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twodot posted:No! At what point is your plan going to get results? Or are you saying your plan has already gotten the result of "Republicans hold a bunch of power and are banning abortion" and that was the outcome your plan was looking for? How is this not the result you and pester wanted? Did you think that while you were not voting or protest voting republican that some sort of "JK, just kidding! lol!" signal was going through? This is it, you won. Your protest votes got the result. States where people like me voted like me are producing things like good candidates like AOC, where a democrat winning was a sure thing to the point better democrats were beating worse sure thing ones in stunning upsets in primaries. Not seeing that happening out of the states you guys are winning.
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May 18, 2019 16:53
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay, but how does voting republican help this at all except letting everyone mark you down as a very reliable conservative voter who happens to have some weird complex motivation for it that no one anywhere cares about? You should really point out where she said she would vote republican vs not vote, you have a history of making up a straw man for a sick burn and then deciding that that is actually what has always been discussed and it's infuriating to watch you continue to argue with a position you literally made up when someone has explained their stance multiple times
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May 18, 2019 16:55
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:How is this not the result you and pester wanted?
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May 18, 2019 16:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:How is this not the result you and pester wanted? Cool now what about the states where an upset I'm the primary doesn't matter because the Dems back a pro life republican in the general
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May 18, 2019 16:56
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Also, conflating primary voting and general elections is p fuckin lol, even for you oocc Ignoring of course that it's entirely possible to put your thumb on the scale for the primaries, as we saw in 2008, what happens if the candidate who represents your views doesn't make it to the general? What should I do if Biden gets the nom? Should I hold my nose and vote for a man who explicitly does not give a poo poo about my survival?
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May 18, 2019 16:59
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twodot posted:No! I am asking you: And at what point is your plan going to start getting results. Perhaps, I've already won, I don't think I have, but I don't care to dispute it, when will you? The plan of voting democrat over republican then primary good democrats over bad democrats is like, literally the only thing that has ever won any progressive wins in any state or region ever. protest voting republican or protesting voting has a track record of zero for progressive policy. Like, alabama is the win of the protest vote. You got your hell. Progressives aren't popping out left and right. Your strategy is a failure. They are popping out of safe democratic regions, where primaries have become the real election.
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May 18, 2019 17:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The plan of voting democrat over republican then primary good democrats over bad democrats is like, literally the only thing that has ever won any progressive wins in any state or region ever. protest voting republican or protesting voting has a track record of zero for progressive policy. Owlofcreamcheese posted:And at what point is your plan going to start getting results.
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May 18, 2019 17:05
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The plan of voting democrat over republican then primary good democrats over bad democrats is like, literally the only thing that has ever won any progressive wins in any state or region ever. protest voting republican or protesting voting has a track record of zero for progressive policy. What is your solution to the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women?
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May 18, 2019 17:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The plan of voting democrat over republican then primary good democrats over bad democrats is like, literally the only thing that has ever won any progressive wins in any state or region ever. protest voting republican or protesting voting has a track record of zero for progressive policy. DCCC has a new rule blacklisting anyone who works with a primary challengers campaign, but yeah I'm sure primary challengers up against the full force of the establishment have a shot and it's not the system making sure it's secure from any challenge
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May 18, 2019 17:07
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twodot posted:Like do you have a date in mind? Some sort of timeline? Do you possibly think you've already achieved your goal, which is to say a nation with a bunch of Republicans in power banning abortion? Will your plan literally never work unless you can convince me personally to vote like you? Does it matter? Even if the answer is never you can still vote against republicans while cooking up your back woods army to storm the capital in a glorious revolution or whatever. Unless you have a plan that will fix everything pre-november 2020 you still can vote for harm reduction while you work on your superior plan.
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May 18, 2019 17:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Does it matter? Even if the answer is never you can still vote against republicans while cooking up your back woods army to storm the capital in a glorious revolution or whatever. Unless you have a plan that will fix everything pre-november 2020 you still can vote for harm reduction while you work on your superior plan. What harm reduction exactly will Joe "shut up pansies" Biden do
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May 18, 2019 17:15
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This argument has been settled. Prominent national Democrats (Manchin, Beto, Biden) and their backers like Howard Schultz have decided that Republicans winning seats is preferable to certain Democrats ergo if voters feel this way in reverse it is totally justified. If Democrats want a "vote blue no matter what" mindless mentality in their voters the absolute least they can do is practice it themselves.BENGHAZI 2 posted:What harm reduction exactly will Joe "shut up pansies" Biden do He plans to help reduce the Republicans bad image so there's that. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 17:16
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Does it matter? Even if the answer is never So we should follow your strategy whether it produces results or not, yes? That is your official stance? Because you are literally arguing here that whether or not your approach produces results is irrelevant- you are simply correct and we should all do as you say. It seems to me that you don't actually have a counter strategy and just want to shout "don't rock the boat!" at people who are having their rights undermined by the self-serving decisions of Democratic Leadership. A reasonable inference from the way you keep dodging a direct question is that your agenda here is not about addressing the problem- but rather about preserving the status quo that grants you so much privilege.
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May 18, 2019 17:20
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Does it matter? Even if the answer is never you can still vote against republicans while cooking up your back woods army to storm the capital in a glorious revolution or whatever. Unless you have a plan that will fix everything pre-november 2020 you still can vote for harm reduction while you work on your superior plan. Owlofcreamcheese posted:And at what point is your plan going to start getting results.
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May 18, 2019 17:21
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Prester Jane posted:So we should follow your strategy whether it produces results or not, yes? That is your official stance? Because you are literally arguing here that whether or not your approach produces results is irrelevant- you are simply correct and we should all do as you say. The last time this discussion came up oocc called me a bad person for wanting a 15/hr federal minimum wage and then said "well new York will have it next year so shut up" while missing that he was looking st the city and not the state Then it came out he's a computer toucher in East buttfuck where the cost of living is like ten bucks a century This isn't helldumping or doxxing, mods, this is remembering a previous conversation
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May 18, 2019 17:23
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Prester Jane posted:So we should follow your strategy whether it produces results or not, yes? The result of protest voting republican is alabama and the result of letting republicans win is the supreme court that might make alabama's laws hold. Whatever else you were doing didn't matter. Whatever half baked revolution you are working on hasn't happened in time. If you need more time to work on it you can take 5 minutes out of your day once every 2 years to vote harm reduction while you work on your grand plan to fix everything.
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May 18, 2019 17:24
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The result of protest voting republican A thing that you made up and nobody here has said they do
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May 18, 2019 17:26
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The result of protest voting republican is alabama and the result of letting republicans win is the supreme court that might make alabama's laws hold. Whatever else you were doing didn't matter. Whatever half baked revolution you are working on hasn't happened in time. If you need more time to work on it you can take 5 minutes out of your day once every 2 years to vote harm reduction while you work on your grand plan to fix everything. So your solution is to preserve the present status quo for an indefinite period of time. Gotcha.
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May 18, 2019 17:27
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It rules that every time this comes up oocc does the succdem thing of conflating not voting for the Dem with voting for a republican
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May 18, 2019 17:28
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I voted for the libertarian presidential candidate in the 2016 general in SC in hopes of helping push them over the matching funds threshold and be in a better position to siphon votes from R candidates in the future and I will never apologize. Also Hillary succed
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May 18, 2019 17:32
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:It rules that every time this comes up oocc does the succdem thing of conflating not voting for the Dem with voting for a republican Which is hilarious since the people just staying home are remaining neutral when actual Democratic politicians cross over to support the Republicans and that's fine. Which has more influence, some people deciding it's not worth their time to vote or Biden using his name and reputation as Obama's friend to support a Republican incumbent?
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May 18, 2019 17:32
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I'm going to vote for Bernie regardless of if he's the nominee
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May 18, 2019 17:38
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Radish posted:Which is hilarious since the people just staying home are remaining neutral when actual Democratic politicians cross over to support the Republicans and that's fine. It rules that Biden was literally cited as an example of the leftward shift of the democratic party and a proof-of-concept of why we should vote blue no matter who. Real talk ya'll: Anytime you hear "I agree with you but don't rock the boat" the only correct and viable response is to start doing jumping jacks until they learn to address you with respect.
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May 18, 2019 17:38
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PsychedelicWarlord posted:I'm going to vote for Bernie regardless of if he's the nominee I'm voting for kodos
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May 18, 2019 17:41
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7c Nickel posted:How do you square that with the fact that the Democratic Party has been moving left for the past 20 years or so? Everything I've seen during my lifetime suggest that electoral success creates room for movement to the left. I mean right now Biden is leading the pack after we lost to the right wing. Isn't that the exact opposite of what you think should happen? Joe Biden, Sterling example of the shift left
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May 18, 2019 17:42
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Joe Biden, Sterling example of the shift left Seriously on what planet are the Democrats moving left. Lots of the actual voters are but pretty much every politician of relevance is at best paying lip service to some leftist ideas while consoling their donors they plan to do nothing.
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May 18, 2019 17:45
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Radish posted:Seriously on what planet are the Democrats moving left. Lots of the actual voters are but pretty much every politician of relevance is at best paying lip service to some leftist ideas while consoling their donors they plan to do nothing. what is your metric for "moving left" QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 17:51
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QuoProQuid posted:what is your metric for "moving left" How about "not staning for republicans"? I realize that is a bar so low that it is literally lying on the floor- but Joe Boden somehow managed to trip over it and face plant anyways.
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May 18, 2019 18:03
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Prester Jane posted:How about "not staning for republicans"? I realize that is a bar so low that it is literally lying on the floor- but Joe Boden somehow managed to trip over it and face plant anyways. what does that practically mean? is it about voting record? is it about not accepting donations from certain groups? is it giving speeches that praise leftist ideas?
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May 18, 2019 18:10
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QuoProQuid posted:what is your metric for "moving left" Endorsing policies that will have a truly meaningful effect on the current and upcoming crises we face. Alternatively: Credible efforts to empower the dispossessed.
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May 18, 2019 18:12
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QuoProQuid posted:what does that practically mean? is it about voting record? is it about not accepting donations from certain groups? is it giving speeches that praise leftist ideas? https://theweek.com/speedreads/819291/joe-biden-got-200000-speech-that-reportedly-helped-elect-republican-house-member quote:In the speech, delivered for a $200,000 fee at Lake Michigan College, Biden described Upton — a long-serving congressman and coauthor of a 2017 bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act — as "one of the finest guys I've ever worked with." Biden, whose eldest son, Beau, died of brain cancer in 2015, also called Upton "the reason we're going to beat cancer," ostensibly for his work to fund cancer research. Both statements soon appeared in pro-Upton mailers, and Upton referred to the praise in a debate with his opponent, Matt Longjohn.
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May 18, 2019 18:15
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QuoProQuid posted:im trying to imagine being so brain broke that i can’t distinguish between a government of white nationalists and a government that implements some, but not all, of the policies i like
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May 18, 2019 18:17
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QuoProQuid posted:what does that practically mean? is it about voting record? is it about not accepting donations from certain groups? is it giving speeches that praise leftist ideas? To be glib look at what policies Sanders and to a lesser extent Warren are proposing during their campaigns. Can you honestly tell me any of those ideas have any traction amoung the party leaders? Those ideas should be the baseline but because the Democrats have been chasing the center for years they are labeled as extreme while reaching out the Republicans is considered sensible. Also I said this in the primary thread but it's relevent even more so here. Joe Biden is the one saying that Republicans are good guys that have been temporarily led astray. The Democratic front runner is the guy saying they aren't so bad so don't pretend that it's the voters who aren't taking poo poo seriously enough. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 18:31 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 18:23
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Prester Jane posted:What is your solution to the problem of the DCCC actively working to undermine the rights of women? Pardon me, but it does not appear you have any solutions yourself? All sane people are aware that the least bad outcome of the protest voter is to accomplish nothing. So where is your solution?
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May 18, 2019 18:27
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:Pardon me, but it does not appear you have any solutions yourself? All sane people are aware that the least bad outcome of the protest voter is to accomplish nothing. So where is your solution? To establish a credible threat to the party leaders that our support is contingent upon their compliance with implementing our agenda. This is how the people will power over their leaders. You don't control your leaders by giving them your unflagging support no matter how blatantly and publicly they stab you in the back. If you're looking for a precise itemized timeline for how this will all play out then you're asking me to be literally psychic and predict the future. No one can do that. I'm telling you what will work, and I'm telling you that the present status quo has demonstrably failed.
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May 18, 2019 18:30
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QuoProQuid posted:what does that practically mean? is it about voting record? is it about not accepting donations from certain groups? is it giving speeches that praise leftist ideas? It's about the decisions you make with the power you wield and how you choose to wielded and in what causes you support to wield that power. Joe Biden is no leftist, no friend to millennials, and completely disinterested in doing anything but attempting to drag the country back to the old status quo. He's not a leader. He's a smiley corporate tool. He might as well have the Craftsman logo branded on his forehead.
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May 18, 2019 18:34
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Radish posted:To be glib look at what policies Sanders and to a lesser extent Warren are proposing during their campaigns. Can you honestly tell me any of those ideas have any traction amount the party leaders? Those ideas should be the baseline but because the Democrats have been chasing the center for years they are labeled as extreme while reaching out the Republicans is considered sensible. what do you consider h.r. 1, the green new deal, and the equality act? how do you feel about every democratic candidate for president endorsing expansions of healthcare, welfare, and climate policies that would have been unthinkable a few years ago?
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May 18, 2019 18:35
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Prester Jane posted:To establish a credible threat to the party leaders that our support is contingent upon their compliance with implementing our agenda. This is how the people will power over their leaders. You don't control your leaders by giving them your unflagging support no matter how blatantly and publicly they stab you in the back. So you do not have a plan, I see. You can just admit instead of pretending the details are impossible. I find it very odd that you say "I'm telling you what will work" yet you told me nothing beyond the platitude? Refusing to vote and making protest votes for fringe candidate is no credible threat, just ask my foolish coworkers who refused to support Melenchon in our last presidential first round, and gave us a Macron-Le Pen second round. I think it say a lot about your true politics that you describe being asked for details as demands to be the psychic!
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May 18, 2019 18:37
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The standard voting strategy has led to Nazis marching in the streets, concentration camps, a general decline of the standard of living, a forever conservative federal court system, health care costs exploding, and a climate emergency that could ruin society as we know it so anyone advocating keeping the course isn't proposing anything better than literally nothing.
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May 18, 2019 18:37
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also, because people are thrusting joe biden at me, let me be clear that I support sanders, warren, and (in the bizarro world where he is viable) inslee
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May 18, 2019 18:38
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