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WrenP-Complete posted:From that Washington Post article The THC carts were cut with vitamin e. It's what reporters and state officials have been saying for at least a month. It's loving indefensible.
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Nov 9, 2019 05:39
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turns out epidemiology, and scientifically confirming the biological/chemical causes of diseases, is difficult,
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Nov 9, 2019 06:21
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luxury handset posted:turns out epidemiology, and scientifically confirming the biological/chemical causes of diseases, is difficult, Not in this case. The evidence very early on pointed overwhelmingly to one specific cause. The FDA said as much weeks ago. By not making it clear what the primary cause was the CDC did didn't let people know that the danger was in using black market products and not nicotine containing vapes/e-liquid. This leads people to think it's regular nicotine vaping causing it and that black market products are fine, and distorts the public perception of how harmful ENDS are or aren't. PHE and the RCP had to put out public statements reaffirming their position and explaining to people that what was happening in the US wasn't happening anywhere else in the world and that their recommendation that smokers be encouraged to quit has not changed at all. This also set people off in a panic which lead to states banning vaping devices and liquid while leaving combustible products on the market. This may lead people to believe they are more dangerous somehow. In the long run if fewer people switch the harm of those people that otherwise would have will be a greater loss of life than what came out of this outbreak. Most of these states are now losing court battles and the bans are being overturned. What a waste of time, energy, and money all to capitalize on a public health panic that had nothing to do with ENDS in the first place. None of the regulations passed down would have addressed the lung injuries or the devices/liquids that caused them. None. Here is how far back this was picked up on: https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2019/2019-09-05_vaping.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...national&wpmk=1 On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 06:36
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re: re: re: re; re: Re; fed gov Health Hoaxes, did you know holistic tobacco cures cancer? CDC Stunned by One sImple Trick
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Nov 9, 2019 09:11
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I'm honestly curious why lovely THC carts are a US-only problem.
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Nov 9, 2019 13:14
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luxury handset posted:turns out epidemiology, and scientifically confirming the biological/chemical causes of diseases, is difficult, While this is very true, the idiotic part about it is is that lots of people have been using PG/VG/flavoring/nic juices for a decade with literally no known case of this. They should have clarified, as this will (epidemiologically speaking) probably kill thousands of people who now think all vaping is bad and more dangerous than smoking
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Nov 9, 2019 13:24
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On Terra Firma posted:The THC carts were cut with vitamin e. It's what reporters and state officials have been saying for at least a month. It's loving indefensible. But people who didn't use THC carts had vitamin E in their lungs...
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Nov 9, 2019 13:24
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WrenP-Complete posted:But people who didn't use THC carts had vitamin E in their lungs... Maybe they bought lovely "CBD oil" from a gas station. Or they don't remember using a weed cart. Or they took a friends by accident. Or they did but cant admit it because of XYZ. There is no evidence so far of any tainted nicotine carts from stores.
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Nov 9, 2019 15:05
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vincentpricesboner posted:Maybe they bought lovely "CBD oil" from a gas station. Or they don't remember using a weed cart. Or they took a friends by accident. Or they did but cant admit it because of XYZ. They haven't analyzed all the data from the sick people yet. I can understand the CDC's cautious stance, as the people who got sick aren't all pointing to a common source. They can take the people at face value and continue to investigate, as they are...
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Nov 9, 2019 15:22
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PT6A posted:I'm honestly curious why lovely THC carts are a US-only problem. I think the market for stuff like THC carts is just a lot smaller outside the US. Weed is still illegal in all of Europe and IRC the rest of the world. In places where it's decriminalized or weakly enforced there is no wholesale or consumerist culture around it like in the US.
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Nov 9, 2019 16:27
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WrenP-Complete posted:They haven't analyzed all the data from the sick people yet. If over 90% of people who are getting sick/dying are found to be using street bought THC carts by their own admission then yeah that's pointing to a common source. Just to recap: - This is only happening within the US, with one or two isolated causes in southern Canada. - Around 90% of people who have died or gotten sick that have been interviewed have admitted to using illegal THC cartomizers. - People have been using vaping products widely for ten years, and this is a sudden acute outbreak that's mostly effecting younger men. - One of the common indicators of injury has been oil build up in the lungs. E-liquid doesn't have and has never had any oils in it. You cannot use the solution in THC carts in ENDs. You need an entirely different system because of the oil. The CDC has been lumping in ENDS with the above information even though they know, by their own admission in weekly updates, the above to be true. There is no reason for them to do this. At all. It would be as if they said "Due to the outbreak, the CDC recommends not drinking water, tea, or bleach." When this is a potential outcome of coming forward after getting sick and admitting to using THC, there is probably a good reason why people are reluctant to admit it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x87dR5UEmRA On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 16:46
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WrenP-Complete posted:They haven't analyzed all the data from the sick people yet. They are pointing to a common source. We have a history of ten years of regular nicotine vape use that has not shown these results. We have a history of 1-2 years with THC carts en masse and virtually all the cases its already confirmed they were used.
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Nov 9, 2019 16:52
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Over 2000 people sick, 39 deaths. They have only looked at 29 people's lung samples so far. I can understand the CDC wanting to be cautious with so little information in. It does seem interesting that the vitamin A acetate seems to be the main culprit. Can you please tell me a little more (or point me to a good source) about the chemistry/science of the oil for nicotine delivery vs THC delivery? Is a mixed THC+nicotine vape possible? If you picked up someone's THC vape by accident, would it be immediately apparent to you? vincentpricesboner posted:They are pointing to a common source. We have a history of ten years of regular nicotine vape use that has not shown these results. We have a history of 1-2 years with THC carts en masse and virtually all the cases its already confirmed they were used. This is a compelling line of reasoning. Thank you. It makes me wonder how the delivery systems for nicotine vapes have changed over the last ten years. WrenP-Complete fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 16:59
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WrenP-Complete posted:Over 2000 people sick, 39 deaths. They have only looked at 29 people's lung samples so far. I can understand the CDC wanting to be cautious with so little information in. A lot of analysis took place at the state level too. New York identified 8 right out of the gate. I think Utah was another one that narrowed it down months ago. The CDC dragged their feet on this. quote:Can you please tell me a little more (or point me to a good source) about the chemistry/science of the oil for nicotine delivery vs THC delivery? Is a mixed THC+nicotine vape possible? If you picked up someone's THC vape by accident, would it be immediately apparent to you? I thought I had bookmarked a link to an explanation of how the coils/tanks were different. If I find it I'll post it in here. The simple explanation is that if you take an oil based solution and put it in a tank designed for e-liquid the coil won't be able to fire or wick to vaporize the liquid because it's so dense. If you don't have any experience with the devices it might not appear all that different, especially since the pen/Juul style is so prevalent right now. You could try and mix the two together, but again it's oil and water so..
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Nov 9, 2019 17:08
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It appears someone used the vit e oil in something other than thc carts. Also likely that at least a few people who thought they were vaping nicotine were handed a vape that was loaded with some thc juice lol. Which brings up the point that carts should be very clearly labeled wrt what is in them and at what potency. Many people have incentives to lie about what they were vaping, particularly minors in schools that drop instant expulsion for any drug use whatsoever.
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Nov 9, 2019 17:09
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Blorange posted:Many people have incentives to lie about what they were vaping, particularly minors in schools that drop instant expulsion for any drug use whatsoever. If they admit it to a doctor, wouldn't that doctor risk an epic loving -- possibly loss of licensure -- by patient privacy laws if they revealed that information to anyone, but especially to a school?
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Nov 9, 2019 17:13
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WrenP-Complete posted:Over 2000 people sick, 39 deaths. They have only looked at 29 people's lung samples so far. I can understand the CDC wanting to be cautious with so little information in. quite literally, the only difference in devices is that now more efficiently vaporize at lower temperature. Chemically, the only change has been salt nics. Everything else (PG/VG/Flavoring) has remained the same
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Nov 9, 2019 17:13
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PT6A posted:If they admit it to a doctor, wouldn't that doctor risk an epic loving -- possibly loss of licensure -- by patient privacy laws if they revealed that information to anyone, but especially to a school? If they're a minor being questioned they will most likely have their parents in the room, or the parents will be told what the answers were. Most of the people getting sick were young, but almost all of the people dying were older. Something to keep in mind. oxsnard posted:quite literally, the only difference in devices is that now more efficiently vaporize at lower temperature. Chemically, the only change has been salt nics. Everything else (PG/VG/Flavoring) has remained the same There's also different type of wire and wick material. Everything is done with cotton where as before they had silica wicks which is what a lot of early tests were done on. You also have temp control available in a ton of devices. That's what I use.
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Nov 9, 2019 17:15
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On Terra Firma posted:If they're a minor being questioned they will most likely have their parents in the room, or the parents will be told what the answers were. Most of the people getting sick were young, but almost all of the people dying were older. Something to keep in mind. Is that a right of the parents? For anyone over the age of 10 or 12, the child should absolutely have the right to medical privacy and to discuss health issues with care providers without their parents present, I mean, goddamn! Also it should be mandatory, and not able to be waived by the minor, to prevent any situation where the parents can coerce the child into revealing anything they might not be comfortable with their parents knowing.
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Nov 9, 2019 17:18
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PT6A posted:Is that a right of the parents? For anyone over the age of 10 or 12, the child should absolutely have the right to medical privacy and to discuss health issues with care providers without their parents present, I mean, goddamn! That kind of surprised me too. https://www.hipaahelpcenter.com/privacy/how-does-hipaa-privacy-rule-apply-to-minors
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Nov 9, 2019 17:21
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On Terra Firma posted:That kind of surprised me too. That is fully loving insane and disgusting. Like, who wrote privacy laws that don't apply to handing sensitive information over to a group of people who are, in all honesty, often responsible for some level of abusive behaviour? I wouldn't mind my own parents having access to most or all of what I've ever discussed with a doctor, but on the other hand, that was and is my choice and I absolutely know many situations where parents must not be allowed that kind of access. gently caress. PT6A fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 17:22
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Some more information about the November 8th release from the CDC https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6543438-mm6845e2-H.html quote:Out of 23 EVALI cases 20 admitted using THC vapes. On testing, all 23 tested positive for THC. Vit. E Acetate was detected in 29/29. All of the CDC's data leading up to this was based on interviews with patients and whether or not they admitted to using these products. As time went on they changed how they determined who was using what and the number shot up significantly. It turns out asking people if they use illegal drugs doesn't always prompt an honest response.
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Nov 9, 2019 17:26
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PT6A posted:That is fully loving insane and disgusting. Parents need to know what's medically up with their children in order to take care of them
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Nov 9, 2019 17:38
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And children need to be able to reveal things that would get them in deep poo poo if their parents found out, to receive proper medical care. I think I'll go with patient privacy on this one. Like, we have a huge example right here in this exact thread about why a lack of patient privacy protections is horrible both for individual health and epidemiological investigations.
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Nov 9, 2019 17:52
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On Terra Firma posted:Some more information about the November 8th release from the CDC Huh, I thought I read they didn't all test positive for THC. It's on the bottom of the first page of this paper. Last sentence. WrenP-Complete fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 00:49
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WrenP-Complete posted:Huh, I thought I read they didn't all test positive for THC. It's on the bottom of the first page of this paper. Last sentence. It says 20 people said they used THC and then 23 went on to test positive for it.
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Nov 11, 2019 04:11
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On Terra Firma posted:It says 20 people said they used THC and then 23 went on to test positive for it. Out of how many?
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Nov 11, 2019 09:02
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D-double post...CDC data: https://doh.sd.gov/news/ecigarettes.aspxquote:Among 867 patients with information on substances used in e-cigarette, or vaping, products in the 3 months prior to symptom onset** (as of October 15, 2019): I saw a graphic of this somewhere but I don't remember where. Here's a list of the nicotine e-cigarettes patients with these lung problems report using when interviewed: Juul, Smok, Suorin Drop, Naked, Solace, Mr Salt-E, Salt Nic, Air Factory, and Vuse Alto. Though it seems that where people got cartridges is more important than device, interesting regardless. I read through the marketing materials of Honey Cut, one of the vitamin E dilutants that seems likely made people ill. (After they got on the market, a bunch of copy cats followed) They were certainly marketing their product to both THC and nicotine markets. Because THC fluid is so much thicker, it's probably more practical to adulterate with more vitamin E. Perhaps the greater quantity of vitamin E adulterant leads to the greater injuries. WrenP-Complete fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 09:44
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WrenP-Complete posted:D-double post...CDC data: https://doh.sd.gov/news/ecigarettes.aspx Once the number got to around 9% vs the numbers you posted they stopped sharing data on their weekly calls/reports. That was still just on self reported data alone. If there was an outbreak of anything else the CDC would immediately put out a warning about what was most risky. They were still conflating ENDS with THC devices even when sharing information about their findings. It's like what I said earlier. They're basically telling people not to "drink" even though that could mean drinking water or bleach. https://twitter.com/CDCgov/status/1192866912482529282 ENDS and the devices used to vape THC are very different and should not be referred to as the same thing. It confuses and misleads people. quote:I saw a graphic of this somewhere but I don't remember where. Here's a list of the nicotine e-cigarettes patients with these lung problems report using when interviewed: Juul, Smok, Suorin Drop, Naked, Solace, Mr Salt-E, Salt Nic, Air Factory, and Vuse Alto. Though it seems that where people got cartridges is more important than device, interesting regardless. None of the nicotine liquids tested positive for vitamin E anywhere in the country. Only 4 of the "devices" you listed are actual devices. The rest are liquid brands. You don't use any of the liquids listed in cartridges because they're only for open/tank style devices. People don't sell sub-ohm tanks pre-filled with liquid. Users buy that separately and put their own in. The liquids listed are just popular brands. Here are some examples: liquid: https://www.myvaporstore.com/All-Melon-by-Naked-100-Eliquid-60ml-p/nag-all.htm Tank: https://www.myvaporstore.com/GeekVape-Zeus-Tank-p/gva-zsb10.htm And here is a pod: https://vusevapor.com/alto-flavor-pack-mixed-berry-1 Again you can't cut e-liquid with vitamin e. There is also zero reason to do it because PG and VG are ridiculously cheap and easy to work with. Your interpretation of all this is why people have been pissed at the CDC. You aren't familiar with the products and you don't have any way of differentiating between them, so maybe it's all the same right? quote:I read through the marketing materials of Honey Cut, one of the vitamin E dilutants that seems likely made people ill. (After they got on the market, a bunch of copy cats followed) They were certainly marketing their product to both THC and nicotine markets. Because THC fluid is so much thicker, it's probably more practical to adulterate with more vitamin E. Perhaps the greater quantity of vitamin E adulterant leads to the greater injuries. This part is correct. It's also what people were pointing to and reporting two months ago when people were being diagnosed with lipid pneumonia or something similar. https://www.leafly.com/news/health/toxic-vaping-vapi-evali-lung-injury-rise-and-fall-of-vitamin-e-oil-honey-cut https://www.leafly.com/news/health/some-vape-cart-additive-makers-pull-products-others-go-dark On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 16:19
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Thanks for the information. I'm a medical researcher but new to this space. I'll take a look at the resources you've provided and see what questions I have from a greater understanding of the context. The first question that comes to mind initially though is this - if it's physically/mechanically impossible to adulterate e-liquid with Vitamin E acetate, why was the Honey Cut company was advertising its product's use for both nicotine and cannabis products? WrenP-Complete fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 16:42
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WrenP-Complete posted:Thanks for the information. I'm a medical researcher but new to this space. I'll take a look at the resources you've provided and see what questions I have from a greater understanding of the context. If I had to guess, probably the same reason bongs are marketed as "water pipes for tobacco smoking." I.E. bullshit.
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Nov 11, 2019 16:46
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PT6A posted:If I had to guess, probably the same reason bongs are marketed as "water pipes for tobacco smoking." I.E. bullshit. Oh for stealth?! That's interesting, I think one of these companies may have filed a patent or something, I'll reread that part of my research and see if they were forced to prove it worked.
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Nov 11, 2019 16:50
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WrenP-Complete posted:Thanks for the information. I'm a medical researcher but new to this space. I'll take a look at the resources you've provided and see what questions I have from a greater understanding of the context. It's not that it's physically impossible, it's that there's a few things about it that just don't work or don't make any sense. First, why dilute an e-liquid with a substance that costs substantially more than vegetable glycerin? The balance of propylene glycol (PG) and vegetable glycerin (VG) determine it's thickness. VG is ridiculously cheap and easy to come by. Second is Honey Cut and vitamin E acetate are oil based and PG and VG arn't. PG and VG are water soluble so why you would mix the two and put it in commercially available e-liquid is odd and unheard of. I'd also like to point out that if you're selling e-liquid in the US you are required to submit a list of ingredients to the FDA. There may be some that skirt that but I do know they do pop-bys to shops and check their inventory against what has been submitted. So if there are liquids using an oil based cutting agent the FDA would have known for some time. Third is that the coils/tanks are very different and use different heating mechanisms for oil based liquids. You couldn't put the liquid in the sub-ohm tank I linked and use it. It just wouldn't fire. I'm unaware of any of their marketing pointing towards use in ENDS but if you have something of theirs that shows it I'd be very interested to see the wording used. Whats your primary field of research?
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Nov 11, 2019 16:53
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I work in new drug development and testing. Specifically I do longitudinal research on practices (including substance use) that people are already doing to improve their lives, isolate factors that may be causing the improvement or amelioration, and theorize mechanism of action. Then the isolated substances/alkaloids/etc go into clinical testing. It's pretty rad because I get to collaborate with people and patient groups who are actively working towards their own health. I help them set up valid and reliable tests of what they are doing, and then we can see if what they are doing should be shared with more people. It's very cool to work with so many citizen scientists and a very bottom-up way of doing pharmaceutical testing in a liberatory, anti-exploitative power model  As you can imagine, this means I need to get up to speed on new health practices and align with patient groups pretty quickly, so hopefully that will help me make sense of these various vaping technologies and communities. Thanks for the explanations.
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Nov 11, 2019 17:12
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WrenP-Complete posted:I work in new drug development and testing. Specifically I do longitudinal research on practices (including substance use) that people are already doing to improve their lives, isolate factors that may be causing the improvement or amelioration, and theorize mechanism of action. Then the isolated substances/alkaloids/etc go into clinical testing. This is actually really cool and I'm glad you're in the thread. It would be nice to bounce research off you as it comes up to see if the parameters make sense since a lot of it has been really lovely over the last few years. Lots of people either intentionally or unintentionally using the devices wrong, or using things that never really appeared on the market. Basically people taking weird extremes and trying to pass them off as every day user experiences.
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Nov 11, 2019 17:19
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I don't really know what happened over the last couple pages, but it seems pretty obvious that you can adulterate nic vape carts with vitamin E acetate, also seems painfully obvious that Juul doesn't give a gently caress about user safety, also seems painfully obvious that there are any number of counterfeit Juul or other nic pods out there which may share production lines with other black market products... ...I think it's really dubious to be making any sweeping claims about what is or isn't possible, or what is or isn't happening. Certainly the majority of cases appear to relate to THC carts, but when you have six of 27 lung fluid samples with no THC, and 3000 cases with 20% of them claiming no THC use... could all those people be lying? Sure. Do I think that's likely? No. Do we have the data to definitively argue it one way or another? Definitely not. I'd be happy to make some retail-looking vape carts with nicotine and vit E acetate in it, but I'm not sure what that would prove.
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Nov 11, 2019 17:38
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Tim Raines IRL posted:I don't really know what happened over the last couple pages, but it seems pretty obvious that you can adulterate nic vape carts with vitamin E acetate, You can't and there is also zero reason to do this. The nicotine containing solution would separate and all you'd be doing is adding oil. To date there have been no nicotine liquids that have tested positive for vitamin E acetate. Repeating that this is happening will not make it true. quote:also seems painfully obvious that Juul doesn't give a gently caress about user safety, also seems painfully obvious that there are any number of counterfeit Juul or other nic pods out there which may share production lines with other black market products... This is true. Juul should be wiped off the market. So should pod devices. There are commercially available nicotine pods that can work with Juul that are sold, but again the FDA requires those companies to submit lists of ingredients so we do know what is in them. quote:...I think it's really dubious to be making any sweeping claims about what is or isn't possible, or what is or isn't happening. Certainly the majority of cases appear to relate to THC carts, but when you have six of 27 lung fluid samples with no THC The "test" for how pure the carts are is based on how thick the liquid is. If you're looking to turn a quick profit you could thicken it up and pass it off as legitimately having some form of THC in it. Doesn't mean the product will contain it since there's no regulation. A dubious claim would be lumping ENDS and regular nicotine containing e-liquid in with counterfeit carts that repeatedly turn up whenever the pulmonary illness is identified. quote:and 3000 cases with 20% of them claiming no THC use... could all those people be lying? Sure. Do I think that's likely? No. Do we have the data to definitively argue it one way or another? Definitely not. That number isn't 20%. The last released figures had it around 9%-11% and there were multiple instances where people claimed they didn't use THC vapes to turn around and later admit that they did. This was based on self-reporting. This would potentially bring that number down even more. Even in the briefing the CDC put 15% of people who claimed they had not been using THC only to be tested and have the CDC find out that they were in fact using it. There are consequences for using illegal drugs that most people would rather not face. This was known to be happening early on in the outbreak. There are also cases like this where people just have no idea what they are vaping because they get it from a friend and sure I'll just vape whatever YOLO: https://fox43.com/2019/11/03/indiana-mother-wants-son-to-return-to-school-after-reporting-vaping-illness-led-to-expulsion/ quote:I'd be happy to make some retail-looking vape carts with nicotine and vit E acetate in it, but I'm not sure what that would prove. By all means go ahead and do this and get back to us with the results. There is another side of this that I'm guilty of by not pointing it out in that legitimate THC vape carts don't seem to be the issue either. People have been vaping THC for quite a long time without any problems. I read this article on it the other day and meant to post it in the thread. I don't think it's fair to incorrectly malign THC products if there is a specific cause only found in black market products. https://www.leafly.com/news/politics/how-mainstream-media-botched-the-vape-lung-story On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 19:39
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Tim Raines IRL posted:I don't really know what happened over the last couple pages, but it seems pretty obvious that you can adulterate nic vape carts with vitamin E acetate, also seems painfully obvious that Juul doesn't give a gently caress about user safety, also seems painfully obvious that there are any number of counterfeit Juul or other nic pods out there which may share production lines with other black market products... Have you considered that even the few people who hypothetically are being honest about not using THC carts, may have been using lovely black market CBD carts? We still have found no nicotine carts with the Vit A in them.
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Nov 11, 2019 20:11
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nicotine is soluble in lipids though eg, vit e acetate, a lipid
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Nov 11, 2019 21:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:nicotine is soluble in lipids though It is, but PG and VG aren't. That is the point I'm trying to drive home here. The commercially available ENDS nicotine liquids are not the problem and cannot be the problem because their ingredients don't mix with Vit E acetate. There is also the issue of the wick and coils themselves not playing nice with oil based liquid. You need another type of tank to use it. For one reason or another there has been an effort to conflate the two and make it seem like the e-liquid being sold at stores is part of the lung illness problem. There is zero evidence to support this and no regular run of the mill nicotine e-liquids bought from any store tested have contained any oils or substances that have been associated with the outbreak. None. Zero. So the question I have is why after all this time and all this evidence pouring in from multiple states has the CDC still not fully clarified what products are riskiest? Just a few days ago they will still categorizing this as an e-cigarette (nicotine) epidemic when that is categorically false. On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 22:22
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