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Prester Jane posted:You see how radicalized the right-wing has gotten and how much control a small fringe wields over the GOP? Their power comes from the fact that their leaders understand that their support is entirely conditional upon the base's agenda being implemented by their elected representatives. We could, (and must) do the same. If you are voting republican or helping them win election then you are the reliable conservative base. They absolutely do not care one bit if you have a website somewhere explaining your protest vote is actually a secret call to the democratic national committee somehow. If you are voting trump till they run bernie then you are just called a trump voter, no one anywhere cares about that second part.
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May 18, 2019 15:36
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Zerilan posted:That power was created by voting for their fringe right candidates in primaries while also showing up at every general election to vote against the Democrat. They have power because they have high turnout as voters, the exact opposite of what you're proposing. Those people show up because they explicit believe in what that candidate is selling.
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May 18, 2019 15:41
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Ardennes posted:Those people show up because they explicit believe in what that candidate is selling. It's this. You can't motivate people to show up and support you when you are actively and publicly undermining their interest. Why should women support the Democratic party when the DCCC is out there proving that Democratic Leadership is more than happy to sell them under the bridge as long as it furthers their own selfish agenda? And again, what is the solution to addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to take rights away from women? (Do you not understand the profound hypocrisy that such an act entails and the profound depressing effect that doing so has on the enthusiasm of the base?) The DCCC's actions clearly demonstrate that they have no actual core ideology or agenda beyond furthering their own power. People don't have to be a political aficionados like ourselves to see right through that horseshit.
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May 18, 2019 15:44
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Ardennes posted:Those people show up because they explicit believe in what that candidate is selling. Most of them don't give a gently caress about the majority of polices a candidate might support. The right have a lot more single issue voters where that issue is just "no abortions," "keep brown people out," "trigger libs." Even then, when the fringe candidate doesn't win the primary, those people still go out and vote for whoever did win.
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May 18, 2019 15:48
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Prester Jane posted:It's this. You can't motivate people to show up and support you when you are actively and publicly undermining their interest. Why should women support the Democratic party when the DCCC is out there proving that Democratic Leadership is more than happy to sell them under the bridge as long as it furthers their own selfish agenda? Okay, but how does voting republican help this at all except letting everyone mark you down as a very reliable conservative voter who happens to have some weird complex motivation for it that no one anywhere cares about?
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May 18, 2019 15:48
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay, but how does voting republican help this at all except letting everyone mark you down as a very reliable conservative voter who happens to have some weird complex motivation for it that no one anywhere cares about? How does supporting the DCCC further the cause of women's rights? Why won't Anyone answer the question of how we address the DCCC working to undermine women's rights (within the system)? How do we accomplish this goal?
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May 18, 2019 15:49
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prester jane, im beginning to think you don't have a strategy to convert "not voting" into leftist policies
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May 18, 2019 15:51
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Zerilan posted:Most of them don't give a gently caress about the majority of polices a candidate might support. The right have a lot more single issue voters where that issue is just "no abortions," "keep brown people out," "trigger libs." GOP provides plenty of “fresh meat” to keep them loyal and that is what matters.
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May 18, 2019 15:51
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Prester Jane posted:Why Won't Anyone answer the question of how we address the DCCC working to undermine women's rights within the system? How do we accomplish this goal? Because literally no matter what the answer is it's not going to be protest vote trump and no one cares about your stupid convoluted logic on how you are not a regular trump voter but a principled good one that only votes trump to put nancy pelosi in her place until she begs to have you back. protest voting is not a real thing. It hangs out with ironic nazis. If you vote republican your a republican voter. period. end of sentence. the end. Your stupid explanation about how it's "sending a message" is garbage.
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May 18, 2019 15:53
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QuoProQuid posted:prester jane, im beginning to think you don't have a strategy to convert "not voting" into leftist policies What is your strategy for converting support of the present DCCC into leftist policies? (Why am I the only one expected to provide a detailed step-by-step solution to the problem?) I'm telling you what won't work and offering an approach that (overtime) will work. What is your solution (working within the system) to correcting the problem of the DCCC actively undermining women's rights and depressing the Democratic base? If your leader does not believe that your support is conditional, then your leader has no reason whatsoever to act in your best interest. Therefore, if your leader knows that your support can be counted on no matter what it is inevitable that they will back stab you to further their own interest. The DCCC's present actions demonstrate this principle at work quite clearly.
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May 18, 2019 15:55
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Because literally no matter what the answer is it's not going to be protest vote trump and no one cares about your stupid convoluted logic on how you are not a regular trump voter but a principled good one that only votes trump to put nancy pelosi in her place until she begs to have you back. What is your solution to addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 15:56
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Prester Jane posted:What is your solution to addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women? Is the answer helping republicans win to send a message? Because the US has several states and I can't really name one that has people voting republican that has ended up with better women's rights than the ones that vote democratic. Seems like whatever else it is you are doing voting republican is not gonna be the answer.
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May 18, 2019 16:00
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I'm willing to believe protest voting is a strategy that is unlikely to succeed at getting leftist policy, but I also have to hear the strategy that is more effective at getting leftist policy. Voting for Democrats that are actively opposed to leftist policy thus entrenching their political power both within the government and political party?
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May 18, 2019 16:00
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The only remotely realistic plan is mobilizing more primary challengers from the left who lobby for women's rights issues and throwing support behind those challengers.
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May 18, 2019 16:00
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is the answer helping republicans win to send a message? Because the US has several states and I can't really name one that has people voting republican that has ended up with better women's rights than the ones that vote democratic. Seems like whatever else it is you are doing voting republican is not gonna be the answer. Why is it so hard to answer a direct question? You think my strategy is bunk. Okay. Well we both agree that the DCCC working to actively undermine women's rights as a problem, yes? Okay. So what's your solution then?
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May 18, 2019 16:01
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Prester Jane posted:You think my strategy is bunk. What IS your strategy? you won't even say if you mean you protest vote to mean you literally are a trump voter or if you "protest vote" by staying home voting day and pretending that anyone anywhere is going to distinguish you from anyone else that stays home by reading your mind remotely or something.
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May 18, 2019 16:07
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7c Nickel posted:How do you square that with the fact that the Democratic Party has been moving left for the past 20 years or so? Everything I've seen during my lifetime suggest that electoral success creates room for movement to the left. I mean right now Biden is leading the pack after we lost to the right wing. Isn't that the exact opposite of what you think should happen? The leftward movement happens in spite of the Democrats, not because of them. Just look at the places where Democrats have been most electorally successful, and where the party has become most entrenched: they're filled with centrist ghouls like Schumer and Feinstein who are well to the right of their own constituents but manage to hold on to their seats forever because vote blue no matter who. QuoProQuid posted:this pro strat is working out real well for leftists in russia, poland, hungary, and israel IDK about the other three countries, but the Israeli left would probably be a lot stronger right now if the main center-left party had acted as an actual opposition, rather than rallying behind the far right in exchange for a taste of power. All they ended up doing was helping Netanyahu consolidate his power while getting their fingerprints all over his crimes.
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May 18, 2019 16:12
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:What IS your strategy? you won't even say if you mean you protest vote to mean you literally are a trump voter or if you "protest vote" by staying home voting day and pretending that anyone anywhere is going to distinguish you from anyone else that stays home by reading your mind remotely or something. You're dodging the question again. The particulars of my (bunk) strategy have no bearing on what the particulars of your strategy are. Please answer the question: What is your solution to addressing the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 16:13
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Prester Jane posted:You're dodging the question again. The particulars of my (bunk) strategy have no bearing on what the particulars of your strategy are. The particulars of your strategy as a trump voter effect an awful lot on my strategy of "We aren't going to get leftist policy under a republican president"
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May 18, 2019 16:17
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The particulars of your strategy as a trump voter effect an awful lot on my strategy of "We aren't going to get leftist policy under a republican president" What is your strategy for addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 16:17
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im p dumb but im not sure how we moved from "dccc chair attending fundraiser for his congressional colleague (who should be primaried)" to "the entire democratic party apparatus is working to undermine the rights of women across this country." again, i can only talk from lived experience, but im fairly certain that if richard cordray had won the governorship of ohio in 2018, my state wouldn't have passed a heartbeat bill
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May 18, 2019 16:25
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QuoProQuid posted:im p dumb but im not sure how we moved from "dccc chair attending fundraiser for his congressional colleague (who should be primaried)" to "the entire democratic party apparatus is working to undermine the rights of women across this country." You're p dumb. I have addressed the specific problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women. I have repeatedly emphasized that the problem is the party leadership and not the entire party apparatus. Let me put the question to you: What is your strategy for addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 16:30
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Ardennes posted:GOP provides plenty of “fresh meat” to keep them loyal and that is what matters. Pretty much, the white people's party gives white people what they want in buckets. Meanwhile all you get with democrats are a base of nonprofits, universities, labor unions, "think tanks," and wealthy computer touchers on the internet telling you that better things aren't possible and lesser evilism is as good as it gets. This is why turnout in Chicago city elections is below 30% for ward and mayoral elections-- nobody cares.
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May 18, 2019 16:31
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Prester Jane posted:What is your strategy for addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women? Still not clear how it is that you aren't the one working to undermine the rights of women. Counteracting your "protest votes" for republicans is how one fights for the rights of women at this moment.
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May 18, 2019 16:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Still not clear how it is that you aren't the one working to undermine the rights of women. Counteracting your "protest votes" for republicans is how one fights for the rights of women at this moment. What is your strategy for addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 16:33
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Prester Jane posted:You're p dumb. I have addressed the specific problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women. I have repeatedly emphasized that the problem is the party leadership and not the entire party apparatus. i would probably participate in primaries and volunteer/donate money to groups that support pro-choice candidates in other words: QuoProQuid posted:maybe i'm misguided but the way to resolve this in my mind would be to use internal party systems like primaries and leadership elections to promote change, not to burn down the entire apparatus when its the only thing capable of acting as a brake pedal on the worst excesses of the other party
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May 18, 2019 16:35
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Unions had to deal with a rank and file revolt over Trump because their staff and leadership are 100% in the tank for democrats, even to the detriment of their own interests. Like backing the ACA 100% even though rahm emanuel's brother ezekiel hates union sponsored insurance plans and slapped the cadillac tax on them precisely to punish their generosity.
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May 18, 2019 16:35
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My apologies to the bystanders in this thread for my repeatedly asking the exact same question over and over. But it is necessary to demonstrate that anyone who is shouting "don't rock the boat!" at you has no actual strategy for addressing the problems. They just don't want their own privilege interrupted in any way, they don't have any idea how to address a systemic problem because they cannot conceptualize of a system that will not simply self correct.
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May 18, 2019 16:35
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Prester Jane posted:What is your strategy for addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women? Strange how you are responding to everything with this but you won't respond your own answer except some vague implication that you are a heroic republican voter sticking it to the true women hater democrats via protest vote.
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May 18, 2019 16:36
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QuoProQuid posted:i would probably participate in primaries and volunteer/donate money to groups that support pro-choice candidates Your strategy does not address the present leadership actively working to undermine the rights of women. It's simply hopes that if we get enough of the right people in power then over time the problem will simply go away. The history of the democratic party over the past few decades demonstrates that this is simply not the case. You have to challenge entrenched power interests directly. I'm not saying don't do the things you're suggesting- I'm simply saying that history demonstrates that doing those things it's not in and of itself sufficient to address the present crisis. In point of fact I would argue that not challenging a trench political power blocks within the Democratic Party is a direct cause of the present crisis of leadership we are experiencing. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 16:41 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 16:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Strange how you are responding to everything with this but you won't respond your own answer except some vague implication that you are a heroic republican voter sticking it to the true women hater democrats via protest vote. What is your strategy for addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 16:39
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Strange how you are responding to everything with this but you won't respond your own answer except some vague implication that you are a heroic republican voter sticking it to the true women hater democrats via protest vote. Planned Parenthood is a self serving, unionbusting organization firmly in the democratic base. They charge uninsured women up to $1,000 an abortion and treat their employees like poo poo. If you were to be honest, the reproductive health environment for the vast majority of American women without employer sponsored plans looks like trash with or without the GOP trying to ban abortion outright.
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May 18, 2019 16:39
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Counteracting your "protest votes" for republicans is how one fights for the rights of women at this moment. Owlofcreamcheese posted:And at what point is your plan going to start getting results.
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May 18, 2019 16:40
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how is "get[ting] enough of the right people in power" not "challeng[ing] entrenched power interest directly?" how is not voting "sufficient to address the present crisis?" how are you translating your non-participation into political change
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May 18, 2019 16:43
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twodot posted:Hold yourself to your own standards. Abortion isn't banned in any democratically held states, same can't be said for republican held states. No matter how imperfect democrats are the "vote republican till democrats get better" strategy has zero evidence of working. Bernie sanders and AOC and the other good progressives come out of progressive areas, not as chosen one heroes rising out of republican districts.
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May 18, 2019 16:43
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If you vote conservative you are a conservative period. Protest voting isn't real. You are a trump voter if you vote trump. You don't get an asterisk next to the vote showing you just meant it as a way to support more progressivism by lodging a complaint against democratic leadership.
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May 18, 2019 16:45
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Abortion isn't banned in any democratically held states, same can't be said for republican held states. No matter how imperfect democrats are the "vote republican till democrats get better" strategy has zero evidence of working. Bernie sanders and AOC and the other good progressives come out of progressive areas, not as chosen one heroes rising out of republican districts. edit: Like at least protest voters can say "Well, not this cycle, and probably not the cycle after that, but give us 10 years of restructuring the Democratic party and removing trash politicians from power and then another 10 years of moving new politicians through local to state to national offices and in 20 years we might have a party worth voting for!" and maybe they're wrong, and maybe there's a better a way, and maybe 20 years is way too long, but they are at least articulating a vision for change. What does your plan offer except what we already have (a bunch of Republicans banning abortion)? twodot fucked around with this message at 16:52 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 16:45
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QuoProQuid posted:how is "get[ting] enough of the right people in power" not "challeng[ing] entrenched power interest directly?" Until our leaders believe that the threat of having their support pulled is credible, then they will behave as if furthering their own interests are the only things they need to concern themselves with. And history demonstrates this quite clearly, particularly the past two years. Do all the things that you are suggesting with supporting Progressive candidates in primary challenges, but that's not enough by itself. You have to couple it with a credible threat of either staying home or voting for the other guy to get your point across that your support is conditional. The Democratic Leadership is only so out of touch because there's no feedback mechanism to punish them for bad behavior. We need to establish a feedback mechanism- and we need to publicly punish them for bad behavior, because they need to understand that their power is conditional upon implementing the agenda of their base. As long as Democratic Leadership believes that they can throw any minority group under the bus whenever it suits them, then they're going to do just that to further their own interests and no one else is. The DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women demonstrates this principle in real time.
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May 18, 2019 16:49
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Abortion isn't banned in any democratically held states, same can't be said for republican held states. No matter how imperfect democrats are the "vote republican till democrats get better" strategy has zero evidence of working. Bernie sanders and AOC and the other good progressives come out of progressive areas, not as chosen one heroes rising out of republican districts. The DCCC is actively working to support pro-life Democrats, which over the long-term could result in abortion being banned in Democratic states. What is your strategy for addressing the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 16:51
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Zerilan posted:That power was created by voting for their fringe right candidates in primaries while also showing up at every general election to vote against the Democrat. They have power because they have high turnout as voters, the exact opposite of what you're proposing. They get that high turnout by saying and doing things their voters want This is a distinct difference from Joe Biden saying "suck it up you big gay losers nobody cares that you can't afford to exist"
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May 18, 2019 16:53
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