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I live in Washington State and I was pretty upset about the ban on flavors. I see my Governor wrapping "for the kids" and "lung disease" into the same thing and it pisses me off. I think people don't want yet another addition device on the market and unfortunately, vaping has been around too long and is a very easy product to use so I think it scares people who are against smoking in general and the knee jerk reaction is "get rid of this dirty habit at all costs" which translates to misinformation in the media. I totally understand where the anti smokers are coming from but I think it's misguided. I mean I hate what Juul was doing to market their product and I'm glad they are getting sued. I just wish people would try to see something beyond their own agendas. I mean people don't have to agree but trying to understand the other side better than just shutting it all down with hiperbole. People are going to hate smokers and have no sympathy for the habit or any alternative habits no matter the outcome. And hey, that's okay. But the big problem I see is big tobacco setting itself up for controlling the market in this. Vaping isn't going away. It's too wide spread and Philip Morris wants to be top dog. But one hurdle to that is all the small businesses that popped up over the ten or so years since vaping started. There's good competition and customer loyalty that Philip Morris has to contend with. So flavor bans. No problem. Flavor bans are a death sentence for most of these small vaping businesses. That's a fact. I've seen it first hand in my state. And that works out for big tobacco. Then after the path is clear, big tobacco has all the time and money to come in and say "hey we made sure no one will get lung disease from our new vaping product, we already don't market to kids" and then they control the market. I mean they don't care if there's a ban, they can weather it and they know it. I kinda liked the fact that I was buying from small companies like Mt Baker Vapor and such. It sucks that after all this is over it'll pretty much be Philip Morris or nothing. And yet the anti smokers will think they won. Anti smokers don't give a rats rear end about us and I get that but it still sucks. I hate when people take the "serves you right" stance without any true desire to learn about what's going on, who's effected, and how, in the end, big tobacco always wins. Funny how big tobacco and "public health" are suddenly on the same side with the same agenda. And yet, no one really cares about that.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:34
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luxury handset posted:maybe they aren't really on the same side at all, and this is something which is easy to think because big tobacco and big government are both very big and distant and different from us. us being the hobbyists, the plucky independents, the little old homespun vape enthusiasts who are in no way in perfect alignment with tobacco companies about how to best expand the nicotine market Don't be condescending to me just because you disagree.
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Oct 24, 2019 04:56
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On Terra Firma posted:That's his gimmick. It's cool. He has his agenda and he's passionate about it. I just would prefer if we could be civil about it. I don't know him from Adam. So I don't assume to be rude to some stranger because of perceived anonymity. I thought we grew out of that poo poo in high school.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:08
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Solenna posted:So I don't smoke or vape and I feel like the answer should be obvious but I can't figure it out. If you ban flavoured vape juice and people are left with vapes that taste like tobacco and are kind of bad for you and cigarettes that taste like tobacco and are super bad for you why would you go back to smoking? It sucks but you have to be an addict to know how it feels. Like coffee. Why the gently caress do we drink it? It tastes like poo poo yet it feels so good. So the taste kind of becomes the drug. Yet if you could get it without the taste it would better. And if you could get it without the dying from lung cancer that would be even better. To be honest I think I started smoking to self medicate and could not quit because I got to much out of it. I like coffee in the same way. A few years ago I moved to vaping because I wanted the high while lowering the health concerns. I still get checkups and if at some point I find my heart can't handle the nicotine I'll probably stop. As it is, like coffee, I enjoy it, especially in mint flavor and feel I have successfully lowered my risks. Enjoyment of a vice we have a hard time quantifying and it's highly subjective. That's why I take issue when people who don't understand think that it's stupid. I think Fast Food is stupid. Yet people keep getting obese on it. Now to be fair that's a complicated subject since income factors into getting cheap, unhealthy food but I think people would be kinda pissed if Fast Food was banned because the government felt it would be healthier for everyone to buy from the grocery store. I'm not trying to conflate that with vaping but rather the act of enjoying something that may have risks as a knowledgeable and consenting adult you partake in it. The poo poo big tobacco pulled is bullshit because people literally thought it was healthy. With vaping, we have nicotine, which we know can cause cardiovascular issues. I don't think anyone's trying to hide that. What is getting hidden is why the government is coming down so hard on vaping and not any other risks teens face today. I think it should be a concerted effort. Don't let teens vape, smoke, drink alcohol/coffee, etc. I don't think teens should be doing any of that. Juul? gently caress those guys. Yes they need to have their asses sued for the same poo poo they did back with cigarettes. But we're adults. Some of us smoked, got hooked, and maybe even enjoyed it. For me, this is a safer way to enjoy it, like I enjoy my cup of coffee in the morning. If you don't drink coffee? If you don't vape? I don't recommend you try it. I enjoy it.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:28
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luxury handset posted:it's odder to think that big government and big tobacco have more in common than big tobacco and little tobacco. to think that there is a distinction in companies which peddle nicotine, you have to create an artifical cultural disconnect between the big, bad conglomerates and the small, good mom and pops which is definitely convenient for nicotine marketing purposes You're acting like an rear end in a top hat. I would be more than happy to discuss with you the issues at hand but it seems like you've already made up your mind and will call anyone out who doesn't agree with you. There's big money in lobbying. Not so much is small businesses.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:32
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luxury handset posted:i really don't see any difference in altria and the vape shop down the road. both sell the same addictive substance. independent vape retailers have lobbying organizations too, and they have the same goals as phillip morris. i see no purpose in trying to pretend that there's some kind of large organizational collusion between government and tobacco firms that grassroots nicotine peddlers are somehow fighting against. this is the same kind of thinking that leads people to buy 'gently caress capitalism' tshirts from a mall Ignorance is bliss. If you don't want to find out the difference, that's your deal. But bashing your half baked theory against the wall over and over again isn't going to win you anything. If you got out and talked to the vape shop down the road, you might get some insight but I doubt it. You sound very stubborn in your resolve and you don't strike me as someone who compromises in a discussion.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:41
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luxury handset posted:yes i know, i've already elaborated on the boundaries of your thought. of all the cycles we keep going through itt such as "why can't you admit you are repeating corporate marketing" and "yes, it is actually bad that teenagers use nicotine" and "you refuse to discuss scientific opinions which disagree with you while aggressively touting those that support you" and "it is really weird to accuse me of being an anti-nicotine moralist when i am a nicotine user", your inability to break out of these cycles is probably the only remaining perspective i have to share on this topic So in other words you have nothing else to add to the discussion other than manhandling the thread?
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Oct 24, 2019 06:12
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^^^ Give it a rest. Getting personal doesn't help how you look here. ^^^PT6A posted:Also tobacco-flavoured vape juice tastes nothing like actually smoking tobacco, it's like inhaling the flavour of tobacco that's been soaking in a puddle for a while, and that's exactly as appealing as it sounds. Oh man. My first hit was tobacco and I immediately considered menthol which I never liked as a regular smoker. After that I tried a couple different tobacco flavors in the beginning, thinking that one of them had to be better and they all tasted like rear end. That was even back before they improved the tobacco flav--wait, no. It still tastes like rear end. I don't know where they got the numbers that most people preferred tobacco flavor before Juul came around. I don't know anyone who prefers it over literally any other flavor. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 06:46
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On Terra Firma posted:There is no data to back up the claim everyone was using tobacco prior to Juul. It is completely wrong and the opposite has been well documented going back years and years. The only thing I can think of is that they surveyed gas stations that only had tobacco flavored cartos on the shelf.
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Oct 24, 2019 06:56
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^^^ My vaping does not equal children smoking anymore than your drinking habit equal child alcoholics. See I made a statement on false pretenses that you are drunk. ^^^ Straw-man argument. The nuance of the subject is too complicated to boil down to A = B and lacks credible evidence. It's easier to do that and probably makes you feel better but it's misguided and simple. I honestly don't know who funds my supplier. I like to think that he was telling the truth when he started the business and makes all of his juice in-house. He could be lying. It could be China. It could be big tobacco, although considering how risking investing in one small business is, much less thousands, I highly doubt it. It would be the conspiracy of the century. I like to think that his hard work paid off and he's keeping in business by not lying to his customers but I don't have all the facts to make such a bold statement for or against supporting big tobacco. I need more evidence. As it is, I feel safe in my belief that he's just good at the business he made. He's a nice guy. I've gotten several personally written "thank you"s from him. However, the chances of big tobacco running ALL the vape shops is incredibly low and, in my opinion, a stupid waste of money. So assuming just because someone who vapes they are support big tobacco is dubious at best. I would call this assumption mostly false due to lack of facts and/or evidence. Something that is fact, if I go back to smoking Marlboros, I will absolutely be supporting big tobacco. Now can we move on from this morbidly abused dead horse? inkblottime fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 07:27
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Bullfrog posted:The ironic thing is that keeping tobacco out of flavor bans doesn't make any sense, because the "tobacco flavor" is produced with a combination of flavors that mimic it. So it's no different than the rest of the fruit flavors or whatever. Yeah I thought it was weird too. I think it's so they can claim "for the children". If they banned tobacco flavor it would be too obvious since children don't smoke gross tobacco flavor. I hate the fact they put the "lung disease" lie in with "for the children". It's so obvious yet people are willing to set the disconnect aside because "lung disease" scares people and "for the children" sells the deal. Ultimately ~4000 small businesses in Washington state are in trouble.
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Oct 24, 2019 07:44
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^^^ Thanks for the advice. It derails the discussion but hey, maybe it'll help in the coffee thread. ^^^FoolyCharged posted:Not to interrupt the slapfest between you two and inkblot occasionally jumping in, but it's... kind of hosed up the way the vapes that are killing kids are being dismissed because it's not the legal stuff. That stuff is directly correlated to vaping becoming popular, and it's reputation for being safer than smoking. It's like saying liquor laws should ignore underage drinking because it's illegal anyways. There's a lot to unpack here. I don't think anyone is dismissing the fact that kids are dying but more information is needed and the CDC is being smarmy and vague with that information. Plus the facts don't add up. Lung disease cause by inhaling oil would be very difficult to hide in nicotine vaping products since the ingredients are hydrophilic and oil is hydrophobic. In other words it would separate in solution and be pretty obvious someone hosed up. At this point I truly believe the CDC is giving half-truths about the situation in order to make it look like all vaping products are the issue. It makes sense, it's a health organisation and the world would be a better place without vices. But there's a crisis and instead of addressing it head on, there's a concerted effort to kill two birds with one stone. Hit vaping hard. Personally I think it sucks we are being lied to. I'm a stickler for info. I want the facts. The evidence. You say 15% of the cases reported nicotine, I want to know, were they kids being interviewed in front of their parents in a state where THC is illegal? Because that would be a case where I would question that information. Were the kids tested to confirm no THC? I think this is important for the CDC to get right because it calls to the validity of information. So if you are here to ban all vapes because it's a vice that's a bad influence on kids, I can't help you. There's a lot of poo poo out there that can gently caress kids up. I wish we could save them all. If you want to talk about smart regulation and getting awareness (dangers of) to kids and restricting how vaping is advertised or something we can actually talk about without insulting each other, I'm game. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 15:44
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luxury handset posted:there's no conspiracy between big tobacco and big government to kill vaping. big tobacco is the vaping industry, despite how much pro-vapers itt would like to pretend otherwise with marketing based on manufactured authenticity Citation needed. Remember, there's a difference between facts and opinions. Why are you trying to shut down a valid conversation? It sounds like you don't want anyone to discuss anything in this thread. Better yet show us your proof. If you truly believe vaping is all big tobacco I want to see your source for that. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 16:11
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luxury handset posted:are you asking me to provide a citation for your claim that the CDC is publishing misleading information in an effort to kill vaping? Deflection. You're avoiding my request. I need a citation from you that you definitely know the stuff you know. Otherwise it's just your opinion. It's not hard. When you make a statement, back it up. I made a concerted effort to propose an issue and I backed it up with what I see as evidence. Right now it's just a theory because I don't know all the facts. The few facts I've discerned I've made an effort to include. I want to see you use that same effort when you make your statements. Where have you gotten your information to come to the conclusions you have reached? Here's a hint, if/than statements like "if you are upset about the vaping ban than you are a supporter of big tobacco" don't work. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 16:29
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luxury handset posted:ah, right Don't be lazy rear end in a top hat. Parse it out then cite your info. Where does it say owned by, which ones? Be specific. I found this in your article: quote:Paradoxically, the crackdown on vaping could wipe out Juul’s retail competition at mom-and-pop vape shops, leaving them as the only distributor able to withstand the blow. The limitless resources and lobbying heft of Altria could rescue an upstart nicotine delivery device from federal attack. Juul has become an escape hatch for an old Big Sin power to buy in on the next Big Sin wave. It supports my theory that big tobacco will win out if the ban runs mom and pop shops out of business. That's in the same one you just threw out like it was proof. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 16:37
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Maybe it will help if I share why I came to this thread. I want to hear points and views on the issue that are based in some form to facts. Opinions are fine but you can't really argue if someone has a firm belief they are unwilling to back down from. I guess I was hoping to have a conversation that would challenge me, prove me wrong or otherwise open up my perspective. But this isn't going anywhere so I guess you control the thread? What do you get out of this thread? Like what is your agenda? What do you want people to know? I would prefer if you backed up your statements with facts but please, you worked so hard to shut everyone down. What did you expect to get out of posting in this thread? Did you get what you wanted?
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Oct 24, 2019 18:14
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luxury handset posted:the nicotine in vape juice is derived from tobacco. not the same tobacco used in cigarettes, but the difference here is academic. they don't really care how you ingest nicotine, the addictive substance which makes people consume tobacco in the first place Is your objective to shut this thread down or turn it into anti-smoking/anti-vaping? I'm just trying to understand since the evidence you have provided doesn't always match up or it mostly comes off as opinion. Quoting news source opinions doesn't carry a lot of weight as you are still quoting opinion. It might help support your opinion but I haven't seen the silver bullet yet. Also, do you have a source to verify all vaping comes from big tobacco? And if so which ones, and which big tobacco supports them. These are the kind of facts I would be interested in hearing but just saying so doesn't make it so. I don't take people's word at face value. Example: I shop at Mt Baker Vapor. Can you tell me where their juice is sourced? inkblottime fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 24, 2019 19:14
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luxury handset posted:i've already said, my objective is to criticize bad arguments. that's what i have done consistently So you dismiss any thought that the CDC might be misleading people by posting vague or unattributed information? Simply because it's the CDC? Do we have a right to be critical of the government when questionable decisions are made? Sorry I'm having a hard time following the last part. Are you discrediting evidence? Like in general? Cuz that would gently caress this poo poo all up. I'm going to ask again: Where's your source that all vaping is tied to big tobacco? Like supply, ingredients and such. I really want to know this.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:46
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luxury handset posted:yes, because i don't think the CDC is in the business of misleading the public. this line of thought is a bit conspiratorial in my opinion, and the criticisms meant to dismiss rising rates of youth nicotine usage conveniently fold into the big tobacco talking points which are the main focus of this thread This is your theory to prove, not mine. You have not proven it to me other than shoving random data at me. This doesn't do it. I want specifics. Does "other" count as big tobacco and where exactly does it count and to whom? What exactly is this data saying. Paraphrase, don't plagiarizer your opinions. Please do the leg work to prove your point. I have not seen that yet.
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Oct 24, 2019 20:41
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On Terra Firma posted:If they are not sharing accurate or up to date information for one reason or another then there is something broken in the process. They did this. They, for whatever reason, did not clarify what the source of these illnesses were even though state agencies were reporting what they were seeing from the early days of the outbreak. The FDA issued reports about avoiding THC long before the CDC did. This has been well documented and public health experts have been wondering what the gently caress they've been doing as a result. That's really the issue I've had with it. My governor confirmed my concerns when he conflated the lung disease with keeping children safe. The CDC was slow to weigh in on vaping, like YEARS slow, and when it did it conflicted with what we were hearing in real-time. I'm happy to see they updated some of their info to clarify that THC vaping products appear to be the main concern and that they only recommend you stop vaping nicotine if you want to have zero risk, which makes perfect sense. The one thing that was sticking in my head and really the only thing I can't dismiss because I don't fully understand it, is the process of making the flavors. I really do wish there was more info on this, either saying it's fine or here's the possibility for risk. I know manufacturers are already required to send info to the FDA so I'm mostly confident that that is keeping things in check but if my governor had come out and said " we don't know if flavors are causing some of the illnesses reported and we need time to make sure it safe so I am enacting a ban for..." I would have been bummed but I would have also understood. As it is, banning every flavor but one for four months and leave that one flavor in place, in order to evaluate the safety of these products is just bad faith. Tell it like it is. A lot of the old school vapor users had to do a lot of tinkering and we can figure a lot of this poo poo out. Stop pulling the wool over our eyes. Edit: If you wish to watch it, I've included a video here with the after Q/A that was left off the official news source. Note: This is pro-vape commentary so please take the narration with a grain of salt. From the governors reaction during the Q/A I believe he really does want vaping to go away for the sake of teens. That doesn't change the fact that it's a drastic move under false pretenses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5WtmD6ainI inkblottime fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 01:47
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On Terra Firma posted:https://www.npr.org/sections/health..._medium=twitter The doctor heading the investigation has no experience in tobacco or vaping.  But that image of the dude with the vape testing base.  I'm getting flashbacks to the infamous cardo tests they did years ago that they said proved that vaping had carcinogens. Of course they were testing them upside down so the cardos were dry burning. Even now, I think most people who vape know not to do it inverted like in that picture (flooding, dry-burn, oh my!). Jesus. EDIT: The conclusion blows my mind. quote:"Some of the underlying factors that have brought us here are going to be very difficult to deal with," she says. If this were simply a case of contaminated food, the CDC could identify the product and recall it from the shelves. It's very different to intervene in an outbreak "that we believe is due to behaviors that may be quite common and products that, for whatever reason, seem to be quite risky." Are they talking about all vapes? "...seem to be quite risky." Seriously? If they are talking about THC vaping, which granted, I have little to no experience with but I thought weed wasn't an addictive product. What exactly do they mean by "hard to quit" unless they are also including nicotine. I loving hate this mixing of subjects to confuse the issue. inkblottime fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 26, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 01:40
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Bullfrog posted:I really don't like juul, but I'm curious as to what "contaminated" means and how it affected the products. What were they contaminated with? Were they just expired? How did being expired affect the juice? etc. This is a good case for examining flavors. It's unfortunate they don't have or don't want to release the information on what the contaminant is. I love mint and this kinda scares me.
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Oct 30, 2019 22:13
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This obfuscation is what drives me nuts. Is the "contaminate" on the list sent to FDA? Is it something they added without telling the FDA? Is it a known result of adding a catalyst (heat) to two known chemicals? I wish they would break this stuff down. But yeah, I would not be sad if Juul died in a fire.
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Oct 31, 2019 02:23
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Tim Raines IRL posted:one the one hand, sure, sounds like a poo poo study. To be honest, I wish I knew more about cannabis vaping. I have a friend who had what I could only describe as a wood pipe that heated pure weed but didn't burn it. I always thought that was so cool and seemed like a fairly safe option considering it didn't produce smoke. Then he switched to the vape style weed and I have no clue how what the chemicals are or how they work. I only know it's different from nicotine vaping. FYI, I have an allergy to weed, like put me in the hospital level allergic reaction to it. Sometimes my friend forgets and tries to pass to me, like good high friends do.
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Oct 31, 2019 03:32
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I haven't read it yet but figured I would share this: https://slate.com/technology/2019/10/vaping-illness-causes-exhaustive-list.html Slate put together a list of possible things causing the vaping illness.
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Oct 31, 2019 17:00
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WrenP-Complete posted:This sounds like the Vapor Genie, fyi. It was more squared off and had a swivel trap door instead of an open hole. He'd put the pot in, drag on it, then knock it out once it was spent, yet it looked the same as when it went in. Smokeless pot pipe? Not sure what it would be called. I don't think it was very strong since he switched out to liquid vapor pot.
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Oct 31, 2019 19:58
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Bullfrog posted:That sounds like the Magic Flight Launch Box. Great device. Yeah, that was it! Quite ingenious. It's kind of shame it's not as popular as vaping liquid. It struck me as one of the safer ways to get high.
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Nov 1, 2019 01:53
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Published today by Reuters. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/juul-ecigarette/ gently caress Juul. Also, I could never do Snus. Having something in my mouth just fucks with me. Like I can't chew gum. Which is why I liked smoking. I quit for like 3 years before falling off the wagon because of stress. It calms me down. Now that I vape it's like a meditation ritual with drugs. I'm so chill when I vape but I get figity when I can't. And it's not just the addition since I'm also on anti-anxiety meds. My mind just doesn't shut up but a little puff and I'm chill. It's a bummer I can't smoke pot or I'd probably be a full functioning stoner. 
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Nov 6, 2019 07:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:you just described nicotine addiction literally to a t, fyi. The effects of nicotine addition last, I believe a week. So my figiting for 3 years while not smoking, not to mention my attention issues in school before I smoked have nothing to do with it. Truthfully, I should have been an anti-anxiety meds when I was teen. Probably would have prevented me from picking up the habit. I understand addition. I also have a good sense of self and what my own issues are. Please don't conflate my issues with an agenda.
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Nov 6, 2019 22:14
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