Vaping/Tobacco Harm Reduction - You can't cut vaping! Juul regret this!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Vaping/Tobacco Harm Reduction - You can't cut vaping! Juul regret this!

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Of note, PMI literally has a billion dollar fund for research grants to find favorable research about non-smoke alternatives and their entire institutional pitch rn is to legitimize vaping as the future.

http://theconversation.com/big-tobacco-is-funding-the-anti-smoking-lobby-but-leaked-documents-reveal-the-real-reason-why-93087

ThanosWasRight posted:

The Juul ads on the radio promoting it as a healthy alternative to smoking are disgusting and criminal and the people who created them need to loving go to jail.

It's some of the most disgusting propaganda I've heard in my loving life.

Worse even I see ads around gas stations for E-Cigarette devices at 99 cents. Fragrantly selling the devices at a loss to produce and lowering the barriers to addiction. This should be extremely illegally.

These companies need to be nipped in the bud.

All those ads about how vaping are harmless are specifically meant for the one segment of society that has no exposure to 30 years of public information about how much nicotine addiction sucks. ie kids. Most of them take that at face value.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

At some point we must accept annoyance to stop a crime. The crime is killing humans with cigarettes

I mean how many people really die a year from tobacco products? oh yeah 7 million

luxury handset posted:

to refocus on one single argument - who is doing this confusing, and why?

Terra firma's posts are word for word philip morris promotional materials on vaping, I'm not even being facetious

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Oct 2, 2019

# ¿ Oct 2, 2019 21:08

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 17:38

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

You're being obtuse, you know people aren't saying that. And yeah are you unaware of the legacy of billions of dollars being poured into tobacco/nicotine research both recently and over the last 60 years?

They are fine killing 7 million people a year, I'm sure that they are only pushing information that represents their consumers best interests.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2019 23:18

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Again, I've never conflated the two, but that's easier than addressing the question of 'why do my opinions perfectly mirror those of marketing materials of an industry that kills 7million people a year?'

Nicotine and tobacco studies are used as the textbook examples of how funding leads to bias in research on about a dozen different levels. PMI of course says that researchers are free to come to any conclusion, but they still pick who gets funded and who doesn't, so of course 'vaping is a superior form of nicotine intake than smoking' studies are going to end up wildly over-represented when there's a billion dollar pool just waiting for scientists to fund another year of life in academia by tapping into.

No one is going to argue that vaping isn't almost definitely safer than smoking, we're asking you to look at the entire rest of the role of nicotine in the world. And frankly they're just misusing harm reduction at this point as an excuse to sell more nicotine to people that they purposely got hooked on nicotine in the first place.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 00:03

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Hi there rabid defender of vaping products who really wants to talk to us about uk nicotine policy who just happens to live in the same town as philip morris and altria's headquarters in virginia

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 04:16

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Most people vape instead of smoke because vapes you can still use almost anywhere and cigarettes in most developed places you have to go walk 3 blocks in the cold rain to actually light one while still weathering death glares from the parents of the small kids your smoke is drifting over. Ironically, there's a danger in this that it makes it way easier to be a nicotine user when you can use/reinforce the habit all day long whereas for a lot of smokers the physical opportunity to smoke was extremely limited throughout the day.

Personally I think nicotine ultimately should go the way of quaaludes.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 04:28

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

I'm not even anti vaping and I'm a weirdo who loves second hand smoke and nicotine in general, I just find on terra firma's defense of nicotine completely non-sensical and his refusal to address any point anyone brings up to him perplexing.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 04:36

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Ah yes France, the country where a decade ago you could still legally smoke a cigarette on an elevator full of children.

luxury handset posted:

all of this is probably because of some oddity in the DIY vape supply chain, which is why it's extra weird to pretend there's some distinction between the corner bob's budget vape shop and big tobacco, which is worse somehow because it doesn't respect vape culture (of ingesting unknown fluids into your lungs)

One concern here is that human lungs have effectively evolved to handle some amount of smoke inhalation. Not especially well, but there's 400,000 years of adaptation there (or 1.5-2million, depending on who you believe about when human ancestors started using fire). Obviously huge amounts of smoke they don't handle well, but against smaller amounts they do surprisingly well. Inhaling propylene glycol and glycerin and whatever the gently caress weird terpenes are in the flavors is absolutely completely new.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Oct 3, 2019

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 04:39

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

luxury handset posted:

if you have to choose, wouldn't you rather someone blow a banana scented propylene glycol cloud into your child's face?

Probably the smoke, at least smoke is cool and builds character, unlike vaping, which appears to do the opposite.

enraged_camel posted:

That's somewhat of a false choice though isn't it?

won't someone think of the poor multi-billion dollar corporations right to profit off of addiction!?

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Oct 3, 2019

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 04:45

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Wait why would there even be formaldehyde, I thought it was 3 ingredients.

On Terra Firma posted:

Most vaping companies aren't really worth that much unless you're Juul.

As if you aren't fully aware that the entire tobacco industry has completely staked their future on vaping products

luxury handset posted:

are you seriously asking me to defend a paper i haven't read and which you didn't cite based on your addict's paraphrasing of why you don't like what it had to say

Look, one paper that no I won't show you totally might have falsified some data and so obviously all the other criticisms are rendered invalid or less credible!

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Oct 3, 2019

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 04:48

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

enraged_camel posted:

What I meant is that if I had a kid, I would choose to not have anything blown in their faces.

Yeah agreed, that wasn't directed at you, and wise rear end poo poo aside, vaping needs to have the same restrictions as cigarette use asap.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Oct 3, 2019

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 04:53

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

ErIog posted:

If big tobacco was so supportive of vaping then why did they spend a ton of money developing and marketing these products worldwide in that same time period instead of just making vape juice?

Amusingly they thought that most people actually gave a gently caress about the tobacco and weren't just buying their product because of marketing and nicotine addiction compulsion, which was and is basically the entirety of the tobacco (or now, nicotine) industry. Like there's zero way that they wouldn't have switched to selling vapes at that point in time if they thought it was at all commercially viable because you can extract nicotine from fresh plant which is literally pennies on the dollar compared to the process involved in drying ageing and curing tobacco leaf. They just misread the market.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 06:13

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Speaking as someone who has grown, dried, and cured tobacco it is an insanely difficult and complicated process requiring a ridiculous amount of storage space compared to just growing a ton of tobacco plants and mulching it all and extracting the nicotine out of the resulting tobacco slurry.

That said, the growing part is super easy and they're fun to grow

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 06:17

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

On Terra Firma posted:

I dislike it because you are claiming I am shilling for a company and a section of the industry when I'm not. I dislike it because, as I've stated multiple times, I am pulling my positions from the evidence available that I've presented to you again and again. If you have a problem with the studies, point to where they are wrong. If you have a problem with the organizations that put them together, show me where the issue is.

You're also using it as an excuse to dodge any other type of argument I put forward because you dismiss it all and honestly it's pretty exhausting calling you out on your poo poo again and again.

As Erlog pointed out you're just arguing in bad faith at this point. You don't address anything I say and when I do you just go back to calling me a shill. I get it. You hate vaping. You hate all forms of nicotine. Harm reduction does not have a place in tobacco control policy for you. I get it.

No one is saying that you are shilling, just that your words are indistinguishable from a shill

Any time you, a private citizen, finds yourself thinking thoughts that 99% align with a multibillion dollar corporation it should give you pause.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 08:06

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

evilweasel posted:

You are, of course. Not least, let's take this, perhaps your most brazen and obvious lie and the foundation of basically all of your argument

is this true? well, i doubt it, but lets take one key area: youth. it's well known that hooking children on nicotine is much more likely to create a lifelong addiction and thus it is a much more significant issue, and therefore youth are where most nicotine additions start.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/youth_data/tobacco_use/index.htm

oops, it turns out that the statistics make it immensely, obviously apparent that most youth are not using vaping to "transition away from combustible tobacco" - not least because these vaping rates are much higher than tobacco use rates were prior to the explosion of vaping

now he's gonna call you anti-vaping and ask if you'd prefer that children smoke cigarettes instead of vaping lol

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 22:51

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

It's possible to work on two issues at once.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 01:47

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Caffeine has like 5 annual deaths

Tobacco has 7 million, that's prob why people see the two as dissimilar.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 10:39

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

nicotine is one of the most profoundly addictive substances on the planet

quote:

Some the addictive nicotine potential comes from additives in cigarettes. When you remove that and it exists in a more "pure" form the effects on the body are broadly similar to caffeine. We know this because there is a long track record of study done on NRT (patches, gums, lozenges) and the relative safety of the products.

This is just complete horseshit and is not in the least how ACH and the dopaminergic activity of nicotine work to reinforce behavior.

If you mean 'some' as in like 2% maybe

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 17:02

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Oxycontin was marketed as less a less addictive alternative, too. Nicotine, like oxycodone, is unbelievably addictive regardless of what packaging you put it in and what marketing materials you produce for it.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 18:26

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

None of what you posted makes any credible claim that nicotine is meaningfully less addictive when formulated differently.

E: lol neither of the links even suggest what you're claiming, even in a roundabout way and one is a loving blog link dude

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 4, 2019

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 18:37

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

There's like ugs of maois in tobacco smoke, nicotine on it's own is still unbelievably addictive.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 18:48

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

bruh you don't know poo poo about the pharmacology of this stuff clearly, to quote your favorite report,

quote:

However, the addictiveness of any nicotine-containing
product depends on several factors beyond merely the presence of nicotine.
These factors primarily include the rate at which nicotine is absorbed and
delivered to the brain, and the dose of nicotine delivered. Other factors, such as
the speed at which the drug is metabolised and how soon withdrawal symptoms
occur, play a role. This is particularly relevant to nicotine, given its short half-life
(about 2 h), but this is a feature of the drug more than the product delivering the
drug. A nicotine-containing product will therefore be more or less addictive
depending on the dose and rate at which the nicotine is delivered. Essentially, a
product that delivers a high dose rapidly will have a greater liability for addiction
than one that delivers a low dose slowly

Ignoring for a second that this is literally word for word how oxycontin was sold as a less addictive alternative to oxycodone, vaping is exactly equal to smoking for rate of absorbtion. Anything that puts the lungs in contact with a vaporized substance is going to be extremely rapid absorption. Smoke also causes the lungs to constrict more, potentially minimizing surface area wheras glycerin and pg vapor is wildly easier to inhale deeply. Your link just says that if we gave a gently caress about less addictive alternatives to cigs we'd be giving people nicotine patches.

E: also further lol

quote:

Menthol and other flavourings (including cloves and liquorice) increase the
palatability of cigarette smoke and, in the case of menthol and cloves, facilitate
deeper inhalation and therefore a higher nicotine dose (owing to their
cooling/local anaesthetic effects). These are widely added at levels below those
used in what are conventionally considered to be �flavoured� cigarettes. Flavours
may also become conditioned reinforcers in themselves, as a consequence of their
repeated pairing with nicotine.75

Again I'm just seeing that vaping carries most of the same risks and that if we wanted an actually minimally addictive alternative we'd be giving people patches.

E2: I don't think this is making the point you think it does:

quote:

The principal determinants of the addictiveness of a nicotine-containing product
are the dose that it delivers, and the speed with which the dose is delivered. Given
that most cigarette smokers are dependent (at least to some degree) on nicotine,
targeting these determinants is a critical requirement of any harm-reduction
product. The use of additives in tobacco products and the design of the cigarette
are both engineered to enhance nicotine delivery from the cigarette, by
modifying both the palatability of the cigarette smoke (and therefore the ease
with which it can be inhaled, facilitating rapid delivery and self-titration) and the
bioavailability of the nicotine contained within it. Other factors, such as the taste
and smell of cigarette smoke, and the behavioural action of smoking, can
themselves become conditioned reinforcers over time and, although secondary to
the effects of nicotine, are important drivers of continued smoking .

This all applies equally to vaping as much as smoking, probably even more so because vaping is an easier way to continually self-titrate and because vapor is vastly more palatable than tobacco smoke.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Oct 4, 2019

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 18:57

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Dude it's making the opposite point that you are,

quote:

4.9 Summary
> Nicotine is the primary addictive component of tobacco smoke.
> When inhaled into the lungs, nicotine from tobacco smoke is absorbed and
delivered to the brain much more quickly, and in higher doses, than can be
achieved by other routes of absorption.
> This rapid delivery of repeated high doses of nicotine to the brain is thought
to underpin the addictive nature of cigarettes.
> Nicotine is metabolised quickly, causing blood levels to fall rapidly after
dosing. People who metabolise nicotine more slowly, and therefore maintain
more constant blood levels, tend to be less heavily addicted.
> Nicotine is a stimulant that improves concentration and fine motor skills.
However, once tolerance is acquired, unpleasant withdrawal symptoms occur
when nicotine blood levels fall.
> Sustained use of nicotine is reinforced by some of the co-stimuli of smoking,
such as the taste and sensation of tobacco in the throat, and the smells and
behaviours associated with smoking.
> The tobacco industry has manipulated other constituents and additives in
tobacco to enhance the addictiveness of nicotine in smoke.
> NRT products may not be effective in some smokers because they replicate
few of the delivery, sensory or behavioural characteristics of cigarettes.
> E-cigarettes have the capacity to replace more of the characteristics of
tobacco cigarettes than conventional NRT, and therefore have potential as
effective smoking substitutes.

Vaping, by similarly providing all the associated behaviors and sensations that reinforce dependence from tobacco smoking relative to say patches or gum are more likely to be satisfying. For most people the ritual process of smoking transfers very readily into vaping anyways, funny to see them confirm that here.

Worth noting that as a meta analysis you can see that the overall shortage of studies on vaping (for whatever reason that may or may not be, who can really say!) is represented in this section where the studies are almost entirely about tobacco vs conventional nrt cessation products.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Oct 4, 2019

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 19:08

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

As normal, no one is disputing 'less harmful alternative' it's every other word you use that is at issue.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 19:15

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

IMO it's loving insane that we have let almost 30% of high school kids become regular users of vapes, which as established above, are wrt addictive potential overwhelmingly functionally identical to cigarettes.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 19:26

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

regular users of tobacco prods, only 20% of all highschoolers are vapers, my bad that's not horrifying at all

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 19:30

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Part of harm reduction is you're meant to at least pretend to give a gently caress that children are getting addicted, fyi

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 19:37

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Apparently
harm reduction for lifelong smokers: important

keeping literal children from becoming lifelong tobacco users: well, about that, if u look at my figures

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 20:04

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Bullfrog posted:

When I was a teen in the late 2000s, smoking hookah was pretty much ubiquitous, especially among the stoner kids at my school.

I don't remember any hookah panic even though that was way worse for us. They might have just pressured 21+ hookah bars to shut down.

Hookahs are large, impractical, expensive, and not something most people are doing regularly here.

On the other hand, in places where they are culturally relevant they're a big problem and people absolutely do smoke hookah all day causing all the problems you would expect from people sitting around in smokey rooms.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 21:23

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

vincentpricesboner posted:

do you think the best solution to the youth using vapes is totally banning of vapes or some kind of special restrictions not currently in the market?

Treat them a lot like cigarettes, make them a 21+ purchase with very harsh penalties to people who sell to anyone underage, heavily limit where and how they can be advertised. Apply most of the stuff limiting where tobacco products can be used to include vaping as well. As a general premise, any time someone hits the age of majority already addicted to something I think society has failed them, but that's just a basic component of sensible policy wrt addictive psychoactive compounds. Ironically I think vape shops might be a net good for this because they're easy to age gate

Knifefan posted:

Prohibiting flavored vape products and heavily restricting sales makes smoking tobacco more appealing. Also, describing high schoolers who vape(largely in the 16-18 age cohort) as "literal children" completely robs them of their agency. We have seen this age cohort become leaders on social issues like global warming and gun control and we trust them to operate motor vehicles and be employed. They do not need to be protected from nicotine which, absent disastrous public policy proposals, has a safety profile similar to other mild-moderate stimulants.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2019 17:53

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

vincentpricesboner posted:

So take back everything we've ever said about vaping being safer. Turns out inhaling anything is going to give you cancer. New study that just came out. I am hoping to hear some more about who paid for the research and if there isn't something funny hear (because it doesn't make much sense to me scientifically). Its very prelimary research but should vape smoke causing a 4000% increase in the rate of lung cancer versus the control group.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/07/e-cigarettes-cause-lung-cancer-in-mice-finds-first-study-tying-vaping-to-cancer.html

jesus

quote:

In the NYU study, researchers found that e-cigarette vapor caused DNA damage in the lungs and bladder and �inhibits DNA repair in lung tissues.� Out of 40 mice exposed to e-cigarette vapor with nicotine over 54 weeks, 22.5% developed lung cancer and 57.5% developed precancerous lesions on the bladder.

None of the 20 mice exposed to e-cigarette smoke without nicotine developed cancer over the four years they studied the mice, researchers said.

That�s �statistically very significant,� said Tang, who�s a professor at the NYU School of Medicine.

# ¿ Oct 9, 2019 05:12

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Seanzor posted:

Thank you for posting this! Extremely encouraging to see rational interpretation of the available data from a gov't authority.

Re: CDC study showing that youth cigarette + vaping use is now higher than cigarette use pre-vaping being remotely mainstream � I wonder how much of that data's youth vaping cohort includes users of THC vapes rather than nic vapes. The 20% cannabis use rate suggests it could be substantial.

Also: I need to quit vaping sometime in the next year, before my kid turns 2 and might possibly see me vaping and form a lasting memory of it (I only do it outside, never around him, but still) � anyone have anecdotes/data on nic lozenges or other alternatives? Any issues with long-term use I should be concerned with? Cold turkey does not work for me.

I used patches and for the first week or two some leftover nicotine gum I had, as well and it was honestly pretty easy because i was hosed up on nicotine 24/7 until like the 3rd or 4th step of patches. Exercise really helps, eating decently really helps once you get your appetite back, and make sure you have something to do with your hands basically at all times and/or something to chew on and it'll suck but it's not that bad. Personally, I found that the desire for nicotine wasn't as dangerous as the desire or urge to go buy a pack of cigarettes. Obviously don't backslide, but buying a pack/more vape juice or whatever is how you undo all of your hard work.

Anyways, it sucks, but it's doable, I quit a pack a day habit and was around chain smokers all day and was just hella stubborn about not smoking a single time ever.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2019 09:18

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

Tim Raines IRL posted:

either there's a massive epidemic where one kid in fifteen attempts suicide every year and most are really bad at it, or kids lie on surveys?

92-95% of suicides are unsuccessful, so yeah, that's believable. It's part of the reason why gun access impacts suicide rates so heavily: gun attempts are much, much more likely to be successful.

E:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/

Also guess which of these methods are most popular among youth

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Oct 14, 2019

# ¿ Oct 14, 2019 01:52

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

people jumping off of small bridges into fast rivers? Plus 50% of people in the US can't swim so that would explain a big chunk of it, too. If you can't swim, then 10 feet of still water is lethal.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 09:39 on Oct 14, 2019

# ¿ Oct 14, 2019 09:36

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

you just described nicotine addiction literally to a t, fyi.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2019 09:49

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

inkblottime posted:

The effects of nicotine addition last, I believe a week.

This is very much not the case and if it was quitting would be way, way easier. It's 1-3 months for for most people (somewhat debatably, up to years for some). Heavy nicotine use will rewire your brain in some pretty substantial ways that don't just undo themselves. Your neurotransmitter levels will return to a homeostasic level, but you have the greatly increased receptor density for life more or less.

Condiv posted:

yeah i'm p sure he's aware of the fact he has a nicotine addiction

reread what he wrote? where he says it's not the addiction

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Nov 7, 2019

# ¿ Nov 7, 2019 04:06

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

It appears someone used the vit e oil in something other than thc carts. Also likely that at least a few people who thought they were vaping nicotine were handed a vape that was loaded with some thc juice lol. Which brings up the point that carts should be very clearly labeled wrt what is in them and at what potency.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2019 04:43

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 17:38

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 7 hours!

nicotine is soluble in lipids though

eg, vit e acetate, a lipid

# ¿ Nov 11, 2019 21:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Vaping/Tobacco Harm Reduction - You can't cut vaping! Juul regret this!