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Just what are these games? Gihren’s Greed is a series of strategy/simulation RPGs that take place in the Gundam universe, specifically the Universal Century timeline. If that doesn’t mean anything to you, that’s OK. Even though knowledge of Gundam will severely enhance your experience, I like to think of it like Advance Wars on a grand scale. Overall, the games see you play through some of the major conflicts in the Gundam universe from your chosen perspective. In practice, you get to make major political/strategic decisions that completely change how the conflicts ‘historically’ played out and as a consequence you get to make a bunch of robots beat the hell out of each other. As games, they’re underappreciated masterpieces/niche games in a niche genre. For roughly $5-10, you can buy the first game for the Saturn and get a strategy RPG that punches way above weight for what people normally buy on the console (Dragon Force, Shining Force III, etc.). I wouldn’t say it’s equivalent to those in terms of overall quality, but I will say that it’s a solid price/enjoyment competitor. Where they don’t punch above weight is language/story - sadly, they are all Japanese-only. If you know Gundam really well, this doesn’t matter because you can fill in the blanks. If you understand Japanese, obviously you can play and enjoy the story without being a fan. If you’re not a Gundam fan or well-versed in Japanese, you’re poo poo out of luck - there are a few guides circulating around the internet, but few of them are really ‘complete’. While there are a lot of menus in the games that can appear very difficult to understand, a little trial and error (as well as some basic translations provided by most guides) can get you through them pretty easily. Once you know what something does, you'll generally remember how it works since icons/menus are very consistent in terms of where they appear throughout all of the games. So what are the games, and what systems can I play them on? There are a total of five games that span multiple - OK, really just two - console generations. From their start on the Saturn to going out with a bang on the PSP, they are now definitively in the retrogame category (and possibly abandonware at this point, given the lack of remasters on the Vita/PS4). I would advise getting the originals if you can because they’re dirt cheap (again, the Saturn version can be had for $5-10 and the three PSP games can be had for about $25 each), but  and emulation are probably pretty acceptable at this point. Regardless, the PSP is the best system to play these on due to having the largest number of these games (3 of 5), being eminently hackable, and being quite portable (which is an incredibly good feature in general). Mobile Suit Gundam: Gihren’s Greed - Saturn, 1998 The initial game that started the series, it came out pretty close to the end of the Saturn’s life in Japan. The game focuses entirely on the One Year War with you choosing to play as one of two sides - The Principality of Zeon (as the eponymous Gihren Zabi) and the Earth Federation (as General Revil). The Saturn version lays out the foundation that every Gihren’s Greed game follows - hex-based warfare with stacks of units and event trees that allow you to alter the ‘history’ of the war. Changing history is not something to be taken lightly, though. For example, if you piss off Char Aznable (one of Zeon’s ace pilots and the son-in-hiding of a politician that your character, Gihren, assassinated) enough he may decide to reveal his true identity just as you’re about to defeat the Federation, start his own Zeon faction, take some of your best pilots with him, and sit within spitting distance of your capital with highly technologically-advanced forces. Another example is a reference to the thread title - if you've researched the Dom (an advanced ground-warfare mobile suit) by the time Dozle Zabi wants to send Ramba Ral after the White Base for revenge, you can resupply Ral with some Doms after his first failed sortie and he will succeed in shooting down White Base and destroying the Gundam on his second sortie (which is a huge deviation from canon that affects pretty much the rest of the game). There are some terms that are translated into English for this game, but since this predates the original Mobile Suit Gundam’s ‘official’ translation, the terms are quite weird. The Principality of Zeon is referred to as “Zion Dukedom” and the Earth Federation as “United Nations”, just to name a few. There’s also an append disc for this game that requires you to have a pre-existing save in order for it to work. I’m not 100% certain as to what it does because I haven’t used it yet, but I’ll let the thread know once I do figure it out.  Gihren’s Greed: Blood of Zeon - PlayStation/Dreamcast, 2000 + PSP, 2005 The second game in the series, like many sequels, refines and expands upon the premise of the first game. While you initially start playing the One Year War as Zeon or the Federation, the game does not end when you conclude the One Year War. Your success (or failure) becomes the launching off point for the next conflict - Operation: Stardust - and from there you finally move into the Gryps War period with the AEUG and Titans. In terms of what it adds - other than adding a whole other generation of UC story and suits (plus some additional weird-rear end OYW suits like the Gasshia), Blood of Zeon also adds foreign relations to the game. I haven’t played around with it too much yet - it’s fiddly as hell and complex - but basically if you build relations by giving each of the factions money/supplies, you can call on favors from them later on. During the OYW, I built relations with Side 6 and they were happy to give me a bunch of money when I asked, but I also built relations with the enemy arms industry and I could ask them for technical plans for their suits. Apparently during the Gryps War, you can also use this system to call for a ceasefire with one of the other major powers so that you can concentrate on fighting the other one. As for what it simplifies - it simplifies the number of phases in a turn as well as the world map. I’ll go into some more changes in later posts, but this one is generally an overall decent change (and one kept by pretty much every game here on out).  Gihren's Greed: War for Zeon Independence - PlayStation 2, 2002/2003 This is one that I don’t have. Still, like Blood of Zeon, this one further refines and adds to the gameplay. One major change is moving the battle animations from 2D sprites to 3D models. Another is that it’s a bit of a step back and omits the Gryps War, focusing entirely on the OYW. I guess one thing it adds is IF mode, where depending on who or what you beat the game with you can go back and use them to create your own faction in the game with its own ace pilots, technology, etc. Edit: I now own this game so I can finally account for changes between this, Blood of Zeon, and Menace of Axis. Joy!  Gihren’s Greed: Menace of Axis - PSP, 2008 (Menace of Axis V - PSP, 2011) I’d consider this a good starting point for the series. It’s easy to mod a PSP and find :files: somewhere to play it, and it has the most scenarios, longest campaign timeline (almost every scenario generally wraps up with Char’s Counterattack), MS, and general quality of life improvements. In terms of QoL improvements - there are a ton of difficulty settings unlocked from the beginning! Ranging from Very Easy to Very Hard with two weird modifiers thrown in for fun, you can finally make the game as hard (or as easy) as you like without the default being just generally difficult. Unlike Blood of Zeon, you don’t need to start playing from the OYW period. At the start, you have the ability to play as both Revil’s Federation and Gihren’s Zeon from the OYW (standard for the series), but you can also start as Jamitov’s Titans, Blex’s AEUG, and Haman’s Axis to play out the Gryps War/First Neo Zeon War. It’s important to specify just whose faction they are, though. Over the course of beating the game as these factions, you’ll unlock variations to play as like Scirocco’s Titans, Glemy’s Axis, and ‘Quattro’s’ AEUG. Beat the game enough and you’ll unlock the most infamous sub-faction of them all - Tem Ray. Finally, you too can play as Amuro’s hypoxia-addled father - a first in the Gundam series! - and despite being insane, he has insane access to technology like every single MS in the game. It also removes the fiddly foreign relations aspect of Blood of Zeon, instead opting for a simple ‘Law/Chaos’ scale. Basically, it models whether or not you are doing good/bad things and will change some events accordingly. Some bad things you can do include raiding your citizens for money/supplies, turning people into cyber-newtypes (also newtype research in general), using nuclear weapons, etc. Good things you can do include… the absence of doing bad things? Seriously, you gain law points every turn by simply not doing bad things. A few factions have events that cause you to gain law points (a perfect example is giving into Bask’s ransom demands during the Gryps War, because you won’t stoop to his level), but some don’t have any at all (Haman’s Axis being a notable one, especially because the path to the best ending requires you to do bad things/lose law points). Some pilots will join/leave depending on your law/chaos level as well. Generally speaking, it’s best to stay good - you’ll periodically get cash/supply infusions without needing to be a jerk, law pilots tend to be much better than chaos pilots, and you’ll get free technology increases to boot. Finally, Menace of Axis probably has the best - or at the very least, up-to-date - documentation and translation support when it comes to grokking the moonrunes/understanding what’s happening. There is a wiki available that will help you understand the event trees, and this thread also provides a good overview of the factions/gameplay.  Shin Gihren’s Greed (New Gihren’s Greed) - PSP, 2011? I know a bit more about this game than I used to! The ‘New’ in the title is both appropriate and somewhat of a misnomer, though: while a lot of systems are revamped/overhauled, even down to the basic stack/unit sizes, Shin Gihren's Greed is actually a remake of the original Gihren's Greed from the strategic perspective. Shin Gihren’s Greed also includes stuff from Unicorn, so it technically takes the UC timeline farther than any previous game without going into the Crossbone/League Militaire eras (technically Menace of Axis has Hathaway’s Flash units, but there’s absolutely no other content related to Hathaway’s Flash other than the basic grunt MS and the Penelope/Xi Gundam). It appears that there’s a very well-developed Char’s Counterattack scenario for Char as well. However, there simply aren’t as many scenarios as there are in Menace of Axis V. There are really only two major time periods for scenarios - the OYW and Char’s Counterattack. Unlike Menace of Axis V, there are no scenarios for the Zeta/ZZ Gundam periods. They intended to rectify this with post-launch DLC, but that was dependent on overall games sales which, well... Apparently, Shin Gihren's sold so poorly that it killed the series. Additonally, they made a big marketing push for it - I think they even had special PSP shells manufactured and everything. Finally, the poor sales probably scarred someone on the dev team enough that they refuse to acknowledge that Gihren's Greed exists in one of the newer Gundam games, Gundam Battle Operation 2. What's interesting about Shin's is that in addition to the standard grand strategy mode we're all familiar with at this point, there are also modes for much smaller-scale play where you're Amuro Ray in control of Londo Bell, or you're Tem Ray in charge of the Federation's MS research and (later) the 13th Autonomous Corps (or something resembling that), or you're Banagher in the Unicorn (even so!). To be honest, the game feels much more designed around this, especially once I mention some of the major changes they made to some of the underlying systems. Anyways, although they went back to the strategic movement and scale of the first Gihren's Greed games, both pilots and MS have been completely reworked. Pilots now have special attributes like "Newtype" and "Black Tri-Stars" that affect their stats, much like you might find in a Super Robot Wars game, and depending on their stat levels they can actually attack enemies in different ways. Ace pilots that are good at melee combat can spend Morale to skip the shooting phase and go straight to melee combat, something that makes melee specialist suits extremely dangerous rather than kind of a joke when they get merked during the shooting phase. Likewise, pilots that are good at shooting can spend Morale to increase the number of shots fired during the shooting phase for them and (if their leadership is high enough) every other unit in the squad. Speaking of which - squads are reworked. Instead of grunt units being a group of three units with one health bar, everything is now a single unit with its own health bar and the stack has been increased from 3 to 6. This... has a lot of impacts on how everything kind of hangs together and while it's really good for Aces and the smaller-scale scenarios that they added, it can make the grand campaign decidedly more sloggy than ever. Edit: I know a little more about Shin Gihren's Greed now! LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Dec 4, 2023 |
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May 3, 2019 17:48
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Major links: https://pastebin.com/3fLsrSit - This is a link to the Pastebin for the Menace of Axis V translation that someone has been working on. Where you go from there is up to you! https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/lets-play-gihrens-greed-threat-of-axis-v.332674/ - I linked this earlier in the main description for Menace of Axis V, but I was a bit subtle about it. Let me be more overt, then - this is a Let's Play on another site that does a pretty good job introducing you to a lot of the basics and even some of the nuances of Menace of Axis V. Edit: Posted links to the translation and to an LP on another forum. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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May 3, 2019 17:49
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Liked and subscribed. I have a copy of Shin but haven’t played it yet.
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May 3, 2019 18:48
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LuiCypher posted:Unlike Menace of Axis V, there are no scenarios for the Zeta/ZZ Gundam periods. They intended to rectify this with post-launch DLC, but that was dependent on overall games sales which, well... Wait, really? gently caress, I own Shin but never got into it since I didn't know how to play it and the lack of Z/ZZ periods didn't make me want to try with Zeon Independence and Menace of Axis V right there instead. If they had those settings, oh boy would that have changed. I lost my copy of Zeon Independence a long time ago and never got around to playing it enough to try IF mode, and whatever memories of the strategic layer was overwritten by Menace.
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May 3, 2019 19:32
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Midjack posted:Liked and subscribed. I have a copy of Shin but haven’t played it yet. Airspace posted:gently caress, I own Shin but never got into it since I didn't know how to play it and the lack of Z/ZZ periods didn't make me want to try with Zeon Independence and Menace of Axis V right there instead. If they had those settings, oh boy would that have changed. Everything I know about Shin comes from this intrepid GameFAQs writer, who as far as I'm concerned is a goddamn hero for both creating a guide and updating it as recently as two days ago (May 1st). Now that I've read some more about it, I figure it might be interesting to pick up at some point. You can tell that they really tried to swing for the fences since they even updated the models/animations from previous games (even in Menace of Axis V, I can tell that some of the sprites have origins from way back in the Saturn days) but I guess they kind of fell flat? It's a shame that they're still producing Nobunaga's Ambition games (albeit it's a different developer) but we won't see any more Gihren's Greed games, especially now that SRPGs aren't what publishers are focusing on. It's something that I'd love to see SEGA try to bring back by working with Bandai Namco, though.
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May 3, 2019 19:52
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Neat, I'll read that guide and maybe give Shin another shot.
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May 3, 2019 20:12
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Airspace posted:Neat, I'll read that guide and maybe give Shin another shot. Word of warning though - English is definitely not their first language, but it's leagues better than anything a Google Auto-translate will provide.
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May 3, 2019 20:35
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LuiCypher posted:Word of warning though - English is definitely not their first language, but it's leagues better than anything a Google Auto-translate will provide. Yeah, I briefly looked through it and it reads pretty well, so problem on that front.
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May 3, 2019 20:53
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Oh thank god there's a thread for these, just heard of them the other day and was super curious to take a look.
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May 3, 2019 20:57
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There are some surprisingly helpful notes on Gamefaqs for these games too. Shin Gihren's Greed menu explanations: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/635387-kidou-senshi-gundam-shin-gihren-no-yabou/76189210 Threat of Axis menus: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/psp/943445-kidou-senshi-gundam-ghiren-no-yabou-axis-no-kyoui/faqs/55231 Threat of Axis V units: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/psp/955150-kidou-senshi-gundam-ghiren-no-yabou-axis-no-kyoui-v/faqs/74572 There are useful threads on the boards but it's going to be an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff.
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May 5, 2019 22:29
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How come no one ever attempted to translate these games? They did it for an obscure Kojima game (Policenauts) why not something from a known franchise like Gundam? I think my favourite thing about Girhens Greed is how they model cutscenes and fluff texts with all sorts of alternate reality stuff happening as a result of your actions. Like if you play general revil you can survive into Zeta. Though i have no idea how titans and everything fit in after a total law victory in the OYW.
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May 5, 2019 22:40
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Kraftwerk posted:How come no one ever attempted to translate these games? They’re super niche, even more so than Super Robot Wars. The intersection between Gundam fans and people who would play a hardcore empire management strategy game on a video console is vanishingly small. The last game only sold something like 140k units and Threat of Axis V didn’t do much better.
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May 5, 2019 22:47
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Kraftwerk posted:How come no one ever attempted to translate these games? More than anything it comes down to how much text is in these games, much like how only a handful of SRW or SD Gundam games have fan translations and most of the ones that do are from the early days of the franchise where things are simpler
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May 5, 2019 23:15
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Kraftwerk posted:How come no one ever attempted to translate these games? I think Policenauts really benefits from having Kojima's name on it - there are enough people with quality Japanese skills, the ability to hack into game script files, and who are really enthusiastic about his work to generate some high-quality translations. Gihren's Greed games don't really have an auteur designer behind them, and as other posters have mentioned, these games have a really niche fanbase. Getting that perfect trifecta of 'good Japanese/technical skills/enthusiasm' is really hard when you have a very small audience. If you do get a translation, it's going to wind up being pretty spotty. Which, again, is a shame because these are actually good Gundam games. Bandai-Namco have plunked significant time/development costs on lesser games, so I'm grateful that we at least have five of these. With regards to translation - speaking for myself, my Japanese is middling at best and I have no script-hacking/patching skills, although I have the requisite enthusiasm. The best translation I could develop for anyone would maybe get the gist (but not the precise meaning) of what people are saying/what systems do, and it would require a significant amount of free time that I simply can't afford to spare. An accurate translation out of me is going to take even more time from me and other people's time as well (since I would have someone check my translations). Although I will say that I am a fair hand at katakana and MS names. That much has been pretty easy for me, and I know I've been taking it for granted as I parse through development menus. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 17:29 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 16:07
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I got really into Threat of Axis V a few years back and I have to say that the AEUG campaign is really not good or fun. There's so much of an early-game handicap where you have basically no pilots or MS options and it sucks.
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May 8, 2019 18:07
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So far I've played through the following: Blood of Zeon - Federation OYW campaign Menace of Axis V - Haman's Axis campaign And I am currently in the middle of: Gihren's Greed (Saturn) - Zeon campaign Menace of Axis V - AEUG campaign Later, I'll restart/try the following: Menace of Axis V - Titans campaign Menace of Axis V - Zeon campaign Eventually, I'll unlock Tem Ray and let y'all know how crazy that is.
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May 8, 2019 19:08
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LuiCypher posted:So far I've played through the following: Tem Ray's Army whips rear end real hard. Early game kind of blows but you have access to every single unit and there's no beating that, and late-game you can just crush everyone with a newtype hell-squad of Scirocco, Amuro, and Kamille in Xi Gundams backed up by all kinds of wild poo poo.
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May 9, 2019 06:24
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I remember seeing this in the Gundam thread recently, but what other Gundam settings do you think would make for decent GG-style games? I think SEED is the obvious answer, but I'd also chime in and say that the Gundam series written by an actual game developer - Gundam AGE - would make a solid entry. You have three different generations of MS designs/conflicts and a few possible 'What if?' scenarios (i.e., the Federation not disowning certain characters, the Vagans gaining access to the AGE device earlier/the AGE device gaining access to EXA-DB, Yurin not getting killed in the Girlfriend Coffin, Zeheart not being a total moron, etc.). Unfortunately, they're all paired with the show that Gundam fans care the least about and likely wouldn't achieve any meaningful sales for that reason. Which is sad - I would've loved to see the Legilis appear in more media. Plus, the story might've had some potential in an interactive medium like a video game.
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May 22, 2019 19:57
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It's not Gundam but it is Sunrise, I think Code Geass had potential as a strategy game. Sadly the games they did make were more basic RPGs, from what I know.
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May 22, 2019 20:07
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So I'm writing up a basic strategy guide that's a little simpler/more intelligible for people just getting into this - what are your unit/formation recommendations? Generally speaking, some of my tips are:
I'm also coming close to finishing a brief guide to each side based on my experiences, and I've got to say - Haman Karn is legitimately terrifying. Char is usually the gold standard most players use when talking about the best ace pilot in the game, but I really think it's Haman. She's always a faction leader by default (Char is only the leader when he's leading his Neo Zeon) so she has a massive influence radius, but trades some Charisma for being the deadliest goddamn pilot in the game. I think the game considers her one of the few Level 5 Newtypes (the most powerful), which is a status only shared by Amuro, Lalah, Kamille, and Quess. Compared to those four her statistics as a leader are way, way better, so not only is she a goddamn terror in her Qubeley everyone else around her is just that much stronger.
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Jun 6, 2019 19:18
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Here's a few tips as well for anyone that would like to play these games since they're pretty fun. *I'd suggest to always have a couple stacks of long range units when attacking, being able to enemies without risk of a counter-attack is always helpful. *If you're playing Zeon, investing in units like the Zaku-II J and the Gouf-B variant will allow you to use Dodai support craft for moving around which will make some areas like mountains a lot less horrible to traverse and also make your attacks much better against flying targets. (Just don't stay on the Dodai if there's a couple of stacks of Sabrefish nearby, you'll probably lose a few units to them.) *If you're doing a Federation campaign, just be aware that you'll be fighting mobile suits in tanks for the first ten or so turns until you unlock cheap, powerful units like GM's, so you'll lose a LOT of units. *Be sure to swarm your enemy stacks with overwhelming odds to make sure they don't get a second turn to blow up more of your guys and use flying bombers like Depp Rogs to deal massive damage without getting shot back. (unless they've got Zaku Cannons or Zaku-II J types with Magella cannons which can hit you back.) *Federation MS will usually have a shield so they'll be far more survivable than most of the Zeon roster which is great when you play as the Feddies but might be a pain when you are Zeon since that shield damage reduction is killer at times. *It might be a good idea to invest in cheap throw-away units just to make a screen to protect your vulnerable units like artillery or bombers from the enemies with low attack range like normal Zaku's. *You can turn your material resources into money for research if you have a lot of materials but if you do this just be aware that you can't do this very often since the gains from doing this will lower for about ten or so turns until it goes back to full price. *Last and not least, be sure to look at the event list from the Wiki since you'll know which zones to attack first so you don't split up your forces all over the world on places you don't really need to go to yet since that'll probably end with them getting blown up. Koorisch fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 00:05
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This thread is looking pretty empty so I'll just post this here for some humor.
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Aug 5, 2019 21:57
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Saw the thread and got really excited that there had been some advance in playing these games In English
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Aug 6, 2019 11:53
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Koorisch posted:This thread is looking pretty empty so I'll just post this here for some humor. Hey, that's Saturn GG, right? If it is, something in me feels both pride and shame at being spergy enough to recognize the Saturn text when I see it. It might also be the DC version, but *shrug*. Pladdicus posted:Saw the thread and got really excited that there had been some advance in playing these games In English I'll probably post some advance in 'general faction overviews' soon, since that's been a burning item in my Google Doc history. At this point, the only big advance in playing it in English is if a major fan translation community decides to step up and translate them since they're (more or less) abandoned, or if somehow people on this forum want to get together to translate it (I am not volunteering myself, as I have no idea how to do anything related to translating video games aside from the actual translation). LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Aug 8, 2019 |
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Aug 8, 2019 16:51
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LuiCypher posted:Hey, that's Saturn GG, right? It probably wouldn't be quite as bad as the SRW games since there are fewer character to character conversations. Actually hacking the text back in may be a challenge since these games aren't as well understood as the SRW series.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:13
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LuiCypher posted:Hey, that's Saturn GG, right? It's the PSP version of Blood of Zeon. I just laugh every time I see a good ace stuck in something like a Gattle or that submarine because that means they're not going to kill a full stack by themselves.  Oh yeah, one tip if anyone ever plays Blood of Zeon, the maps can be exploited to hell and back if you bring small expendable flying units to back-cap empty zones since that version allows you to exit into zones that you don't own. Koorisch fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Aug 8, 2019 |
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Aug 8, 2019 22:33
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Koorisch posted:Oh yeah, one tip if anyone ever plays Blood of Zeon, the maps can be exploited to hell and back if you bring small expendable flying units to back-cap empty zones since that version allows you to exit into zones that you don't own. Yeah, that was a great trick to get around the A.I.'s cheating. Also if you play Threat of Axis the English event tree guide is a lifesaver. God these games were great.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:51
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Koorisch posted:It's the PSP version of Blood of Zeon. ...Which I should know because I also own that  Small, expendable flying units are really, really good in Saturn GG as Zeon. Dopps have a really high movement range that will allow them to intercept MS carriers before they get close enough to invade your major bases, and if you have 3-4 stacks of them they can even take down a Pegasus pretty handily. They're really invaluable to use when defending Hawaii, as they can take down a Pegasus over the water where it can't deploy its MS (and in Saturn GG, if you take down the carrier you take out everything inside of it to boot - the only way you can do this in later games is if there are no valid deployment hexes nearby when a carrier is destroyed).
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Aug 12, 2019 20:19
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Playing Blood of Zeon after playing Threat of Axis V feels so strange, especially when some of the units you knew that had a 1-2 range attack only have 0-1 instead like the GM Sniper Custom. Doesn't make them less dangerous though because that accuracy is killer against the High-mob units. The resource management/diplomacy screen is a bit odd but I kinda like it since you can actually get stuff from it like enemy blueprints or actual suits, just got a Johnny Ridden custom MS-06-R2 from it. 
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Aug 14, 2019 10:20
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I'm replaying Blood of Zeon too and I can't get the Zakus to mount the Dodais at base or on the battlefield. Do I just need more research?
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Aug 20, 2019 10:24
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Arbite posted:I'm replaying Blood of Zeon too and I can't get the Zakus to mount the Dodais at base or on the battlefield. Ah, that's because you can only really use Dodai with the Zaku 2-J ground type and Gouf A/B, it's a bit silly that only those types can use them. Then again, when you don't need the swarm of Dodai riders you'll probably have something better like Doms and Dom Cannons that'll deal with quite a few enemy types until you'll fight in space.
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Aug 20, 2019 11:33
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I hope that someone LP's these games because they're pretty good, it's a bit sad we over in the west never got any of these games translated.
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Aug 22, 2019 00:29
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Tobias Grant did one a few years ago but ran out of steam. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3593171
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Aug 22, 2019 00:44
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(Still BOZ) Thanks for the help with the Dodais, but now I may have boned myself by conquering Kilimanjaro too quickly. I don't think I can get Doms in time for Ral's mission. I'm at low MS Tech 5 and Garma's already talking about the mission. I guess the best thing is just to not send Ral or the Tri-Stars and face White Base at Odessa?
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Aug 22, 2019 07:53
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Arbite posted:(Still BOZ) Yeah, it might be a bit too late, you generally get Doms at MS research level 7, if you spend max funding on MS research every turn and use the "research boost" from your weapons manufacturer that appears randomly to boost it you might reach it by turn 22. (also possibly by researching the Flying Gouf as well but I'm not 100% sure about that one in BoZ) It's a bit of a pain but if you REALLY want to save Ral and the Tri-stars (which you probably want because those stats, man) you might want to hold off on the Kilimanjaro capture until you're a bit closer to the Dom. Which units are you using by the way? In the start using the Zaku II-J's is a good idea since they can use the Dodai but it's a bit of a pain that you can't use the Bazooka or the Magella Cannon on the Dodai in BoZ since they default to machineguns when they mount them which means you have to go over on a captured base hex to switch them back. If you feel you need a lot more firepower and have the spare materials and cash, you might want to invest in a few Zaku Cannons since they've got a decent amount of firepower, just don't leave them alone because they usually get shot up if you do. Afterwards getting the Gouf-B is a good idea because their shields give them way more survivability than you'd think and the fact that they can mount Dodai as well is great, then when you need some water units the Gogg (and later the Z'gok) will crush the submarines the Federation uses. Also don't underestimate the power of chaff units, having a big group of enemies attack a lovely plane or a tank in front of your line is far more preferable to having them all attack one of your ace stacks with several stacks. Koorisch fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Aug 23, 2019 |
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Aug 23, 2019 02:54
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Koorisch posted:Also don't underestimate the power of chaff units, having a big group of enemies attack a lovely plane or a tank in front of your line is far more preferable to having them all attack one of your ace stacks with several stacks. Seconding this - chaff might even be more important for Zeon than it is for the Federation (despite the Federation's early- to mid-game units being nothing but chaff). Losing an MS from a unit in a stack (let alone an ace unit) is a big resource sink that you can't really afford compared to the AI - losing too many MS (to say nothing of a whole unit or stack getting obliterated) can set you back a few turns on your research or building up your forces. On the other hand, losing some Dopps, Magella Attacks, or Zaku Tanks isn't really that big of a deal. Although Zeon get a huge advantage in actually having a melee phase in the early game, try to view it as more of a bonus until you get Gouf-Bs. Nearly all of the games are set up such that all the melee phase does is attack any remaining units at the front of the stack, so while it's really cool to see Zakus go in and chop up some Type 61s, all they usually wind up doing is killing the last tank or two in a unit (which don't have any real firepower anyways). Gouf-Bs are melee units though, and they are real good at wrecking GMs, Guncannons, Guntanks, and Big Trays. Koorisch posted:It's a bit of a pain but if you REALLY want to save Ral and the Tri-stars (which you probably want because those stats, man) you might want to hold off on the Kilimanjaro capture until you're a bit closer to the Dom. Kilimanjaro is the big event trigger in the early game. Once you take it, Operation V starts rolling with great gusto. Remember that holding off on Kilimanjaro isn't going to put a halt to Federation MS research forever though - drag your feet for too long and the Federation will start producing Ground-Type GMs and Gundams anyways, with the end result of getting them earlier than they would otherwise if they started Operation V. But holding off will give you time to research the Dom to make sure you hit the event trigger where you supply the Doms to Ral when he asks for them (which has a huge impact on Zeon - without Amuro chewing through Zeon's ranks, you retain a ton more aces than you would otherwise). LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Aug 26, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 16:05
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Another very good thing to realize is that in Blood of Zeon, you'll usually spend a lot more capital than materials since you only use material when you either A: build units (which can either be rare or common, depending on how many units you are going to build or how often you lose them.) or B: give them to your diplomatic contacts when they want it. (Which is preferable to capital, since everything else uses it and you can't really spare any.) As such, it's a very good idea to trade excess material to the first two choices (Side 6 and Von Braun, the two neutral areas.) in the diplomacy screen so you can ask them for a lot of capital, if you nearly max out the bar you can usually get between 12-15k. (They don't always ask for materials though, if they ask for capital I'd just wait a turn unless you have to get their opinion up for a big payout.) Also, it's a good idea to keep the third choice in the diplomacy screen (the Jupiter Fleet, I believe.) in a good mood since they'll give you a lot of materials each turn if they're happy. Keeping your and the enemy weapons developer in a good mood can also be amazingly useful since they can give you extra research points, espionage level (Not often that useful but can help if you get lucky.) as well as blueprints for units (which you might need a high espionage level depending on the level of unit) as well as finished units delivered to your capital base, it's a good idea to check every now and then what they can offer because they can either offer garbage units like the Fanfan or they might give you a Gundam Alex blueprint, it's a bit random. (Also if you don't know what the unit is called that you're about to get, it might be a good idea to save before so you don't buy the plans for a useless unit you'll never use/waste the points for a unit that is way too weak for the turn you are at.)
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Aug 26, 2019 19:27
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Blood of Zeon continues to surprise me in a lot of ways. Compared to Saturn GG, they really tweaked the early game for Zeon in some interesting ways. Things I've noted:
It's like you said, though - chaff units like Dopps, Dodais, Gattles, and Magella Attack tanks are really nice for soaking a round or two of attacks from enemies that won't be hitting your mobile suits. A lot of early-game Zeon units lack shields and are pretty fragile (compared to what they used to be) so you can suffer a lot of attrition/lose a lot of units that will take two or more turns to produce, so the chaff makes a nice meatshield for avoiding that until you can start fielding more Goufs/Doms.
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Sep 4, 2019 23:04
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LuiCypher posted:[*]Your Zaku-Is and C-type Zaku-IIs have deplorable movement speeds on Earth. It makes taking a lot of early maps a big slog and really eats into your MS advantage (on anything other than plains, Z1s and C-type Z2s suffer movement and to-hit penalties). You want to beeline for Dodais and J-types ASAP so you can start churning them out on Earth to make the conquest go more smoothly. Yeah, a lot of Fat Uncles will save you so many turns of walking it's not even funny. It's a bit of a pain to do but if you send in one or two Dopps into a area you can use them to either block an enemy by going for an unoccupied zone or just run around them keeping the zone busy and unable to work as a reinforcement zone, one good way to do it (if you can't really afford the attack on that area just yet) is to send in one unit every turn and try to keep that area in a permanent lockdown, it's especially good to do if there are some really nasty mobile suits like for example a Gundam or the Ground Gundams (those guys are freaking horrifying at how early they pop up and if they put in a good ace you can kiss quite a few suits goodbye unless you gang up on them.) I did it with great effect in the Federation campaign and it held back so many attacks until I was capable to take Zaku's down in the droves with MP Guntanks.
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Sep 5, 2019 00:13
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| # ? May 5, 2024 22:25 |
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Replaying Zeon in Saturn GG, Blood of Zeon, and Threat of Axis V has definitely made a lot of the changes from game to game clearer. For the most part, many of the changes are meant to make Zeon less dominant in the early game (although some alter the calculus of the early game for the better, too). For example: In Saturn GG, the path from C-Type to F-Type to J-Type Zaku IIs is just straight upgrades (albeit J-Types are ground-type). F-Types are superior stat-wise to C-Types, and J-Types are superior stat-wise to F-Types. Blood of Zeon and Threat of Axis change this somewhat. In Threat of Axis V, C-Types have:
Compare that to F-Types, which have:
(Fun fact - Char's Custom C-Type has 27 evasion, making it a classic '3x faster' Char joke) A minor change, but overall actually reduces the health of the entire stack by 30. The evasion does give them slightly more survivability (a lot more if in a heavy Minovsky area), but they're really not much of an improvement (whereas in Saturn GG, F-Type was just a straight upgrade). J-Types are still a definitive upgrade to the C-Type in land combat, though - while they have 5 less health per model, they have more evasion (11) and have a lot more secondary weapons that enable them to dish out a lot more damage (especially if in a unit with a good leader ace). Not to mention they move well across most terrain (except snow and desert), and they can attack into forests without penalty. The big nerf is actually the new sector-based strategy map with tactical maps receiving a ton of varying terrain types. This reinforces the importance of having access to transports in order to move units around efficiently for Zeon, and you likely won't get your first major transport unit (Fat Uncles) until around Turn 9 or 10. This really slows the pace of Zeon's early game as having to footslog everywhere is incredibly slow, even with J-Types. Other Zeon units receive minor nerfs, too. Doms saw a reduction in health/evasion from Saturn GG to Blood of Zeon/Threat of Axis (probably as a way to make room for additional Dom units they added to the game, but also changing the effectiveness of the Dom rush strategy. Early Federation units also receive a lot of upgrades. Generally, they have more health per unit (in Threat of Axis Type 61s actually have 15 health per model, up from 10 in Blood of Zeon), increases in attack power, or increases in range (Depp Roggs go from a 3-stack that can only attack one hex away to a single, stronger unit that can hit from further away, for example). I'd have to write an extensive FAQ and have all games running at once to do more comparisons, but it is interesting to see how their slight changes/tuning over time led to very interesting impacts on the games overall. Koorisch posted:Yeah, a lot of Fat Uncles will save you so many turns of walking it's not even funny. This. Ground-Type Gundams are unholy terrors. The computer is actually somewhat bad at using their ability to change weapons on the fly effectively (generally, they'll start with Machine Guns/Rocket Launchers but if you move within a 3-hex range they'll almost always switch to the large cannon - and then never switch back, even when you're in their face. All they can do at Range 1 is fire their chest vulcans, which don't really do enough damage to stop a Dom bazooka barrage followed by heat rods to the face. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Sep 16, 2019 |
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Sep 16, 2019 15:35
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