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Ariong posted:Thank you everyone for the advice. I always figured that, for example, spark bolt with trigger into spark bolt would just result in the first spark bolt hitting the enemy and a second one flying in a random direction away from the enemy. It certainly helps to explain the existence of the strange multicast options. Do you have enough mana for all of the spells?
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Apr 18, 2024 11:22
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Letmebefrank posted:Do you have enough mana for all of the spells? Easily. Here are the full stats of the wand. Shuffle: No Spells/Cast: 4 Cast Delay: 0.07s Recharge Time: 1.17s Mana Max: 480 Mana Charge Speed: 10 Capacity: 5 Spread: -4.0 deg. I think at the end of that clip I might have run low on mana due to the bad mana charge speed, but at the beginning of the clip you can see I nail a direct hit with enough mana for every effect and it deals 9 damage, with at least one of the magic arrows going sailing off to the right.
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Apr 18, 2024 11:29
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Is that Magic Arrow missing because your triggered spell is making another triggered spell, and the second trigger misses? I think it's generally better to have one triggered spell make multiple other spells inside the enemy (with modifiers like Double Spell) rather than chaining triggers together.
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Apr 18, 2024 12:55
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I will say that sometimes the game doesn't properly display damage on trigger spells, too. I'm still pretty new, but I had one that was spark bolt with trigger, some triple effect, and then three acid ball thingies. The damage readout was always really low, but every organic I hit with that thing died.
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Apr 18, 2024 13:37
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Yeah, you have created a wand that first fires a spark bolt that fires a spark bolt that fires a magic arrow, then fires a spark bolt that fires a magic arrow, then recharges/cools down. Your first shot hits an enemy with two spark bolts and makes them fart a magic arrow unless they're large enough for both triggers to happen inside of them. Chaining trigger spells like that can sometimes be worthwhile (it's very funny with tentacles with timers, or if everything is homing or something), but it's usually not super useful on straight projectile spells. Just stick to a "one trigger per payload" formula for now.
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Apr 18, 2024 13:38
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Is that Magic Arrow missing because your triggered spell is making another triggered spell, and the second trigger misses? I think it's generally better to have one triggered spell make multiple other spells inside the enemy (with modifiers like Double Spell) rather than chaining triggers together. To test this I made a wand that goes: Reduce recharge time, spark bolt with trigger, triple scatter spell, magic bolt, magic bolt, magic bolt. That seems to work… sometimes.  What’s causing the inconsistency?
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Apr 18, 2024 13:54
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Purely anecdotal, but I find that scatter spell mods (or triplicate shot specifically) can be kinda fucky in setups like that, maybe because their built-in +deviation makes the projectiles spawn at unpredictable angles. To be honest my favourite solution to finicky trigger behaviour is "chainsaw payloads." Chainsaws will always behave the same way, they will meaningfully damage just about everything, they're great for speeding up wands, you can use 'em to carve through softer terrain, you can use 'em to slice worms up for worm blood, etc. etc. When you shoot something with a chainsaw payload, you can be 100% sure that it's eating 100% of those chainsaws. A chainsaw payload wand - either comically rapid-fire or loaded up with a ton of +damage effects, or ideally both - will absolutely shithouse the majority of enemies, and I heartily recommend trying one out at the earliest opportunity. Just, uh, be careful shooting it at anything that bleeds nasty poo poo like lava or acid.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:23
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The bog standard trigger spell setup should look something like this: [Projectile with trigger] -> [Any spell modifiers you can find that increase damage] -> [Multicast] -> [As many projectile spells as the multicast allows for] For example: [Spark bolt with trigger] -> [Damage plus] -> [Freezing shot] -> [Doublecast] -> [Spark bolt] -> [Bouncing shot] All of the modifier spells get applied to every spell in the multicast, which in this case makes them twice as effective. If you can get a triplicate bolt, then each individual bolt gets all of the modifiers on them, which is a further x3 multiplier. The other thing I'll say is that a wand of firebolts is a good thing to have as a backup, and remains useful for a surprisingly long time. Large/giant firebolts carry you even further. They do excellent single-shot damage, can dig, and you get enough from one spell's worth to carry you through most zones if you use them effectively. Robotic enemies tend to resist pretty much everything except explosions and lightning, and firebolts do explosive damage, so they're good for taking out robots.
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Apr 18, 2024 15:04
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What exactly is the deal with Chainsaw? I’ve tinkered with it and it makes little sense to me. For example, right now I have a starter wand with two slots. If I put in spark bolt, then chainsaw, it fires slightly slower than if the chainsaw wasn’t there. If I put in chainsaw, then spark bolt, it fires slightly faster. I don’t understand why it is different. It also doesn’t seem to have a particularly good effect on speed either way.
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Apr 18, 2024 15:35
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Cast delay and refresh can happen simultaneously, chainsaw sets cast delay to 0. Spark bolt then chainsaw: Spark bolt -> (cast delay from wand + spark bolt) -> chainsaw -> (wand refresh) Chainsaw then spark bolt: Chainsaw -> (0 cast delay) -> spark bolt -> (cast delay from wand + spark bolt, simultaneous with refresh). Multicasting with a chainsaw as the last spell means that the last spell sets cast delay to 0. Try that same chainsaw -> spark bolt combo, but put a draw two before the spark bolt. It'll wrap back around to casting the chainsaw spell a second time, which both sets the cast delay to 0 and gives you a second instance of -recharge delay 
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Apr 18, 2024 16:10
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Ariong posted:Spells/Cast: 4 This will make wand building more difficult. It's still doable, of course
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Apr 18, 2024 16:40
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Ariong posted:To test this I made a wand that goes: Reduce recharge time, spark bolt with trigger, triple scatter spell, magic bolt, magic bolt, magic bolt. That seems to work… sometimes. Did you pick up the projectile duplication perk? That will break virtually every wand build, especially if they depend on trigger spells. Edit: if you don't mind mild spoilers, the old man has a good "wands 101" video: https://youtu.be/-W4o-6_omXI dobbymoodge fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 17:00
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i don't think i've seen mentioned yet that the Spells/cast not being 1 on the wand in question (e: from last page  ) is probably complicating things, too. That stat line works almost-but-not-quite the same as the double, triple, etc. modifier spells
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Apr 18, 2024 17:22
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Am I to right to guess that a higher spells per cast wand is more of a "Drop the zaniest cluster of poo poo" wand? I'm not sure that I would want those built like machine guns.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:25
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Veryslightlymad posted:Am I to right to guess that a higher spells per cast wand is more of a "Drop the zaniest cluster of poo poo" wand? I'm not sure that I would want those built like machine guns.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:28
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They’re also generally harder to make good wands with. The vast majority of multicast wands have annoyingly large cast delays.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:30
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dobbymoodge posted:Did you pick up the projectile duplication perk? That will break virtually every wand build, especially if they depend on trigger spells. I can’t remember what perks I had during that run. Is there a way to make the HUD visible in replays? Thanks for the recommendation. crimedog posted:This will make wand building more difficult. It's still doable, of course True but I think I did successfully make the wand I was trying to make in that instance.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:49
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I didn't know this for the longest time but you can tell a wand will be multicast if it has multiple tips on the 'model'/sprite. Just a neat detail that I appreciate. I think for me finding wands with Always Cast Giant Firebolt, or always cast "Homing" of some kind are my favourite (and inevitably lead to my demise when I get overconfident). Always Cast Circle of Acid lead to me briefly experimenting 'can I outrun it'. Results: no. Are all spells eligible to show up as an always cast? Or are they only picked from a limited pool? DarkDobe fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 17:50
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Ciaphas posted:they can be built as machine guns; it's just that there's goofy idiosyncracies with spell wrapping that could interfere with e.g. wrapping into chainsaws to reduce recharge enough to actually be a machine gun You don't necessarily have to wrap into the chainsaw, it can just be the last thing in a multicast.
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Apr 18, 2024 18:46
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DarkDobe posted:I didn't know this for the longest time but you can tell a wand will be multicast if it has multiple tips on the 'model'/sprite. There are a few of these, I love lil details like this in games. Spoilered in case people want to find out for themselves Noita Wiki posted:There are a few identifiable relationships between a wand's design and its statistics:
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Apr 18, 2024 19:15
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AUGH. Just had a super promising run going, finally made some progress into the dark area on the left of the first level. I was brought down to low health and tried to make my way back to a health regen pickup I had saved for that purpose. However, I found that my exit route was now filled with liquid, a layer of teleportatium beneath a layer of water beneath a layer of flummoxonium. It was impossible to navigate. The ceiling was too low to fly above it, and in order to get through I had to go down into the water layer, which would instantly wash off the flummoxonium and reverse my direction. I had to try and time my change of arrow key to perfectly match the moment when the water overrode the flummoxonium, which I was never quite sure when it would happen. Furthermore if I tried to hover for long enough to run out of levitation energy, I dropped into the water with enough momentum to hit the layer of teleportatium and lose all my progress. Once I finally got past all that, I hit a pocket of unstable polymorphium right at the end, where there was a ceiling laser firing down. Between the flummoxonium, polymorph, and pile of copper, I ended up with so many movement hindrances that I literally could not move from the spot directly beneath the laser. The worst part is that had previously I predicted that laser would be a problem on my way back and tried to destroy it, but for some reason those dinky little things are invincible. Shooting them just generates an endless amount of copper powder, and firing a black hole at them just leaves them floating in midair, the stuff they were anchored to having been vaporized. So I made a good planning decision but wasn’t allowed to implement it because of a seemingly arbitrary design decision and got killed for it.  EDIT: Woah, weird. My game just crashed. No crash dump. Ariong fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 19:38
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Ariong posted:The worst part is that had previously I predicted that laser would be a problem on my way back and tried to destroy it, but for some reason those dinky little things are invincible. They just have a ton of HP. They're part of the security system for one of the most powerful alchemists, according to my interpretation of the lore, so it makes sense that they would need to be as dangerous as the creatures that patrol the Ancient Laboratory - and any that would interfere in that domain. (e: so it's supported by the lore IMHO, and isn't an arbitrary design decision. It's a dangerous world full of strange and powerful creatures; you may need to become more powerful to contend with it, even mundane-seeming environmental hazards. Knowledge is power.) It sounds like you're having Fun the Noita Way! dobbymoodge fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 19:48
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drat, I shot one for a full minute and gave up when the pile of copper it produced was 10x larger than it and almost reached high enough to block my shots from reaching it. I figured that was my sign that I was engaged in a fruitless endeavor.
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Apr 18, 2024 20:43
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Noita and the associated lore puts me in mind of the Dread Empire novels by Glen Cook, where one of the overarching antagonists is a wizard ordained by the gods (or some similar analog) to both keep the world in order by imprisoning really dangerous monsters and creatures - but also to keep the humans and others at each other's throats and therefore 'under control' and unable to develop too rapidly. Just a meddling rear end in a top hat that flies around on his magical star horse, leaves the world riddled with magical deathraps, and keeps a prison full of demigods on the verge of breaking loose and ruining everything. Exactly the kind of poo poo a bungling witch should be stumbling into.
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Apr 18, 2024 21:07
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Ciaphas posted:i don't think i've seen mentioned yet that the Spells/cast not being 1 on the wand in question (e: from last page Yeah multicast wands plus trigger spells gets really confusing really fast and makes the end result hard to predict. Two things for beginner wand builders: when you fire your wand in the Holy Mountain there’s a test board by the shop that will show the last full loop of spells your wand fired in the order that they fired, and you can use that to troubleshoot or to figure out exactly what your wand is doing Secondly, you can use the statues at either end of the holy mountain for target practice to test damage - they’ll show damage numbers so you can see if your payload wand is working right or if it needs tweaking. Just be aware that they’re durable but still destructible, so testing lumi drills and drilling bolts might not work for long
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Apr 18, 2024 21:54
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DarkDobe posted:Noita and the associated lore puts me in mind of the Dread Empire novels by Glen Cook, where one of the overarching antagonists is a wizard ordained by the gods (or some similar analog) to both keep the world in order by imprisoning really dangerous monsters and creatures - but also to keep the humans and others at each other's throats and therefore 'under control' and unable to develop too rapidly. I think that's the vibe, except there's no equivalent to that ordination in Noita. There might not even be Gods. I think the High Alchemist and certain other enemies are just other Noidat, just slightly further along in their journey than you, perhaps having made different choices than you would have, or having had a different set of choices available for whatever reason. The rationale behind why there are such diverse creatures of wrath are maybe similar to your example, however I think there's more than one jackass meddling with them. I think Minä aspires to be one of these jackasses, but at the start of the game they're no stronger than the average Hiisi, and perhaps only slightly smarter. At the end of the game they're at least stronger.
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Apr 18, 2024 21:54
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dobbymoodge posted:I think that's the vibe, except there's no equivalent to that ordination in Noita. There might not even be Gods. If there's no gods, then who keeps sending steve after me?
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Apr 18, 2024 21:59
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Since cloud saves get massive for this game, I didn't transfer my save file with the crown to my new computer. I've been playing a while on this new file and finally got a god run going. Spent hours on it, slowly made myself invincible again, gathered up materials. Maybe the people who are good at this game can guess how it ended prematurely. Was bringing the essences up to the moon since that's apparently a thing that's easier to do without a sun in the way. No moon radar for no good reason, going through the cloudy areas instead of around. Figured that surely I was high enough to go full out on my teleport wand. Teleported directly into the guy that bleeds polymorphine.
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Apr 18, 2024 22:16
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I forget where I read this, probably in the spoiler section of the wiki, but IIRC (setting lore) there's a god each for Nature, Magic, and Technology, and they're all vying with each other for power. Miina is pretty clearly Magic-aligned, and the Hiisi are Technology-aligned (though they'll use wands if they find them). Presumably these are the gods that are pissed off if you violate a holy mountain...but then why are all of the items in the holy mountain magic-aligned?
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Apr 18, 2024 22:56
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BMan posted:If there's no gods, then who keeps sending steve after me? TooMuchAbstraction posted:I forget where I read this, probably in the spoiler section of the wiki, but IIRC (setting lore) there's a god each for Nature, Magic, and Technology, and they're all vying with each other for power. Miina is pretty clearly Magic-aligned, and the Hiisi are Technology-aligned (though they'll use wands if they find them). Presumably these are the gods that are pissed off if you violate a holy mountain...but then why are all of the items in the holy mountain magic-aligned? IMHO it's easy to say you're a god, especially if you've consolidated a bunch of magical and technological power. If the three gods from the intro and orb rooms text are "real", I imagine Nature to be the only "true" god. The other two are reactions to Nature and each other. It is possible, though, that Nature themselves are a reaction against whatever created the great egg. e: which - as we know but perhaps they don't - is a bigassed loon. Now I'm thinking about all the egg imagery in the game. Also, I'm not a lore expert, and I'm certainly projecting more than a little middle aged cynicism onto the framework Noita provides. It's fun, everyone should try.  e: oof I'm a colossal nerd dobbymoodge fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Apr 19, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 23:50
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we play and talk about noita, we're all nerds here
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Apr 19, 2024 01:32
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Noita lore is really cool. I don't know the first thing about Finn culture but it's worth noting that while most monster names translate to something very blunt and descriptive, the Hiisi are actually quite fleshed out in Finnish folklore. Going off of this and the general ramshackle nature of their machines, I've always imagined that if they do serve the technology "god", they're fairly recent converts. They're nature spirits and guardians of the land who are just as likely to electrocute themselves or blow themselves up with their newfound technology as you are with your magic. edit: also, it's very Noita that the linked wikipedia article includes a reference to a myth where urine is transmuted to steel goferchan fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Apr 19, 2024 |
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Apr 19, 2024 01:38
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finally ready to have another go at the sun quest, and the guaranteed paha silma for the ghost boss isn't there  idk whether to write the run off and go win, or try to farm chests. neither's very appealing
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Apr 19, 2024 02:39
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Ciaphas posted:finally ready to have another go at the sun quest, and the guaranteed paha silma for the ghost boss isn't there Drag a chest up to the mountain altar and use the polymorph trick to make 1000 chests E: the new cessation spell would probably work too and is easier. uPen fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Apr 19, 2024 |
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Apr 19, 2024 02:40
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uPen posted:Drag a chest up to the mountain altar and use the polymorph trick to make 1000 chests
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Apr 19, 2024 03:27
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Alchemic precursor run! Found some by the Fungal Altar and then more in the Jungle - looks like Toxic Sludge, Teleportatium, and maybe soil?? Found a wand full of heal spells; now I just need to go find the boomerang wand that was somewhere by Fungal Altar & kill Alchemist, then maybe set something up for mestari in case I can't find a tinker everywhere perk
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Apr 19, 2024 04:40
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Oh drat, the sun looks way more, uh, sun-like after doing a normal win. That's kinda pretty (e) huh, drat. sun won't kill me. oops lol
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Apr 19, 2024 04:46
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Good a decent run underway so far and decided to chose the perk lottery. It gave me unlimited spells and tinker anywhere. Ok game, where are you going to hit me with the hidden poly?
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Apr 20, 2024 05:22
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I dearly love the boomerang spells perk, I basically always take it if I see it semi-early in a run. I'm fairly certain 100% of my deaths with boomerang spells were caused by me forgetting I've got it while testing wands. 
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Apr 20, 2024 05:46
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Hahaha, "no, no, shoo, shoo!!"
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Apr 20, 2024 06:27
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