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Mulva posted:There was an entire bit where Kurt had to sit down and figure out a system of belief for the culture because people were just having babies and throwing them in the woods and generally just doing whatever they wanted. Because consequences aren't real, you know? You have people that can make infinite resources, and you are immortal, so what does anything really matter? One of the Orchis plans for destroying the island was "Do nothing", because they were on a path to destroying themselves through hedonistic disconnect. A big part of that story was highlighting an initial lack of guidance from the leadership for the common citizen, combined with Orchis releasing Onslaught onto the island to exaggerate their worse impulses. Both of these where addressed in the comic. Also, I think the "babies in the woods" issue was the least thought out issue of Si Spurrier's run, and one that was largely ignored in the rest of the line. At the same time, there where many comics dealing with morality on the island, both where it succeeded and where it fell short. To say morality didn't exist on the island simply doesn't match up with what we saw in the vast majority of the stories. That all said, I agree it will be a major challenge for a teenager to go from apparent paradise back to being hated and feared.
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Apr 26, 2024 19:53
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glitchwraith posted:A big part of that story was highlighting an initial lack of guidance from the leadership for the common citizen, combined with Orchis releasing Onslaught onto the island to exaggerate their worse impulses. Both of these where addressed in the comic. Also, I think the "babies in the woods" issue was the least thought out issue of Si Spurrier's run, and one that was largely ignored in the rest of the line. At the same time, there where many comics dealing with morality on the island, both where it succeeded and where it fell short. To say morality didn't exist on the island simply doesn't match up with what we saw in the vast majority of the stories. poo poo, I know how bad it felt to go from six months of disability unemployement + covid pay after my heart surgery in january of 2020 where, once I had my mobility back I got to do whatever I wanted instead of being chained to a work schedule while at the same time getting more money than I received when I was working.
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Apr 26, 2024 20:19
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glitchwraith posted:A big part of that story was highlighting an initial lack of guidance from the leadership for the common citizen, combined with Orchis releasing Onslaught onto the island to exaggerate their worse impulses. Both of these where addressed in the comic. Also, I think the "babies in the woods" issue was the least thought out issue of Si Spurrier's run, and one that was largely ignored in the rest of the line. At the same time, there where many comics dealing with morality on the island, both where it succeeded and where it fell short. To say morality didn't exist on the island simply doesn't match up with what we saw in the vast majority of the stories.
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Apr 26, 2024 20:33
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glitchwraith posted:A big part of that story was highlighting an initial lack of guidance from the leadership for the common citizen, combined with Orchis releasing Onslaught onto the island to exaggerate their worse impulses. Both of these where addressed in the comic. Also, I think the "babies in the woods" issue was the least thought out issue of Si Spurrier's run, and one that was largely ignored in the rest of the line. At the same time, there where many comics dealing with morality on the island, both where it succeeded and where it fell short. To say morality didn't exist on the island simply doesn't match up with what we saw in the vast majority of the stories. This "there was no morality on Krakoa" is a weird idea I've seen a few times as I've bounced around the X community the past month or so. I dunno why. Just earlier today somebody told me they were stealing mutant babies and felt righteous in doing so. I had to scratch my head at this since I just finished reading both Children of the Atom and Cable, the former dealing extensively with how the leadership of Krakoa will emphatically not force (supposed) mutant children to come to Krakoa, and the latter with them returning kidnapped mutant babies to their families. And in New Mutants Gabby is doing her absolute best to stop her friends from being manipulated by the Shadow King because she knows how it feels and wants to stop them from being used. Now, her friends are wrong to trust a bastard like him, but I can see where they are coming from. Everybody telling them their mutant status is a gift or blessing while they look and live as they do. That seems to me to be the true struggle of Krakoa - not abandoning morality but finding a morality which takes into account the unique problems of mutants like Cosmar. EDIT: quote:With Professor X gone and his school transformed into a nightmare reflection of itself, the series sees Rogue step up to be the pillar of Xavier’s dream alongside Wolverine, Gambit, Nightcrawler, and Jubilee. From their new base of operations in New Orleans, the Uncanny X-Men are back to being the outlaw heroes the world hates and fears—and the light in the darkness for mutants everywhere! Mutantkind made a big statement with Krakoa, and now, life is harder for them than ever before, but Rogue’s X-Men will be there to welcome mutants to their new found family. As mentioned I'm a new reader still making my way through Krakoa, and after that I wanna go back and read the Decimation through AvX era, but I just found this little blurb fascinating. I'm sure there's a lot of nuances I'm missing, having not read the issues in question as of yet, but it strikes me as really interesting that Wolverine of all people tends to be on "Team Idealist" in these splits. Was he not against Revolutionary Cyclops in Schism and AVX? Apparently, Scott is once again entering that mindset and once again Wolverine stands with what seems like the most impossible dream. My main source of reference is still cartoons where his "ruthless pragmatism" tends to be in opposition to the idealists. the latest ep of X-Men '97 is a perfect example. But in these..."ideological conflicts" he is on the idealist side of things. If I'm understanding all this right. As I said, still got so much to read. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 20:44
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Well I mean the true struggle of Krakoa was pretending anything they were doing mattered in the face of the looming threat of the status quo, but they managed it longer than most of these things do so good on them. Still lost in the end, largely because of the moral compromises it made from the beginning.
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Apr 26, 2024 20:52
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NikkolasKing posted:This "there was no morality on Krakoa" is a weird idea I've seen a few times as I've bounced around the X community the past month or so. I dunno why. Wolverine is genuinely an idealist. Like half his personality is "I am not someone who should be praise or lauded, I am a bad individual who does bad things, you should be looking at (insert whatever teenage girl he's currently mentoring/Cyclops/Captain America) to see a real hero" and wants those heroes to succeed and for people like himself to be no longer needed or necessary.
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Apr 26, 2024 20:59
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ImpAtom posted:Wolverine is genuinely an idealist. Like half his personality is "I am not someone who should be praise or lauded, I am a bad individual who does bad things, you should be looking at (insert whatever teenage girl he's currently mentoring/Cyclops/Captain America) to see a real hero" and wants those heroes to succeed and for people like himself to be no longer needed or necessary. But then he goes off and does X-Force where dirty deeds are done dirt cheap. Hell, he was part of Cyclops' X-Force for a time, correct? I understand he wants a time where people like him are no longer necessary, but I'm sure Cyclops would say the same thing. "I'm doing what needs to be done for a better future for mutants." Like I said earlier, the precise nuance of it all will probably be clearer once I can get to the issues in question. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 21:04
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NikkolasKing posted:This "there was no morality on Krakoa" is a weird idea I've seen a few times as I've bounced around the X community the past month or so. I dunno why. I think he's had a lot of development that "softened" him over the years and don't forget he was the head of the Xaviar school for awhile, Wolverine and the X-Men by Jason Aaron, definitely worth a read. He's always been a idealist who loves doling out lessons to those he takes under wing, him being a mentor just an important and continuous characteristic of Wolverine as having adamantium claws and being the best at what he does, etc. E: and that's why he's content to do all the murdering, because that way the rest of Xavier's dream is uncorrupted.
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Apr 26, 2024 21:18
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NikkolasKing posted:But then he goes off and does X-Force where dirty deeds are done dirt cheap. Hell, he was part of Cyclops' X-Force for a time, correct? Side question, does Utopia still exist? I mean as a physical piece of geography hanging out near San Francisco
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Apr 26, 2024 21:26
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Shageletic posted:I think he's had a lot of development that "softened" him over the years and don't forget he was the head of the Xaviar school for awhile, Wolverine and the X-Men by Jason Aaron, definitely worth a read. That is a funny thing about Comic Wolverine: it's entirely fair to define his character as a brooding loner and also as a loving mentor. There's no contradiction there for him. I haven't read as many of his mentor stories yet but I need to get around to them. That Kitty Pryde mini is on my radar just like Wolverine and the X-Men But this all is reminding me of how in 2009, there were no less than two separate stories of "Wolverine and Spiderman go to a bar." I was reading Wolverine #74 by Aaron and I enjoy looking up reviews of what I've read so I read a review of it from when it first came out and was told just earlier that same yere, there was this from Amazing Spiderman Extra #2        I guess maybe what makes Wolverine an idealist is he wants so badly to be that kind of "real hero" but feels he doesn't deserve it, or even that others won't see him that way. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Apr 28, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 21:28
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Air Skwirl posted:Yeah, the Uncanny X-Force run immediately before Remender's was explicitly a kill squad set up by Cyclops. i'm pretty sure hydra blew it up during secret empire
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Apr 26, 2024 21:30
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NikkolasKing posted:But then he goes off and does X-Force where dirty deeds are done dirt cheap. Hell, he was part of Cyclops' X-Force for a time, correct? Wolverine, paradoxically, doesn't think good people should be doing those things. He is a Bad Person and so he will do the Bad Thing to make it easier for the Good People to do Good Things but he thinks it is a serious problem. That's kind of the whole idea of the covert/black-ops thing, to be the guy who 'handles' that stuff. For all he's the way he is, he genuinely does believe the world can and should be better and that even the 'necessary evil' is still evil. (Obviously it's more complex than that and Wolverine is genuinely a good person who feels the guilt over his actions fiercely, but that's part of the whole Soul Of A Man Inside A Beast thing.)
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Apr 26, 2024 21:33
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Mulva posted:Man it's going to suck being a teenage mutant, I mean even more than usual. You spend the past few years being told it's your time, and you are special, and you are beyond the humans now. Teenage mutants going around getting themselves killed as a right of passage to show they've moved beyond death. Spending a ton of your formative years really baking all that propaganda in your head..... - Shortly after the mutant nation of Genosha was annihilated by a giant Sentinel, a former Avengers cast a spell to depower 99% of all mutants, statistically including you - The planet is infiltrated and nearly conquered by Skrulls - The Skrulls are defeated but a crazy evil dude basically takes over the country, and he is not too fond of mutants! If you still have powers, maybe you get to move to another island nation that is constantly under attack? - Norse Gods aligned with Nazis attack and nearly take over the world, and none of them are very fond of mutants! - The Cosmic Phoenix Force comes back and takes over the planet and nearly destroys it, but on the upside you might have gotten your powers back? - Thanos attacks the planet while also an alien race attacks the planet. Thanos just wants to kill anyone who might be his kid, the aliens want to destroy the planet to keep the universe from being destroyed. - The entire universe is destroyed anyway and rebuilt, though the odds are good that you do not remember that part - In the aftermath of Thanos's thing, giant clouds are floating around that will kill you if you breathe them. You may or may not be relocated to a demon-haunted other dimension to avoid the poison. - The poison clouds are fixed, but Nazis (aligned with a Norse God) really do take over the country, and they are not fond of mutants! They've got camps and everyting - Nearly all of the famous X-Men get murdered and the few survivors set off to kill all of the evil mutants before mutants stop existing (also Norse Gods invade Earth again in the middle of this) - Krakoa is built! Finally you have a nice island for you to reign supreme on! The island is pretty consistently under attack, but at least they can resurrect you when a robot/alien/assassin kills you - The planet (and island) is invaded by hostile aliens who are also plants (but if they kill you, you can get resurrected) - The planet (and island) is invaded by hostile aliens who are red goo that possesses you (but if they kill you, you can get resurrected) - The planet (and island) is invaded by hostile aliens who are even more evil black good that posseses you (but if they kill you, you can get resurrected) - A different non-Norse God shows up and has judged all of humanity including mutants lacking and is going to destroy the Earth I don't disagree that it would be an interesting story thread to pull at, but I feel like pulling at that thread goes back to "how would anyone function if they lived in a world that had something more disruptive than COVID-19 every few months, and a 9-11 style attack almost weekly? site posted:i'm pretty sure hydra blew it up during secret empire
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Apr 26, 2024 22:43
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What exactly would be Xavier's dream now that Krakoa is gone? I'm just responding to the new series with Rogue leading the X-men in New Orleans. Before it was for mutants to peacefully co-exist with humans, but I don't know how mutants could have such a positive attitude after what Orchis did. Granted, Orchis is a human supremacy group that doesn't represent all humans, but it's still kinda weird.
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Apr 27, 2024 03:16
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Isn't Genosha still the single greatest atrocity against mutantkind in the comics in terms of raw numbers? Also hell, do we have any inkling for how long Genoshan slavery was going on before Cameron Hodge forced the issue to a head? Like I know sliding timeline and all, but are we talking about years or generations of mutant slavery? Genosha is loving cursed and I can't imagine why any mutant would come within like a million mils of that place.
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Apr 27, 2024 03:32
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John Yossarian posted:What exactly would be Xavier's dream now that Krakoa is gone? I'm just responding to the new series with Rogue leading the X-men in New Orleans. Before it was for mutants to peacefully co-exist with humans, but I don't know how mutants could have such a positive attitude after what Orchis did. Granted, Orchis is a human supremacy group that doesn't represent all humans, but it's still kinda weird. There's this record of human atrocities against mutants early on in Krakoa, I forget exactly where  (I think they got the wrong Trask but maybe they just blame him for inventing Sentinels at all?)) But my point is, between all this, to say nothing of things like Days of Future Past, while I don't know what Orchis did exactly, I can't imagine it's particularly worse than some of these events.
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Apr 27, 2024 03:36
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John Yossarian posted:What exactly would be Xavier's dream now that Krakoa is gone? I'm just responding to the new series with Rogue leading the X-men in New Orleans. Before it was for mutants to peacefully co-exist with humans, but I don't know how mutants could have such a positive attitude after what Orchis did. Granted, Orchis is a human supremacy group that doesn't represent all humans, but it's still kinda weird. Xavier’s Dream was always Mutant Human coexistence. Krakoa was actually a compromise on his beliefs  He also never expected his dream to come to be during his lifetime. 
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Apr 27, 2024 03:41
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Isn't Genosha still the single greatest atrocity against mutantkind in the comics in terms of raw numbers? Also hell, do we have any inkling for how long Genoshan slavery was going on before Cameron Hodge forced the issue to a head? Like I know sliding timeline and all, but are we talking about years or generations of mutant slavery? Well Selene turned it into Necrosha so I think it’s literally cursed. It’s kind of a bit strange for them to blame the Genosha Genocide on humans however as it was a mutant who caused it.
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Apr 27, 2024 03:47
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NikkolasKing posted:(I think they got the wrong Trask but maybe they just blame him for inventing Sentinels at all?)) Bolivar was repentant at the time of his death and helped destroy the Sentinels' first base but he did get the whole giant mutant-hunting robot ball rolling.
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Apr 27, 2024 04:01
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MonsterEnvy posted:Xavier’s Dream was always Mutant Human coexistence. Krakoa was actually a compromise on his beliefs What comic is that from, if I might ask? I'm taking notes of interesting Krakoa comics to look forward to. Immortal X-Men has come highly recommended to me for multiple reasons. Such as #10 where Xavier apparently talks about how mutants are more like nuclear weapons, and also apparently establishing an endearing relationship between Exodus and Hope. But talk about Xavier's dream in the Krakoa Era reminded me of X-Men #4. I loved that issue so much.  
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Apr 27, 2024 04:17
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Bolivar Trask is interesting. Unlike pretty much all the other anti mutant characters of which he was the first, Bolivar didn't actually hate mutants, he just feared them. As an anthropologist history told him that the newly emerging mutants would abuse their power, and they would start oppressing the lesser humans once their numbers increased enough. Mutant criminals and terrorists like Magneto's Brotherhood were only helping his point. He still didn't want them wiped out, his desire was for registration and observation, with the Sentinels as a force to keep them in line. However the Sentinel's rebeling against him because of poor programing on his part resulted in him sacrificing himself to save the X-Men and everyone he could from the Sentinels, viewing them as a greater evil he created because of his fear. Still because he died before retracting his opinion he became a martyr for anti mutant forces, as the X-men were blamed for his death. A pretty good moment with him comes from when Bastion revived him as a Prime Sentinel and told him about Genosha with Trask being horrified that it was done with his creations in his name. Later he gets his freedom from Bastion for a half a minute and uses it to kill himself cause of his guilt of having to help him with his genocidal plans.
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Apr 27, 2024 04:41
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NikkolasKing posted:What comic is that from, if I might ask? Both are from Immortal X-Men.
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Apr 27, 2024 04:43
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Is Hickman's portrayal of Namor accurate? I've never read a Namor story in my life but based just on hanging around comic book nerds, I think it is? (edit: I typed this wrong originally, my bad) "I am a king, you should all love and worship me. I'm better than everyone else." And not in a blustery "aw, isn't that cute" kinda way. Very much a haughty and smug demeanor, a contempt for everyone I've seen him interact with. But, you know, he's not a bad guy. I expect this from Dr. Doom at the Gala but Namor is more often an ally from what I know. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 19:14
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Nah, Namor is a piece of poo poo in like fully 60% of his interactions. He's just passively smug in about 30% more. And the other 10% is devastated as he once again failed to be a good king/sleep with Sue. He's not what you would call a well functioning or complex adult. I mean come on, his battle cry is "Imperius Rex". Dude is running around hitting people in the face and shouting "Empire King!".
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Apr 27, 2024 19:24
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Nah, that's accurate. Namor is an rear end in a top hat. Like the number of people Namor isn't an rear end in a top hat to can be counted on one hand. It's like, Sue Richards and Captain America and that's about it. Codependent Poster fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 19:24
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Namor was also the original Wolverine as he was the guy that kept crossing over and showing up in everything. He was also the first Marvel character.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:52
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Codependent Poster posted:Nah, that's accurate. Namor is an rear end in a top hat. Hey now He likes Bucky too
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Apr 27, 2024 20:13
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Namor is awesome exactly because of how much of an rear end in a top hat he is. Same as Quicksilver. Two of my favorite outright bastards. When Hickman wrote him in New Avengers it was the best. 
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Apr 27, 2024 22:41
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Namor should not only be 100% That Bitch, but you should also suspect he is actually as cool as he thinks he is.
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Apr 27, 2024 23:35
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Soonmot posted:Namor should not only be 100% That Bitch, but you should also suspect he is actually as cool as he thinks he is. His single longest relationship is with his cousin, and he's had his kingdom blown up like six times. He's a loving loser.
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Apr 27, 2024 23:38
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yeah and yet still...
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Apr 27, 2024 23:58
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Shageletic posted:I think he's had a lot of development that "softened" him over the years and don't forget he was the head of the Xaviar school for awhile, Wolverine and the X-Men by Jason Aaron, definitely worth a read. Ehhh. Sometimes. Wolverine is a bit like Bojack horseman in that there's a lot of occasions of him going "Man, I'm so hosed up, I HAVE to do better", followed by more of the same poo poo. And it comes with the territory, comics have to go on and a well-resolved, at-peace non murderous Wolvie would sell a lot lsss than grrr-snikt-bub Wolvie. But we're talking about the guy that murdered Rachel Summers to save the life of a Chaotic Evil soul-draining immortal psychopath dominatrix Selene with a body count that rivals that of cholera. So sometimes it feels more like he's just trying to hog the title of edgy murdery guy all to himself, since he has killed dozens of hapless goons since saving that particular mass-murderer.
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Apr 28, 2024 00:02
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I dig this philosophical comic talk, and this Wolverine / Bojack tidbit is pretty fun and also relatable. I gotta stop going on X-Force missions and do some meditation.
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Apr 28, 2024 00:13
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Sephyr posted:Ehhh. Sometimes. Wolverine is a bit like Bojack horseman in that there's a lot of occasions of him going "Man, I'm so hosed up, I HAVE to do better", followed by more of the same poo poo. And it comes with the territory, comics have to go on and a well-resolved, at-peace non murderous Wolvie would sell a lot lsss than grrr-snikt-bub Wolvie. While the revolving door of it all can get tiring, it is interesting that Wolverine does try to be that Zen Master. It's what separates him from someone like The Punisher who obviously has no intention of ever changing and that is what defines him. I suppose their psychologies are different as Frank is more of a cold, detached killer, while Logan's worst traits are more born out of that berserker side of himself that he just can never conquer. But still, I think folks can relate to that "desperately wanting to be better than you are." Just like how he is beloved for brooding loner and kindly mentor, he is adored for being super violent and wishing he wasn't super violent. In my Krakoa reading I went through Wolverine: Black, White and Red. A collection of little storis of varying quality but which really scratched at all the layers of Logan. The Berserker Loner    vs. A Moment of Peace   
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Apr 28, 2024 00:42
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Sephyr posted:But we're talking about the guy that murdered Rachel Summers to save the life of a Chaotic Evil soul-draining immortal psychopath dominatrix Selene with a body count that rivals that of cholera. So sometimes it feels more like he's just trying to hog the title of edgy murdery guy all to himself, since he has killed dozens of hapless goons since saving that particular mass-murderer. Technically he just wounded Rachel as close as you can get without it being mortal, all to save the psychopath dominatrix.
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Apr 28, 2024 00:50
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OK but Namor punched A LOT of Nazis back in the day, I think he deserves a few passes
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Apr 28, 2024 00:53
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Namor is the absolute worst which is why he's the loving best. That and his abs. The king of Abslantis.
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Apr 28, 2024 00:56
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Gologle posted:OK but Namor punched A LOT of Nazis back in the day, I think he deserves a few passes He also happily banged a horrid sea-slug queen, and chided his sidekick for narrow-mindedness and body-shaming. Namor's alright by me, is all I'm saying.
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Apr 28, 2024 01:05
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X-O posted:Namor is awesome exactly because of how much of an rear end in a top hat he is. Same as Quicksilver. Two of my favorite outright bastards. Speaking of Quicksilver, I remember after one of his most downward spirals in the characters history was happening around the same time as a Skrull Invasion was wrapping up, and Quicksilver wanting to turn his life around literally went to the Avengers to rejoin and lied to them that he had been replaced by a Skrull for a while so he could just get a fresh start.
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Apr 28, 2024 04:33
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Namor is basically the jock version of Doom
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Apr 28, 2024 06:48
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