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They shoulda leaned into it being Exalted magic coming back Shadowrun style.
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Apr 10, 2024 09:13
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moths posted:That game could be amazing in the right hands, but I don't think we'll ever see it. Internal conflict is a pretty huge theme in WoD, and it was extremely missing from 90% of HtR. Oh, there was plenty of internal conflict in Reckoning. No two Hunters viewed their Creeds the same way and they often fought about it. Some writers I think got the game as it was supposed to be - Greg Stolze, which we might add 'as usual' - but it was definitely uneven and yet still has some of my favorite books WoD ever did in The Walking Dead and Hunter's Survival Guide so whatcha gonna do. Ghost Armor 1337 posted:I mean Hunter the Parenting pulls off H5's intended tone better than H5 it self. And even then Big D is heavy implied to be a imbued and even if he isn't one, He's bizarrely knowledgeable of the supernatural for H5 PC... I don't know what this is or why Dunklezahn is in it.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:54
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Honestly, Greg Stolze is probably the best author in the urban fantasy genre.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:57
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I enjoyed Reckoning as what it was, and I make no apology for that.
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Apr 10, 2024 15:00
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ZearothK posted:Honestly, Greg Stolze is probably the best author in the urban fantasy genre. It's true. He actually helped me grok concepts in Demon: The Fallen better than the actual book did in his trilogy Ashes & Angel Wings. That might be a good FATAL & Friends.
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Apr 10, 2024 15:00
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We have the precedent for long rambling reviews of the novels now, too!
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Apr 10, 2024 15:03
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Hunter the Reckoning was cool because you never really got super good powers (neat unnatural ones sure) but you did get everyone else in your characters life watch you ruin yourself. Convincing your girlfriend that guy you just beat to death with a pipe was actually a zombie, honest is the core experience. If you ignore the art, the game is about living in a different world than the one most people can understand and a driving compulsion to do something about it. Regardless of cost.
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Apr 10, 2024 15:44
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Lord_Hambrose posted:If you ignore the art, the game is about living in a different world than the one most people can understand and a driving compulsion to do something about it. Regardless of cost. Yeah the core book has maybe the worst Art Direction of any WoD book.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:10
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Hunter the Reckoning was cool because you never really got super good powers (neat unnatural ones sure) but you did get everyone else in your characters life watch you ruin yourself. Convincing your girlfriend that guy you just beat to death with a pipe was actually a zombie, honest is the core experience. 
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Apr 10, 2024 16:24
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Free Gratis posted:Yeah the core book has maybe the worst Art Direction of any WoD book. "You are not a badass!" *Pictured: Woman with more abs than Mikasa Ackerman slicing through a werewolf with a spoon* (I still love you, Ron Spencer.)
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Apr 10, 2024 16:49
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Nessus posted:So you’re saying Hunter.net was a radicalizing online platform? You joke, but reading through the corebook back in 2016/2017ish (didn't finish it at the time) the Hunter.net stuff feels incredibly uncomfortably close to the Q poo poo that swept the internet for the last half decade. Of course, in Hunter there really are blood sucking horrors running the world, but it's still uncomfortable to read considering what internet conspiracy has become. "Inherit the Earth", the short story collection is pretty great and mostly does a great job of showing the best ideas of the game.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:38
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joylessdivision posted:You joke, but reading through the corebook back in 2016/2017ish (didn't finish it at the time) the Hunter.net stuff feels incredibly uncomfortably close to the Q poo poo that swept the internet for the last half decade. I mean so much of legacy WoD was rife with racist dogwhistles about "globalist conspiracies" and secret cabals running everything. The fact that the general white gentile public is reading it nowadays and actually recognizing all the racist and antisemitic themes inherent to the core design of the setting is overall a good thing, in my opinion. For years I would get dragged over the coals for voicing my concerns about a lot of this poo poo, up to and including having a line of 30+ angry white dudes all call me homophobic slurs at a convention because I dared to suggest to the developer of Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom that a lot of the stuff in the book is extremely racist and ignorant of the culture and just plain geography of Africa. His response at that time was literally, "well good things none of them will read it then, I guess. *smug smirk* " The franchise has always been a cloister for horrible pieces of poo poo. It has never not been a cloister for horrible pieces of poo poo. Overcorrecting to make it clear that those horrible pieces of poo poo are not actually representative of the brand and the company that makes it is very much sorta necessary at this point, which is why it's so hilariously embarrassing how badly they've hosed it up repeatedly at this juncture. V5 only stopped being horrid and lovely at the tail end of OPP's books, and Werewolf has been a mess and still is. Hunter straight out the gate had some bad poo poo in there with BOPE that they had to aggressively backpedal on before the actual release because it was thankfully caught in the early access.
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Apr 10, 2024 18:21
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The only Hunter novel I recall is the one where the alcoholic Judge refills a flask he "borrowed" with tap water without realizing that originally it was filled with actual no joke holy water.
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Apr 10, 2024 18:25
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joylessdivision posted:Of course, in Hunter there really are blood sucking horrors running the world, but it's still uncomfortable to read considering what internet conspiracy has become. The fact that it's true in setting is the reason it's uncomfortable.
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Apr 10, 2024 19:57
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Indeed, it suggests some combination of 'validating antisemites (they just got to the wrong conclusion),' 'vampires and so on deliberately threw heat onto the Jews,' and 'historically, mortals who stumbled on signs of vampire activity just went ahead and blamed it on the Jews.' None of these are exactly the exciting fun kind of horror
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Apr 10, 2024 20:01
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citybeatnik posted:The only Hunter novel I recall is the one where the alcoholic Judge refills a flask he "borrowed" with tap water without realizing that originally it was filled with actual no joke holy water. The Hunter novels were weird, crossing over with Mummy. It DID have Carpenter in them, though, so passing grade.
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Apr 10, 2024 20:17
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Nessus posted:So you’re saying Hunter.net was a radicalizing online platform? Yes, it was explicitly that. HTR is explicitly about becoming so radicalized as you follow your creed further and further that you become more, and less, than human. Once you get your virtues up into the 7+ range, you start to crack. And the whole 'hunter.net' concept was terrifyingly prescient about how radicalization would go on-line. The HTR corebook had the usual five levels of powers. There was no way to actually acquire the fifth level powers in the rulebook. A later supplement included rules for doing so; by becoming so focused on the hunt that you stopped being human and became an incarnation of your creed. The rulebook that this is covered in is called 'Fall From Grace,' which should tell you something. The entire point of the game line is that you're being radicalized, and to become more powerful and more effective at what you do, you have to become more and more extremist, and no matter how you dress it up, it's bad. How to get level five edges in HTR: some random post on the Internet that sums it up quite nicely posted:The divine path changes an imbued's Nature and Demeanor to one of Autocrat, Dreamer or Fanatic (both changing to the same one). They lose all derangements previously gained except for one, but that one can no longer be kept under control with Willpower. They no longer regain Willpower during downtime, from sleeping, or between stories; they only regain it by acting in accordance with their Archetype, and perhaps by reaching milestones on their quest. Their permanent Willpower can no longer be increased. "Extremist" is defined as 'primary Virtue higher than 7, or both other Virtues higher than 7.' TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 20:24
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Dawgstar posted:I don't know what this is or why Dunklezahn is in it. It's web series by the guys who done if the emperor has a text to speech device after that series is shut down due to the warhammer+ mess... The main cast is actually transparents of the tts cast (ex: kitten is the Custodes with part of his name happen to be little kitten, Marckus is Magnus the Red, Door is Rogal Dorn, Big D is the There's currently four episodes released on YouTube alongside some spin-off audio logs. The first three involves the main cast capturing a pack of sabbat and the messy aftermarth and recent episodes is a whodunit in the Arcanum chapterhouse involving big D's ex boyfriend. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 23:27
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Dawgstar posted:It's true. He actually helped me grok concepts in Demon: The Fallen better than the actual book did in his trilogy Ashes & Angel Wings. That might be a good FATAL & Friends. I'd be so down to read this. That trilogy really did unlock the game for me, too.
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Apr 11, 2024 08:40
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Free Gratis posted:Yeah the core book has maybe the worst Art Direction of any WoD book.
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Apr 11, 2024 09:48
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AmiYumi posted:First several books, iirc - or did that one fat fetish artist only start working later in the line? Can we get a clarification if we are bodyshaming or kinkshaming? Stupid English language
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Apr 11, 2024 22:12
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Kinkshaming, but I can't say I don't agree. The art in question was, if nothing else, not particularly fitting for the game.
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Apr 12, 2024 20:29
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Schwarzwald posted:The fact that it's true in setting is the reason it's uncomfortable. Nessus posted:Indeed, it suggests some combination of 'validating antisemites (they just got to the wrong conclusion),' 'vampires and so on deliberately threw heat onto the Jews,' and 'historically, mortals who stumbled on signs of vampire activity just went ahead and blamed it on the Jews.' The fact that it actually is supernatural eldritch horrors doing all these war crimes and not just simply mundane ignorant selfish idiots like in real life is a form of escapism that some are down with. Games are games, and real life is real life; I don't want real life in my escapism. It's the main reason I don't play realistic-ish shooters like Call of Duty, either. Cartoonishly over-the-top stuff? Sure. I know that's not real. I get enough realism in real life.
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Apr 18, 2024 18:46
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Cartoonishly over-the-top stuff? Sure. I know that's not real. Regardless of your beliefs, I don't want my elf-games taking the stance of 'Alex Jones is mostly correct'
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Apr 18, 2024 22:03
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Yeah, a lot of 'conspiracy' stuff that was considered harmless and fun to play around with really hasn't aged well now we know where it all came from and where it was inevitably going. Even in OWoD they realised that it was a bad idea to pin everything on supernatural creatures. Hence the jokes about how Hitler was the only confirmed human historical figure in the WoD.
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Apr 19, 2024 10:36
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOq49ZkzSgc
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Apr 19, 2024 14:12
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I think we just have to accept that the majority of our elfgames are going to tread into some nasty territory if they aren't very carefully executed, and this goes double for anything built around vast secret conspiracies. I don't know that this means we can't use that material, though, just that it requires real care, particularly on the writing and publishing front. For White Wolf games this goes double because none of the splats are beyond the problematic, old or new, but they continue to exercise a powerful hold for a reason - and that reason is that the conspiracy theory and the monster go hand in hand for modern folk epistemology and form compelling, exciting narratives. Those are the precise narratives the games harness for their sense of moment, what distinguishes them from others, what makes them tick and sink into the memory in a way something like Unhallowed Metropolis doesn't. Even if you write the book clean of any contact, you will inevitably bump out against these spectres in expanding it because the archetypes are threaded through the cultural underpinnings of the material itself. Vampires come with sexual violence and fear of the social pollutant; vigilante street soldiers fighting a hidden enemy inevitably connects to fascism (or anti-fascism); werewolves inevitably come into contact with the terror of the other and the legacy of colonialism. The question isn't 'how do we stop that happening', it's 'how do we deconstruct and subvert the dangerous aspects of these myths'. In HtR's case, I think it actually does something interesting with its approach to radicalization - not particularly well, but it does it. The texts are quite literal discourses about how to approach the question of how to understand the problem of a world where it seems like sinister forces are controlling things, not just bug-eyed 'Alex jones is right' content. The right answer is, IMO, 'sure - evil vampires are secretly controlling the polluting factory down town. But if you kill them, the problem is still there, because it wasn't the vampires, it was the structures of power themselves that made this world rotten and those must be addressed.' This is a balance they didn't always strike, but its present in the texts for a reason, and I think thats the key to actually using the material responsibly.
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Apr 19, 2024 14:44
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I'm not sure the HtR line developer(s) ever has a super consistent vision for the line, which definitely hurt it, but it still managed to put out some compelling stuff (largely on the strength of people like Stolze, but not just him). And given the state of current affairs, it's a shame Woof 5 didn't go harder in some directions in addition to outright dismissal of people brought on to make things less horrible. I wonder again what the original draft of the book looked like when the crew with B. Dave Walters and Ivan Van Norman were working on it before it got yanked.
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Apr 19, 2024 15:25
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I always appreciated that Mummy encouraged you in the book to fix systemic issues as part of the mechanics. Yeah you can machine gun the servants of Set but then your ma'at gets out of whack and you start losing Mummy power.
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Apr 19, 2024 15:36
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TheKingslayer posted:I always appreciated that Mummy encouraged you in the book to fix systemic issues as part of the mechanics. Yeah you can machine gun the servants of Set but then your ma'at gets out of whack and you start losing Mummy power.
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Apr 19, 2024 15:54
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Dawgstar posted:I'm not sure the HtR line developer(s) ever has a super consistent vision for the line, which definitely hurt it, but it still managed to put out some compelling stuff (largely on the strength of people like Stolze, but not just him). I mean, given the lead Dev on both projects, it's no wonder both had loving anemic design. Meanwhile the book that he didn't touch at all, Blood Sigils, is packed to the gills with rad and insane poo poo.
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Apr 19, 2024 15:59
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I was wondering for a second why you thought Ken Cliffe had anything to do with Woof 5. Loomer and I were talking about the original Reckoning, or I thought.
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Apr 19, 2024 16:09
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Nessus posted:How heavy handed is it? Is it more like 'the cool action scene isn't the narrative climax, it's just the cool action scene' or a la Mage Revised 'Wizard did I catch you having FUN??? Take three aggravated damage and go volunteer at Food Not Bombs.' It's been a while since I read it in detail, but yeah I always took it to be a tool to keep violence dramatic and not have the players murder all their problems away. It was a bit more like Humanity in the Vampire line.
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Apr 19, 2024 16:10
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Dawgstar posted:I was wondering for a second why you thought Ken Cliffe had anything to do with Woof 5. Loomer and I were talking about the original Reckoning, or I thought. New Reckoning is too boring to even discuss.
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Apr 19, 2024 16:18
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My knowledge of anything post swedracula is minimal on account of all that bullshit making me sever my ongoing zeal for the setting and embrace my inner grog so yes, I’m talking about Revised era Hunter when I speak of HtR.
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Apr 19, 2024 16:21
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Loomer posted:My knowledge of anything post swedracula is minimal on account of all that bullshit making me sever my ongoing zeal for the setting and embrace my inner grog so yes, I’m talking about Revised era Hunter when I speak of HtR. Unfortunate, since current V5 is at least the least racist and offensive version of the game that has ever existed.
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Apr 19, 2024 17:17
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Fuzz posted:Unfortunate, since current V5 is at least the least racist and offensive version of the game that has ever existed. Not at all. Swedracula's stamp on the game has never been removed; it's why the game mechanics are constantly grabbing you by the collar and forcing you to act out your clan stereotypes. The most cleaned-up and easy to take seriously version of Masquerade is just V20, and the most cleaned-up and easy to take seriously version of Vampire is Requiem.
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Apr 19, 2024 17:20
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Ferrinus posted:Not at all. Swedracula's stamp on the game has never been removed; it's why the game mechanics are constantly grabbing you by the collar and forcing you to act out your clan stereotypes. The most cleaned-up and easy to take seriously version of Masquerade is just V20, and the most cleaned-up and easy to take seriously version of Vampire is Requiem.
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Apr 19, 2024 17:24
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Nessus posted:How's it stack up to WFRP's books on the Vampire Counts? That's not Vampire, it's just incidentally about vampires.
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Apr 19, 2024 18:28
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I still can't quite get the "how dare they expect you to punch people when playing the Punching People Clan" outrage I see crop up. There's plenty of other things to be upset about.
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Apr 19, 2024 23:46
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