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My grandfather was our communities sole law enforcement officer, for something like 27 years. He got paid a whopping $300 a month when he retired in 1998. He was no bastard, he was a good man who stood up to protect and serve our small community for next to nothing in return. Professor Bling, there are good cops out there. The law of large numbers ensures there’s a few at a minimum, and a lot of us anecdotally know several good cops. So in all likelihood there’s more than just a random few. There’s also a lot of bastard cops. One is too many, and we have a number, a large number even, of bastard cops. This needs fixing, fast. But there are good cops. They’re just as real as the bastards, and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting ACAB constantly doesn’t change that.
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Jul 31, 2019 06:06
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Professor Bling posted:hey guess what I mean when I say "all cops are bastards" and maintain that there's no such thing as a good cop I like scrawling ACAB on bathroom stalls as much as the next guy but the point I’m making is that it furthers the problem by implying that the issue is that cops are automatically lovely themselves rather the system that takes typically naive and well meaning people and then molds them into lovely people.
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Jul 31, 2019 06:41
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https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/30/gonna-kill-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-final-minutes-tony-timpas-life Schizophrenic man calls 911 for help, gets zip tied with cops on his back pressing on him for a long time, says "you're killing me" repeatedly, police make fun of him and maintain pressure on his back. He dies. Police make fun of him more. Three cops charged. Statements made to the media which are full of lies. Charges dropped.
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Jul 31, 2019 15:19
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Best Friends posted:https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/30/gonna-kill-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-final-minutes-tony-timpas-life This is terrible and it is why we need good cops who are trained and experienced in dealing with the mentally ill. Prior to signing up for my department I spent years working in a psych ward, and it is the kind of experience I'd recommend for anyone going into law enforcement.
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Jul 31, 2019 15:28
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US Berder Patrol fucked around with this message at 16:54 on May 14, 2022 |
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Jul 31, 2019 15:37
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Sounds like texas
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Jul 31, 2019 16:59
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Chichevache posted:This is terrible and it is why we need good cops who are trained and experienced in dealing with the mentally ill. Prior to signing up for my department I spent years working in a psych ward, and it is the kind of experience I'd recommend for anyone going into law enforcement. So is working at a psych ward what also would give you the experience not to cover up the incident? This wasn't just untrianed cops oopsing into killing a man. The city hid the video from the public for years, even after all charge were dropped and decided these cops were A-OK to go back to patrolling the street. quote:Records recently obtained by The News show the Dallas Police Department’s internal affairs investigation related to Timpa’s death was completed months before the officers were indicted. Dillard, Mansell and Vasquez were disciplined for “conduct discrediting” the department, but those allegations were dropped when the criminal charges were dismissed. Vasquez and another officer present at Timpa’s death also received written reprimands for “discourtesy” and “unprofessionalism.” The issue is systemic. It's not just that the department didn't hire enough experienced and truly virtuous cops.
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Jul 31, 2019 18:26
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mlmp08 posted:So is working at a psych ward what also would give you the experience not to cover up the incident? This wasn't just untrianed cops oopsing into killing a man. The city hid the video from the public for years, even after all charge were dropped and decided these cops were A-OK to go back to patrolling the street. Working with the mentally ill is what helps you learn what to expect and how to properly deal with the mentally ill so that the situation never becomes violent, you clown. As line staff I'm never going to be in a situation where I'm orchestrating a coverup.
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Jul 31, 2019 18:34
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Chichevache posted:Working with the mentally ill is what helps you learn what to expect and how to properly deal with the mentally ill so that the situation never becomes violent, you clown. This is a good way to respond when I point out that cops cover poo poo up for cops. I don't think a smart solution to cops covering for cops after they kill someone is suggesting that we'll just make cops have to be psych ward employees before they're cops.
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Jul 31, 2019 18:38
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mlmp08 posted:This is a good way to respond when I point out that cops cover poo poo up for cops. I was more concerned with the man being murdered by three cops who clearly didn't understand the situation, but if you want to create a dumb strawman to fight then I don't see what there is to be gained by continuing a debate with a disingenuous shitstirrer.
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Jul 31, 2019 18:41
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If only there had been One Good Cop™ involved at any point over this long period of time to do something about all the bad cops that did this and then covered it up Maybe even the One Good Cop™ wasn't a "line officer" so they weren't involved in the incident itself but somewhere in the cover-up process Maybe the One Good Cop™ didn't have any power to do anything within the department and could have gone to the media to report this gross miscarriage of justice It's almost like there's no such thing as a good cop, even if some cops are good people when not wearing the uniform.
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Jul 31, 2019 18:42
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Chichevache posted:I was more concerned with the man being murdered by three cops who clearly didn't understand the situation, Yeah, if only you'd been there to stop this man's death. But I guess since you weren't, it's now "shitstirring" to talk poo poo about the cops who were there and their administration who helped cover it up and then put them back on the street?
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Jul 31, 2019 18:44
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mlmp08 posted:Yeah, if only you'd been there to stop this man's death. But I guess since you weren't, it's now "shitstirring" to talk poo poo about the cops who were there and their administration who helped cover it up and then put them back on the street? You're trying to imply that I'm somehow condoning their lovely behavior and the terrible coverup by multiple levels of Dallas PD because one of my solutions to the situation is to hire cops who won't kill the mentally ill at all. As if that somehow is me absolving ignorant shitheads of murder. We can have this conversation without being confrontational and putting words in each other's mouths. That's up to you.
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Jul 31, 2019 18:48
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Chichevache posted:You're trying to imply that I'm somehow condoning their lovely behavior and the terrible coverup by multiple levels of Dallas PD.... The irony is heavy in this post.
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Jul 31, 2019 19:02
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Professor Bling posted:If only there had been One Good Cop™ involved at any point over this long period of time to do something about all the bad cops that did this and then covered it up What's the point of you posting in this thread at all if you're 100% correct, the world is black and white, with no nuances or gray areas whatsoever?
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Jul 31, 2019 20:24
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I understand how y'all are emotionally exhausted to the point where you have trouble engaging in a genuine discussion about the issue, I'm right there with you on systemic racism being the underlying and all but insurmountable problem at hand. But why even post in this thread to engage in discussion when all you're gonna do is an impression of Sarcastaball-Randy-Marsh?
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Jul 31, 2019 20:31
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Like, as far as I can tell, none of the "bad apples" are in this forum, because they would have been run out of town by now. Even the ones unironically defending the bad apples have been shat on and run out of town iirc. So...if the remaining people are engaging in a discussion, have you thought about reciprocating the effort, to, you know, actually discussing in this one place where this discussion is "allowed"(lol at that, but here we are) instead of just having a sarcastic circlejerk? On a related note, "circlejerk" in German is referred to as "Kekswichsen"
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Jul 31, 2019 20:38
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The mental health system in this country is completely overwhelmed, and systemically underfunded. Blaming the police is a really easy thing to do, but it's a society-wide problem. No politician wants to raise taxes to improve living conditions in prisons, or to expand or build inpatient psych facilities, but that's exactly what we need. We've got so many people in jail that should be in inpatient psych centers. It's loving pathetic. We're spending $40k a year putting them in jail, and they'll only be worse once they get out, when if we spent a little bit more per year, they'd get the help they need and maybe, just maybe, be able to be independent and productive members of society if and when they get out. There are backlogs and waiting lists for even outpatient treatment. There aren't enough publicly run inpatient psych facilities at all. poo poo was different before Reagan closed so many state run psych hospitals. So many people who aren't going to ever be able to take care of themselves are pushed out into the outpatient system and many of them fall through the cracks and either end up in jail, dead, or end up in a constantly revolving door of being kicked out of different outpatient facilities for breaking the rules there, but because they're semi self sufficient they can be kicked out of the inpatient facilities to free up beds. There's always going to be people that are simply too mentally ill to ever live on their own outside of inpatient psychiatric hospitals. It's a loving shame but it's the truth. I don't know what it's like in other states but in certain counties in NY there are county-wide mobile mental health crisis teams on call at all times for mentally ill people in distress. If someone is expressing suicidal thoughts or actions, and/or threatens to, or wants to, or is going to harm other people, police can take them for a 72 psychiatric evaluation at any hospital that has a psych section. Eval is made and they're either released to family, or sent to an inpatient psych hospital, or sent back to their outpatient residential facility. The bottom line is that police need better training in dealing with the mentally ill or people in crisis, but that's not going to solve the issue alone. What we need is comprehensive mental healthcare coverage, an expansion of inpatient psychiatric hospitals, and an expansion to outpatient help as well. The problem is that that will cost a gently caress ton of money. Additionally, even if police were to get better training for dealing with the mentally ill, there's still going to be police shootings of the mentally ill. That will never stop. Ever. Why? Because people who feel they are at their rock bottom, and whose brains are literally telling them that they deseve / should be dead, whether they are mentally ill or not, are going to know that if they charge a cop with a knife, or grab a gun out of their waistband etc that the police are going to shoot them. It's suicide by cop and even if all police were to get world class training in dealing with those in mental health crises, it'll never be completely eliminated, because people know the cops are going to protect themselves. The best we can do is try to minimize those incidents, which we should absolutely try to do. But better training is not the panacea that some may think it will be.
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Jul 31, 2019 21:01
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Bored As gently caress posted:The mental health system in this country is completely overwhelmed, and systemically underfunded. Blaming the police is a really easy thing to do, but it's a society-wide problem. No politician wants to raise taxes to improve living conditions in prisons, or to expand or build inpatient psych facilities, but that's exactly what we need. We've got so many people in jail that should be in inpatient psych centers. It's loving pathetic. We're spending $40k a year putting them in jail, and they'll only be worse once they get out, when if we spent a little bit more per year, they'd get the help they need and maybe, just maybe, be able to be independent and productive members of society if and when they get out. I want you to know I read every word of this- and in the end only one emoticon describes how I felt. 
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Jul 31, 2019 21:23
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It does really seem like the training to not sit on a dude's back until he loses consciousness and dies should be pretty cheap. That's at least a tiny start.
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Jul 31, 2019 21:24
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Don't forget the prison industrial complex being a huge driving factor of the American economy. There is a lot of money to be made by throwing people in jail instead of actually helping them.
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Jul 31, 2019 21:29
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mlmp08 posted:It does really seem like the training to not sit on a dude's back until he loses consciousness and dies should be pretty cheap. That's at least a tiny start. New York had a system wide retraining of all police agencies regarding positional asphyxiation. When someone is on their stomach, it is harder for them to breathe, especially if that surface is hard, like concrete or pavement. It's an especially dangerous position for overweight people, as their body must work harder to fill their lungs with oxygen. We're now trained to put our knees across the person's wasit/belt area, not the back, when cuffing noncompliant subjects. We're also now trained to put them on their sides / a rescue positon as soon as possible. Hopefully more states adopt these new training standards, because positional asphyxiation is really loving dangerous and easily preventable.
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Jul 31, 2019 22:23
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mlmp08 posted:It does really seem like the training to not sit on a dude's back until he loses consciousness and dies should be pretty cheap. That's at least a tiny start. Yes, we all agree with that and I can guarantee that every single cop who posts on this forum is shocked by how stupid, callous, and careless those three morons were. Speaking for my department, we cover that shot constantly during training. Also if the guy did just fight police then leaving him on the ground in cuffs is stupid for so many reasons when you could be securing him in the back of the vehicle instead of high fiving each other about winning a fight 3 on 1.
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Aug 1, 2019 00:21
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Bored As gently caress posted:New York had a system wide retraining of all police agencies regarding positional asphyxiation. When someone is on their stomach, it is harder for them to breathe, especially if that surface is hard, like concrete or pavement. It's an especially dangerous position for overweight people, as their body must work harder to fill their lungs with oxygen. We're now trained to put our knees across the person's wasit/belt area, not the back, when cuffing noncompliant subjects. We're also now trained to put them on their sides / a rescue positon as soon as possible. Ah yes, the department famous for making "I can breathe" shirts is doing this retraining in good faith and is absolutely going to follow it
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Aug 1, 2019 00:50
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Professor Bling posted:Ah yes, the department famous for making "I can breathe" shirts is doing this retraining in good faith and is absolutely going to follow it What event do you think prompted this kind of retraining? Do you think any of us want to be famous for killing a handcuffed person?
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Aug 1, 2019 00:52
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Professor Bling posted:Ah yes, the department famous for making "I can breathe" shirts is doing this retraining in good faith and is absolutely going to follow it New York is also a state, you know. If I meant the NYPD exclusively, I would have said so. But yeah, his death prompted the retraining. Because he shouldn't have died. If the officers had been trained properly and given the basic information of positional asphyxiation and its risk factors, especially for overweight people, that man wouldnt have died.
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Aug 1, 2019 00:52
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Chichevache posted:What event do you think prompted this kind of retraining? Do you think any of us want to be famous for killing a handcuffed person? Seeing as how cops keep killing handcuffed people my answer is going to be "apparently yes, some of you do want to be famous for killing a handcuffed person." It literally doesn't matter whether the cops that post here think they're "one of the good ones," because they're not. And you can't ask someone to expect Officer Friendly when they're most likely going to get Officer DogShooter at best when they call in. Russian roulette might be one bullet in a revolver, but American roulette is dialing 911.
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Aug 1, 2019 00:56
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Professor Bling, is there any reply from one of the few cops here beyond “Golly Gee, you’re right, I’ll suck start my service weapon before the end of my shift!” that would satisfy you, or what? It’s one thing to be rightfully and seriously skeptical about policing in the US because there’s a ton of hosed up and reprehensible poo poo that happens, but your response to anyone else is just the same ACAB shtick. Is there anything else that could actually change your mind?
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Aug 1, 2019 01:09
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pantslesswithwolves posted:Professor Bling, is there any reply from one of the few cops here beyond “Golly Gee, you’re right, I’ll suck start my service weapon before the end of my shift!” that would satisfy you, or what? It’s one thing to be rightfully and seriously skeptical about policing in the US because there’s a ton of hosed up and reprehensible poo poo that happens, but your response to anyone else is just the same ACAB shtick. Is there anything else that could actually change your mind? No, he has one mode and it hasn't evolved at all. There's no point in talking to him, he's not here to discuss he's here to shout. And that's fine, really, listen to what everyone has to say but some people just want to be heard and aren't interested in any discourse, so hear them and move on with your day. Everyone has heard Bling's point of view, hopefully society and policing changes eventually to reflect a world more tolerable to him in the near future, but he has nothing new to say.
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Aug 1, 2019 01:31
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US Berder Patrol fucked around with this message at 16:57 on May 14, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2019 01:46
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Professor Bling posted:It literally doesn't matter whether the cops that post here think they're "one of the good ones," because they're not. And you can't ask someone to expect Officer Friendly when they're most likely going to get Officer DogShooter at best when they call in. Yeah, 51% of 911 calls result in an OIS and a dead pet. That's why we work all that forced overtime, because half the department is on paid administrative leave pending an open and shut investigation in which all officers were cleared.
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Aug 1, 2019 02:58
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Melthir posted:They literally do though, as a volunteer fire fighter I've seen them over and over no matter what town I've been stationed in. Dudes take the extra time to listen and talk. Dont run around in a brodozer. Its generally the guys in the mid 30s or younger. Just because they don't support your bullshit fantasy doesn't mean they are not out there and common enough. That's the thing. A good person who becomes a cop lasts as a 'good cop' precisely until they realize that they cannot stop the bad cops from abusing their power. At that point they either stop being a cop, or stop being good and start being complicit in the coverups.
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Aug 1, 2019 09:55
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https://twitter.com/MamoudouNDiaye/status/1155822774348406784?s=19
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Aug 1, 2019 15:21
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Liquid Communism posted:That's the thing. Bullshit, thats a loving strawman from hell. You are not responsible for someone else's actions. You are responsible for you. If someone else does something hosed up pass it up the chain. If they choose not to act that's on them. If it's bad enough contact the IG or IA. You do the best you can do every day. I've been doing this gig 16 years now and yeah the assholes get to be a pain but if you don't make a change but can prevent poo poo from getting worse then your doing your community a favor if some idealist gently caress like me wasn't filling this gig they'd likely put some Gomer Pyle gently caress in my spot. Every single day you can make a difference is just whether you going to let this poo poo grind you down or not. Some days it sucks worse then others, so what that's loving called life. But if by just not being a gently caress up your able to make someone's life better then that's good enough. I'd rather it be me or one of my buddies show up then some tacticool fuckwit who should have never been hired in the first place showing up and using force when there was no reason for it. Just by being a decent human being prevents 90% of the bullshit from kicking off in the first place. Also generally the guys who get help or talk about the hosed up poo poo and work out generally are not the guys I'm worried about cracking skills. It's the broody fucks who eat like poo poo and keep it all to themselves, it eats at them like cancer.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:41
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IMHO from my very, very short police career the two big fixes are a real system of actual federal oversight (not even just what the Obama admin FBI was doing by actual kinda sorta sometimes hold departments accountable, but an actual dedicated federal oversight of training and police culture beyond the very limited powers of the FBI OCR). This should also cover the hiring and disciplinary process so that tracking misconduct actually ensures that criminal cops don't get jobs elsewhere or skate by in lovely departments once their crimes are forgotten. Second and also expensive to take a page from the British and have cops be partnered up whenever possible. Having cops operate alone both just seems ridiculous to me and asking to create situations that even when handled "properly" can still result in preventable use of lethal force or cause injury. This is especially so when it comes to dealing with the mentally ill or any situation involving a weapon like a knife. I'd also like to create a system where cops/police leadership were elected or at least more directly accountable to local community organizations that they'd actually be patrolling rather than a distant political entity that sees all lower class and minority neighborhoods as zones of occupation but lol at that happening even though the first two are already unrealistic and this last one ain't happening anytime before we somehow create a libertarian socialist paradise and dismantle all the hosed up power structures in our current iteration of the US.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:47
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Melthir posted:Bullshit, thats a loving strawman from hell. You are not responsible for someone else's actions. Uhhhhhh, you're absolutely responsible for other's actions when you're a cop. Maybe not often legally liable in the US, but morally. You are very much accountable for your co-workers actions in any profession like this from medicine, the military, or law enforcement.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:53
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Melthir posted:Bullshit, thats a loving strawman from hell. You are not responsible for someone else's actions. You are responsible for you. If someone else does something hosed up pass it up the chain. If they choose not to act that's on them. If it's bad enough contact the IG or IA. You do the best you can do every day. I've been doing this gig 16 years now and yeah the assholes get to be a pain but if you don't make a change but can prevent poo poo from getting worse then your doing your community a favor if some idealist gently caress like me wasn't filling this gig they'd likely put some Gomer Pyle gently caress in my spot. Every single day you can make a difference is just whether you going to let this poo poo grind you down or not. Hey so this is a lot of angry words but if you know something bad happened and its being covered up when does it become "bad enough" to where you stop ignoring the coverup (that you've tacitly admitted you do) and instead go to IG or IA? What if IG or IA does nothing (because they're also cops and just loving lol at cops holding other cops accountable)? Do you throw your hands up and say "oh well, I did one useless thing, so now it's not on me?" Which is bullshit, by the way; it's absolutely on you. It's on everyone wearing a badge to be responsible for the actions of everyone else wearing a badge, and to fight like hell against any injustice done by the police. Don't like it? Too loving bad, you're in the wrong line of work.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:13
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SpaceSDoorGunner posted:Uhhhhhh, you're absolutely responsible for other's actions when you're a cop. Maybe not often legally liable in the US, but morally. Your cherry picking here dude. I covered that just a bit later. You are responsible only as far as sending it up the chain to you supervisor, the IG or IA. Unless they are your subordinate you are literally not responsible for them. I'm not responsible if some loving rear end clown decides to go hands on with someone over failure to show identification. I know 100% our supervisor would gently caress his world up. The only people I have to worry about are me and my guys. And funny thing is that they all have a similar mindset as I do. Do the job don't harass people. Dont go hands on if their is another option. Talking is key.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:19
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Melthir posted:Your cherry picking here dude. I covered that just a bit later. You are responsible only as far as sending it up the chain to you supervisor, the IG or IA. Unless they are your subordinate you are literally not responsible for them. I'm not responsible if some loving rear end clown decides to go hands on with someone over failure to show identification. I know 100% our supervisor would gently caress his world up. The only people I have to worry about are me and my guys. And funny thing is that they all have a similar mindset as I do. Do the job don't harass people. Dont go hands on if their is another option. Talking is key. Pretty sure Professor Bling just wants you to shoot the other cop on sight and then kill yourself.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:20
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Professor Bling posted:Hey so this is a lot of angry words but if you know something bad happened and its being covered up when does it become "bad enough" to where you stop ignoring the coverup (that you've tacitly admitted you do) and instead go to IG or IA? What if IG or IA does nothing (because they're also cops and just loving lol at cops holding other cops accountable)? No you drat edge lord. You dont cover up anything, I even went over that. If it's bad enough that someone outside your supervisor needs to know or repeatedly ignores then you reach out. If the drat investigators don't do their job that's on them, not me. Hopefully the media coverage of the situation will bring it to light. If not I'm still going to keep doing the best I can. By me just saying gently caress it I'm not going to do a good job anymore cause bad LEOs make people angry is just stupid. All that does is open up my job to some asshat that likes the way this country is headed under our current administration. Also do you really believe in any way shape or form that your arguments are going to make a difference with your obviously straight ACAB arguments. Don't like it, to bad. Learn how to articulate yourself in a way that doesn't come across a a pedantic twat.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:29
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