[BOOK SPOILERS] Robert Jordan's Waste of Time -- so cheesy but so good

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bio347: Oct 29, 2012

If Moiraine's telling of the story of Manetheren doesn't summon tears, the whole thing is worthless imo. I've read Eye of the World so many times that I can practically recite it by heart and that scene gets. me. every. time.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2020 22:11

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 23:28

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

UltraRed posted:

If anything, Min's background needs more filling out because what does she really have going on besides aura seeing, throwing knives, and not wearing skirts.

I would never have remembered it but for being just past Lord of Chaos: She's also the... like, Scholarly One. She starts reading philosophy and takes over Herid Fel's stuff and IIRC ends up pointing something out about how the end will go. I'm not sure you could introduce that into the early books and still have it work, though.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2020 18:54

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Data Graham posted:

I'm pretty sure the text goes out of its way to say nobody moves a muscle normally when channeling.

It'll all come down to that one duel in the museum where it's FLYING FIREBALLS AND STREAMERS AND EXPLOSIONS AND LOUD BOOMING NOISES AND SHRIEKING AND FLAMES AND

*cut to janitor walking by, sees two women silently standing three feet apart with gritted teeth staring daggers at one another with soft muzak playing; then cut back to*

SHRIEKING AND FIRE AND WATERFALLS AND SPECTRAL VOLCANOES AND RIBBONS OF POWER TEARING EACH OTHER APART

That one, specifically, is actually not what you've described, because it's literally the two of them with all of their strength in stilling weaves smashed up against each other like a pair of locked swords. The narrative does go out of its way to point out that a third party would've just seen two women staring real hard at each other, though.

IIRC, most of the face-to-face duels end up that way, actually, with shields and holding them off being the primary focus

# ¿ Aug 26, 2020 00:48

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

On my current trip through, I think I've decided that the White Tower plot is actually the worst. I honestly kinda enjoy the political intrigue stuff, but Aes Sedai are dumb and horrible and bad at being wizards besides, and I think I like being in Egwene's head even less than I do Faile-less Perrin.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2020 02:37

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

It kinda gets glossed over by the books, but Min does do a bit of philosophizin'. Well, the output gets glossed over, but they like to mention that she's always got Herid Fel's books on hand and Rand mentions that she gave him a clue to something for his Last Battle. I forget what precisely, and I don't have aMoL handy, but on memory it was either re: Callandor or re: the prison.

Would've been cool to lean into that a bit more, show her and Rand talking about the whole metaphysical aspect of what's going on and whatnot. Heck, it's even a bit fun that the tomboy character ends up being the smartypants of the bunch.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2020 00:49

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

UltraRed posted:

She probably thinks of them as yokels. It's never directly addressed in her thoughts, but she did grow up noble, and they've never done anything to "prove" themselves, i.e. Siuan.

One of my favourite throwaway lines is when Moiraine thinks to herself something like "Siuan said that growing up in the Sun Palace had set arrogance deep in her bones, but she didn't see it."

# ¿ Sep 21, 2020 20:07

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

ConfusedUs posted:

I say it again: Elaida's greatest flaw is right out there in the open. It's right in her name:

Elide:
transitive verb

1a : to suppress or alter (something, such as a vowel or syllable) by elision
b : to strike out (something, such as a written word)

2a : to leave out of consideration : omit
b : curtail, abridge

This is a woman who makes her entire life about omitting/altering/suppressing/altering/curtailing the things she doesn't want to see in favor of those she does. Her entire purpose is to be a self-deluded obstacle to the heroes and their designs.

I adore that Elaida's Foretelling about the royal line of Andor was almost certainly about Rand, though she probably had no way of knowing it. From the absolute very start, she's wrong.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2020 21:11

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I'm in the middle of The Gathering Storm, and it feels kinda weird.

I know that part of it is simply that I've read Jordan's books far more than I have Sanderson's. I can't recall anymore if I actually did a reread for all three of the latter, so it's entirely possible I've read each of them only once (certainly not more than thrice each), while I could probably recite Eye of the World plot point by plot point and my poor thousand-page middle books are practically falling apart.

Part of it is certainly noticing oddities among word choice and the like, though I try and not stare at things too hard because that way lies madness.

But honestly? The thing that's getting me the most is the absolute mess of the structure of the book. It steadfastly refuses to stay in one place for more than a chapter or two, and loves shoving multiple PoVs into single chapters, made all the more noticeable for being so close to Crossroads of Twilight (which I think is absolutely gorgeously organized). I certainly get it, but man if it isn't jarring.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2020 01:31

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I feel like 85% certain one of the banners at Fal Dara was black-and-gold. I wish I had my books handy to check, because it's bugging me - one of my biggest pet peeves with book adaptations is when they can't even be bothered to get small, easy details like colour right.

Artonos posted:

I started re-reading eye of the world again. This is only my 2nd time through the series. It's funny how it's repeated twice by Moirane that things aren't magical. And then Mat immediately grabs a magical dagger in Shadar Logoth.

Technically, Moiraine only said that objects don't have the Power. Shadar Logoth is not of the One Power at all. It is, in fact, a very Aes Sedai thing to have happen. :v:

# ¿ Oct 29, 2020 20:51

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

JOHN SKELETON posted:

There's also an interview with Daniel Greene: https://youtu.be/FLPGhJOFEoE where Sanderson talks about his writing process and how he uses many beta readers. Somehow none of the beta readers caught how lame Padan Fain's end is. Which does put the whole process into question.

I recently finished my readthrough and I am still baffled by Sanderson's poor grasp of the One Power. You'd think that over the course of three books SOMEONE would have noticed that there were people channeling without mention of embracing or having been holding the Source, or that laypeople suddenly had knowledge of weave types, or that there are basically no descriptions of what it feels like to hold saidar or (particularly) saidin. At they very least they cut out they very weird usage of the otherwise unmodified word capital-P "Power" from ToM for aMoL, because I feel like that would have driven me nuts.

While I'm complaining, I also want to point out that in Sanderson's books not once is the sound of Moiraine's voice described, despite there being some very good places for it. I can see how a lot of things could slip through, but that's pretty unforgivable.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2020 01:42

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I dunno if a younger Thom can even really be Thom. It changes his relationship dynamic with pretty much everyone, and I'm not sure you can cram even most of his backtsory and motivations into someone not-old. I suppose maybe that doesn't matter as much in the shorter format of TV?

jng2058 posted:

Whatever you think of his handling of the last three books, you can't deny he knows his WoT lore.

You... actually probably can argue that. On certain subjects and details, at the very least.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2020 18:59

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Honestly, it's weird to me to imagine WoT without all of its side characters. It has to be that way, obviously, but... weird.

Like, Domon. Undoubtedly a minor character, but without him you have to do something different with the escape from Shadar Logoth. He's not really immediately relevant to the main characters at Falme, but he's how Egeanin gets into the story and without both of them Tanchico and Ebou Dar end differently and the Domination Band has to take a different path. Dude somehow manages to mostly only show up at climaxes, which honestly has to be a tough life.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2020 22:42

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

rndmnmbr posted:

Yeah, yeah, I've had this discussion before. And everyone generally lands opposite of me on this, that the fine details aren't as important as general tone and plot and quality of production, so I can admit I am that guy and should just deal.

I'm definitely with you on this point. Like, that Q&A tweet about Thom says as a minor point "Never fear, multi colored cloak is still in existence, but different than you imagine. Isis (our costume designer) nailed it." and my brain goes... but if it's different than how I imagine then how can it have been "nailed"? AND ALSO it's a patch-covered cloak not a multi-coloured cloak how can I even trust you at all now?

That's not to say that it will necessarily be bad, just that it's not what I want.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2020 03:58

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

jng2058 posted:

Yeah but she doesn't realize who he is until, what, the beginning of Shadows Rising and they have that conversation where she reveals she figured out who he is and he returns the favor. Until then, he's just a gleeman who showed up as far as Moiraine is concerned.

That's when Moiraine tells Thom that she knows who he is, but there's almost know way she didn't know right from the start. She goes out of her way to Aes-Sedai-threaten him at their first meeting, and I don't think that would be necessary if he were just a random-rear end gleeman.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2020 06:21

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Honestly, though. That scene.

Moiraine knows the Dragon Reborn has to be here, and she's pretty certain she's gotten the jump on the rest of existence... and then she finds Thom loving Merrilin. Why is he here!?
Thom is just out gleemaning in one of the hickest parts of the world... and an Aes Sedai pops up. A Blue, who's also a Cairhienin noble. Why is she here!?

So she's like "you better not be here to gently caress with me" and he's like "light no poo poo poo poo poo poo" and the rest is history.

I think it would've been super cool to get an EotW from the PoVs of the characters who Knew Things.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2020 06:24

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Gnoman posted:

Narratively, the sisters hipunting the Black in the tower serve a reasonable purpose - it gives you a grouo that is primed to believe Verin and Egwene. Since everyone they have caught is on the list, they trust that it is right.

I think it also functions as an insight into Aes Sedai and the Tower from a perspective that is NOT one of our main characters. That's actually pretty interesting, to have an inside opinion instead of our usual antagonistic outside one.

In that vein, I think you start it earlier. Or at least introduce the characters earlier. Have Pevara or Seane come to Fal Dara in TGH, have a couple of them pop up in TDR (ie, one interacts with Mat, one with one of the girls, and so on). Then when they get their act together and do a thing as a group it's vaguely-established characters instead of a bunch of complete randos.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2020 12:59

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I think the difference is probably mostly academic. There's not very many Cairhienin noblewomen who are Aes Sedai (we know of only one other, IIRC?) so I don't think it'd be a far leap to identifying Moiraine if one were familiar with the nobility there... but knowing her house name doesn't really do Thom any immediate good that I can think of. It's not like she was involved with anything that concerned him, family-that-she-doesn't-like aside.

# ¿ Jan 11, 2021 16:46

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Anias posted:

Yeah I agree with this. Whitebridge is dead simple, gives a lot of wow factor to transition to a bigger city, and lets you keep your next scene cut in close in generic inn set of some sort. Easy win for the budget.

And it also sets the stakes for Tar Valon's architectural hold-my-beer, which is pretty cool imo.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2021 07:01

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

On Black Ajah unswearing, the Black Ajah hunters showed us that actually removing the oaths is a pretty trivial, if painful, process. It's possible that one of the oaths might prevent a sister from doing it herself, on her own, but it's demonstrated that they're not inviolable and Aes Sedai are trained to mind-game themselves around the Three Oaths anyway. The hardest part would probably be obtaining the Oath Rod itself to do the deed with.

I think the big thing is that basically none of the Black would want to unswear their oaths. They're Black for a reason, after all. The major reason to want out would be the Dragon's return, for those who aren't True Believers (like Sheriam), but of course once that's started leaving will definitely be noticed and you'll definitely be killed or worse. It'd probably be noticed and you'd probably be killed in any other time too, but it would certainly be swifter and more painful during the period the books take place in.

And also Aes Sedai are very bad at being wizards and probably wouldn't consider it. IIRC it wasn't even really known that you COULD unswear Oaths on the Rod.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2021 13:25

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Gwaihir posted:

That does bring to mind one of my (many) all time favorite scenes, that isn't really a large one in the scheme of the series, but it's the bit after re-integrating his memories as Lews Therin when Rand meets with Cadsuane and Min to talk about going to visit the Borderlanders at Far Madding. She calls him boy, as usual, and he just sorta quietly chuckles and goes 'Really now, cmon, I'm over 450, and I'm the only properly raised male Aes Sedai in existence, and you're still going to do that bit?' It's just such a funny dramatic shift from everything that had happened up until that point in previous books.

And then he tries it on Moiraine and she goes "really now, does that actually work on people?" :allears:

# ¿ Feb 4, 2021 03:38

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Soysaucebeast posted:

They used to be awesome. Amazon changed them all to these ones a while ago. There not bad, but they're trying a little too hard to be modern and minimalist in my opinion. The artistic covers from a few years ago were way better in my opinion.

They... are aware that the serpent-eating-its-own-tail is just a circle, right? Not an infinity?

Because it's literally a ring that Aes Sedai wear.

e: or am I a dummy that never noticed the chapter icon was a snake? Jury is out, I don't have a book to look at.

bio347 fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Feb 7, 2021

# ¿ Feb 7, 2021 14:30

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

So uh... where's the sheath? And why's it in a box? Boxes aren't sheaths!

# ¿ Feb 18, 2021 09:49

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Just in case anyone is curious, the description of the ruby-hilted dagger from Shadar Logoth, from when Rand first sees it in EotW:

Flight Down the Arinelle posted:

A curved dagger with a gold scabbard worked in strange symbols. Fine gold wire wrapped the hilt, which was capped by a ruby as big as Rand's thumbnail, and the quillons were golden-scaled serpents baring their fangs.

I guess the ruby is about the right size, and it's probably where it is because it's easier to see while being wielded, but it just feels wrong for an object whose primary descriptor in the books is "ruby-hilted" to be... not.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2021 11:59

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I've always thought it was pretty clever to create a universe that is explicitly under narrative control. Existence itself has A Way It's Going To Go and it will create Main Characters to get it there.

Spek posted:

Though it could also just be that ta'veren are super rare. I don't know how common ta'veren are. My vague memory of Moiraine's description of them made it sound like minor ta'veren are fairly common but who knows. I don't think we learn of any other than Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

IIRC the only other that's named in the books is Hawkwing (which makes the Seanchan's stance extra-odd). I think the thing with more minor ta'veren is that, if there were any (the Wheel might've just preferred the three big ones for this set piece after all), we probably wouldn't notice them. They'd be swept up by the ridiculous narrative strength of one of the main ones just as easily as normal people, and anything merely "odd" is easily dismissed in light of, like, all of the major PoV characters being prodigies in their own right.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2021 05:44

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I think that defining Egwene's success as "luck" is probably pretty close to the actuality. She's in so close with the three ta'veren that she basically gets flung along the rapids of their twisting of fate. The Pattern wanted her places but instead of being ta'veren herself it used the others to slingshot her around.

The Aes Sedai stuff she gets involved in is more or less completely divorced from the boys, but then again... Mat was in the Tower for a bit in tDR and briefly in Salidar as well later on. I've always sorta wondered... how much damage did his presence cause that just... nobody noticed?

OTOH, she's one of a very small group of people to be more or less immune to Rand's ta'veren shenanigans so maybe there's something special going on there too.

Khizan posted:

Lews Therin, though I guess you could just count him and Rand together.

Does anyone ever actually say that Lews Therin was? It seems pretty much a given, but it's not like we have much direct testimony to go on.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2021 11:16

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I think starting with New Spring is probably a bad idea. Why would you want to wreck the mystique of the Aes Sedai so early? The first few books practically ride on it.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2021 04:01

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

It's me. I'm the weirdo who liked Crossroads of Twilight at the time.

To be fair, it was the first book I had to wait for, and it wasn't the full duration of the wait, so the experience might have beem blunted somewhat.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2021 09:06

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Libluini posted:

If you read what Jordan writes a bit closer, you realize all those cultures are wrong about this, however. That's the joke.

It's also the One Power. The. One. Power. Jordan writes several times how Saidin and Saidar are linked. It's not really two separate forces .

The logical conclusion from this is that gender binary people probably can use both at the same time, or one or the other, depending on where they fall on the line between male and female.

The greatest wonders of the Age of Legends were, after all, performed by men and women working together as one. The real triumph of the taint was the shattering of that cooperation.

ninjoatse.cx posted:

Another consideration is that the pattern wouldn't bestow the ability to channel for those who didn't display a strong singular gender identity. We've seen this with ta'varen, where, no matter how reluctant at first, the pattern keeps throwing curve balls at them until they eventually accept their destiny... which they always do accept. 100% of the time. The pattern seems to have foreknowledge about who they are, what they will be, and how their choices will play out in life.

It does seem like an answer could be "the Pattern puts souls into the bodies that they would be most comfortable with", given that the universe is pretty explicitly something constructed and programmed. I don't really know if that's satisfying or even particularly good, though.

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

Aran'gar iirc was a sex pest and Jordan was going for irony more then a statement on trans imho.

It's probably somehow notable that Balthamel is really the only Forsaken who was explicitly bad (or perhaps "evil" is a better term?) BEFORE the Bore was drilled.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2021 14:43

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Vavrek posted:

Semirhage. Semirhage's sadism was all her own. Balthamel's tendency toward violence was way more obvious, though. (Source: Big Book of Bad Art.)

Cavelcade posted:

Semirhage suggests you beg to differ.

Yeah. Yeah...

I hesitated over Semirhage because she was still a Healer and at least presenting some sort of utilitarian good.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2021 16:25

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I do love that Osan'gar couldn't help himself and reintroduced Actual Healing to the Asha'man. Might have been part of the "keep Rand alive" plan but it's still such an incredibly shortsighted move.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 01:48

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Vavrek posted:

Lanfear: ATTACK AND DETHRONE ~~GOD~~ SATAN

Bit of a sidetrack, but that's what she says and I do wonder how truthful she was being. Particularly given the very end - I've always loved the pun that "Cyndane" is.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 03:26

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Saidin is also weird around Ebou Dar during Rand's campaign and it unnerves the gently caress out of Osan'gar, which further points to the bowl of the winds (because it used saidin and the gateway failure didn't).

# ¿ Mar 23, 2021 04:15

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

The most glaring example is when he tries to nuke Ebou Dar, but am I wrong in thinking that Rand's physical reaction to saidin gets worse the more horrific his intent is?

I don't think it's specifically in reaction to immediate intent. He would have trouble simply lighting a pipe in early tGS, for example.

It's almost certainly related to his overall disposition, though, since it gets worse as he does and he's reeeeeally far gone by Ebou Dar redux.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2021 13:37

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I'm trying to remember... is it actually said that Vora's lacks a buffer? We only ever see it once prior to the Sanderson books, right? I guess we have to assume that it doesn't have one, given how it ends, but that seems... odd now that I'm thinking about it. *angreals having buffers is stated as a given.

Callandor is special and specifically-constructed (whether by "accident"-of-the-Wheel or intention) and I had thought its condition was a one-off because of it.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2021 06:00

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Joke's busted, Lanfear would never say her former name out loud. :v:

# ¿ Apr 21, 2021 05:47

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

BigHead posted:

One of my favorite forgotten things in the series is that Nynaeve actually cured insanity in male channelers. Then, with this huge amazing discovery, neither RJ or Sanderson do anything with it, nor do they mention it again, nor do they use it to cure any other channeler. She cures one singular guy and then never talks about it again.

IIRC, she says she'd see to the asha'man at hand but it's like right before she was headed back to the White Tower and the Black Tower hadn't been solved yet so it's not like there was much she could do? There's not a ton of out-and-about male channelers, after all. Everything kicks off relatively shortly after and at that point it's very much a "they're sane enough to go right now, we have bigger things to do, we'll fix them if they're alive after" sort of problem.

# ¿ May 26, 2021 17:47

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Donkey posted:

I thought some Aes Sedai had a discussion about this at some point and the conclusion was that Min's visions don't actually have to come true but if they don't then the wheel is broken, the pattern's screwed up, and everybody is probably totally hosed.

They do. It's in The Gathering Storm during the Dark Rand phase. Specifically, it's in relation to one of Cadsuane's Aes Sedai not being freaked out about Rand, because Min has seen stuff that says they win so why bother worrying about it?

So, Min's visions can only possibly be not true if they refer to events that happen AFTER the Dragon's victory, because the Pattern is still functioning right up until the theoretical point where the Dark One breaks it. TBH, it's a very missed opportunity to have her go "oh gently caress, but I was wrong about Moiraine" and have people absolutely panic for a bit.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2021 13:04

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

I think it's also probably important to consider that the Pattern is an active participant in the fate of the world. Like, how much of Ishmael's meddling - hell, even his being half-bound in the first place - is the Dark One's power being able to defy the Pattern, and how much of it is the Pattern itself demanding conditions for the Dragon Reborn?

# ¿ Sep 15, 2021 09:37

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Huh. I had always kinda assumed that Else was killed in that last scene on the farm. We never see her after that (right?), and it seems very un-Jordan-like to not conserve a character.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2021 06:55

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 23:28

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Oh huh, you're right. I have no clue why I got that crossed up.

Still kinda weird Else never recurred though.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2021 07:46

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > [BOOK SPOILERS] Robert Jordan's Waste of Time -- so cheesy but so good

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