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InsensitiveSeaBass
Apr 1, 2008

You're entering a realm which is unusual. Maybe it's magic, or contains some kind of monster... The second one. Prepare to enter The Scary Door.
Nap Ghost
I completely missed the boat on "watching eSports" as a thing; I never minded using spectator mode in a game, but the traditional sports broadcast style that say TBS does is lacking. More power to Will if he can figure out how to make a reality contest out of it.


Elsewhere, Chopped spun off Sweets specials into its own series. The crew is completely different it seems in addition to Scott Conant being both host and judge. The camera work is much different and the flow from watching God knows how many of the main Chopped is all off. Though after last night's Chopped Champions Grand final where they left the producer's instructions in at random points, I don't know what Food Network is doing.

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wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!
Will Arnett making bad jokes is the best thing about Lego Masters. Over produced, contestants that are coached to behave like characters, so much animation I'm not sure what is or isn't real, and very little time spent on the builds.

InsensitiveSeaBass
Apr 1, 2008

You're entering a realm which is unusual. Maybe it's magic, or contains some kind of monster... The second one. Prepare to enter The Scary Door.
Nap Ghost

TelevisedInsanity posted:


http://jordanhass.com/podcast/ironchef

Game Shows I Suppose is STILL going on, today (minutes ago) i uploaded the IRON CHEF episode.


Finally got around to listening to this episode, way to break kayfabe, it's still real to me! :argh: seriously though, solid work. Those Sandy Frank-rear end dubs were hilarious to watch in the Japanese version. It even got the 10 to 1 treatment on SNL, in addition to the Futurama episode.

InsensitiveSeaBass
Apr 1, 2008

You're entering a realm which is unusual. Maybe it's magic, or contains some kind of monster... The second one. Prepare to enter The Scary Door.
Nap Ghost
Empty Millionaire is... different. Maybe it'll get better once they get to the serious questions.

Gene Hackman Fan
Dec 27, 2002

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
in old game show news HOLY poo poo SOMEBODY FOUND AN EPISODE THE MONEYMAZE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFnGapNEnY4

no, i've never seen this show apart from the pilot, but i get hyped whenever somebody finds an episode of a series thought to be lost.

Gene Hackman Fan fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Apr 30, 2020

TelevisedInsanity
Dec 19, 2008

"You'll never know if you can fly unless you take the risk of falling."
I love reminding people that's George Clooney's father.

Also, Beat The Chasers debuted recently, and it's "an okay series", but I am one of those firm believers that not every UK Quiz Show needs to be adapted to US. (The Circle? Absolutely. Beat the Chasers? Maybe as a Half Hour?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2DpCN1sVEk

Also, Ryan Reynolds posted a trailer to Don't with Adam Scott (it's exactly what you expect)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL_O42hAn0A

Also, as it's the YEARLY TRADITION AROUND HERE, the summer list so far...



As of right now, because of COVID-19, most productions are in a stand-still so Supermarket Sweep, Card Sharks, Big Brother, etc. are all pretty much stuck in production lunch break.

TelevisedInsanity fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Apr 30, 2020

Spokes
Jan 9, 2010

Thanks for a MONSTER of an avatar, Awful Survivor Mods!
Big fan of Beat the Chasers, I don't mind that it's an hour. It moves at a pretty good pace. I particularly enjoyed yesterday's contestant who planned to use the money to finalize her boyfriend's divorce. Is there a casting megathread or anything? I'm itching to get on the TV and answer questions/fall in water/etc for some money once it's safe to leave the house

Maigius
Jun 29, 2013


Gene Hackman Fan posted:

in old game show news HOLY poo poo SOMEBODY FOUND AN EPISODE THE MONEYMAZE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFnGapNEnY4

no, i've never seen this show apart from the pilot, but i get hyped whenever somebody finds an episode of a series thought to be lost.

That was neat, however it looks like it could get lopsided very quickly in the points round.

Doggles
Apr 22, 2007

Based on the ads, I'm really interested in Ultimate Tag. Looks like they're trying to capture an American Gladiators style vibe with it.

On the other side of that coin, I was hugely disappointed with The Titan Games' first season and I'm surprised it's getting a second. The final round's obstacle course was phenomenal, but the first 55 minutes of each episode was an absolute waste of time. Why would you spend 5 minutes on the backstory of every contestant along with footage of them getting the call to be a contestant, only for them to be immediately eliminated in their first round lasting less than a minute?!

TelevisedInsanity posted:

As of right now, because of COVID-19, most productions are in a stand-still so Supermarket Sweep, Card Sharks, Big Brother, etc. are all pretty much stuck in production lunch break.

:smith:

While I prefer the "best 2 out of 3 rounds" format of the original Card Sharks, I still very much enjoyed the modern series. Great mix of risk/reward gameplay with Joel McHale as the cherry on top. Was hoping it'd be back for the Summer.

Only got into ABC's lineup of game shows last year because of the return of Press Your Luck. They've been doing a fantastic job of updating classic game shows. Before then I had no idea modern versions of Match Game, To Tell the Truth, and Pyramid had been running for years! Not seeing Pyramid on the schedule I looked it up and apparently it also got delayed because of COVID-19.

I'm ecstatic that Holey Moley is back. The golf is nothing but a conduit through which Joe Tessitore and Rob Riggle serve up amazing commentary. I think I just spent the last half hour watching highlights of my favorite parts from the first season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_qOZbjH_q8&t=569s - Start at 9:30 and watch to the part where they have to find the contestant's glasses.

Gene Hackman Fan
Dec 27, 2002

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Maigius posted:

That was neat, however it looks like it could get lopsided very quickly in the points round.

which i think was why the last round was supposed to give the trailing team a chance to get as many right as they could.

supposed to, because oof. out on the first question

hexwren
Feb 27, 2008

Doggles posted:

Why would you spend 5 minutes on the backstory of every contestant along with footage of them getting the call to be a contestant, only for them to be immediately eliminated in their first round lasting less than a minute?!

Because it's basically the same format concept as the olympics - people don't actually care about the GAME they care about the HUMAN ELEMENT

(which is horseshit considering how much complaining I hear about NBC's olympics coverage, but apparently middle america just eats that poo poo up)

I think the wall or whatever that game was did similar poo poo, and I think the way was pointed out by the us deal or no deal, which I remember a number of times breaking off from the game to be like HERE'S THE FAMILY AND THEIR DREAMS

it's reality show nonsense and I want none of it. fuckin' run the numbers, play your poo poo and win big or go home


the money maze is good poo poo, though. I love the useless cruft of having them pass questions back and forth by flipping the lever to pick one or the other

also, from someone born in that part of new jersey, I never think of flemington being where furs come from, that's where my father went to go get drunk and watch the dirt track auto racing

InsensitiveSeaBass
Apr 1, 2008

You're entering a realm which is unusual. Maybe it's magic, or contains some kind of monster... The second one. Prepare to enter The Scary Door.
Nap Ghost

Doggles posted:

On the other side of that coin, I was hugely disappointed with The Titan Games' first season and I'm surprised it's getting a second. The final round's obstacle course was phenomenal, but the first 55 minutes of each episode was an absolute waste of time. Why would you spend 5 minutes on the backstory of every contestant along with footage of them getting the call to be a contestant, only for them to be immediately eliminated in their first round lasting less than a minute?!

I think American Ninja Warrior gets the sad sack story ratio right, even if it means my favorite Ninjas get shunted to the commercial breaks. I'm hoping they figure out some crazy marathon taping in St. Louis' dome to salvage the season.

quote:

Only got into ABC's lineup of game shows last year because of the return of Press Your Luck. They've been doing a fantastic job of updating classic game shows. Before then I had no idea modern versions of Match Game, To Tell the Truth, and Pyramid had been running for years! Not seeing Pyramid on the schedule I looked it up and apparently it also got delayed because of COVID-19.

I'm impressed we're getting any of these shows this summer. All my assumptions about production location and schedule are blow up by at least one New York (Match Game) and Los Angeles (Press Your Luck) show airing this summer. Holey Moley I think is shot way in advance, but Card Sharks being in Las Vegas probably hurt it.

Doggles
Apr 22, 2007

Pluto TV added Game Show Central to its lineup today! Was scrolling down to watch Buzzr and noticed the new channel right next to it.

Buzzr is filled mainly with 50s to 80s game shows with a dash of Supermarket Sweep, and it's looking like Game Show Central is a channel filled with GSN originals.

So those along with the 24/7 American Gladiators, MST3K, and Rifftrax channels have been holding my sanity together while stuck at home. :downs:

hexwren
Feb 27, 2008

I watched an episode of the card sharks revival and hate basically everything about it. It's glacially paced---the same basic problem as the new press your luck where they have to make every moment suspenseful and ask the player's input about every single move instead of just letting them actually ride the wave of a good card and yell HIGHER LOWER HIGHER FREEZE as they flip the cards as soon as they get their hands on them. the shift from excitement as the driving emotion to suspense (starting with millionaire, if memory serves) is probably the shittiest design decision the entire industry made


and I have no idea who the host is but I want to drag him offstage by his tie

I don't remember if he was wearing a tie

Sighence
Aug 26, 2009

McHale's relentless mocking of people's bad decisions is roughly 3/4 of his career (the last quarter being roles that the 3/4 should absolutely be dumping all over). He requires a much more solid context to riff off and when he has it there's nobody better at the job. He's a very strange choice to host this, though.

Holey Moley being back, let alone being made, is the most :psyduck: thing to me. It feels like a Kabletown show but they are making it for real and I don't understand it.

garthoneeye
Feb 18, 2013

hexwren posted:

the shift from excitement as the driving emotion to suspense (starting with millionaire, if memory serves) is probably the shittiest design decision the entire industry made

Completely agree. Millionaire was a decent game, but I now hate it for what it’s done to basically every primetime gameshow since. It’s also exacerbated by the human interest bullshit brought in from reality and Deal or No Deal.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf
So who else has been watching a shitload of Price is Right?

OmegaBR
Feb 14, 2012

Come to me .... and live forever.
TBS announced they're reviving ABC's Wipeout. No details other than the iconic Big Balls will be back.

hexwren
Feb 27, 2008

The Glumslinger posted:

So who else has been watching a shitload of Price is Right?
I probably should, but I'm an old who wants to watch old episodes. It'd be nice to see some old stuff in better-than-early-00s-.rm-file quality, which is what everything online appears to be.

rockinricky
Mar 27, 2003

hexwren posted:

I probably should, but I'm an old who wants to watch old episodes. It'd be nice to see some old stuff in better-than-early-00s-.rm-file quality, which is what everything online appears to be.

Probably won't happen as long as Bob Barker breathes. I wish GSN or at least Buzzr had them, I remember hearing that Fremantle won't syndicate TPIR because they don't want reruns competing with new episodes. They could at least leave out eps where fur coats were offered, but that would eliminate the very first episode, where a fur coat was the first item up for bids.

hexwren
Feb 27, 2008

that makes sense, but I'm really more confused by the episodes that I do find all being at such lovely bitrates. sure, I get a youtube upload being from somebody's old tape, but you'd think they'd have better-resolution captures of said old tapes, idk.

rockinricky
Mar 27, 2003
I can ruin a perfect show on The Price is Right with only 6 letters.

P L I N K O

rockinricky
Mar 27, 2003
I saw someone on Facebook saying They are NEVER watching The Price is Right EVER AGAIN!

Not just because RuPaul was on Monday's TPIR at Night episode, but because Ru had the utter audacity to be playing for Planned Parenthood. Sometimes religious people make me laugh.

Spokes
Jan 9, 2010

Thanks for a MONSTER of an avatar, Awful Survivor Mods!
Bizarre, because it's much more reasonable to boycott because RuPaul is a fracking baron

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
I finally finished the last season of The Challenge on the bad MTV app and started on this one. Something had to give when Wednesday became a wrestling war again and it ended up being the Challenge. It ended up being a decent season even if the gameplay was beyond dumb for most of the game although it was interesting how much team USA ended up paying for that in the end.

You can tell this season's "you must compete in an elimination to make the finals" rule is a response to that, and probably a necessary one since the social game in the current format had been pretty much a solved equation with the core group of players, although I do wonder if it's a problem that would've taken care of itself over time and attrition of the alliance. I have a feeling, especially given the spoilery episode titles that Jay from Survivor isn't long for the game but he's been a nice fit and his willingness to just dive into the politics is something you don't see from new players to that show very often.

Victorkm
Nov 25, 2001

Rick posted:

I finally finished the last season of The Challenge on the bad MTV app and started on this one. Something had to give when Wednesday became a wrestling war again and it ended up being the Challenge. It ended up being a decent season even if the gameplay was beyond dumb for most of the game although it was interesting how much team USA ended up paying for that in the end.

You can tell this season's "you must compete in an elimination to make the finals" rule is a response to that, and probably a necessary one since the social game in the current format had been pretty much a solved equation with the core group of players, although I do wonder if it's a problem that would've taken care of itself over time and attrition of the alliance. I have a feeling, especially given the spoilery episode titles that Jay from Survivor isn't long for the game but he's been a nice fit and his willingness to just dive into the politics is something you don't see from new players to that show very often.

I have never liked Rogan since he wussed out on the opening race on his first season. His second season when he won without ever going into elimination or even being in danger of it didnt endear him to me, and he's even more full of himself this season and after what he did to Jay man do I hate his rear end.

TelevisedInsanity
Dec 19, 2008

"You'll never know if you can fly unless you take the risk of falling."

rockinricky posted:

I saw someone on Facebook saying They are NEVER watching The Price is Right EVER AGAIN!

Not just because RuPaul was on Monday's TPIR at Night episode, but because Ru had the utter audacity to be playing for Planned Parenthood. Sometimes religious people make me laugh.

Was this on Dob's facebook page or the official one that is full of people still upset there are male models on the show? Either way, it's always hilariously bad.

Rick posted:

I finally finished the last season of The Challenge on the bad MTV app and started on this one. Something had to give when Wednesday became a wrestling war again and it ended up being the Challenge. It ended up being a decent season even if the gameplay was beyond dumb for most of the game although it was interesting how much team USA ended up paying for that in the end.

You can tell this season's "you must compete in an elimination to make the finals" rule is a response to that, and probably a necessary one since the social game in the current format had been pretty much a solved equation with the core group of players, although I do wonder if it's a problem that would've taken care of itself over time and attrition of the alliance. I have a feeling, especially given the spoilery episode titles that Jay from Survivor isn't long for the game but he's been a nice fit and his willingness to just dive into the politics is something you don't see from new players to that show very often.

The game show community really falls asleep on The Challenge, and I still have no idea why (shameless plug for the most recent episode) - because they've somehow figured out the format that can PLEASE every fan of these reality-comps by bringing them back year-after-year and always bringing in new people from other reality-comp shows and have that versatile format where something like needing a skull to get into the final challenge makes for real strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Z07-kKk2U

They are starting to put up full episodes of "Schlag Den Raab" to YouTube, and I have been enjoying this strange sports-quiz-skill-variety game show package that can really come down to "MILLION DOLLAR 8-BALL"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCLscnIzLGA

Also, I enjoy the idea of Celebrity Escape Room for NBC's Red Nose Day, but I gotta be honest, it feels like a pilot for a game show they'll take later on than a simple "one and done"

Also, Millionaire is still terrible, and I think Celebrities with Jeopardy-Champion Plants wasn't a good look for the show amid COVID-19, and Jimmy sounds/looks bored, because there isn't really much of an audience to play with, and no civilians to really root-for, making for a boring version on a really cool set. Kimmel was a good choice, considering Clarkson over in the UK, and making the show different than Regis/Tarrant, but they couldn't figure that out, so it hiccups

Oh yeah, and wipeout is coming back, with the big balls.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

Victorkm posted:

I have never liked Rogan since he wussed out on the opening race on his first season. His second season when he won without ever going into elimination or even being in danger of it didnt endear him to me, and he's even more full of himself this season and after what he did to Jay man do I hate his rear end.

He's awful.

TelevisedInsanity posted:

The game show community really falls asleep on The Challenge, and I still have no idea why (shameless plug for the most recent episode) - because they've somehow figured out the format that can PLEASE every fan of these reality-comps by bringing them back year-after-year and always bringing in new people from other reality-comp shows and have that versatile format where something like needing a skull to get into the final challenge makes for real strategy.

I definitely agree. It often feels like one of the innovators in the genre, which is amazing for a show that's a 20 year old competition show between two long dead reality shows.

Doggles
Apr 22, 2007

Doggles posted:

Based on the ads, I'm really interested in Ultimate Tag. Looks like they're trying to capture an American Gladiators style vibe with it.

Ultimate Tag :monocle:

Ultimate Tag is everything that was great about 90s American Gladiators in everything but name! Went into the first episode hoping for something at least better than The Titan Games and came away blown away!

There is absolutely zero sob story bullshit in it. Each of the 6 contestants gets about a 10 second introduction, as do the taggers, and the rest of the time is dedicated purely to the events! Each of which would fit almost seamlessly into an American Gladiators episode! UT's events are timed to last around 2 minutes whereas AG's last about 1, so one of the women's events wound up being summarized rather than shown which I'm not a fan of. Not sure where they could find the extra time for it though, there's not a whole lot of fat to trim unlike in The Titan Games! :v:

Aside from skipping showing one of the events, the only real negative thing I have to say about the first episode is that the final event is underwhelming compared to the events that lead up to it, so it's like the exact opposite problem The Titan Games has. Instead of each contestant running an obstacle course one at a time, I'd rather see the contestants go head to head somehow.

Fox might be on to something by making sincere knock-offs of properties other networks are squandering. The Orville is the true successor to Star Trek, and Ultimate Tag is looking to be the true successor to American Gladiators!

hexwren
Feb 27, 2008

Doggles posted:

There is absolutely zero sob story bullshit in it.

You have my attention.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
This is not in regards to the current Challenge episode since I'm still a few behind but it's really interesting how many "production obviously putting their thumb on the scale" eliminations we've had that have gone the other way this season.

InsensitiveSeaBass
Apr 1, 2008

You're entering a realm which is unusual. Maybe it's magic, or contains some kind of monster... The second one. Prepare to enter The Scary Door.
Nap Ghost

Doggles posted:

Ultimate Tag

There better be some form of tennis ball gun eventually :colbert:

Doggles
Apr 22, 2007

InsensitiveSeaBass posted:

There better be some form of tennis ball gun eventually :colbert:

:hmmyes:

surf rock
Aug 12, 2007

We need more women in STEM, and by that, I mean skateboarding, television, esports, and magic.
I decided to watch the premiere of "Game On!" since it has Keegan-Michael Key and Ian Karmel as hosts and I really like them both.

Key's the main host and didn't get to do much as a result, but Karmel was funny. I don't think this kind of show is my thing, but it had that going for it at least.

Also, I didn't realize that Vanessa Williams was like a charisma black hole, yikes.

TelevisedInsanity
Dec 19, 2008

"You'll never know if you can fly unless you take the risk of falling."

surf rock posted:

I decided to watch the premiere of "Game On!" since it has Keegan-Michael Key and Ian Karmel as hosts and I really like them both.

Key's the main host and didn't get to do much as a result, but Karmel was funny. I don't think this kind of show is my thing, but it had that going for it at least.

Also, I didn't realize that Vanessa Williams was like a charisma black hole, yikes.

James Corden hosted the UK version, and much like most Late Late Show - it felt segmented for the purposes of cutting up and putting up on YouTube later for those VIRAL LAUGH OUT LOUD moments "OMG guess who can't kick a field goal!" "Bobby Lee attempts to block soccer shots by COOLIO, MARK MCGRATH and MACY GRAY!"

Also, Summer Fun & Games returned (most ABC affiliates didn't air it because protests are more important, so it's on Hulu and ABC.com)

Celebrity Family Feud is still hilarious, I still can't get into Match Game ("Make the obvious joke" and watch Baldwin try and act excited to be there)

But Press Your Luck was really good - they brought back some silly prizes (Flokatti Rug) and other game show classics (Trip to Space Camp!) but this episode had a very emotional final round - and Won $450,000+ - the most money ever on Press Your Luck but still felt very sad seeing An Accessibility Van as a "Dream Prize" won, and the importance, and then see it get whammied away, and the look of devistation on not just the contestant, but Elizabeth and the audience when that happened.

HBO Max is now out which means "Legendary" is released (an actually pretty good dance competition series, even though i don't know a lick about vogue houses) and "Craftopia", the best craft-making competition show I have ever seen.

And today - STAR WARS - JEDI TEMPLE CHALLENGE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynDMTiamRRY

Thursday, we get some more "Holey Moley" - the format is basically a "winner take all" format, where only one of the golfers gets $250,000 (the rest get just the putter and jacket) and it's still very weird.... starting to think it should've just been a $25,000 with a $100,000 final, but the holes are very clever (and Riggle poking fun at how cheap some of them are is hilarious)

This Sunday - Hollywood Game Night returns, no "stay at home special", just some celebrities from NBC-Universal Adjacent Properties plugging their shows to help a contestant win $25,000 (or most likely $8,000) by playing some very clever pop-culture games!

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.
He obviously wasn't the only one to do it, but Corden's chatshow being designed into little perfectly viral pieces has slowly eroded so much of what we see now, particularly from late night and well pretty much most of what we see on TV that isn't scripted. A clip by its nature is something taken from a larger whole and the crafted fabrication of those moments leaves this horrible stench over the whole thing. Like if you take THE GRAHAM NORTON SHOW as the other example yeah they post up clips on YouTube just like everyone else and it's the more traditional (with the risque element) chatshow stuff. But they kind of feel more organic somehow (Even though it's largely not) and everyone usually looks so much more comfortable on his show. I know booze is a factor there but Norton is underrated as someone who's really good at making celebrities relax. If Harrison Ford is having a fun time on your chatshow then you're doing something right.

InsensitiveSeaBass
Apr 1, 2008

You're entering a realm which is unusual. Maybe it's magic, or contains some kind of monster... The second one. Prepare to enter The Scary Door.
Nap Ghost
Anderson Cooper is dummy. A lucky half million dollar winner, but a dummy nonetheless. I did learn that comparing someone's brain to jello has basis in fact.

hexwren
Feb 27, 2008

Watched the first episode of Epic Gameshow with slight trepidation, but that's because I was getting Alan Carr (who I had no particular opinion on, but after this am not super-enthused about him as a game show host) confused with Steve Coogan's Alan Partridge alter ego. Coogan, I absolutely cannot stand in any format.

It's Play Your Cards Right/Card Sharks with a few tweaks and an odd final-four format (two regular games to determine which two teams (celebrity couples) play a weird semifinal where both teams have to hi-lo the same row of cards, then an expanded money cards final round), and I just found it fairly tedious. Not terrible, just somewhat dull. The set was overlarge, with Carr having to, especially in the very last round where he dealt and switched and revealed the cards himself, truck quite a ways up and down the stairs of the money cards "pyramid" setpiece every time the players wanted to switch.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

rockinricky posted:

Probably won't happen as long as Bob Barker breathes. I wish GSN or at least Buzzr had them, I remember hearing that Fremantle won't syndicate TPIR because they don't want reruns competing with new episodes. They could at least leave out eps where fur coats were offered, but that would eliminate the very first episode, where a fur coat was the first item up for bids.

What do fur coats have to do with anything? Gameshow fans really up in arms about the fur trade these days, to the point they condemn theoretical old reruns of a show that once had them?

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InsensitiveSeaBass
Apr 1, 2008

You're entering a realm which is unusual. Maybe it's magic, or contains some kind of monster... The second one. Prepare to enter The Scary Door.
Nap Ghost

Khanstant posted:

What do fur coats have to do with anything? Gameshow fans really up in arms about the fur trade these days, to the point they condemn theoretical old reruns of a show that once had them?

Bob's a big animal rights activist, though I forget if it's him or some of his Beauties that are in PETA. He also sticks to his guns for a long time; they only used American cars only after Dessert Storm for years at his insistence.

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