Democratic Pres. Primary 2020: The moderator just starts throwing a rock at Sanders

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Democratic Pres. Primary 2020: The moderator just starts throwing a rock at Sanders

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papa horny michael: Aug 18, 2009; by Pragmatica

I was only kidding with that last part.

# ? Jan 30, 2020 23:43

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# ? May 2, 2024 21:17

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

oxsnard posted:

I literally met with EPA region 7 enforcement yesterday. Enforcement cases pursued in this region (Midwest) in 2019 were up 20% and fines and penalties were up 50%. They're rolling out a nationwide enforcement focused on RMP inspections with an emphasis on states who do a bad job or enforcing rules.

What the EPA does on a daily basis is unchanged. Almost every standard has been maintained as prohibition on backsliding is literally part of all the big regulations. Trump and his cronies arent competent enough to actually demolish the EPA. They pulled funding from some long term projects (bad) and tried to give some loopholes to a few specific industries and activities (bad as well), but the framework for what the agency does is still there.

That's great about the Midwest, but overall enforcement is massively down under Trump:

quote:

Indeed, President Trump�s stated agenda for EPA is to eliminate the agency �in almost every form� and leave behind only �tidbits.� Brady Dennis, EPA Head Defends White House�s Plan for Massive Cuts to His Agency, Wash. Post, June 15, 2017. Beginning in 2017, Trump has consistently sought a greater than 30 percent reduction in spending at EPA, the staff of which is already 8 percent smaller than it was at the start of the current administration. J. Eilperin et al., New EPA Documents Reveal Even Deeper Proposed Cuts to Staff and Programs, Wash. Post, Mar. 31, 2017; B. Dennis et al., With a Shrinking EPA, Trump Delivers on His Promise to Cut Government, Wash. Post, Sept. 8, 2018. The largest cuts at EPA have been those at the Office of Compliance and Enforcement, the staff of which is 16 percent smaller than it was just two years ago.

A wide range of EPA enforcement statistics, from total actions commenced to fines and penalties collected to the number of negotiated settlements, show extraordinary declines under the Trump administration. For example, in 2018, total penalties collected by EPA dropped at least 55 percent compared with averages during the previous two decades, and the total number of compliance inspections performed by EPA has fallen by half since 2010. J. Eilperin & B. Dennis, Civil Penalties for Polluters Dropped Dramatically in Trump�s First Two Years, Analysis Shows, Wash. Post, Jan. 24, 2019; J. Eilperin & B. Dennis, Under Trump, EPA Inspections Fall to a 10-Year Low, Wash. Post, Feb. 8, 2019.

EPA officials have argued that individual states and territories can pick up the slack left by steep cuts in federal environmental inspections and enforcement. Such arguments don�t hold up, though, as budget cuts at many state agencies, fed by reductions in federal funding, are driving declines, not increases, in state-level inspection and enforcement. Institute for Policy Integrity New York University School of Law, Irreplaceable: Why States Can�t and Won�t Make Up for Inadequate Federal Enforcement of Environmental Laws, June 2017.

Less enforcement, more pollution
The decline in federal and state enforcement and inspection programs described above is exposing Americans to higher levels of pollution. From 2015 to 2018, inspections of large water pollution discharge permit holders declined by 8 percent, while serious incidents of water pollution increased by 10 percent (rising from 1,507 to 1,659). U.S. Environmental Protection Agency: Enforcement and Compliance History Online: State Water Dashboard. Similarly, inspections at facilities regulated under the Clean Air Act also dropped between 2015 and 2018, correlating with a striking 28 percent increase in high profile violations at such facilities (rising from 362 to 462). Id.

This means trouble for our health and welfare. Whether due to the abandonment of efforts to control methane flaring in North Dakota, the loosening of selenium and sulfur dioxide restrictions at power plants in West Virginia and Texas, or the significant delays related to regulating chlorpyrifos in California farm fields, countless Americans are less safe due to the increases in pollution associated with President Trump�s desire to eliminate EPA �in almost every form.� S. Eder et al., This Is Our Reality Now, N.Y. Times, Dec. 27, 2018. The damage will fall most seriously on people of color, as shown by studies like that by Dr. Robert Bullard, Distinguished Professor at the Barbara Jordan-Mickey Leland School of Public Affairs at Texas Southern University, who famously demonstrated that �poor whites do better than middle-class blacks,� when it comes to exposure to pollution, because of inequitable housing policies, barriers to full participation in permit proceedings, and the resulting concentration of toxic activities in heavily-minority neighborhoods.

(https://www.americanbar.org/groups/environment_energy_resources/publications/trends/2018-2019/july-august-2019/doing-less-with-less/)

papa horny michael posted:

Yeah. People are forgetting the bureaucracy of large organizations is ruled by inertia. Read some Dilbert, you goobers.

Yeah and losing 1,500 people is a great way to change organizational inertia:

quote:

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) reportedly lost 8 percent of its staff in the first 18 months of President Trump's administration due to high numbers of departing staffers and a low number of new hires.

The Washington Post reported Saturday that nearly 1,600 workers left the EPA during that time, while fewer than 400 were hired. The agency's employment has shrunk to its lowest levels since the Reagan administration, the Post noted.

According to data retrieved by the Post under a Freedom of Information Act request, the EPA has lost as many as 260 scientists, 106 engineers and 185 �environmental protection specialists," numbers which include both longtime veterans of the department and less experienced employees.

The departures have raised fears of a loss of experience at the agency, the Post reported. According to the paper, a number of employees left their posts citing discontent with new policy directions under the Trump administration.

�I felt it was time to leave given the irresponsible, ongoing diminishment of agency resources, which has recklessly endangered our ability to execute our responsibilities as public servants,� one former EPA scientist, Ann Williamson, told the Post.

�I did not want to any longer be any part of this administration�s nonsense,� she added.

(https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/405736-epa-lost-more-than-1500-workers-in-first-18-months-of-trump)

Or there is a great account from someone actually at the EPA

quote:

Elizabeth Southerland: Without exaggerating, it was fairly traumatic for me and my whole staff. We had worked on that rule for over eight years through very extensive data collection, both from industry and from our own-data collection services. We had also had multiple opportunities for the industry and the public to comment on this rule during this prolonged eight-year process. And what we found happened under the new Trump administration is that Scott Pruitt met with coal industry people and the next day he announced that he was going to reconsider the rule and was going to delay its implementation immediately without ever discussing it, for even five minutes, with those of us who had worked eight years to develop this rule. So I was aware right at the beginning that that�s how this administration was going to operate, the repeal of everything the Obama administration did.

e360: I imagine you had communication with Pruitt regarding this suspension?

Southerland: We immediately requested a chance to brief Scott Pruitt. We never heard back from him. All we saw was a draft press release that he had his press office apparently draft that said that he had made the decision to reconsider [the rule] and was going to delay its implementation for several years while he revisited the whole idea of any regulation on coal-fired power plants. So the briefing for Pruitt on this occurred only after he had announced to the public that he was going to delay and reconsider it.
...
Southerland: What I perceived is that the new administration came into the EPA with complete contempt for the career staff in the agency. Not once did they talk to any of us about all these rules that they�ve been requested by industry to repeal. And instead, Scott Pruitt met solely with industry representatives and again, just as they did in the case of the coal-fired power plant rule that I worked on, in every case, they met solely with industry representatives and then announced to staff that they were going to reconsider and delay all these rules that have been years of in the making. So it was the complete and utter contempt for the career staff and the further commitment to do whatever industry asked them to do without question.

e360: Regardless of science?

Southerland: Regardless of science and regardless of the law. There are many, many lawsuits on the actions that have been taken by the EPA to date. And already the courts are rendering decisions against the EPA�s actions. There are over six rules that the EPA has delayed because it wanted to repeal them and those delays have all been overturned by the courts as not conforming with law. So it�s not just that the actions of this administration failed to follow science and evidence and facts, but they are also in many cases unlawful.
...
e360: I�m assuming you keep in touch with some of your former colleagues at EPA. What�s the temperature around the water cooler like these days at the agency?

Southerland: There�s just a complete morale bust. I mean almost everyone believes that the change from Pruitt to Wheeler is one of just no more outward corruption like Scott Pruitt displayed with his use of the perks of his office. Andrew Wheeler certainly is not doing that. But they do believe that Andrew Wheeler is just as devoted to carrying out every request that industry gives them. And so whatever the chemical industry, or the oil and gas industry, or the agribusiness groups ask for, he will do without question and without consultation with career staff.

e360: What are you hopes for the agency, perhaps not in the near term, but looking out a few years from now?

Southerland: There are a number of groups that have formed that are already working on a plan for the future for the EPA. What we certainly are looking at is the importance of better managing the public awareness of how important the agency is and how important it is to have a staff that�s capable of carrying out the statutory requirements that they have. So these different groups � one of them that I�m involved in is called the Lazarus Project � involve academics and former EPA officials and people who are very active in the environmental field. They are working to prepare a transition for hopefully a new administration in 2020 that can immediately set to work rebuilding the agency, just as this administration came in with the very detailed plan on how to dismantle it.

(https://e360.yale.edu/features/an-inside-look-at-how-trump-turned-the-epa-into-an-industry-subsidiary)

Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jan 30, 2020

# ? Jan 30, 2020 23:46

trilobite terror: Oct 20, 2007; BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Feldegast42 posted:

What if their employment contract regards work that is highly illegal and morally wrong? Would it be alright to violate that contract then?

Friendly reminder we hung nazis high who said that they were "only following orders"

Yeah, and we also hired and repatriated a lot more of them to the US to build our aerospace and military programs. And we helped stabilize the careers of a ton more. Who do you think made up like 70%+ of the West German government up through the 70s?

Walter Scheel and Kurt G Kiesinger were both former Party members. Almost 80% of the Ministry of Justice in the late 50s were former members. Hans Globke helped draft the Nuremberg Laws.

And that�s not counting all of the many upstanding members of society like Drs and lawyers and businessfolk who were just forgiven, despite many of them having gleefully participated in the destruction of the holocaust. Or all the former soldiers and SS officers who went on to live civilian lives.

To get the sort of justice you�re describing in Germany we would�ve had to basically liquidate the country.

Mat Cauthon posted:

Pretty sure we can find a loophole for guards at the camps who engage in systematic assault and torture of immigrants, up to and including leaving children to sleep in freezing cells and eat frozen, rotting food (when they aren't snatching those children from their parents so they can be "adopted" by white evangelicals off the books).

Then you hire a prosecutor and charge them, you dummy. And you send that prosecutor after the people who gave them the orders and you lay out that the conduct was unconscionable and illegal.

You don�t use the loophole tactics that the GOP uses to go after climate scientists and NOAA employees. You don�t weaken the regulatory state in the name of progressive goals, because that ultimately always ends up hurting the progressive cause.

# ? Jan 30, 2020 23:47

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Electric Bugaloo posted:

You don�t use the loophole tactics that the GOP uses to go after climate scientists and NOAA employees. You don�t weaken the regulatory state in the name of progressive goals, because that ultimately always ends up hurting the progressive cause.

Now this is some liberal brainworms poo poo right here. If the GOP has already gone there all on their lonesome, then how exactly is using their own tactics against them going to weaken the regulatory state? This poo poo is already the norm.

# ? Jan 30, 2020 23:57

Mahoning: Feb 3, 2007

Seems like this is one of the big bombs they�re gonna act like will sink Bernie...

https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1222982634235736064?s=21

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:03

goethe.cx: Apr 23, 2014

Mahoning posted:

Seems like this is one of the big bombs they�re gonna act like will sink Bernie...

https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1222982634235736064?s=21

Lol that�s weak. He�s saying the same things as he�s said about Trump: that Wallace was awful but knows how to appeal to people�s base instincts

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:08

ded redd: Aug 1, 2010

Mahoning posted:

Seems like this is one of the big bombs they�re gonna act like will sink Bernie...

https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1222982634235736064?s=21

I don't think this is even new. At least re-litigating the F35 program gave us a meanass Bernie photoshop.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:08

Mahoning: Feb 3, 2007

https://twitter.com/theonion/status/1222989139739660288?s=21

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:09

I AM GRANDO: Aug 20, 2006

goethe.cx posted:

Since we�re on the subject of unions ITT

https://twitter.com/dailydot/status/1222345870370385926?s=21

Furries are comrades. They fight for freedom.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:12

ded redd: Aug 1, 2010

https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1223020773109063681

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:14

Unoriginal Name: Aug 1, 2006; by sebmojo

Strong defenders of the rights concentration camp guards ITT

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:16

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

That comparison to McGovern and Wallace sounds awfully familiar...as if history repeats or something.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:16

drawkcab si eman ym: Jan 2, 2006

Mahoning posted:

https://twitter.com/theonion/status/1222989139739660288?s=21

Made for VP.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:37

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

https://twitter.com/ZacharySauer4/status/1223027080159469569?s=20

Turns out this lunatic anti Sanders guy is a huge bigot lmao

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:48

Phi230: Feb 2, 2016; by Fluffdaddy

oxsnard posted:

you see, union busting is fine when it lines up with my other ideologies

Cops aren't workers so tough titty, you dumb lib

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:54

Mat Cauthon: Jan 2, 2006; The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.

oxsnard posted:

https://twitter.com/ZacharySauer4/status/1223027080159469569?s=20

Turns out this lunatic anti Sanders guy is a huge bigot lmao

How are those two accounts connected?

Not that I don't believe it, I'm just curious how that got dug up.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:55

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/742881838100684801?s=20

It wasn't secret, he changed his handle

Edit: https://twitter.com/sarahkendzior/status/742855290668748800?s=20

# ? Jan 31, 2020 00:57

PerniciousKnid: Sep 13, 2006

Unoriginal Name posted:

Strong defenders of the rights concentration camp guards ITT

Weird thing about human rights is some humans are bad.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:01

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

PerniciousKnid posted:

Weird thing about human rights is some humans are bad.

Tell me more about the human right to work as a concentration camp guard.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:04

Mat Cauthon: Jan 2, 2006; The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.

Oh he's one of those guys who rebranded to be taken seriously but didn't actually learn anything.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:04

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Cerebral Bore posted:

Tell me more about the human right to work as a concentration camp guard.

I don't think anyone here likes ICE agents, but if you can't comprehend why a single elected official being allowed to circumvent Congress and fire 20,000 union employees sets a dangerous standard than I don't know what to tell you.

Like, Sanders has to operate within the law or he'll fail, you do understand that, right?

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:07

drawkcab si eman ym: Jan 2, 2006

Sanders looking like he will go 3/4 or 2/3 in the early primaries/caucuses.

I am not the biggest fan of the 538 model giving Sanders a 10% chance of receiving 11% of the vote (Gephardt 04) in IA. It still has Biden at 1/2 of winning the nom (1700 delegates to 1300). Feel like it is too back-ended because it might not be pricing in an IA bounce for Sanders or other candidates dropping out & having their support go to Sen. Sanders.

drawkcab si eman ym fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jan 31, 2020

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:09

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

This 1972 Sanders article is just another sad example of him publicly criticizing members of the Democratic party in an election year

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:17

KIM JONG TRILL: Nov 29, 2006; GIN AND JUCHE

Donald Trump was right about the media lol

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:17

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

oxsnard posted:

I don't think anyone here likes ICE agents, but if you can't comprehend why a single elected official being allowed to circumvent Congress and fire 20,000 union employees sets a dangerous standard than I don't know what to tell you.

Like, Sanders has to operate within the law or he'll fail, you do understand that, right?

Tell me more about how running concentration camps is totally fine under international law.

E: Or to be less facetious, the good part about America being a demon cracker nation is that you could nail most everybody that needs nailing on human rights violations if the will was there.

Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jan 31, 2020

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:20

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Cerebral Bore posted:

Tell me more about how running concentration camps is totally fine under international law.

I'm all for sending the people responsible for crimes to be sent to the Hague but your histrionics has exactly gently caress all to do with unilaterally dissolving a union and firing all employees, jfc

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:22

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

oxsnard posted:

I'm all for sending the people responsible for crimes to be sent to the Hague but your histrionics has exactly gently caress all to do with unilaterally dissolving a union and firing all employees, jfc

Just because you call yourself a union doesn't make you one, which is another thing you liberals need to start understanding and fast. Cop unions aren't unions.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:24

goethe.cx: Apr 23, 2014

drawkcab si eman ym posted:

Sanders looking like he will go 3/4 or 2/3 in the early primaries/caucuses.

I am not the biggest fan of the 538 model giving Sanders a 10% chance of receiving 11% of the vote (Gephardt 04) in IA. It still has Biden at 1/2 of winning the nom (1700 delegates to 1300). Feel like it is too back-ended because it might not be pricing in an IA bounce for Sanders or other candidates dropping out & having their support go to Sen. Sanders.

538 had an article today looking at historical polling before Iowa versus the actual result. There�s a shitload of variation and unexpected results hence the wide interval

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:25

mcmagic: Jul 1, 2004; If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

oxsnard posted:

I'm all for sending the people responsible for crimes to be sent to the Hague but your histrionics has exactly gently caress all to do with unilaterally dissolving a union and firing all employees, jfc

ICE and CBP need to be completely ended. Not reformed or fixed. They need to not exist. So yes. Dissolve the union and fire every employee. And the president can do that.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:25

drawkcab si eman ym: Jan 2, 2006

John Wick of Dogs posted:

This 1972 Sanders article is just another sad example of him publicly criticizing members of the Democratic party in an election year

Bad omen for Clinton 16. Lack of party apparatus probably hurts him in the general.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:26

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

I think its reasonable for CBP guards who knowingly allowed or failed to prevent harm to those in their care to keep their pensions, layoff payouts, and their voting rights in prison.

edit: after restitution of course.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:27

drawkcab si eman ym: Jan 2, 2006

goethe.cx posted:

538 had an article today looking at historical polling before Iowa versus the actual result. There�s a shitload of variation and unexpected results hence the wide interval

Yeah hard to predict Iowa caucus turnout especially, which ends up hurting the predictive model for the entire Dem nomination. Wonder how the other predictive markets see things differently than the New York Times-owned 538 run by Uni of Chicago Alum Nate Silver.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:31

Gripweed: Nov 8, 2018; ASK ME ABOUT MY
UNITED STATES MARINES
FUNKO POPS COLLECTION

Pete canvassers can't even convince the people letting them stay in their homes to vote for Pete

https://twitter.com/PeteForAmerica/status/1222897525243305984?s=20

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:31

KIM JONG TRILL: Nov 29, 2006; GIN AND JUCHE

mcmagic posted:

ICE and CBP need to be completely ended. Not reformed or fixed. They need to not exist. So yes. Dissolve the union and fire every employee. And the president can do that.

ICE and CBP absolutely need to be ended, but it is also a really bad idea to normalize the President busting public employee unions. Fire the management. Re-direct all of the employees to perform other duties and then get the bill to abolish ICE/CBP passed. Send everyone complicit to the Hague.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:32

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

KIM JONG TRILL posted:

ICE and CBP absolutely need to be ended, but it is also a really bad idea to normalize the President busting public employee unions. Fire the management. Re-direct all of the employees to perform other duties and then get the bill to abolish ICE/CBP passed. Send everyone complicit to the Hague.

Correct, but why you gotta be such a lib?

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:33

Ague Proof: Jun 5, 2014; they told me
I was everything

Gripweed posted:

Pete canvassers can't even convince the people letting them stay in their homes to vote for Pete

https://twitter.com/PeteForAmerica/status/1222897525243305984?s=20

Doesn't this violate the third amendment?

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:34

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

You don't even have to fire anyone. As I've said before there are a million ways by with a Bernie admin can completely neuter ICE.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:34

selec: Sep 6, 2003

1. Iowa elections officials are anticipating 25-30% increase in participation this year. I follow a few of the local officials on Twitter and they kvetch about how hard it�s been to find locations big enough for expected turnout. They are stressed as hell rn.

2. $27 more to Bernie over this dumb George Wallace poo poo. We will teach our enemies the lesson over and over: smear him with poo poo and we�ll turn it into gold.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:42

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

I am sad nobody likes my idea of relocating them to the Alaska/Canada border

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:43

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# ? May 2, 2024 21:17

trilobite terror: Oct 20, 2007; BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Cerebral Bore posted:

Just because you call yourself a union doesn't make you one, which is another thing you liberals need to start understanding and fast. Cop unions aren't unions.

Okay- first off, don't adopt that loving language with us.

We are not "liberals" and you are not lefter than we are because we understand the difference between a lawless president and a president who operates under the framework that they are attempting to uphold and maintain. You don't bring about a dramatic leftward shift in the country, a shift for "bigger government", and immediately start playing legal calvinball like that.

I mean, just from the outset- he'd be hammered by a Supreme Court lawsuit that he'd undoubtedly lose. Now before you say "what about court packing-" that IS within the rules of the game. Congress has the power to pack the courts if they want. A president does not have the power to unilaterally dissolve an agency, and that precedent shouldn't be set.

At this point I'm fairly certain you're either a gimmick poster or a concern troll or exactly the kind of "activist" that Bernie Sanders doesn't need. Go participate in some real antifa poo poo if that will make you feel accomplished but accusing us of being fascist sympathizers is horseshit that will accomplish nothing for you.

# ? Jan 31, 2020 01:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Democratic Pres. Primary 2020: The moderator just starts throwing a rock at Sanders

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