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GABA ghoul posted:
His machine destroyed the original universe, spawning the knot in its place. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 00:01
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Finished watching it, some thoughts: First of all, I'm absolutely glad I watched it, the journey was spectacular, the amount of work they put into the science, philosophy and paradox upon paradox of it was immense, and I'd be keen to see what the show creators do next. I do however think that season 3 was fairly weak, and as soon as the the idea of parallel universes and, I guess, the many-worlds interpretation was introduced, things started to go awry. The first and second season set up a closed looped scenario of time travel, with all the paradoxes and predestination loops making it clear that this was a closed Universe. It seemed likely that Adam could never break out of his past. The end of the show kind of breaks this altogether and the result is a bit questionable. It was fairly obvious Claudia had figured out how to break the loop, but it wasn't particularly obvious how she discovered Tannhaus was the origin, since presumably the world jumping device only allowed travelling between the loop worlds, and not the origin world? Her interfering and breaking the loop by having Adam send Jonas to stop Martha being captured and killed by Adam, creates a paradox in itself. Without Martha being captured, the events leading to Claudia telling Adam the origin wouldn't have happened, so Jonas wouldn't have been directed, and so on and so forth. Again the first part of the series is going "everything is pre-determined, there is no way out of fate," only for the ending to go "Well actually you can do this and nothing bad will happen." Are we to presume that this one action is the result of a "quantum" event? A once-every-trillionth-of-a-loop they're able to break it? If its supposed to be a situation like with alt-Jonas and alt-Martha, then the sad situation is that the loop will continue then because it will always exist as an alternative route. The other problem is that, if she could interfere to break the loop, she could have done that at any point whatsoever. She didn't need to complete the loop, she simply needed to get Jonas and Martha together and send them back to the origin point. Why exactly did she need to wait until the very end to go "Ta-da! You're such an idiot Adam." The last problem I have is that, it renders all of the intrigue and plot points of the first and second season mute. None of it matters because we've just erased both timelines. Admittedly that was probably going to happen anyway, and from a writers perspective of doing time travel there is probably no easy way out of that, but to a viewer it could be a bit of a kick in the crotch! Overall though I absolutely enjoyed the journey, a fantastic mind bending series. I just think that the ending might have been a cop out in some ways. An attempt to find a "good" end rather than take the route the movies Predestination or Twelve Monkeys did, where everything is pre-written.
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Jul 18, 2020 14:39
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Escobarbarian posted:307 question: how did Hannah get to 1911 with Silja when she only had one of the 33 year devices? IIRC it was hinted that Eva helped her out.
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Jul 18, 2020 16:42
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Communist Bear posted:Finished watching it, some thoughts: The world jumping device absolutely allowed traveling to the origin world – but it was destroyed and inaccessible. That's why Jonas and Martha had to travel to the exact time when Tannhaus used his device – the only moment when all three universes existed simultaneously – stand in the passage and use the ball portal. How did Claudia figure out Tannhaus was the origin? When you assume the know was created by an outside interference, Tannhaus is the obvious candidate. Out of all people who weren't spawned by the knot itself, he's the guy who knows a lot about time travel, talks about it to everyone who wants to listen, has ancestors interested in time travel, wanted to build a time machine at some point of his life, etc. Yet, for some mysterious reason, in both worlds he doesn't travel at all, even after Claudia gave him blueprints and the Stranger Jonas shown him a working machine. This mysterious reason is, of course, Elizabeth and Charlotte depositing his surrogate granddaughter on his doorstep. This is the event that makes him lose interest in time travel. The knot gave pretty much everyone around Tannhaus the ability to hop through time and gently caress their ancestors, but for some reason it intervened to prevent this particular guy from time traveling. Of course this was because every universe where Tannhaus wanted to build a time machine would have been blasted into oblivion before even letting Jonas and Martha get born. With this knowledge, it's relatively easy to pinpoint the time when the machine has been built in the origin world – it would be just before he got Charlotte. quote:Her interfering and breaking the loop by having Adam send Jonas to stop Martha being captured and killed by Adam, creates a paradox in itself. Without Martha being captured, the events leading to Claudia telling Adam the origin wouldn't have happened, so Jonas wouldn't have been directed, and so on and so forth. Again the first part of the series is going "everything is pre-determined, there is no way out of fate," only for the ending to go "Well actually you can do this and nothing bad will happen." Are we to presume that this one action is the result of a "quantum" event? A once-every-trillionth-of-a-loop they're able to break it? If its supposed to be a situation like with alt-Jonas and alt-Martha, then the sad situation is that the loop will continue then because it will always exist as an alternative route. She used the same mechanics which Eva hijacked to prevent her child from getting destroyed. Time traveling during the Apocalypse breaks causality – that's why the Martha that got to Jonas and the Martha that was stopped by Bartosz exist simultaneously. Claudia did the exact same thing to spawn two versions of herself, one of which got to Adam. quote:The other problem is that, if she could interfere to break the loop, she could have done that at any point whatsoever. She didn't need to complete the loop, she simply needed to get Jonas and Martha together and send them back to the origin point. Why exactly did she need to wait until the very end to go "Ta-da! You're such an idiot Adam." She needed three things: 1. The Apocalypse – if it wouldn't happen, she couldn't use it to break causality. 2. The ball time machine – as the only one that travels between worlds. 3. Adam's cooperation, because he was the one who knew when Magnus and Francizka kidnapped Martha. Especially 3) meant she had to wait until Adam's plan failed completely and he was desperate enough to listen to her.
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Jul 18, 2020 18:48
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How far back are y'all spoiling? I'm still working my way through S2 and I'd like to know when I can actually read the thread.
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Jul 19, 2020 15:36
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Just finished season 3 after this being my most hyped for a tv show in a long rear end time. Enjoyed it a lot even though the show changed more from a time travel murder mystery to full blown time travel mindfuck paradoxes. The OST for this season was amazing, the licensed songs they used toward the end of each episode were all bangers.
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Jul 19, 2020 15:40
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cebrail posted:2. Was Boris/Alexander really just a random dude who fled from the law when he met Regina? It felt like he knew something at that point but I guess that's really the first time he met anyone and he had never been to Winden. Was that just a fake out to make the viewers think he was also a time traveller? Were there any hints to the backstory of Clausen in season 3 that I missed beyond what we already knew by the end of season 2? For a story where everyone knows or is related to each other it seems weird to have him be so prominent in season 2, die in the apocalypse, and not hear about the character again. Absolutely loved Season 1 and 2 and didn't find story confusing at all. Season 3 was a bit much. There were basic scenes like the meeting of the marthas and adam and evas crews suiting up that were probably intended to be very important/emotional in the moment, but came off as absurd because so much of the plot was hidden/uncertain to really understand the consequences or downstream impacts. Originally watched season 3 the initial weekend and probably worth a rewatch now that I know where it's all going. KingNastidon fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 18:06
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Ulio posted:Just finished season 3 after this being my most hyped for a tv show in a long rear end time. Enjoyed it a lot even though the show changed more from a time travel murder mystery to full blown time travel mindfuck paradoxes. Yeah the cover of “Bad Kingdom” was especially great. Reallt good music choices overall!
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Jul 19, 2020 18:26
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Gantolandon posted:The world jumping device absolutely allowed traveling to the origin world – but it was destroyed and inaccessible. That's why Jonas and Martha had to travel to the exact time when Tannhaus used his device – the only moment when all three universes existed simultaneously – stand in the passage and use the ball portal. 
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Jul 19, 2020 19:26
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Ulio posted:The OST for this season was amazing, the licensed songs they used toward the end of each episode were all bangers. I think the only song I actively disliked was that completely on-the-nose Ariadne song. Dude needs to learn some subtlety in his lyrics, and his voice is grating. sticklefifer fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Jul 20, 2020 09:38
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I've been away from this forum for a long time so I forgot about specific policies: is it fine if I post a link to a personal blog? I wrote about 9.000 words on the ending, just about the conceptual aspects, and I'm pretty sure it's readable only for those who have a very specific interest. In general I think there's a decent "solution" about the whole thing that works logically, but there's a giant hole left about the set-up itself. Most people instead seem to focus entirely on the resolution itself. It's kind of weird.
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Jul 26, 2020 00:33
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Abalieno posted:I've been away from this forum for a long time so I forgot about specific policies: is it fine if I post a link to a personal blog?  I am interested in reading it!
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Jul 26, 2020 03:19
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It starts here: http://loopingworld.com/2020/07/19/dark-and-the-illusion-of-sufficiency/ The first part is the general point of view, the second part is absurdly long and contains the explanation of the finale, the third part is about what doesn't work... But all three parts are needed to build the overall argument.
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Jul 26, 2020 06:57
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Black Griffon posted:How far back are y'all spoiling? I'm still working my way through S2 and I'd like to know when I can actually read the thread. I would just finish the series before reading further.
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Jul 31, 2020 23:42
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I held off on watching the third season for about a month, ended up rewatching the second and then the first season again. Finally watched it over the course of the past two weeks. It was a trip, not the big mindfuck I hoped it would be, but I was left fairly satisfied. I think it might've helped to actually tone down the tangled plots a bit and focus more on the last part of the main characters' journeys, but I'm good with how it ended. My thoughts: I do get the feeling season 3, unlike 2, might've seen some significant changes from original plans. Like, things were thrown around a little. The 7th episode in particular, where it feels like clean-up before the final episode. Bartosz meeting Silja is just done in a snap. And Hannah popping in with young Silja just to round out her role (though, I did think her conclusion with Adam was fantastically chilling). And while the monologues are always nicely written and delivered well, particularly in the final episode I got a little fatigued of Adam, Eva and Claudia waxing about everyone's Schiksal and how NOW, everyone was finally ready to understand. The dual family tree in Eva's "headquarters" was mindblowing. I had to pause the episode right there and just sat piecing together names for a while. The parallel worlds thing made things pretty complicated, especially trying to keep track of where/which Martha was. In particular the episode where the freshly scarred Martha kills Jonas, and then you see Martha in her 1888 dress get stuffed into a cage by Silja, had me rewinding and scratching my head. They of course presented us with the Schrödinger's cat experiment to foreshadow the idea that two conflicting events could occur simultaneously, but reconciling that was tricky. I thought I had it figured out when I assumed that I was seeing bits from different cycles, where things happened a little different but ultimately met at the same point. But I'm not sure if that works when Older Jonas remembers a past in which he saved himself from the Apocalypse by hiding in the basement, in the same cycle where Alternate Martha saved Jonas. I do love how the show got to play around with the concept of slightly different mirror images of the characters, though. Hearing Elizabeth speak was a trip, Woller missing an arm instead of an eye, the 80s kid's room for the time machine experiments is yellow instead of blue, etc. I thought it was a slight shame they relaxed the rigid rule that time travel could only occur in increments of 33 years. I thought that restriction was really interesting in a time travel story. I think Hannah breaks it when she appears at Tannhaus's factory (was it 1911?) with Silja being about 8 or 9 years old. Unless my math is off. And of course, Martha and Jonas travelling back to the 70s in the final episode. The conclusion they went with was sweet, but I was kind of hoping the solution would've been something staring us in the face the whole show. "Prevent a tragedy so the guy doesn't invent time travel" was kind of Hollywood. For a moment, though, I thought Martha and Jonas were going to CAUSE the accident, as I'm sure did many other people (and perhaps that was intentional by the showrunners). I wouldn't have minded a dark "you're trapped in the loop forever" ending. I guess I was hoping for something that would blow my mind, the way some moments in the show did (like finding out Charlotte and Elizabeth are each other's mother AND daughter). The ending with the childhood friends was also quite sweet. I like that Peter and Benni apparently ended up together. And bookending it with Woller still not getting to share his secret was real funny. No matter what doubts I might have about the story, the show was absolutely gorgeous to watch. Great use of effects both complicate and simple, but the camerawork and set dressing, man. Season 2 had that one episode where you get contemplative, fantastical shots like Katharina imagining Mikkel back in his bed, and it just looks beautiful. I really hope I'll see more of these actors in times to come. And again, loving amazing how this show managed to find actors who are good at their job AND recognizably look like older/younger versions of each other. I can not get over that. edit: poo poo, in my excitement to jot things down, didn't think to use spoiler tags. Also, a bunch of stuff I wasn't clear on got cleared up by reading the last few pages! davidspackage fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 08:06
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davidspackage posted:And again, loving amazing how this show managed to find actors who are good at their job AND recognizably look like older/younger versions of each other. I can not get over that. I hope this shames the English language TV and movie business in making a similar effort and not coming up with families where the parents look nothing like their children and the age difference between actors is way too low. With a pool of actors so much bigger then Germany they must be able to do better. CeeJee fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 08:16
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CeeJee posted:I hope this shames the English language TV and movie business in making a similar effort and not coming up with families where the parents look nothing like their children and the age difference between actors is way too low. With a pool of actors so much bigger then Germany they must be able to do better. As we're comparing, I don't think I have ever seen this kind of complexity in English language tv series, it's very refreshing. I wonder how an American production would have handled this material.
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Aug 3, 2020 08:58
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I mean I started thinking about Primer, and then about how Upstream Color is both gorgeous and beautifully complex, but the general American showrunner would've hosed it up. davidspackage posted:And bookending it with Woller still not getting to share his secret was real funny. Close to one of my favorite moments in the show.
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Aug 3, 2020 09:22
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CeeJee posted:I hope this shames the English language TV and movie business in making a similar effort and not coming up with families where the parents look nothing like their children and the age difference between actors is way too low. With a pool of actors so much bigger then Germany they must be able to do better. Something I've noticed a lot more lately in American productions is when children of actors also become actors and play their parents' characters, like Dark did with Peter Doppler. Mamie Gummer has played a younger Meryl Streep, O'Shea Jackson played Ice Cube in Straight Outta Compton, Agents of SHIELD just introduced Bill Paxton's son as a younger version of his villain from earlier in the series, etc. It definitely helps with the mannerisms since they're so used to being around them.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:36
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I really enjoyed it but suddenly inserting a third world and ctrl-alt-deleting it within a matter of just a small number of episodes at the end was a disappointing way to end it. Too many open ends. We don't actually see what adult charlotte/future elizabeth did with baby charlotte when they kidnapped her? It seemed to only serve to give Hanno a motivation to appear in the main story as he did in the first two seasons. That's just one example. Too many characters left to dangle, or not given satisfying ends, like Ulrich or Hanno, or even the cross-world son. Just... ctrl-alt-deus machina. I also don't feel they ever explained or went over the time travel shenanigans right at the start, with the burnt eye kids and the small room in the basement. What were those contraptions? Failed initial attempts at time travel? But why, when Hanno already knew there were working devices under the church? kinda got glossed over. Ugh I'm probably just demonstrating that I didn't follow it as much as I should have, but there were so many things just left unanswered
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Aug 6, 2020 23:25
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:We don't actually see what adult charlotte/future elizabeth did with baby charlotte when they kidnapped her? Went back and gave her to Tannhaus
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Aug 7, 2020 00:41
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I really enjoyed it but suddenly inserting a third world and ctrl-alt-deleting it within a matter of just a small number of episodes at the end was a disappointing way to end it. Too many open ends. We don't actually see what adult charlotte/future elizabeth did with baby charlotte when they kidnapped her? It seemed to only serve to give Hanno a motivation to appear in the main story as he did in the first two seasons. That's just one example. Too many characters left to dangle, or not given satisfying ends, like Ulrich or Hanno, or even the cross-world son. Just... ctrl-alt-deus machina. I also don't feel they ever explained or went over the time travel shenanigans right at the start, with the burnt eye kids and the small room in the basement. What were those contraptions? Failed initial attempts at time travel? But why, when Hanno already knew there were working devices under the church? kinda got glossed over. They did show them giving baby Charlotte to Tannhaus after his son/daughter in law and granddaughter went off the bridge e;fb
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Aug 7, 2020 00:42
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I don't think they showed it, did they? Just Charlotte and Elizabeth stealing the baby, and earlier Tannhaus telling young Charlotte that two women showed up with her on his doorstep. One thing that bugged me was that we got no acknowledgment of either Bartosz or Hanno/Noah taking on the last name Tauber, even though it's simple enough to figure out by yourself - to not raise unwanted questions once Tiedemans show up in Winden. But it does feel like something they would've addressed if they'd had more time for that bit of story. edit: lol, Tauber translates as "deaf?" davidspackage fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Aug 7, 2020 |
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Aug 7, 2020 06:02
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Escobarbarian posted:Went back and gave her to Tannhaus I don't know how I missed that 
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Aug 7, 2020 12:17
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I don't know how I missed that You may have blinked at that moment, it's easy to miss things in this show.
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Aug 7, 2020 12:28
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In the last week I began watching this and only now finished this evening, my thoughts are as follows. God drat. What a wonderful world.
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Aug 8, 2020 02:26
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I also don't feel they ever explained or went over the time travel shenanigans right at the start, with the burnt eye kids and the small room in the basement. What were those contraptions? Failed initial attempts at time travel? But why, when Hanno already knew there were working devices under the church? kinda got glossed over. I think this came up earlier in the thread, but they did briefly explain that each iteration of the devices led to creating more advanced devices. Even when they create new ones, they still have to create the old ones that led to them because it's part of the cycle. If you look at each one there are also visual cues on each device, like the black and white counters and the port for the cesium isotope.
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Aug 8, 2020 19:45
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I found my enjoyment of this show inversely proportional to how much I tried to keep track of what the gently caress was going on Season 2 was the best I think, plenty of time travel shenanigans to introduce mystery and intrigue but mainly to set up complex and profound emotional moments with the absolutely fantastic cast and soundtrack I don't think it's necessary to try to understand the myriad permutations and ramifications introduced by Season 3 to 'get' the point of it but I also respect anyone trying to make it all make sense, while equally respecting the writers for having a strong emotional core to the story carrying everything along with it
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Aug 18, 2020 23:32
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Does the show tell us whether Worlds A & B were always linked in a mobius strip? When the origin world split did the entire mobius loop pop into existence all at once? Or were they separate worlds and Eva used the glitch to link them at some point? How did they even go back to the origin world? I thought it was 100% destroyed. Also, did anyone else think alt-Alexander showing alt-Charlotte the barrels and then opening them made no sense at all? In World A, the investigator had a personal vendetta against Alexander for using his dead brother's name, so he wanted to investigate everything and anything to nail him, leading him to the barrels. In World B alt-Charlotte had only a possible lead that the missing kids could have ran through the underground cavern at the power plants. In fact, she never even asked to see the barrels; Alexander is the one who calls her. I cannot figure out why he would do such a thing. Is there any reason at all for Alt-Alexander to have the desire to show Charlotte these barrels of nuclear waste he's about to bury, much less open one? What his motivation for doing so? Megasabin fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 16:57
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Hannah made a request of him.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:44
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thumper57 posted:Hannah made a request of him. Hannah made a request to ruin Charolette. What was he gonna do? Wouldn’t showing her the barrels be ruining himself and the power plant? Unless he was gonna kill her and stuff her in the barrel?
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Aug 19, 2020 22:03
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He was coming clean. Unlike the original Alexander, he prevented himself from being blackmailed by simply confessing to his crimes so that nothing could be held over him.
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Aug 20, 2020 01:41
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Anonymous Zebra posted:He was coming clean. Unlike the original Alexander, he prevented himself from being blackmailed by simply confessing to his crimes so that nothing could be held over him. That seems like weak writing to me. He was being blackmailed about his past, not about his storage of nuclear waste. Charlotte is a regular police officer, not ne environmental protection agency officer. Why would she care about nuclear waste that has been hidden for 30+ years. If he wanted to be free from blackmail, he would tell her about his past. Also why would he literally need to show her the inside of a barrel? She has no expertise in nuclear science. Even if she did, who needs to literally see nuclear waste? This just seems like contrived reason for the alternate universe to have the nuclear accident.
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Aug 20, 2020 14:31
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At the time of watching I figured he was trying to kill her, but that still wouldn't make any sense.
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Aug 20, 2020 16:03
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Megasabin posted:Does the show tell us whether Worlds A & B were always linked in a mobius strip? When the origin world split did the entire mobius loop pop into existence all at once? Or were they separate worlds and Eva used the glitch to link them at some point? I've read up a bunch about this and even rewatched most of the series. From what I've gathered, here's how the whole thing works: Origin Tannhaus's family dying is still a fixed point in time, but it occurs before the first iteration of the cycle. Everything happens because of the machine, but it doesn't really "pop into existence all at once"; there's still a linear sequence of events that has to occur to create the family knot: A-Jonas & B-Martha have to have a child (The Unknown), which has to grow up to have children with both A-Agnes AND B-Agnes, whose descendents eventually create Jonas and Martha in a causal loop. It helps if you think about the A & B worlds as two halves of one big repeating cycle rather than parallel universes, because they caused each other's existences: From a linear perspective, Tannhaus turning on the machine spawns Adam's world, which he manipulates to unmake his own existence, believing his sacrifice will save everyone he loves. But unmaking himself spawns Eva's world (a world without Jonas), which Eva manipulates to remake Adam's world, ensuring that Jonas does exist so their child will live. Each half of the cycle infiltrates and interferes with each other for many, many cycles, unmaking and remaking Adam using various time travel tech. Adam's half of the cycle has the briefcase, but people can only travel in 33 year increments with it. Eva's half has the sphere, which allows people to travel to ANY point in the cycle, including Adam's half. BUT, every time the cycle repeats, there's something slightly different: Old Claudia teaches her younger self everything she knows, so that knowledge increases with each iteration because she learns more each time. She knows she needs to manipulate events to preserve both halves of the cycle for several iterations, until she can gradually gain enough knowledge to change things. This eventually leads her to the key piece of information: Time freezes for a split-second during the apocalypse, which if used in conjunction with the sphere, can break outside of time and create a 'bridge' back to the Origin. So it technically was never an infinite loop; something changed each cycle, so it was inevitable that Claudia would eventually figure out how to break it.
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Aug 21, 2020 05:14
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emTme3 fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Aug 21, 2020 08:44
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The scars show which universe the characters are currently in.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:49
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Justin Credible posted:The scars show which universe the characters are currently in. Not just the scar, houses, everything is reversed, they flipped the film in Universe B.
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Aug 28, 2020 03:42
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It's exemplified by the shelter's door, which opens to the left in Adam's world, to the right in Eva's world but to the back in Tannhaus' world, and the bus stop, which is respectively at the left, right and back sides of the intersection. The end montage of season 3 episode 6 is a good place to see some of those. Chev fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Aug 29, 2020 |
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Aug 29, 2020 12:34
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I just started episode one of the first season and I cannot tell these germans apart from one another. Is that racist of me?
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Sep 6, 2020 19:41
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