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You can kind of rationalize it if you want. One of the current issues with fusion is that while we can generate a fusion reaction, it costs more energy to start it then it outputs. So the machines use human heat as that energy input. All they have to do is feed the living humans dead humans and follow the circle of life. Of course, the math probably doesn't work out at all and humans are kind of needy as far as food/water go. But really there's no reason to think humans do understand it all when they don't even realize there have been 5 other matrix/zion worlds in the past.
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Sep 14, 2021 21:36
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Morpheus is the captain of a ship, not a grunt. He speaks to council members directly. And most importantly, he is the keynote speaker before the annual zion orgy. Everyone was enraptured by his motivational speech.
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Sep 15, 2021 02:47
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Morpheus is like the matrix pope. Or a matrix cardinal. In zion he is the one preaching the religion of neo and many are listening to it. So while not on the council, he has a lot of influence.
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Sep 15, 2021 17:11
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He will end all class struggle in the matrix by freeing everyone from it. And then welcome to them hierarchy of zion.
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Sep 15, 2021 22:01
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So thats a good question. What currency does Zion use if any? Some new crypto? Matrix programs? Or is it like a socialist commune? Its not clear that the zion orgy had an entrance fee, but it could also be a council sponsored advertising initiative like a parade or airshow.
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Sep 15, 2021 22:16
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I also think the machines do not necessarily feel a need to propagate into space. Remember Smith calls humans a virus for spreading and spreading the first movie. Maybe they just like building their city and watching humans live in the matrix. On another note, anyone listened to all of the commentaries in the matrix blu ray/4k release? I started listening to the philosophical one and its pretty interesting so far. The critic one seems like a neat concept too.
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Sep 17, 2021 23:26
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Smith and Trinity are the new features that help break the matrix cycle. The Oracle helped push trinity onto neo and gave him a reason to love just one human more than all humans. Smith definitely seems unplanned. Oracle never says, "Hey if you happen to get the One powerup soon, make sure to jump into an agents body. Trust me." Neo, Trinity, and Smith form a new trinity needed to create a harmony between mind, body, and machine.
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Sep 23, 2021 18:13
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I don't know anything about the early matrix reloaded drafts (though they sound interesting), but the Morpheus a presented in the first Matrix does not come off as someone who would knowingly force billions out of the matrix. When he first introduces neo to the matrix, neo has the panic attack, and Morpheus apologizes to him in his room. A bit like yoda, he states that they Neo is older then their limit for pulling people out of the matrix typically, but here he had no choice. He understands that it will be difficult for most people. And most importantly, Morpheus is all about choices. There is the pill scene as thoroughly discussed, but he also repeatedly tells Neo that he can only show Neo the door. Neo must choose to walk through it. All that being said, it was never clear after the first matrix what the next step in the revolution and freeing humanity would be. The first just all about Neo's awakening. The philopshy commentary discusses this change between the two films a bit. The first follows morpheus's plan and dogma to locate his messiah to free people from control. But the second movie then states this dogma of morpheus is another form of control that must be broken also.
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Sep 27, 2021 19:29
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That matrix online version of Morpheus bombing doesn't sound like matrix 1 Morpheus who is all about people choosing on their own. I havent seen the sequels in a bit, but I cant remember him being characterized as one who would do terrorist attacks.
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Sep 27, 2021 21:25
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porfiria posted:In the opening of the Matrix it's stated the Resistance murders innocent hackers who get too close to the truth. Going to have to remind me of what you are talking about. I just watched this film again last week and don't think anything like that is explicitly said. Looking up the first 5 minutes on Youtube, Cypher and Trinity are discussing Trinity watching Neo. Cypher states that "We're going to kill him, you understand that?" I guess with this just this dialogue you could call that a threat to murder, but the rest of the context of the film just shows how this more of a warning to the dangers on being in the resistance and learning the truth. Watching Neo has brought the agents to him as we see in a good 10 minutes later in the film. And Morpheus then tells Neo that if the agents knew why Morpheus has been watching Neo, then the Agents would have killed Neo. So no I don't think they just murder hackers. Police, yes. But hackers no.
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Sep 27, 2021 21:52
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Quickly scanning, that script is definitely a very different movie. It also doesn't seem as much like the Morpheus who is all about choices. And like others pointed out, the resistance ships could already attack the human fields if that is what they wanted to do. But definitely could have been an interesting film. The morality of killing all the soldiers/police is addressed, and the agents making their own Neo essentially (which would be become super smith in final film) sounds fun. In the sequels, Morpheus is definitely not written as having a plan after finding the One. As stated, the oracle told him this should lead to freedom of all from the matrix, but he does not know the details. As is usual strategy, he goes to ask the Oracle. But the Oracle can definitely lie. She is part of the matrix system after all. So her telling Morpheus that the one will destroy the matrix may simply telling Morpheus and others what they needs to hear. She is shown to have her own plan with her manipulation of trinity, which is apparently a first for the cycles.
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Sep 28, 2021 01:05
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Lying is probably too strong, but she does omit information. And as you stated, she speaks in riddles left to interpretation. So its very easy for Morpheus to want to interpret a concept like freedom or the end of this system as the destruction of the matrix. But that's just speculation. We know she has her own agency though and seems to get the harmony end she desired. And as Morpheus tells Neo, she will tell people what they need to hear. Other thought I had while reading that script. Do we ever see an agent unmorph besides death? Can they just unpossess a body and that person will be ok? Or does the act kill the host.
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Sep 28, 2021 01:58
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Also remember that even if they could upload superpowers, the machines have no need to do this. The One and his power are just part of their control system. A fake revolution that will just reset time and start a new countdown until the matrix society goes unstable again. This plan has worked for centuries until the neo, trinity and smith existed and thanks to the Oracle's tampering.
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Sep 28, 2021 06:08
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Other agents are impressed by his ponytail in the script too. If we all could only dream as much. And new bad guy is just Gregory. Not Gregory Rage. Or Un-neo or any name with symbolism. Just a biker dude named Gregory. Clearly the anti christ.
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Sep 28, 2021 23:57
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Oracle: "Neo, you will have to face him. Your battle will determine the fate of not only the matrix, but all of humanity and the machines." Neo: "Smith? I destroyed him once, and no matter the upgrades, I can beat him again." Oracle: "No, I speak of Greg." Neo: "Greg? Greg who?" Oracle: "Just Greg. He is like you, but more Greg."
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Sep 29, 2021 01:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Architect stuff.. The architect and the keymaster are definitely examples of programs with set roles. And the agents too, except smith-reborn of course. But then you have ones like the Oracle and the Merovingian who seem to pursue their own agenda. I suppose in a rehabilitation role for the matrix, you could argue that the Oracle was then just doing her role to guide humanity to what should be the proper future: humans and machines happy together. But then is there any indication that the machine leadership ever desired such peace? It seems more like they were forced to accept human + machine harmony vs. continued captivity. The Merovingian of course is just working on perfecting his orgasm baking techniques.
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Sep 29, 2021 01:17
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I think besides the power plant raid in reloaded, most of the fights now involve neo and co. vs programs. I wonder if this is partly done as a way to get around the moral problem of neo killing a lot sleeping humans, even if police.
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Sep 29, 2021 06:08
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Some kids keep jacking into the matrix to go to Rob Zombie concerts. Others are stuck trying out for the zion football team. Future robo apocalypse classism. You gotta expect that there would be a lot more Cyphers. Maybe a pro matrix party on the council. Unless they were all purged..
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Sep 30, 2021 18:48
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Everyone should just talk about Greg.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:23
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Yeah 4k Matrix 1 looks so good. I have to pick up reloaded 4k next. I dont think I have watched that film in whole in years. I also am excited for the commentary continuation between the films as I love a good commentary.
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Sep 30, 2021 23:45
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Shiroc posted:I haven't watched either of the sequels in forever. I watched the original most recently a few years ago either slightly before or after coming out when another trans woman had first talked about all of the trans stuff in it. I am curious after you rewatch it, but do you find reloaded continues with the same trans metaphor/language? Your insights to the first movie made sense, but as stated in all the discussion here, the sequels do change up a lot from the original matrix.
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Oct 1, 2021 02:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Morpheus makes it clear to Neo that "the mind makes it real" after their spar in the dojo leaves Neo bloody and sore. So similar to pain, nutrition in the matrix would be real because his mind thinks it has an effect. Sugary matrix cookies probably still produce endorphin release making him happier. We can also assume that if Neo stuffed himself out the local buffet, he would feel sluggish and perhaps have out of matrix stomach pains. If Morpheus or Trinity became stuck in the matrix and did not eat, they would still starve to death inside the ship even knowing the matrix is an illusion. Pain, sleep, hunger, all of these basic needs seem to be inescapable even knowing that it should not matter. None of the resistance seems to be able to fully escape the illusions of the matrix.
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Oct 1, 2021 17:41
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jivjov posted:For me at least, Reloaded continues with it, at least in Neo's conversation with the Oracle, some of the dialog with Smith and the Architect about choice, etc. Thanks for sharing. Yeah revolutions seems more concerned with big robot battles and establishing the new harmony. But its cool you found something in it to give some inspiration.
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Oct 3, 2021 06:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Matrix sequels aren't bad, per se, but they constitute a single, 4.5-hour fantasy comedy(?) movie (with intermission) that's bloated with exposition and includes numerous scenes that still don't really make sense because they're part of a 'multimedia experience' crossover with (at the very least) the Osiris short film and Enter The Matrix videogame. I dont think I even knew all these things existed when I was younger. I had watched the animatrix, but only because I was into anime then. But yeah all the video games and other tie-ins I totally missed. I assume I was not alone on this. Of course they were about 20 years too early with this it seems. Now its normal for MCU and Star wars to have tv shows and games (fortnite at least) that feed into the plot of upcoming sequel films.
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Oct 3, 2021 17:13
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Does a chatbot chat if no humans are around to chat?
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Oct 9, 2021 07:26
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Robot Style posted:The Wachowskis addressed the battery thing in an interview from around the time of Cloud Atlas: This seems kind of like modern fusion engines where we need lots of external energy to start and maintain the fusion reaction. Ideally the machines in the Matrix time have made this more efficient so they can generate a net positive. The first movie does kind of the show that the matrix is designed to be self sufficient. People die and get turned into a black goo that is used to feed all the other living. So you need some simulated disasters to kill people at time to feed the others. For a purpose of the matrix, it could be simply that the machines simply found a use for the humans and settled on it. Maybe its simply like evolution. One set of machines started capturing humans and using them to produce slightly more energy than other sets of machines. This seemed to work so they settled on it. I think a lot of movies show Ai as this continually optimizing perfect math gods, but the matrix programs seem to be satisfied with where they are. You never see any programs trying to become the super AI or expand to take over galaxy. They are happy where they are with making weird matrix speeches or baking orgasm cakes. Or maybe the Oracle's goal was the true intention and really machines just wanted humans to be their friends again. So they kept them around until they passed their parole and were ready to rejoin society.
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Oct 9, 2021 07:46
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Ammanas posted:That really would have obliterated Morpheus' legitimacy and undermined an already tenuous Neo Gregory
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Oct 19, 2021 01:19
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Completed my rewatch of Reloaded on the 4k set. Some of the CGI hasnt aged very well (the Trinity fall, Morpheus fighting on the truck, some explosions), but overall looks great. Its been a while since I have watched this in its entirety again, but I think its a pretty solid sequel. Its main weaknesses i think are that it just needs to trim down some of the scenes. The intro trinity falling dream starts to drag with slow mo gunshot after gunshot. I guess it was a nice tech demo at the time, but now we just want to move past it. Same issue with the horde of smiths brawl. The idea is fine, but it just goes on for too long (also cannot unhear the bowling sound effect now). On other hand I thought the freeway battle and fight in the merovingians house were paced well with some nice cuts or slow mo to break it up. Persephone still feels like she could just be cut, though I guess its another demonstration of how Neo and Trinity's love is essential . Its fun seeing how much of a zealot Morpheus is now. He was right about Neo existing, so every action he makes or conversation he has is filled with that unwavering confidence. Drive on the freeway, fight an agent, worry about sentinels? None of that matters as they are on the one true path. He even prays for Neo's help on top of the truck and Neo provides. So finding out all of the prophecy/religion is just for control really feels shattering. The Merovingian is pretty fun. He straight up tries to warn Neo that "hey you need to think about why you are doing this". Even the Oracle cautions Neo on who to trust. But Neo like all of us are so sure that Morpheus still knows the way. Overall I enjoyed the increased philosophical side to the sequel and how its not just kill all machines. Also the architect is still just perfect. The tv camera transitions in the sequence are so slick. As for Smith, Weaving continues to just steal every scene he is in. I am less excited to rewatch Revolutions, but at the same time I can barely remember the first half of it, so should be interesting at least.
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Dec 15, 2021 08:06
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Its just Lana this time, but the Wachowski films haven't been getting less politicized post matrix at least. Jupiter Ascending literally had an economy based on harvesting the underclass for purely vanity reasons. But they are big on love and romance and that looks to be at the forefront of this film along with the creation/nostalgia critiques. So guess we will see how politics play into it.
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Dec 18, 2021 23:38
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Is the super burly brawl the revolutions final fight? I thought that one was not bad actually. It has some nice lighting shots and mixing it up with camera work at least. Ultimately it probably goes on a little too long like the other burly brawl, but here they make it very clear its a battle of ideology (purpose/fate vs. choice). This one also had blood again at least compared to the last burly brawl. And speaking of blood, the Smith-Bane vs. Neo fight was a brutality that hadn't been seen since the first Matrix. I rewatched Revolutions myself tonight and is it the most action oriented of the 3? I like the beginning part where we learn more of the programs and their nature that is basically the same as humans. They have their own society where a controlling government forces rules on them. There is a bit of the choice vs. purpose aspect again as they are defined by purpose but choose to save Sati via smuggling. Some silly stuff too though like the club scene or seraph hiding from Smith. The defense of zion is very progressive with women, minorities, young and old all helping the battle in various ways. Was the Hammer that Niobe flew the only remaining ship? I know Smith took out 5 with an emp. Then 2 others were destroyed (neb and the other reloaded crew) and neo took one. So 9-10 ships total? Its a good end in that Neo must choose to sacrifice himself for all societies: zion, the matrix, and the machine city. Its not just dominance by one, but rather a new harmony. All societies will be allowed to exist by choice this time. I like how Smith became the pure agent of purpose and that the only purpose of all life must be to end. So he will end it. It can seem kind of typical villain, but works within the themes of purpose vs. choice. Overall I think I enjoyed the sequels a lot more this time. I guess now I wasnt expecting them to be just like more of the first matrix and instead trying to appreciate the themes they were trying to discuss. And some great action and actors cant hurt either.
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Dec 19, 2021 08:17
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I was listening to some of the commentary tracks included on the Reloaded 4k and its funny how different they can be with regards to specific scenes. Cornell West, on the philosophers commentary track, is just loving the Zion Rave scene and how multicultural/gender it is and how it is just a great embrace of the human body. On the critics track though, one of them said it was like a beer commercial with white people trying to show they are multi-cultural. Another called the music Tarzan music. They then went onto say the Neo/Trinity sex scene should have been delicate and intimate. It was the same for the scene with Link and his family. West and the other guy loved the depiction of a domestic moment with a non-white family. They thought it showed another human side of love (which would show up later in a similar fashion with the programs). But the critics said this scene was all the un-cool boring stuff that they didnt want in movies (as opposed to all of the cool stuff the first matrix included). Both tracks were fairly aligned for the first film, but this was a nice example of how polarizing this sequel and much of their future work would be.
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Dec 20, 2021 05:41
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I really like Matrix 2 in that it asks questions about messiah stories (who controls the stories and why do they exist), and the action once the fight starts in the Merovingians house is all solid stuff. Trinity also gains expanded importance as Neo needs her to stay grounded to humanity. But I think Matrix 1 is just a tighter film. You can tell in 2 that they wanted to go bigger (more locations, characters, action) and in some places like the highway it worked, but for others it just dragged some. I'd probably just rank them in order of release: 1, 2, 3. But 2 and 3 do give you an increased density of Hugo Weaving, so can't complain there. Also Two towers has Treebeard and lots of Gollum. Fellowship has neither of these.
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Dec 20, 2021 19:10
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Basebf555 posted:I think for this one the reason is that they have to fool Smith into absorbing Neo's code into himself. If Neo just shows up and lays down without a fight then he might think something is amiss. I think there's also the aspect that Neo just knew he needed to go there and negotiate with the machines face Smith. He assumed he could just beat Smith in a fight again through will power. And really thats the most he's understood about being the Matrix messiah. That he could fly and fight well. As the anomoly/avatar of free choice, he had to choose sacrifice. And this did not occur to him until he heard Smith speak the oracles words. All of revolutions and Neo's real world power kind of point towards the Wachowski future of Sense 8 and Cloud Atlas where everyone is the same deep down (human, or matrix program, or machine), and they can all feel love and hate equally. Its definitely a different feel than the original matrix smash the machines ending.
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Dec 21, 2021 01:56
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BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:Seriouspost - everyone talks about Baudrillard but really the philosopher "key" to understanding the Matrix movies is Ken Wilber. Oh Ken was the other one with Cornell West on the commentaries? Yeah he is great on these and really gets into explaining the competing views and themes in the sequels. I hope he comes back for the eventual matrix 4 commentary.
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Dec 21, 2021 18:32
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Just got out of seeing it in IMAX. Loved it. Some thoughts: -Calling the matrix a game inside of the matrix world was great and obviously fitting for our times. -I cant quite remember, but during the matrix 4 brainstorming scenes, did they ever discuss the love story as an aspect? I remember all the action and philosophy talk at least. - Lana obviously though the love aspect was the most important part of the matrix movies worth coming back to. Neo literally pushes obstacles out of his way to get to trinity. Neither can be truly powered (and true creators) without love. -Is there an aspect that sincere love will destroy the matrix/new online world controlling us? -Niobe has to be like 90 right? But I did like her remark about how the previous war was a matrix controlling the people of zion in that it dominated their lives. -A lot of talk about the action scenes, but I enjoyed the intro scenes and subway fight at least. These were better in the original, but thats kind of the point. -New characters were mostly alright, though hard to remember any but Bugs and Morpheus. I like the integrated machine/human world as it continued the promise of harmony at the end of the original trilogy. -The end is Lana saying she (and maybe her sister) can and will just create what they want. This can definitely be look as a retroactive statement. Even if not everyone gets it and is "freed", they will just create.
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Dec 23, 2021 08:33
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Ferrinus posted:I might have missed a line somewhere and so I'm not sure I understood the status of the machine war. So the synthients had some kind of civil war post-Revolutions and went back to abducting and imprisoning humans? Io has to hide behind holograms because the machines would just attack it if they knew where it is? Or is it just that Niobe doesn't want to take the chance? There seems to be at least two groups of machines. Post matrix 3, architect promises to free those who want out. So apparently many did which caused enough of a power issue that some other machines/programs revolted against him. I think at some point during this some machines broke off to form the Synthients to work with the humans. Tati appears to be part of this group. The new rulers of machine city then apparently do wipe out zion, but enough escaped and with Synthients IO was formed in its place. It seems IO is at least not in an active war with machine city as Niobe talks about how great the peace is. Based on her discussions with Bugs, I assume that they are mostly at peace because they stay hidden and do not actively free people anymore from the matrix. Life is easy with no revolution. The analyst though did not seem to care about these freed humans at all as his matrix was super effective.
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Dec 23, 2021 08:43
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Shiroc posted:Because the movie is explicit that Neo can't do everything he used to anymore but he's putting his belief into Trinity the way she had for him? Agreed. I am not sure how some people dont get this and get caught up in GIRL POWER memes. Neo literally says it multiple times .
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Dec 23, 2021 17:28
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teagone posted:This is probably what Lana wants you think, while hoping that maybe you'll also understand the "why" behind it all. Or maybe not. We'll never know. Lana definitely chose some of the same big action location for a reason. The intro building, the subway, and then later a motorcycle chase similar to reloaded. Keanu is playing a very tired Neo who really only gets serious in these fights when people say he cant see Trinity. The meta reason of course is that movies that try to repeat their past high points just never work as well, like death star and death planet from awakens. That being said I dont even think the intro rooftops or subway battle are lovely. They are just not as good as the old ones.
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Dec 23, 2021 17:33
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Regarding Tiffany/Neo appearances: Yeah I like Tiffany's story about looking like Trinity. It also let some of the Trinity personality come through. Between her story and neo's different appearance, I suppose this could be more trans analogy. You again look different to everyone else than how you see yourself, and when you do try to explain this you may just get laughed at. But I will let others in this thread comment on this. From a more meta perspective, it could be that others see the matrix films for one thing, and when you Lana and others try to say they are something else, people reject this. It feels like these scenes and others gave Keanu and Moss a lot more to work with for acting this time around.
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Dec 23, 2021 17:58
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I know someone mentioned it but it was a big miss for new Morpheus to be just his nano ball projection for the later half of the film. What if, hear me out, his nano projection also wore sick looking outfits in the real world? I’m not talking about projecting cool looking suits. Have the mass of nano magnetic balls wear an actual suit Agreed. He was killing it with that wardrobe. Hopefully in universe someone saw his style and was inspired to upgrade those magnetic balls for color.
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Dec 23, 2021 18:00
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