with one as other, situated in the very heart of the business capital of every state, controlled, so far as Europe is concerned, by men of a single and peculiar race, who have behind them many centuries of financial experience, they are in a unique position to control the policy of nations.” Hobson follows this up with: “Does anyone seriously suppose that a great war could be undertaken by any European state, or a great state loan subscribed, if the house of Rothschild and its connections set their face against it?” Mr Corbyn writes that “Hobson’s railing against the commercial interests that fuel the role of the popular press with tales of imperial might, that then lead on to racist caricatures of African and Asian peoples, was both correct and prescient”. This is arresting given that Hobson’s railing forms part of the Rothschild and “single and peculiar race” part of the book. Having established that the finance houses (“this little group of financial kings”) are controlled by the Jews, Hobson goes on to say that “there is not a war, a revolution, an anarchist assassination, or any other public shock, which is not gainful to these men; they are harpies who suck their gains from every new forced expenditure and every sudden disturbance of public credit”. Then, Hobson continues, “the direct influence exercised by great financial houses in ‘high politics’ is supported by the control which they exercise over the body of public opinion through the press”. In other words Mr Corbyn is praising as “correct and prescient” a directly antisemitic analysis. Did Mr Corbyn not read the book before he praised it? Did he read it, but as with the Mear One mural, not notice that it was antisemitic? Did he realise it but decide it didn’t matter because there were other more important things about it? One thing, though, is clear. The problem of left-wing antisemitism isn’t really about Israel. It’s much more deeply embedded than that.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:16
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forget the Euro elections, we need a sweepstake on how many "not too many pages on" actually is
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Apr 30, 2019 21:22
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Shocked that the 19th century European was antisemitic. I have 19th century poetry books that have nothing to do with race or religion that are casually antisemitic. It's bad, but it's what it is, and needs reading in context. Same as most of them are a bit bad on women and LGBT people. In fact here's a list of great 19th century authors who weren't casually antisemitic:
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Apr 30, 2019 21:27
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Mainländer sounds really nice. Anyone got any of his stuff available?
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Apr 30, 2019 21:44
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Cerv posted:from the other side of the Times’ paywall 99% of newspaper readers are going to get as far as 'In July of 1899' and nope the gently caress out. The 1% that are left might get to the stuff about Bolivia, the Boers, and Imperialism before losing interest. This is going to convince nobody, it's just an opportunity to hit the themes of antisemitism, NATO, and Venezuela again. Nobody really reads beyond the headline, it's all just firing up the base at this point. https://twitter.com/EdRooksby/status/1123312121561751552 jabby fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 21:47
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Guavanaut posted:Shocked that the 19th century European was antisemitic. I have 19th century poetry books that have nothing to do with race or religion that are casually antisemitic. It's bad, but it's what it is, and needs reading in context. Same as most of them are a bit bad on women and LGBT people. That's what I thought... Stuff like The adventures of Tom Sawyer is racist as gently caress but it is what it is. A great story from the time.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:59
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Heart of Darkness too, great story, anti-imperialist in message, but throws around a lot of epithets and very dated descriptions. Because of being written in 1899.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:03
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Corbyn must resign finally righting the wrong of so many before him.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:09
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ronya posted:in that respect Watson's opponents have already done about as well as they can. These attacks would have no teeth if they had no hope of peeling off people who are ordinarily Corbyn loyalists, since loyalists hold the majority of seats. The goal is never to completely silence dissent but to render it ineffective at actualising dissension. The core problem is that many Corbyn supporters are soft on Brexit, so the price of keeping them quiet is high and that just has to be managed Okay, Ronya I don't like being rude to folks so I am going to phrase this politely. I don't think you understand how human beings work and, ultimately, that renders every bit of advice you offer the exact same as if you had dry heaved directly into someone's mouth. These things may well be true, but give no-one a means to affect change. Can you think of other things that are possible? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 22:09
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I must have misunderstood the NEC's decision, I thought they were backing a confirmatory referendum. Why are FBPEs going nuts?
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Apr 30, 2019 22:18
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Josef bugman posted:Okay, Ronya I don't like being rude to folks so I am going to phrase this politely. and here was me thinking ronya was completely incapable of being understood by a normal human being
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Apr 30, 2019 22:20
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I must have misunderstood the NEC's decision, I thought they were backing a confirmatory referendum. Why are FBPEs going nuts? Because they desperately want an excuse to not vote Labour and the Guardian has reported it so -pblplpblpblpblpb- I have no loving clue is the simple answer. Julio Cruz posted:and here was me thinking ronya was completely incapable of being understood by a normal human being I don't like being this cross but when someone asks you a direct question and you immediately side step it to talk about what you want to talk about, it is very cross making.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:24
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Josef bugman posted:I don't think you understand how human beings work and, ultimately, that renders every bit of advice you offer the exact same as if you had dry heaved directly into someone's mouth. Rip ronya, dead from brutal K.O.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:25
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Nonsense posted:Corbyn must resign finally righting the wrong of so many before him. He is indeed JC, and must be sacrificed to redeem all of us of our inveterate anti-semitism. Also, JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Rip ronya, dead from brutal K.O.  Brutal indeed
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Apr 30, 2019 22:30
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good lord bugman that's brutal lmao, i'm so proud
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Apr 30, 2019 22:33
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Rip ronya, dead from brutal K.O. he's absolutely donya dead and gonya
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Apr 30, 2019 22:34
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jabby posted:99% of newspaper readers are going to get as far as 'In July of 1899' and nope the gently caress out. The 1% that are left might get to the stuff about Bolivia, the Boers, and Imperialism before losing interest. Yeah all this poo poo is the same as "BUT THE LEAVE CAMPAIGN BROKE THE LAW!!!!!!!" stuff in that yes, "new" stuff keeps coming out, but nobody gives a poo poo except a small group of mentalists losing their loving minds.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:37
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Josef bugman posted:Okay, Ronya I don't like being rude to folks so I am going to phrase this politely. hello mods i'd like to report a murder
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Apr 30, 2019 22:38
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I'm very sorry Ronya. I am just somewhat cross. When it comes to analysing certain situations I think you do very well but in certain instances, especially when it comes to being able to explain the situation in a way that makes people feel they can help it seems as if you go back to talking in wider terms. I am sorry, and I will delete if you feel I have gone too far. Sorry again.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:38
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Josef bugman posted:I'm very sorry Ronya. I am just somewhat cross. When it comes to analysing certain situations I think you do very well but in certain instances, especially when it comes to being able to explain the situation in a way that makes people feel they can help it seems as if you go back to talking in wider terms. don't you delete a word of it. it's perfect and beautiful in its condemnation of everything that is wrong with the PPE oxbridge political class
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Apr 30, 2019 22:40
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Josef bugman posted:I'm very sorry Ronya. I am just somewhat cross. When it comes to analysing certain situations I think you do very well but in certain instances, especially when it comes to being able to explain the situation in a way that makes people feel they can help it seems as if you go back to talking in wider terms. nah it was a good post man, you don't have anything to apologize for. you expressed yourself extremely eloquently - sometimes when we post we have to dunk. and you did great!
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Apr 30, 2019 22:40
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