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eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Fister Roboto posted:

I don't think he's smart enough to intentionally troll.

Trump too stupid to be mean to a child? Have you ever seen Don Jr. or Eric?

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Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

i am not sure if its dickhead sarcasm or genuine or brain bleeding. like holy poo poo. i am pretty sure its sarcasm but jesus.

Rosalind
Apr 30, 2013

When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change.

So if they move for impeachment in the House, the Trump admin just stonewalls them on all subpoenas, the Supreme Court rules 5-4 that actually the House power to impeach does not give them special investigative powers and that power belongs to the Senate for the trial, Mitch stages a show trial with no real evidence at all, and at the end Trump plays victim and says look how unfair they were to me and I'm still in office therefore I'm innocent which corporate media parrots for weeks. Is that what's probably going to happen?

Paradoxish
Dec 19, 2003

Will you stop going crazy in there?

Haha look at this 16-year old kid literally begging for her future! Hilarious!

Edit- oh my god it's clearly sarcasm you all are letting demented nazi grandpa embarrass the hell out of you right now

Flesh Forge
Jan 31, 2011

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG

eke out posted:

it's sarcasm, he's posting it because all his timeline is chuds laughing at her for caring (and this is a Scavino tweet, obviously)

he's also saying climate change is nbd, nothing to worry about everybody she's just mad about trump winggashihsghsighgghgh *sound of brain fluids gurgling*

Psychepath
Apr 30, 2003
He's mocking a child on the spectrum who wants a better future but he's loving loving destroying the planet right now, despite having a child on the spectrum himself. One of his most disgusting tweets yet.

He isn't sincere. Don't even think that for a second.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Rosalind posted:

So if they move for impeachment in the House, the Trump admin just stonewalls them on all subpoenas, the Supreme Court rules 5-4 that actually the House power to impeach does not give them special investigative powers and that power belongs to the Senate for the trial, Mitch stages a show trial with no real evidence at all, and at the end Trump plays victim and says look how unfair they were to me and I'm still in office therefore I'm innocent which corporate media parrots for weeks. Is that what's probably going to happen?

no.

the house is the grand jury, they have nearly unlimited investigative powers and an open mandate to determine if impeachable crimes have been committed and whether to bring charges. the senate is the jury, they do not investigate.

eke out fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Sep 24, 2019

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

Flesh Forge posted:

he's also saying climate change is nbd, nothing to worry about everybody she's just mad about trump winggashihsghsighgghgh *sound of brain fluids gurgling*
This, but also the dismissal is expressed in conventionally innocuous terms, so when called on it they can calmhitler on it--how can you possibly object to me saying such an innocent thing, maybe it's you that has a problem, and so on.

Zoph
Sep 12, 2005

Donald Trump loving sucks, drat

Solaris 2.0
May 14, 2008

He’s being sarcastic because he is a hateful soulless piece of poo poo just like his supporters and and the entire Republican party.

If today’s protests gave me anything, it’s hope that between the climate crises, guns, lack of access to healthcare, and ever increasing debt the youth of our nation, of the world have had enough. They are not laughing, they are pissed.

A loving reckoning is coming, and it will be lead by our vengeful youth.

Rosalind
Apr 30, 2013

When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change.

eke out posted:

no.

the house is the grand jury, they have nearly unlimited investigative powers and an open mandate to determine if impeachable crimes have been committed and whether to bring charges. the senate is the jury, they do not investigate.

But what do you think is gonna happen when Trump ignores the house's subpoenas and it goes before the Supreme Court? Do you think, regardless of any and all precedent or even what is written in the Constitution, that they're going to rule against Trump on this? If you do, you are much more optimistic than I am at this point.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf
https://twitter.com/YahooNews/status/1176166823068352513

:lol:

Zoph
Sep 12, 2005

Rosalind posted:

But what do you think is gonna happen when Trump ignores the house's subpoenas and it goes before the Supreme Court? Do you think, regardless of any and all precedent or even what is written in the Constitution, that they're going to rule against Trump on this? If you do, you are much more optimistic than I am at this point.

Usually the Court can see beyond the horizon of a single lovely President. Usually.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Rosalind posted:

But what do you think is gonna happen when Trump ignores the house's subpoenas and it goes before the Supreme Court? Do you think, regardless of any and all precedent or even what is written in the Constitution, that they're going to rule against Trump on this? If you do, you are much more optimistic than I am at this point.

that's not really how like, the law works, for a variety of discrete reasons (not least of which that you seem to have no idea what john roberts thinks)

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

Rosalind posted:

But what do you think is gonna happen when Trump ignores the house's subpoenas and it goes before the Supreme Court? Do you think, regardless of any and all precedent or even what is written in the Constitution, that they're going to rule against Trump on this? If you do, you are much more optimistic than I am at this point.
Your position is that the Roberts Court is going to hold that US v. Nixon was wrongly decided?

TulliusCicero
Jul 29, 2017




That's uh...

Huh

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Solaris 2.0 posted:

He’s being sarcastic because he is a hateful soulless piece of poo poo just like his supporters and and the entire Republican party.

If today’s protests gave me anything, it’s hope that between the climate crises, guns, lack of access to healthcare, and ever increasing debt the youth of our nation, of the world have had enough. They are not laughing, they are pissed.

A loving reckoning is coming, and it will be lead by our vengeful youth.

honestly, its just made me hate the conservatives. like i genuinely kinda find it hard to view these assholes as people some days. like my various frogs and lizards have more empathy than these fucks and they just eat living things and poo poo.


i mean. i don't disagree.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

SubG posted:

Your position is that the Roberts Court is going to hold that US v. Nixon was wrongly decided?

some of the judges might but i don't think roberts would, he is ghoul but that would make him about as bad in the history books as Roger B. Taney.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



SubG posted:

Your position is that the Roberts Court is going to hold that US v. Nixon was wrongly decided?

lol yeah, they wouldn't even get gorsuch on board if this ever went to the supreme court over open defiance of subpoenas with no valid reason (which, spoiler alert, it wouldn't ever get there). poo poo, kav would probably join roberts and the libs it's such a no-brainer (which is why they will never rule on it, beyond denying cert)

though Thomas's dissent from the denial of cert about how impeachment is only allowed for [insane historical reason zero of his colleagues join him on] might be fun

Otteration
Jan 4, 2014

I CAN'T SAY PRESIDENT DONALD JOHN TRUMP'S NAME BECAUSE HE'S LIKE THAT GUY FROM HARRY POTTER AND I'M AFRAID I'LL SUMMON HIM. DONALD JOHN TRUMP. YOUR FAVORITE PRESIDENT.
OUR 47TH PRESIDENT AFTER THE ONE WHO SHOWERS WITH HIS DAUGHTER DIES
Grimey Drawer

Solaris 2.0 posted:

He’s being sarcastic because he is a hateful soulless piece of poo poo just like his supporters and and the entire Republican party.

If today’s protests gave me anything, it’s hope that between the climate crises, guns, lack of access to healthcare, and ever increasing debt the youth of our nation, of the world have had enough. They are not laughing, they are pissed.

A loving reckoning is coming, and it will be lead by our vengeful youth.

Yep, and the rest of us too.

Rosalind
Apr 30, 2013

When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change.

SubG posted:

Your position is that the Roberts Court is going to hold that US v. Nixon was wrongly decided?

Zophar posted:

Usually the Court can see beyond the horizon of a single lovely President. Usually.


eke out posted:

that's not really how like, the law works, for a variety of discrete reasons not least of which you seem to have no idea what john roberts thinks

My position is that this has been a hellish, scary 2 1/2 years in which a great many of the things I took for granted, especially the rule of law, were routinely and shamelessly violated. I thought I had a better than average understanding of how our political, judicial, and legal systems worked to prevent the atrocities of the current administration, but every day I learn more and more that what I thought about America, its people, and our government is wrong and horrible.

I'm absolutely for impeachment but I'm just so afraid and hopelessly pessimistic about the future these days that it's hard to see a happy ending.

Flesh Forge
Jan 31, 2011

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG

TulliusCicero posted:

That's uh...

Huh

it's already below the fold

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

eke out posted:

lol yeah, they wouldn't even get gorsuch on board if this ever went to the supreme court over open defiance of subpoenas with no valid reason (which, spoiler alert, it wouldn't ever get there). poo poo, kav would probably join roberts and the libs it's such a no-brainer (which is why they will never rule on it, beyond denying cert)

though Thomas's dissent from the denial of cert about how impeachment is only allowed for [insane historical reason zero of his colleagues join him on] might be fun

I'm willing to :toxx: on the Supreme Court not overturning US v Nixon, and if they do, I'll have bigger poo poo to worry about than :10bux:

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Rosalind posted:

My position is that this has been a hellish, scary 2 1/2 years in which a great many of the things I took for granted, especially the rule of law, were routinely and shamelessly violated. I thought I had a better than average understanding of how our political, judicial, and legal systems worked to prevent the atrocities of the current administration, but every day I learn more and more that what I thought about America, its people, and our government is wrong and horrible.

I'm absolutely for impeachment but I'm just so afraid and hopelessly pessimistic about the future these days that it's hard to see a happy ending.

i get it, i don't mean to be too flip here. it's just, the way the supreme court will gently caress us is not going to be massive openly-political decisions about how the purge is legal for trump alone and he can do anything

they're loving us constantly in a thousand different other ways that are harder to quantify that have less political blowback for them and are more sustainable in the long run

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.
trump just retweeted this.

https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1176194996116086784

also this dumb poo poo.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1176347891914461184

Tibalt
May 14, 2017

What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee

While we're Nothing Matters an impeachment inquiry, I'd like to mention that McConnell can't prevent the impeachment trial and won't be able to control the trial as Roberts will be presiding.

Otteration
Jan 4, 2014

I CAN'T SAY PRESIDENT DONALD JOHN TRUMP'S NAME BECAUSE HE'S LIKE THAT GUY FROM HARRY POTTER AND I'M AFRAID I'LL SUMMON HIM. DONALD JOHN TRUMP. YOUR FAVORITE PRESIDENT.
OUR 47TH PRESIDENT AFTER THE ONE WHO SHOWERS WITH HIS DAUGHTER DIES
Grimey Drawer

Trump outrageously claims Republicans would get 'electric chair' if they did what he wrongly claims Biden did

L O L

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Tibalt posted:

While we're Nothing Matters an impeachment inquiry, I'd like to mention that McConnell can't prevent the impeachment trial and won't be able to control the trial as Roberts will be presiding.

sorry but the constitution doesn't define what "presides" means (it means whatever the senate wants it to mean, seriously) and your assumption that McConnell, with complete control over the calendar, couldn't Garland it is premature

this is why democratic strategy on impeachment has to consider this and factor in the real possibility the Senate never does jackshit about it. gotta get everything in the open with months and months of hearings

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Otteration posted:

So it's better that it is promising taxpayer money?


How about we just have fun with the revolution and put and end to all the bullshit right now, rather than excusing it via past violations?

Legally, yes, it is better that it's promising taxpayer money. Because that's basically the purpose of foreign aid - to use taxpayer money as leverage to influence other countries to cave to the current government's policy objectives. There's no law saying that can't be done,

Because it looks really loving dumb to do poo poo like insist that standard foreign-policy behaviors are suddenly "unprecedented". There's plenty of legit stuff to get pissed at Trump about, but liberals always focus on the dumbest and most minor poo poo.

theflyingorc
Jun 28, 2008

ANY GOOD OPINIONS THIS POSTER CLAIMS TO HAVE ARE JUST PROOF THAT BULLYING WORKS
Young Orc

Main Paineframe posted:

Legally, yes, it is better that it's promising taxpayer money. Because that's basically the purpose of foreign aid - to use taxpayer money as leverage to influence other countries to cave to the current government's policy objectives. There's no law saying that can't be done,

Because it looks really loving dumb to do poo poo like insist that standard foreign-policy behaviors are suddenly "unprecedented". There's plenty of legit stuff to get pissed at Trump about, but liberals always focus on the dumbest and most minor poo poo.

He was doing it to get a foreign country to help his next election, can you please stop saying dumb things

Star Man
Jun 1, 2008

There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow
I made a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUIPfBi-6c

Otteration
Jan 4, 2014

I CAN'T SAY PRESIDENT DONALD JOHN TRUMP'S NAME BECAUSE HE'S LIKE THAT GUY FROM HARRY POTTER AND I'M AFRAID I'LL SUMMON HIM. DONALD JOHN TRUMP. YOUR FAVORITE PRESIDENT.
OUR 47TH PRESIDENT AFTER THE ONE WHO SHOWERS WITH HIS DAUGHTER DIES
Grimey Drawer

Main Paineframe posted:

Legally, yes, it is better that it's promising taxpayer money. Because that's basically the purpose of foreign aid - to use taxpayer money as leverage to influence other countries to cave to the current government's policy objectives. There's no law saying that can't be done,

Because it looks really loving dumb to do poo poo like insist that standard foreign-policy behaviors are suddenly "unprecedented". There's plenty of legit stuff to get pissed at Trump about, but liberals always focus on the dumbest and most minor poo poo.

What, then, shall we be pissed at Trump about?

squirrelzipper
Nov 2, 2011

Solaris 2.0 posted:

He’s being sarcastic because he is a hateful soulless piece of poo poo just like his supporters and and the entire Republican party.

If today’s protests gave me anything, it’s hope that between the climate crises, guns, lack of access to healthcare, and ever increasing debt the youth of our nation, of the world have had enough. They are not laughing, they are pissed.

A loving reckoning is coming, and it will be lead by our vengeful youth.

Yeah me too dude. I’m ashamed of it but the reality is we have to hope that youth of the world can see through these evil fuckers cause they’re everywhere and start to make their anger felt. We’ve hosed this sooo badly.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Main Paineframe posted:

Legally, yes, it is better that it's promising taxpayer money. Because that's basically the purpose of foreign aid - to use taxpayer money as leverage to influence other countries to cave to the current government's policy objectives. There's no law saying that can't be done,

Because it looks really loving dumb to do poo poo like insist that standard foreign-policy behaviors are suddenly "unprecedented". There's plenty of legit stuff to get pissed at Trump about, but liberals always focus on the dumbest and most minor poo poo.

are you like, literally michael tracey or something?

i don't know what you think you're contributing by declaring that anyone who cares about this topic, which you plainly know nothing more about than anyone else, is just a dumb lib

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Wow, someone actually drew an equivalence between pressuring someone to fire a corrupt prosecutor and pressuring then to investigate their political enemies. (The former of which, BTW, has direct relation to efficacy of aid).

Flesh Forge
Jan 31, 2011

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG

theflyingorc posted:

He was doing it to get a foreign country to help his next election, can you please stop saying dumb things

Well I mean if somebody wants to be technical about it, this is not unprecedented in that Nixon bombed the gently caress out of Cambodia explicitly to help his election prospects.

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018

by Fluffdaddy
it would be great if trump gets damaged by trying to undercut biden only for biden to lose the primary

Zoph
Sep 12, 2005

https://twitter.com/11thHour/status/1176346532502822912?s=19

Flesh Forge
Jan 31, 2011

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG

luxury handset posted:

it would be great if trump gets damaged by trying to undercut biden only for biden to lose the primary

This is the outcome I'm hoping for yeah

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Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010
Ultra Carp
MP is right in that focusing on whether Trump violated any specific laws or statures is vastly missing the greater picture, in that Trump has grossly abused the powers of his office for personal gain. Politico of all places had a good article on this:

quote:

Reports that President Donald Trump pressured Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate the son of Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden has prompted a flurry of speculation Trump, by withholding military aid, has committed bribery or extortion.

This is wrong and even counterproductive to efforts to hold Trump accountable.

If what Trump is accused of doing is true, it is a kind of corrupt conduct that the criminal system is not equipped to handle. Labeling his behavior with criminal terms such as bribery and extortion not only misunderstands the statutory language, it gives Trump and his supporters ammunition with which to defend themselves, making impeachment—the proper constitutional remedy for presidential corruption—harder to achieve.

It’s easy to see why Trump’s alleged conduct has generated outrage and why lay people have rushed to describe it as categorically criminal. Using presidential power to withhold aid to a nation that was recently invaded by Russia unless its investigates your political rival sounds like the definition of a criminal quid pro quo. The possibility that Trump pressured another nation to interfere in the next presidential election on his behalf—not long after the completion of a multiyear investigation into interference in the 2016 presidential election by Russia on his behalf—is jaw-dropping.

But the impulse to label this as a potential crime, as many respected former prosecutors and legal analysts have done, is flawed legally and even strategically. Even if true, this is not a case that would end up in a criminal proceeding even if Trump were no longer in office.

Let’s look at the actual law. Even if Trump explicitly offered $250 million in military aid to Ukraine in exchange for an investigation of Biden’s son, that wouldn’t fit the federal bribery statute, which prohibits public officials from taking or soliciting bribes. In this case, Trump would be “bribing” the Ukrainians, who are not “public officials” for purposes of the statute.

The argument would have to be that Trump is soliciting a bribe in exchange for granting foreign aid to the Ukraine, with the investigation of Biden’s son being the thing of value demanded in exchange for granting the aid. While the statute defines “anything of value” very broadly, it is odd to think of a foreign government launching an investigation as “payment” of a bribe. The investigation itself would be an official governmental act and the result of the investigation would be uncertain. What if the investigation turned up no wrongdoing by either Hunter Biden or his father? Would that still be a thing of value?

Besides, presidents push foreign governments to take official acts all the time. The Constitution contemplates that the president will interact with foreign leaders and use his or her power to persuade them to do things that help the United States. What is abhorrent about the alleged conduct here is not that Trump is pushing a foreign government to do something, but rather that he might have used his presidential power to get a foreign government to help him win the next election.

This is self-serving and corrupt, but it is difficult to think of this alleged activity as “extortion.” It is true that there are multiple federal statutes that make extortion a crime, but extortion is defined as “the extraction of anything of value from another person by threatening or placing that person in fear of injury to any person or kidnapping of any person.”

It is hard to construe the alleged conduct as a “threat” against Ukraine in the manner contemplated by the extortion statute. Presidents threaten to withhold aid, send troops, or impose sanctions against foreign governments. I have trouble believing that a federal judge would permit an indictment to move forward against a president for “extorting” a foreign government through his or her official duties as president.

This is not to say there aren’t crimes on the books that better match what Trump is alleged to have done. For instance, it is a campaign finance crime to knowingly and willfully solicit a campaign contribution from a foreign national. Given that Biden could be Trump’s next political opponent, an argument can be made that the Ukrainian investigation would be an in-kind contribution—a “thing of value,” as defined by the statute—to Trump’s campaign. The bribery of a foreign official, such as the Ukrainian president, can also be a criminal violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

But both of these statutes contain at least some of the problems presented by the bribery and extortion statutes. Courts won’t send presidents to prison for cajoling foreign governments to do things, even if that involves horse trading an official act by our government in exchange for an official act by someone else’s.

What Trump is alleged to have done is not a garden variety crime; it’s worse. It involved misusing $250 million in aid appropriated by Congress for his benefit—the kind of gross misconduct that easily clears the bar of high crimes and misdemeanors set by the Constitution when impeaching a president. Which means the best way to hold Trump accountable for that misconduct isn’t a criminal trial; it’s for Congress to impeach him.

Pursuing criminal cases that won’t stand legal scrutiny, or arguing that Trump has violated a criminal statute, risks undermining that goal.

First, it gives the false impression that this is something the criminal justice system can deal with. But the criminal system is not built to handle misconduct by a president who is acting corruptly through the use of his or her immense constitutional powers in this manner.

Second, it suggests that if critics can point out that it is not really bribery or extortion, then it is not a huge problem, which is not true. This is already happening, as allies of the president assert that there was no explicit quid pro quo.

Third, it may give the public a false impression about what happened. Impeachment in many respects is a political act, and that means Congress needs public support to pursue it. Anything that confuses or fails to convince the public is therefore counterproductive.

Finally, it understates the magnitude of the alleged misconduct. Labeling Trump’s alleged conduct as “bribery” or “extortion” cheapens what is alleged to have occurred and does not capture what makes it wrongful. It’s not a crime—it’s a breach of the president’s duty to not use the powers of the presidency to benefit himself. And he invited a foreign nation to influence the 2020 presidential election on the heels of a nearly three-year investigation that proved Russia had tried to influence the 2016 presidential election.

No one should expect law enforcement to act if our elected representatives are unwilling to do so.

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