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I've got a dumb question: would it make sense for Winslow to reference Captain Ahab? Because if I'm remembering correctly, Moby-Dick had a moderate popularity when it was released in the 1850s but didn't become the wide cultural cornerstone until the 1920s. Would it be like if I were to reference a book that was a New York Times bestseller for a week or two in the late 90s in conversation? Like calling someone a real, uhhh, Troy Phelan From The Testament type.
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Nov 5, 2019 02:39
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Is there a set date for this then? It feels like it's very deliberately not set anywhere/when.
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Nov 5, 2019 02:45
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NienNunb posted:I've got a dumb question: would it make sense for Winslow to reference Captain Ahab? Because if I'm remembering correctly, Moby-Dick had a moderate popularity when it was released in the 1850s but didn't become the wide cultural cornerstone until the 1920s. Would it be like if I were to reference a book that was a New York Times bestseller for a week or two in the late 90s in conversation? Like calling someone a real, uhhh, Troy Phelan From The Testament type. I had this same thought but as the person above me said it's not specifically set in any one time and the weird Beckett vibe of the whole thing made me feel like I shouldn't take it too literally anyway
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Nov 5, 2019 02:48
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They pretty specifically establish the year being 2002 during the extended scene where Tom uses his Brittney Spears singing tooth brush
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Nov 5, 2019 03:19
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The_Doctor posted:Is there a set date for this then? It feels like it's very deliberately not set anywhere/when. An official synopsis said 1800s I believe, but it doesn't much matter really
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Nov 5, 2019 03:50
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In interviews about the production Eggers has repeatedly said 1890s. He certainly seems to be a pretty exacting dude when it comes to this sort of thing, from what he has said the equipment, clothes, dialects, and procedures were all directly adapted as much as he could from that decade.
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Nov 5, 2019 04:27
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Really solid movie that I'll probably be thinking about for a while. I liked it much more than I liked The Witch on first watch (recently saw it for a third time), but that movie is definitely a lot tighter. Not really an issue though because The Lighthouse is far more deliberately disorienting as far as passage of time and such. The mermaid was extremely freaky to me and I can't believe its presence wasn't spoiled for me. Also I thought the last shot was a bit on the nose with all of the Prometheus stuff being mentioned in dialogue multiple times. I personally would've had the credits roll while he's screaming at the light, similarly to how The Witch ends. Also what is Robert Eggers' deal with the name Thomas? Henchman of Santa fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 06:45
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If anyone read Moby Dick in the 1890s it'd be these guys.
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Nov 5, 2019 11:49
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Perpetual posted:In interviews about the production Eggers has repeatedly said 1890s. He certainly seems to be a pretty exacting dude when it comes to this sort of thing, from what he has said the equipment, clothes, dialects, and procedures were all directly adapted as much as he could from that decade. Yeah Eggers is a big nerd about this, he’s said getting the setting right is essential for him. He’s said that the idea of building a world up using the setting as a mere jumping off point would be paralyzing to him. His movies are highly committed period pieces.
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Nov 5, 2019 18:32
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feedmyleg posted:If anyone read Moby Dick in the 1890s it'd be these guys. That's what I'm thinking. It may have been hobbyist literature and too broad/weird for most, but you know Wick could quote some parts by heart.
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Nov 5, 2019 21:27
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Something I enjoyed that hasn’t been brought up: I think it’s possible to read the characters of Fake Ephraim Winslow and Thomas Wake as manifestations of Young Thomas’ deteriorating psyche. There’s a lot of references to the fact that neither of them know how long they’ve been on the island and how they seem to participate in several shared delusions. At the very least, their shared name led me to think about how they reflexively mirror aspects of each other. Wake’s persona makes more sense from someone like Winslow and vice versa. I feel like on some level those visible contradictions are the bedrock for their resentment of each other.
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Nov 6, 2019 14:35
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I feel like these guys would have been fine if they had some slightly more modern plumbing. Potable water and a private place to jerk it would have gone a long way.Oneavi posted:Something I enjoyed that hasn’t been brought up: I think it’s possible to read the characters of Fake Ephraim Winslow and Thomas Wake as manifestations of Young Thomas’ deteriorating psyche. There’s a lot of references to the fact that neither of them know how long they’ve been on the island and how they seem to participate in several shared delusions. I was thinking about this as well while I was watching the movie, but I couldn’t fully reconcile it with the narrative. I really want to rewatch it.
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Nov 6, 2019 16:47
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Oneavi posted:Something I enjoyed that hasn’t been brought up: I think it’s possible to read the characters of Fake Ephraim Winslow and Thomas Wake as manifestations of Young Thomas’ deteriorating psyche. There’s a lot of references to the fact that neither of them know how long they’ve been on the island and how they seem to participate in several shared delusions. I did think it was neat how he was reflexively able to predict the exact way Ephraim/Thomas is going to kill him right from the start of the movie - (paraphrasing) "I thought ye was going to split my head in two."
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Nov 6, 2019 17:26
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My one sour spot in the whole movie was that the gore from Wick's head didn't look right. I'd guess it was CGI, but I don't know for certain.
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Nov 6, 2019 23:18
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It's Wake, not Wick.
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Nov 6, 2019 23:40
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Right after the movie, the friend I saw it with said “so there was really only one guy right?” And the only response I could come up with was “yes,no,maybe? Does it even matter?” And I’m sticking by that.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:03
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I briefly considered "time doesn't work right at the lighthouse, and they're both the same guy at different points", but even if that's right or wrong, it doesn't matter very much.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:22
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I feel given the Prometheus imagery, that Wake is like an elder god. Older, wiser, but still a bastard.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:37
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Henchman of Santa posted:It's Wake, not Wick. I thought he said Wick too, and was laughing at the irony of being called Wick and being a ‘wicky’ as he said a moment before. Then I read the end credits.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:47
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Oh dang I was too distracted by the sea shanty to catch that. I thought for sure it was Wick for the same reasons.
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Nov 7, 2019 02:04
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Today I watched this movie alone in an entirely empty theater and I'm crazy now. Probably should have been drinking seawater for the full effect.
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Nov 7, 2019 02:23
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I would not recommend this movie if you’re feeling the least bit queasy going into it. One of the greatest entries into the Booze Horror genre.
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Nov 7, 2019 05:02
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I hated the way Defoe pushed the food around on his plate, onto his fork, back off again, but never actually ate any.
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Nov 7, 2019 05:03
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NienNunb posted:I've got a dumb question: would it make sense for Winslow to reference Captain Ahab? Because if I'm remembering correctly, Moby-Dick had a moderate popularity when it was released in the 1850s but didn't become the wide cultural cornerstone until the 1920s. Would it be like if I were to reference a book that was a New York Times bestseller for a week or two in the late 90s in conversation? Like calling someone a real, uhhh, Troy Phelan From The Testament type. No, it really doesn’t make sense.
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Nov 7, 2019 06:20
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The_Doctor posted:I hated the way Defoe pushed the food around on his plate, onto his fork, back off again, but never actually ate any. Did he? That almost certainly would feel intentional.
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Nov 7, 2019 06:31
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Gejimayu posted:Did he? That almost certainly would feel intentional. Actors push food around to give the appearance that they’re going to eat but try to avoid actually eating for continuity reasons. Usually a scene will be shot with a bunch of coverage so if they take one huge bite of the hoagie or whatever they’ll be expected to do it twenty more times. edit: Although iirc Eggers said he doesn’t shoot a bunch of coverage so who knows. Drunkboxer fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 14:06
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I've seen it twice now, and there's a big through-line that I picked up on the 2nd viewing that I haven't seen mentioned yet. The topic is a little off-putting, and spoilers some stuff, but I think it's interesting and ties a few loose points together. Winslow is afraid that Thomas is going to rape him throughout the film. Winslow doesn't drink for two reasons: 1) he is an alcoholic and a violent drunk, 2) he does not want to be taken advantage of, sexually, by Thomas During their first interaction in the kitchen, Thomas refers to Winslow in feminine terms. At first it seems derogatory, but it's also like he's negging him, much like PUA. The conversation ends with "Don't get upset with me, I'm just calling you cute." Thomas invites Winslow to drink on their first night out of genuine comradery, but also to lower Winslow's guard. Winslow instead drinks the dirty water. Of course, Winslow is correct in the assertion that keeping sailors drunk is a form of suppression, but it also makes them more vulnerable The scene with the Thomas by the light with tentacles is a dream sequence. It is introduced with Winslow laying in his bed, trying to sleep. It cuts immediately to a dream or a waking fantasy. The tentacles and the ooze-like semen are nightmarish elaborations of his mind fearing Thomas's sexual predation. Tentacles are phallic, and imply being tethered and held against your will, strangulation, binding. The ooze is a fear of ejaculate. There are many moments where Winslow says "I know what yer doin'." This is after Winslow has gaslit him a few times, but it seems to imply something greater, more sinister, but it doesn't seem to relate to his paranoid idea of keeping away the light. As vague as it is, Winslow's story of his fellow logger dying seems to come from a fear of homosexuality. Either the man also came onto Winslow, or made a pass, or Winslow was paranoid in thinking the man had sexual proclivities to him, Winslow's response was violence. He responds to Thomas's attempt to kiss him with fists, and proceeds to beat the poo poo out of him. Again, this is premeditated with Winslow saying "I know what you're doing." Thomas kills a gull and puts it in the water supply while Winslow is sleeping. This taints the water supply, making a larger force for Winslow to drink the alcohol. This is near the end of their tenure, so the reason can't only be for compliance when it comes to work or socializing. When Winslow finally accepts the drink, Thomas pours him several other large shots. If getting inebriated were the goal, a sober man would be drunk off one or two. But if you were interested in taking advantage of someone, you would give a sober person as much to drink as they can swallow. There is enough ambiguity in the story where Thomas may not be trying to rape or have sex with Winslow, but Winslow's fear of this is genuine and pops up throughout the film, after the first night when Thomas calls him feminine and pretty. OB_Juan posted:I briefly considered "time doesn't work right at the lighthouse, and they're both the same guy at different points", but even if that's right or wrong, it doesn't matter very much. Time does work at the lighthouse. And Winslow is sane, albeit an alcoholic with violent tendencies and paranoid thoughts. Thomas, however, does in fact gaslight him on several occasions, and also shows signs of senility. The first time this occurs is Thomas telling Winslow about his partner dying after being driven mad by the light. He is covering up that he murdered his partner. He sees that the story gets under his skin. The second time Thomas tells Winslow about the gulls. Thomas genuinely believes the lore to be true, and slaps Winslow for denying it. Thomas acts brash and, realizing that Winslow is a younger, imposing, and very strong man (whom he also fancies a bit as a cute dandy), he cowers from him.. Then, later, once Winslow becomes a drunk, Thomas has complete confidence that Winslow's grasp on reality is now slippery, and begins to say things to distort his grip on reality. All of the talk of "how long has it been?" is Thomas loving with Winslow in a sociopathic way. He is bored, he is old and bitter, and Winslow is gullible and drunk and plays into his mind games. Winslow does find the head of Thomas's old partner. We don't get to read the book Winslow gets to read, but there's not enough evidence to cast doubt on what Winslow reads. The accumulation of Thomas's lies makes sense. We objectively see Thomas lie several times. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 14:12
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Trying to think of how many overt references or subtle nods to the Shining there were, besides the general concept (people go insane in an isolated location during harsh weather). Off the top of my head: Wake suddenly appearing with an axe and using it on Winslow Beautiful young woman turning into a gross old person and strangling the protagonist (I don’t remember if she chokes Jack in the movie but she does choke Danny in the book version of that scene) Winslow stumbling upon Wake’s writings and realizing he’s in grave danger (this is kind of a horror trope to be fair
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Nov 7, 2019 14:50
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Henchman of Santa posted:Trying to think of how many overt references or subtle nods to the Shining there were, besides the general concept (people go insane in an isolated location during harsh weather). Thomas writing in the book echoes shots of Jack working on the typewriter.
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Nov 7, 2019 14:58
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What exactly was Thomas doing to the bed when Winslow peeked in the hole? it looked like he was humping Winslow's bed to me which could be another piece of evidence for the rape/rape paranoia interpretation.
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Nov 7, 2019 16:15
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I thought he was just sleeping?
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Nov 7, 2019 16:20
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yorkinshire posted:What exactly was Thomas doing to the bed when Winslow peeked in the hole? it looked like he was humping Winslow's bed to me which could be another piece of evidence for the rape/rape paranoia interpretation. I thought he was just farting big time
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Nov 7, 2019 16:29
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Henchman of Santa posted:I thought he was just farting big time That's what one of my friends I saw it with thought as well.
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Nov 7, 2019 16:46
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Franchescanado posted:
I definitely agree with most of what you’re saying, but I don’t know if this can be true considering this: quote:Thomas tells Winslow about the gulls. Thomas genuinely believes the lore to be true, and slaps Winslow for denying it. Thomas acts brash and, realizing that Winslow is a younger, imposing, and very strong man (whom he also fancies a bit as a cute dandy), he cowers from him.. Unless Thomas did it in some sort of fugue state, which I suppose is possible. Honestly, I do think that there’s something wrong (or sinister) with the island/lighthouse. I think when Winslow kills the gull he summons the storm, and the mermaid figurine is a form of sympathetic magic that’s working on Winslow as much as the isolation and booze is. I just think the supernatural stuff is extremely subtle.
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Nov 7, 2019 16:47
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yorkinshire posted:What exactly was Thomas doing to the bed when Winslow peeked in the hole? it looked like he was humping Winslow's bed to me which could be another piece of evidence for the rape/rape paranoia interpretation. On both viewings, I thought he is masturbating in his own bed. He is facedown, but his back is arched, like he's humping his hand, or possibly a hole in the mattress, or pillow. Drunkboxer posted:Unless Thomas did it in some sort of fugue state, which I suppose is possible. Honestly, I do think that there’s something wrong (or sinister) with the island/lighthouse. I think when Winslow kills the gull he summons the storm, and the mermaid figurine is a form of sympathetic magic that’s working on Winslow as much as the isolation and booze is. I just think the supernatural stuff is extremely subtle. It's the only thing that really makes sense. There's no reason to suspect Winslow of sleepwalking. He didn't kill the gull himself, cuz he would know about the blood. He's sober at this point, so his memory is fine. Thomas may have killed the gull himself, or found one dead and threw it in the water, or did it in a fugue state. I will say, that all of the lore and legends that Thomas says is real. The gulls probably are the souls of past sailors. It's bad luck to kill a gull, but Thomas may not care about the bad luck. He's more interested in his manipulations with Winslow. Or, like I said, he does it in a weird fugue state. Look at Thomas's big speech: Thomas Wake: drat ye! Let Neptune strike ye dead Winslow! HAAARK! Thomas Wake: Hark Triton, hark! Bellow, bid our father the Sea King rise from the depths full foul in his fury! Black waves teeming with salt foam to smother this young mouth with pungent slime, ... Winslow, when he climbs the stairs to look into the light, is covered in a black substance. Fuel? Oil? Blood? Something. ...to choke ye, engorging your organs til' ye turn blue and bloated with bilge and brine and can scream no more -... Winslow literally screams until he screams no more, falling down the stairs. only when he, crowned in cockle shells with slitherin' tentacle tail and steaming beard take up his fell be-finned arm, his coral-tine trident screeches banshee-like in the tempest and plunges right through yer gullet, bursting ye - a bulging bladder no more, but a blasted bloody film now and nothing for the harpies and the souls of dead sailors to peck and claw and feed upon only to be lapped up and swallowed by the infinite waters of the Dread Emperor himself - forgotten to any man, to any time, forgotten to any god or devil, forgotten even to the sea, for any stuff for part of Winslow, even any scantling of your soul is Winslow no more, but is now itself the sea! He is literally devoured by the gulls and will be eventually washed away from the shore he lays on by the current. So, as far as I can tell--and I may be wrong, I admit--but all of Thomas's curses and legends are, to a point, true and fulfilled.
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Nov 7, 2019 17:35
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Franchescanado posted:Winslow, when he climbs the stairs to look into the light, is covered in a black substance. Fuel? Oil? Blood? Something. I thought there was a missing/cut scene here as there’s no indication of where that came from.
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Nov 7, 2019 17:37
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Franchescanado posted:On both viewings, I thought he is masturbating in his own bed. He is facedown, but his back is arched, like he's humping his hand, or possibly a hole in the mattress, or pillow. Yeah I think it’s definitely this, nothing else even occurred to me. quote:
For some reason I thought that the bird just went in there and got stuck.
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Nov 7, 2019 18:56
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Drunkboxer posted:For some reason I thought that the bird just went in there and got stuck. I believe that it's been pulverized and it's body is contorted. It may even be two birds. I wish there were a screen grab for that shot, to know for sure.
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Nov 7, 2019 19:12
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Saw this last night and enjoyed it, mostly for the same reasons as everyone else here. This is hard to articulate, but...artsy or challenging movies can frustrate me if the enjoyment of the film is too heavily contingent on "getting" it. I really appreciated that none of the weirdness hinged on grasping some clever detail or perspective. The weirder poo poo got, the more comforting it was to be reminded of a foundational truth: If you cannot figure out why something is happening or what something means, or if something is even real, you can safely fill in the blank with "because he/they are going fuckin nuts". It sounds self-evident, I guess, but I dunno, it was really helpful to have insights or revelations add to my enjoyment, yet not have the absence of an insight or revelation detract from my enjoyment. Curious if anyone else caught this: there's a shot around the first half or so I think shortly following a Winslow mermaid sex vision where Winslow's secretly observing Wake sleeping and man did the camera angle make it look like Wake's chest had a breast? Was that a) some lingering piece of the mermaid experience, b) evidence of Protean shape-shifting, c) nothing, just the camera angle on Wake's ribcage? Anyone else see this? rivetz fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 19:25
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The_Doctor posted:I thought there was a missing/cut scene here as there’s no indication of where that came from. i interpreted that as lantern oil, and him covering himself in it was a kind of ritualistic pairing with the light, which he worships as a deity.
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Nov 7, 2019 19:36
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