|
Fivemarks posted:SM Stirling is a piece of poo poo, not just for the Draka, but also for Guns of the South, which runs on Lost Cause myths that personally offend me. Guns of the South was Turteldove, who's not a Lost Causer
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2022 04:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 17:34 |
|
|
Epicurius posted:Guns of the South was Turteldove, who's not a Lost Causer If your book relies on the "kindly General Lee" myth, then you're a lost causer, even if you don't realize it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2022 06:31
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:I went down an SM Stirling rabbithole while trying to get ready for looking at Drake's writings, and, uh Guns of the South was Turtledove.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2022 06:48
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:If your book relies on the "kindly General Lee" myth, then you're a lost causer, even if you don't realize it. His other "South wins the Civil War" series ends with US troops kickimg in the gates of Confederate concemtration camps while Confederate cities vanish in nuclear fire. He is very much not a Lost Causer.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2022 18:31
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:If your book relies on the "kindly General Lee" myth, then you're a lost causer, even if you don't realize it. Over the course of the book, Lee comes to learn that the future views the Confederacy, its values, and its racism, repulsive, and the only people who still consider them heroic are racist cranks like the AWB, and the book ends with a wiser Lee, having realized that, coming around to support and push through abolition in the hope to start to change those values.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2022 18:49
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:Over the course of the book, Lee comes to learn that the future views the Confederacy, its values, and its racism, repulsive, and the only people who still consider them heroic are racist cranks like the AWB, and the book ends with a wiser Lee, having realized that, coming around to support and push through abolition in the hope to start to change those values. Yeah, except that the actual historical Lee is much more likely to have viewed our future as degenerate, to be prevented at all costs, rather than enlightened, able to pass accurate judgement on him. Relevant information here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2022 21:34
|
|
|
Anshu posted:Yeah, except that the actual historical Lee is much more likely to have viewed our future as degenerate, to be prevented at all costs, rather than enlightened, able to pass accurate judgement on him. Relevant information here. Maybe, but it's fiction. He's not trying to portray Lee accurately. I mean, this is a book where South African terrorists from the future give the Confederacy AK-47s. And part of the message he's trying to get across is that the Confederacy was terrible and unsustainable. One of the themes of the book is that people can come to overcome their prejudices and work to build a better future. That's why you have Lee and even to a lesser extent Forrest eventually realizing slavery is wrong and turning against the AWB, and why Nate is able to challenge his white supremacy (and also marry Mollie even though he knows she's a former prostitute), and why Henry decides he's going to staff a farm with just free labor and make it successful. You don't necessarily have to agree with that message, and you might think Lee was irredeemable, but it's still not a Lost Cause book. It's a redemption narrative.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2022 00:08
|
|
|
Hm. That argument is similar to things I've said defending Eric Flint's characterization of Gustav II Adolf in the Ring of Fire series – defending it to you in fact, if my memory does not deceive me. I personally will concede the point, at least insofar as, not having read Guns of the South, I don't know enough to dispute your description.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2022 01:07
|
|
|
drat it I thought there was going to be more SM Stirling chat in here because his Draka stories are really "wtf where you thinking Stirling" but Turtledove chat is cool too. Don't really have any views on Harry Turtledove other than going mentally pinball machine <tilt> at how many stories and novels he's gotten published in the past 40 yrs. The sheer quantity of Turtledoves work is the major reason I never got into reading Turtledove seriously.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2022 01:32
|
|
|
Anshu posted:Hm. That argument is similar to things I've said defending Eric Flint's characterization of Gustav II Adolf in the Ring of Fire series – defending it to you in fact, if my memory does not deceive me. I personally will concede the point, at least insofar as, not having read Guns of the South, I don't know enough to dispute your description. It's possible, I guess. I think I've only posted once in the thread about the Ring of Fire series and I don't really remember our conversation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2022 01:34
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:It's possible, I guess. I think I've only posted once in the thread about the Ring of Fire series and I don't really remember our conversation. The conversation took place in one of the mil-hist threads, not this one.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2022 18:27
|
|
|
Anshu posted:The conversation took place in one of the mil-hist threads, not this one. I don't remember, but I'll take your word for it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2022 03:13
|
|
|
quantumfoam posted:drat it I thought there was going to be more SM Stirling chat in here because his Draka stories are really "wtf where you thinking Stirling" but Turtledove chat is cool too. My recollection is that he started out with some cool and unusual ideas but the latter 3/4 of Turtledove’s output has been lifting the plot beats of *thing in history* and applying them to *other thing in history*
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2022 16:06
|
|
|
I can never decide if The Good, The Bad, The Ugly (1966) or The Professionals (1966) is the superior Western movie set during a civil war. Both movies have their strong points; anyone have thoughts on the subject. actual mil-scifi discussion: Mack Reynold's "Potential Enemy" is extremely Cold War era mil-scifi fiction.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
GD_American posted:Guns of the South was Turtledove. Stirling did actually write _the charge of Lee’s brigade_, in which the USA stayed part of the British colonies and fought in the Crimea.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2022 21:42
|
|
|
In some alternate universe, Jim Baen never died and I'm curious how that universe's version of Baen Books turned out. Would it have gone full chud, would amazon have bought baen books to kill their groundbreaking ebook system, would authors like David Weber and Harry Turtledove and SM Stirling have had actual editors. Sort of want to dive into the back catalog of Avalon Hill's THE GENERAL newsletter magazine to collect up all the articles Gary Gygax submitted there before he found infinite fame with Dungeons & Dragons.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2022 22:25
|
|
|
quantumfoam posted:Would it have gone full chud Baen died in '06, and that Ringo/Kratman Nazi novel came out in '05.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2022 22:47
|
|
|
Khizan posted:Baen died in '06, and that Ringo/Kratman Nazi novel came out in '05. ouch, misremembered Jim Baen as dying earlier. John Ringo & Tom Kratman, I'd describe them as Niven & Pournelle: the Next Generation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2022 23:17
|
|
|
Is Ringo still churning out those terrible zombie books?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2022 23:24
|
|
|
I've started on "The General" series. My god, its like Belisarius, but not as good and edgier and more grimdark. Is the only reason Drake worked on this so that he could show Stirling how to write villains who lose?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2022 22:59
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:I've started on "The General" series. My god, its like Belisarius, but not as good and edgier and more grimdark. Is the only reason Drake worked on this so that he could show Stirling how to write villains who lose? I think that's the series Drake was talking about.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2022 23:36
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:I've started on "The General" series. My god, its like Belisarius, but not as good and edgier and more grimdark. Is the only reason Drake worked on this so that he could show Stirling how to write villains who lose? If you don't make it the whole way through definitely read "The Chosen", which is where Drake takes on The Draka storyline.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2022 08:37
|
|
|
Humbug Scoolbus posted:I think that's the series Drake was talking about. Deptfordx posted:If you don't make it the whole way through definitely read "The Chosen", which is where Drake takes on The Draka storyline. The Chosen is where David Drake made that public comment about trying to teach (SM) Stirling how to write a book in which the bad guys *lose*." Maybe that is the entire reason David Drake co-wrote stories with people. Not sure how successful Drake's remediation efforts were in the long run.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2022 15:44
|
|
|
I had an idea for a mil-scifi book inspired heavily by the early naval history of the United States, focusing on a fledgling union of colonies who recently won independence from their earth national masters forced to fight what is effectively a CIA Black Op pirate nation gone rogue. Everyone I tried to bounce the idea off of told me that it was a bad idea and I shouldn't even try to write it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 13:28
|
|
|
For really bad mil scifi, there is a movie on Netflix now called 'Interceptor' that is written and directed by Matthew Reilly...yes, that Matthew 'I will use all the exclamation points' Reilly; author of Seven Deadly Wonders, the Shane Scofield series and of course The Great Zoo of China. It is a special film in the meaning that there is more wrong in the first five minutes, than in an entire Asylum film.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 15:15
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:I had an idea for a mil-scifi book inspired heavily by the early naval history of the United States, focusing on a fledgling union of colonies who recently won independence from their earth national masters forced to fight what is effectively a CIA Black Op pirate nation gone rogue. Wrong kind of anti government sentiment op
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:I had an idea for a mil-scifi book inspired heavily by the early naval history of the United States, focusing on a fledgling union of colonies who recently won independence from their earth national masters forced to fight what is effectively a CIA Black Op pirate nation gone rogue. That idea sounds like John Ringo copying John Scalzi's extension-homage of Robert Heinlien's Starship Troopers. Or more accurately after 60 seconds of thought, the published in the 1980's "libertarianism hurrah hurrah" mil-scifi Revolution From Rosinante series which is just that idea you gave plus gobs and gobs of libertarianism. actual encouragement for your idea: If you're still not discouraged by the negative feedback, take a peak at Paul McAuley's Quiet War mil-scifi series for some ideas; although I hate every single character in the Quiet War series; the scope & gene-modified biomes in it are definitely amazing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 16:09
|
|
|
you also need to include the token rogue intelligence agent because of course it's not the CIA that's bad it's the god drat politics!!! And also it needs to be a hot woman who maybe has sex with protagonist Lt. Col. Smoothbrain to sell well to your average mil sf reader
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 16:21
|
|
|
Humbug Scoolbus posted:For really bad mil scifi, there is a movie on Netflix now called 'Interceptor' that is written and directed by Matthew Reilly...yes, that Matthew 'I will use all the exclamation points' Reilly; author of Seven Deadly Wonders, the Shane Scofield series and of course The Great Zoo of China. It is a special film in the meaning that there is more wrong in the first five minutes, than in an entire Asylum film. Holy poo poo!!!
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 17:25
|
|
|
quantumfoam posted:That idea sounds like John Ringo copying John Scalzi's extension-homage of Robert Heinlien's Starship Troopers. ... Sure, but I'm not libertarian or a scumbag. If the bad guys are a CIA "Rogue Op", that's because the CIA is inherently evil., not that individuals are bad. I dunno, Maybe I should go for something far more generic, like not england fighting the not revolutionary French, with a starter book about how the Not!Romans are noble and honorable in their warcrimes and warmongering. It worked for Jay Allen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
you should write something more topical like the space rich and space Congress getting put against a brick wall while, idk, aliens invade because they got sold real estate futures
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2022 21:45
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:... Sure, but I'm not libertarian or a scumbag. If the bad guys are a CIA "Rogue Op", that's because the CIA is inherently evil., not that individuals are bad. I dunno, Maybe I should go for something far more generic, like not england fighting the not revolutionary French, with a starter book about how the Not!Romans are noble and honorable in their warcrimes and warmongering. It worked for Jay Allen. Next time you pitch that story idea, definitely include that clarifier about "If the bad guys are a CIA "Rogue Op", that's because the CIA is inherently evil", cause otherwise I had no loving clue what you were going with a "CIA Black Op pirate nation gone rogue" opponent. Is the opponent overtly the CIA, is it a pirate nation funded by the CIA, is the pirate nation being driven by a CIA agent actually going rogue, or "going rogue" a Mission Impossible disavowal meaning, etc. Personally, I'd change the conflict to being the fledging union of newly independent colonies having to share from the same resource pool*, and the low key conflicts and politicking each independent union colony engages in to get their fair share/more than their fair share versus the other union colonies while the Earth national masters are blundering around in the background. *by shared resource pool, I mean colonist workers, food supplies, light and heavy industrial manufactories, replacement parts for spaceships & computers, rare elements that do not exist in the colonies, self defense weaponry, militia, communication satellites or comm gear, etc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2022 01:31
|
|
|
someone wrote that and it's jack Campbell's lost fleet prequel series
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2022 10:58
|
|
|
Larry Parrish posted:someone wrote that and it's jack Campbell's lost fleet prequel series Aw poo poo, you're right.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2022 15:01
|
|
|
Just so people won't waste their time ever reading the Revolution From Rosinante series, the first Revolution from Rosinante book goes something like: -The United Nations pledged to build a new space station Rosinante/space colony by the Mars-Jupiter asteroid belt a decade ago, each UN member will contribute to the cost of the space colony. -The contract to build said new space is managed by a mega-corporation that specializes in mil-tech, high finance, and space construction. -A UN inspector that is also the series main character is inspecting the space station Rosinante construction to sign off on the final stage of UN funding. -The mega-corporation building the space station declares they need more money to finish the space station construction contract. -The main character who btw is a libertarian super-genius knows that the mega-corporation is lying, likes what he sees at space station Rosinante, and thinks he can finish the remaining work on the space station cheaper and faster than the mega-corporation. -Somewhere around this point women start constantly throwing themselves at the main character. Also the travel time to the space station Rosinante becomes nebulous; anything the main character wants to do or have sent from Earth happens near instantly because he thought that far ahead; while the people who oppose the main character (aka the bad guys) take the normal 3+ weeks to reach space station Rosinante from Earth orbit. -UN inspector main character travels back to Earth and uses a bunch of his embezzled money and paid lobbyists to edge out the mega-corporation/win the remaining construction on space station Rosinante. -Meanwhile the fully fascist United States deports around 4000 (mostly unmarried males) 1st & 2nd amendment protestors into space, these protestors are immediately redirected to the space station Rosinante. China meanwhile sends 3000 unwanted female citizens as "general laborers" as it's portion of the UN commitment to Rosinante space station. Shotgun marriages happen asap. -Main character quickly enacts all the libertarian dictator greats at space station Rosinante: captive labor pool, bootstraps being pulled up, a avaricious company store setup, forced 24/7/365 work schedules, stolen intellectual property, rigged stock buybacks in the main characters favor, etc. -Space station Rosinante is completed ahead of schedule & underbudget, the mega-corporation blocks the money due for completion of the space station, main character in response declares the station station Rosinante independent of the Earth and the UN. -The UN and the mega-corporation send an invasion force to retake the space station Rosinante which will take 3 weeks to arrive. The invasion force is stopped by the massively improved longer range space weapons and weapons platforms and armor that the people of space station Rosinante built from the stolen intellectual property. -Book ends with the main character thinking about enslaving, uh, freeing other space stations from Earthgov/UN mandate. tldr: Rosinante book 1 enacts the libertarian greatest hits on a deep space station called Rosinante while the universe bends itself around the main character, in a Honor Harrington "tails I win, heads you lose" style. The following books in the Rosinante series are the main character expanding his libertarian utopia vision to the rest of the solar system's space colonies, fighting vs political/ideological enemies that can't ever match him, out-thinking the UN & Earth based mega-corporations repeatedly, banging more women, and becoming more of a tinpot fascist dictator than he was in the first book.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 03:48
|
|
|
quantumfoam posted:Just so people won't waste their time ever reading the Revolution From Rosinante series, the first Revolution from Rosinante book goes something like: Um, you might be confusing this with another book. The forced labour thing does happen, but most of the above comes off as completely inaccurate. Also it's really good
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 07:06
|
|
|
cultureulterior posted:Um, you might be confusing this with another book. The forced labour thing does happen, but most of the above comes off as completely inaccurate. Cool, glad to hear an alternate take. I got really sour from reading Dean Ing's Rackham files earlier this week, and may have over-emphasized some stuff.in the RfR series. So what are the strong points in the Revolution From Rosinante series to you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 08:29
|
|
|
If you want libertarian pain, read almost anything by L.Neil Smith. 'Pallas' is a standout.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 20:24
|
|
|
I reread the book today to make sure I got this right, so here's some corrections of your review, hope you don't mind I should first make clear that this book isn't really milsf- only two people die of gunfire, and three people are assassinated off screen. quantumfoam posted:-The United Nations pledged to build a new space station Rosinante/space colony by the Mars-Jupiter asteroid belt a decade ago, each UN member will contribute to the cost of the space colony. It's not a UN project, each space colony is an investment, funded by different people- in this case, it's a joint effort between Scadiwa and Mitsui. Both of those are megacorps. quantumfoam posted:-A UN inspector that is also the series main character is inspecting the space station Rosinante construction to sign off on the final stage of UN funding. This doesn't happen at all. There is no UN inspector. There is a rather cool woman corporate executive, Mariam Yashon, who was just outmanoeuvred in corporate shenanigans at the Eufiscale Tellurbank (but who managed to obtain ownership of a really cool corporate AI, Shaskash) quantumfoam posted:-The mega-corporation building the space station declares they need more money to finish the space station construction contract. This also doesn't happen. The main character, CC Cantrell, is a project manager, who used to own a small construction company. Because of that, the company that owes him his fee as construction manager, pays him off with ownership of the space station. He really doesn't do anything libertarian in this book, and his primary desire is to sell the station and start construction on an orbital beanstalk. He can't really do that because there's a recession. quantumfoam posted:-Somewhere around this point women start constantly throwing themselves at the main character. The main character has sex with two women in the course of this book- one, a Christian missionary corrupted by the incredibly manipulative AI who is trying to manipulate everyone, and also his new korean secretary, also manipulated into it by the incredibly manipulative AI. quantumfoam posted:-UN inspector main character travels back to Earth and uses a bunch of his embezzled money and paid lobbyists to edge out the mega-corporation/win the remaining construction on space station Rosinante. There is no UN inspector, and none of the above happens. quantumfoam posted:-Meanwhile the fully fascist United States deports around 4000 (mostly unmarried males) 1st & 2nd amendment protestors into space, these protestors are immediately redirected to the space station Rosinante. China meanwhile sends 3000 unwanted female citizens as "general laborers" as it's portion of the UN commitment to Rosinante space station. Shotgun marriages happen asap. They're not 2nd amendment protesters. There's Hispanic/White ethnic strife in Texas in this retrofuture, and these are students on the losing side. The unwanted women are ethnic Koreans sent by a Japanese company due to racist policies within the (minority owner) Japanese government. This part is not well written even for its time, particularly for overusing the word "oriental", however both are sent for putatively rational reasons by their respective companies- in order to provide "colonists" for the new station, which is a requirement for a new loan to be extended to the respective companies. These are also not shotgun marriages, the men and women are matchmade by the incredibly manipulative AI. quantumfoam posted:-Main character quickly enacts all the libertarian dictator greats at space station Rosinante: captive labor pool, bootstraps being pulled up, a avaricious company store setup, forced 24/7/365 work schedules, stolen intellectual property, rigged stock buybacks in the main characters favor, etc. The main character, currently bankrupt, spends a large amount of time negotiating with the union of space workers that built the station, to whom he owes a lot of back pay, in order to make them whole, by granting the union part ownership of the station. By the end of the book, the union owns 40% of the station. quantumfoam posted:-Space station Rosinante is completed ahead of schedule & underbudget, the mega-corporation blocks the money due for completion of the space station, main character in response declares the station station Rosinante independent of the Earth and the UN. This also doesn't happen. The main character first does declare himself governor of the station, but the Texas legislature, as an example of their still-crazed politics, votes the station to be a "honorary county" Then, an anti-eugenics Christian fanatic within the NAU Security attempts to use the NAU Space Navy to move against the station, which needs genetic medical capabilities to have healthy children in a high-radiation environment. One of the fanatics attempts to nuke the gene lab. When this is published, this, among other things, including the ethnic strife and general fascism, triggers a civil war within the NAU. CC Cantrell is not involved at all with this. quantumfoam posted:-The UN and the mega-corporation send an invasion force to retake the space station Rosinante which will take 3 weeks to arrive. The invasion force is stopped by the massively improved longer range space weapons and weapons platforms and armor that the people of space station Rosinante built from the stolen intellectual property. The intellectual property wasn't stolen, as it was built (before the events of the book) under licence, from Mitsui, one of the previous station owners. This also impinges on one of the better parts of the book- the space ships in this book, (unlike almost any other ships in science fiction, but very much like real space ships, need cooling.) The station's sun (reflected sunlight) uses computer controlled mirrors, much like a modern DLP projector, and it's able to subtly threaten (it's never mentioned as a possibility) the single space cruiser from the NAU. That's a single space ship, not an invasion force, sent by the NAU, to capture the main character This also happens before the previous point, about the middle of the book. quantumfoam posted:-Book ends with the main character thinking about enslaving, uh, freeing other space stations from Earthgov/UN mandate. This also doesn't happen. The book ends with the main character swearing loyalty to the fascist NAU in return for becoming the legal governor of the station. cultureulterior fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Jun 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 00:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 17:34 |
|
|
cultureulterior posted:I reread the book today to make sure I got this right, so here's some corrections of your review, hope you don't mind. Thanks for posting the corrections on Rosinate book 1 versus what I remembered from reading the Rosinate series years ago. You never answered what you found really good about the Rosinate series though. Care to share what impressed you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 02:56
|
|