BERSERK: Yours is a black path through the night.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > BERSERK: Yours is a black path through the night.

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

temple posted:

Outside of the whole casca thing, guts and griffith are equal in "badness". Its just we see the story from guts pov so we sympathize when he kills children or assaults women. I think the story is about avoiding moral judgement and the potential for good/bad in everyone. Guts's whole narrative is currently about overcoming his inner demon. The only difference between guts and griffith is guts never had any hope to manipulate.

Besides the whole minor "sacrificing hundreds of your closest people to gruesome hell murder and drinking their blood to become a dark deity whose first act is raping the woman you love just to get back at the guy you hate in what should have been both of their final hours" incident, Griffith and Guts are basically the same because Griffith murders women and children while casting the world into a dimension of evil and Guts also murders women and children while trying to prevent the world from being overcome by evil monsters from hell.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Feb 11, 2021

# ¿ Feb 11, 2021 15:25

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 23:48

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Which is very morally ambiguous! Would you MURDER A BABY if the baby is also a horrendous rape demon with kill count in the hundreds? I dunno, makes you think.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2021 15:47

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

temple posted:

A lot of people forget that Farnese was possessed by a demon and Guts spared her. Her curse was lifted the next morning. Guts has killed people in the same situation, particularly a kid that he could have avoid getting cursed in the first place. Guts has killed as many people as Griffith. Guts's leaving the band led to Griffith's capture and the band's routing. If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after. People wank over the black swordsman arc but the whole arc was about his guilt and retribution/redemption was about him not being selfish anymore. Griffith never got an arc like that. I don't think Miura hates Griffith as much as fans do and he based the character on one of his personal friends.

Man you're broke brained as gently caress

temple posted:

Don't be shocked if Griffith gets a redemptive narrative.

Even an ending where Griffith realizes his flaws as a ~~human being~~ demonic hell god, and saves the world, maybe even taking down the God Hand and other villains along the way, would leave all characters in the Berserk world in a state of "Thank god the bad man and his bad world is gone and no longer murdering almost all of humanity", as opposed to "Wow thank you Griffith you are such a good person now, you really came around and did us a solid" except for the people he has deceitfully led to believe that he is the divine savior of humanity in a time of darkness.

quote:

It's also pretty clear that by creating a utopia in Falconia and then unleashing hell on the rest of Earth, Griffith and the God Hand are trying to gather all of humanity together in one place, presumably for an even bigger sacrifice.

Whoa, I like where this is going! What if Griffith ends up being a pawn used by the God Hand for some ulterior motive, and/or someone ends up sacrificing Griffith with a behelith somehow? Or just the final arc being a Falconia sacrifice is also metal as hell.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Feb 12, 2021

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 00:52

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Man this post is so bad that it deserves a detailed takedown. Every single line here is just so wrong it blows the mind and the retinas

quote:

A lot of people forget that Farnese was possessed by a demon and Guts spared her. Her curse was lifted the next morning.

So Guts sees something unusual in this demonic possession that warrants sparing this particular demon, and it turns out to be the right choice. Are you sa... a... are you saying this somehow makes Guts a bad character? Either kill all demons on sight or you're just as bad as they are? Like, how do you even see any path of logic into twisting this as bad or even morally ambiguous in any way.

quote:

Guts has killed people in the same situation, particularly a kid that he could have avoid getting cursed in the first place.

The difference between Guts and Griffith is intent. Guts aims to kill bad demons because they kill good humans. Griffith intends to kill good humans and summon bad demons because he wants to be the centre of attention of everyone in the world. Guts doesn't always get the best outcome or make the perfect choice, but as far as intent goes, it's like comparing Hitler with Wolfenstein guy. Is Wolfenstein Guy a bad person because he kills nazis? Are his feelings of revenge towards Hitler justified? Does wanting to end the holocaust and prevent the Nazis from taking over the world justify all this nazi killing? Was Nazi murder #1882 really strictly necessary? What about that Nazi he killed over there, maybe he could have become a good person tomorrow? Really makes you think.

quote:

Guts has killed as many people as Griffith.

Sure, i'll give you that we do not have an exact kill count. Sure, i'll give you that Guts has killed people, not only demon infested people during the literal apocalypse, but also regular people-people during times of war. Sometimes he kills hundreds of people in the same battle! But, just on the surface of it, I'll need some pretty hard facts to be convinced that one sword swinging guy's kill count can match the kill count that directly and indirectly results from causing The End Times and forcing the entirety of humanity into a battle for their lives against twisted overpowered hell beasts.

quote:

Guts's leaving the band led to Griffith's capture and the band's routing. If Guts had stayed it would have been happily ever after.

Yes, Guts is a monster because he can't predict the future. He really should have considered the possibility of the ultimate betrayal from Griffith causing an (unavoidably fated) Eclipse that consumes all his friends from whose blood a Dark Lord shall rise, before he decided to leave the Band of the Hawk.

quote:

People wank over the black swordsman arc but the whole arc was about his guilt and retribution/redemption was about him not being selfish anymore.

Being consumed by hatred and vengeance after the Eclipse is being selfish. Okay. In some way, it is selfish to kill all those demons! Therefore, Guts is just as bad as Griahahaha i'm sorry I can't do this anymore. Are you arguing that:
- being angry about demons killing your friends and deciding to kill demons for revenge
is in any way remotely comparable to
- sacrificing your entire clan of devoted followers to The Mouths Of Hell to turn yourself into winged blood-leather satan?

There are morally justifiable and morally unjustifiable forms of and reasons for selfishness. Here we have a person sacrificing everyone who's ever followed him to gruesome death so he can become a God King of his fantasy toy kingdom, and on the other hand a survivor of mass murder who is trying to parse his emotions after seeing all his loved ones eaten by hell beasts and his right eye's last sight being his past leader rewarding Guts saving him from a torture dungeon and fighting to give him a future again by raping his loved one to death with clawed tentacles as hell beasts gnaw on his limbs.

quote:

Griffith never got an arc like that.

Yes because in case the moral difference between Guts and Griffith wasn't crystal loving clear, what this manga really needed was an additional Griffith character-development arc. Griffith never got an arc like that for two reasons. One, because his actions concluding the highly Griffith-focused Golden Age arc tells you all you need to know about the character. Two, because such an arc involves overcoming your emotions and desires to find the ability to consider others more, and Griffith just has not done that yet.

quote:

I don't think Miura hates Griffith as much as fans do and he based the character on one of his personal friends.

A... are we reading the same manga? Because, in the manga I read, there was a full page spread of Griffith's selfish, uncaring eyes, and his aristocratic, holier-than-thou mouth, uttering the words "I Sacrifice", directly leading to the unbelievable demonic massacre of literally every single beloved character up to that point in the entire manga, and emotionally and physically crippling the remaining two. Does Miura hate this character as much as *pulls random person out of the crowd* this guy?? Or *pulls another person from the crowd* this guy here?? Who can say?? But, we can very, very confidently say, that Miura does not in any way consider Griffith a good person, or his actions justifiable. The friend he (physically) modeled Griffith on by the way, was chosen because he had some traits but also some flaws that matched Griffith.

On that note. Miura goes to great lengths to make Griffiths actions logical conclusions of his experiences and learnings. In some ways, his evil sacrifice is the end point of things the characters around him has told him, actions that he had taken and then has had validated by others, experiences he has had of support in his selfish quest. Then, a year of torture ripping all his dreams away, and finally a chance to win them back. As the evil ghastly floating face from the loving Murder And Hell Dimension told him - in the middle of a cataclysmic event summoned by the wrathful hellscream of an ancient grotesque artifact, containing red skies lined with bleeding faces and all the demons of the world ready to feast on the flesh of his followers - isn't this in some way what the Band of the Hawk would have wanted? Didn't they fight with you for this, and tell you repeatedly to do this?

Sure! But Miura also goes to great lengths to show that this is not a reasonable logical action that follows from the others. Miura makes a very clear connection not with logic or morality, but instead, with fate. The events that happened to Griffith, and the person that Griffith is, conjoined to make him take this decision willingly. But it was not because it was the right thing to do, or a sane logical thing to do. Instead, it was because this was an event planned by a dark force for hundreds of years, a perfectly manufactured moment in time crafted to convince the exact level of selfish and evil person to do the unbelievable. Griffith is not a logical person, and he is not doing what's right. Rather, he is the perfectly molded selfish evil entity supplied with the exact necessary ingredient to commit the most evil act imaginable.

quote:

Don't be shocked if Griffith gets a redemptive narrative.

Covered this in an earlier post. But just to recap: Griffith can, at best, commit some good acts later, but even the ultimate good act can at best make him a character who we are glad is gone and no longer causing evil. He can never, in anyone's eyes except those he lied to and deceived, make his past actions justifiable. If I hit you, and then I say Sorry and take you to the hospital, does that make me not a violent criminal? Spoiler alert: I would have jail time coming. Because no, it does not, it makes me a violent criminal who shows remorse for his evil act but that does not erase it.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Feb 12, 2021

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 02:25

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Literally drunk right now as a direct result of how dumb that post was. What in the goddamn indeed

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 03:09

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

My god dude

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 03:27

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

I mean the central point of this argument is "Are Guts and Griffith morally equivalient in some ways" and, sure, while the manga plays with this theme a lot during the Golden Age and while none of them could predict future events, I think that the central event that conclusively determines the answer to this question is, when the choice finally through cosmic intervention does arise of 'How about sacrificing all these people and drinking their blood to become God King' is presented, Guts is like 'No Griffith don't do it', and Griffith is like 'Yes, let's do it'. (Would Guts have reacted differently if he was in Griffith's shoes? No, because Guts' reaction to his fellows dying is anger and sadness, while Griffith's reaction is to thank them for their blood. Just to further clarify: Guts is not most angry at the prospect of him dying, but at the prospect of everyone else dying. That is where the difference is!)

The funny thing about that is it exposes the very core moral difference between the two characters and puts all their past actions in different lights. It shows that while Guts and Griffith both did some similar things, Guts ultimately did it out of some level of care for others, while Griffith ultimately merely used others for entirely selfish reasons. Like I can't believe I have to write this out in plain text, but sure, let's play along with the dumbest internet discussion presented so far in the year 2021.

Like I agree with you that this manga is fascinating and Miura has a masterful grip on the human condition, and this manga has a lot of shades of gray, I'll even agree with you that its a massive disservice to Miura's writing to boil most of the manga down to good versus evil, but not in this spot!!!! not here!!! no!!! this is not where the ambiguity is!!!! this is where the clarity is!!!!!!! what the gently caress are you doing my dude!!!!! oh my god!!!

Bisse fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Feb 12, 2021

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 03:39

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Agreed, that's a very sensible post to be honest, and yes, Guts isn't always a Good Person. He has his bad moments. But is he a better person than Griffith? Yes. Are his bad moments as bad as Griffith's bad moments? No. Are his motivations more morally justifiable than Griffith's motivations? Yes. We can call Guts conflicted and morally turbulent, or ambiguous. We can do the same for Griffith. That does not make them anywhere near morally equivalent. They're not even the same galaxy of morality. We're talking #878787 vs #010101 on the grey scale.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Feb 12, 2021

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 04:02

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

temple posted:

The idea that guts is some caring person is pure revisionism.

Would kill soldiers in war:
Griffith: Yes
Guts: Yes

Would let innocents get harmed in pursuit of his goals:
Griffith: Yes
Guts: Yes

Gets lost in emotions and commits bad acts:
Griffith: Yes
Guts: Yes

Would sacrifice all his loved ones to become God King:
Griffith: Yes
Guts: No

Would throw hell upon earth:
Griffith: Yes
Guts: No

Cares more about being the center of attention than anything else in the world:
Griffith: Yes
Guts: No

Using the argument that neither are saints therefore they must both be equal is extremely far up the own arse after just pointing out that this is a nuanced manga that deals with greyscales. In such a manga you can have an anti-hero who is, in fact, a better person than the person who causes the apocalypse. Characters can commit similar acts but they can be morally different because one is dealing with trauma caused by the other. Characters can commit similar acts but they can be morally different because their ulterior motivations are completely different. No amount of listing bad things that Guts did can put him anywhere near Griffith on the morality scale because of the level of no-good very-very-bad things that Griffith did. You're saying Guts d..dragged a woman in chains over snow because he didn't know a better way of how to handle their trauma and out of a misplaced sense of care? You're s-s-saying he tried to kill a child because it looked demonic? Someone drew a bad painting of him?? Why yes, that's almost, almost, on the same level as condemning all of earth so you can play fairy king with toy knights. You'd have to be broke brained to see Griffith and Guts as similar after reading through the Eclipse and even more broke brained to persist in this interpretation after reading through the world being consumed by darkness.

I feel like you're attached to your extremely bad read of the morality of these two characters and looking for flaws in one to try to match him up towards the other. Your read is wrong and your arguments are inhuman and shows a wild, deep misunderstanding of morality. I'm sorry! There is moral ambiguity in this manga, but not here, not where you are looking for it.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Feb 12, 2021

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 04:15

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Some sort of sacrifice or tragedy of Falconia seems like a reasonable last arc. If Griffith is betrayed by the God Hand and turns on them, it could be a reasonable way to have Guts and co stand some sort of a chance against them in a battle. It's the closest thing Griffith could ever come to a redemption arc.

I'm wondering, if nothing like this happens, and the world isn't "saved", what would a Berserk ending be like? Guts and Caska learning to live in the world they've got and putting their traumas behind them? Perhaps living on as a force for good in a world of evil. Or just... living on and walking into the sunset. Something like this but with Guts dying to secure a somewhat liveable future for Caska wouldn't surprise me as well. It seems like something this manga could do for an ending, and of course it would be tragic in many ways which is fine, but I'm having trouble seeing how it could be a satisfying ending.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Feb 14, 2021

# ¿ Feb 14, 2021 23:33

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Hmm. I guess I agree that eliminating the God Hand or even the Idea of Evil seems like something that belongs in Naruto rather than Berserk. I guess more concretely what i'm looking for is that the world is currently overrun by evil and if that's not undone before the ending, then I would consider it a tragic ending even if Guts/Caska's character arcs resolve happily.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2021 10:41

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Could Guts pull off a significantly baller feat enough that he makes humanity believe less in evil, or more in goodness, thus limiting the Idea of Evil's influence for the foreseeable future and perhaps creating a counterforce that can grow strong enough to hold it back?

# ¿ Feb 15, 2021 21:45

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

LordMune posted:

I sincerely doubt this is where the story will go, but I have long toyed with the idea that Griffith is inadvertently undermining the Idea of Evil and its hold over humanity. The population is decimated, but in Falconia they hunker down behind high walls as Griffith's proto-fascism proves an enviable alternative to past monarchies. He keeps the apostles on a short leash. Not even his monster-extermination operations hold the terror of military campaigns of old, as he literally brings the souls of the departed back to their loved ones. Might the hope and promise of Falconia prove to be a sufficient barrier against the re-assertion of the despair that the Idea of Evil embodies? Probably not.

This isn't a bad theory, but I think it's undermined by firstly, Griffith having his dream of a kingdom from long before he became a God Hand, so if this is the case it's something he'd have to have come up with after the fact of Falconia's creation by pure happenstance of situation.

Secondly, Griffith's first act once he gained the power of a god by sacrificing everyone who loved him, was to attempt to rape mutilate and murder his two closest. Presumably Griffith remain intact as a person after becoming a god, so the only thing stopping him from doing something like this before was having the power to do it and get away with it.

So I'm not saying that Griffith doesn't gives the slightest gently caress about anyone but himself, but he is Not A Good Person and I don't see him taking any action that would sacrifice his dream, and undoing the merge of the two worlds would basically destroy Falconia's purpose.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2021 21:52

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Evil gods are perhaps not evil because they don't consider themselves evil?

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 20:30

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

I would say your argument falls apart because Griffith had the choice of saying 'No, I do not sacrifice'.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 20:37

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

quote:

Did he actually have a choice as Guts tries to tell him

Yes. The first loving arc of the drat manga has a villain who uses the behelith, and then chooses not to sacrifice. He is not branded so he is as much bound by fate as Griffith.

The Notorious ZSB posted:

Things simply seem to be for the God Hand, they don't really view any of the actions we see through that human moral lens.

This is essentially the definition of evil.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Feb 16, 2021

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 21:17

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Was Hitler evil or did he just view things through a different moral lens than me?

Was Sauron evil or can he be forgiven because as a god he did not choose to consider the suffering of man?

Also sure, let's pick one of the world's most prominent religions, hmmm let's pick, Christianity, which has, let's see: God, Jesus, and Satan: The Literal Embodiment Of Evil, so yeah.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Feb 16, 2021

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 21:40

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Ah yes and that's why the average human looks at today's Satan, and thinks "Evil? Hmm. This is debatable. What standard should I hold him to?"

Like i'm not sure what you're arguing here? That humans are not allowed to consider gods evil if they themselves don't consider themselves evil? That's a dumb and wrong argument, but moreso it is irrelevant because the God Hand consider themselves evil! If literally ending their sentences in manical evil laughters, dressing like cenobites and decorating their home with bleeding faces wasn't enough of a clue, they also literally follow a deity that calls itself 'The Idea Of Evil'!

Humans: The God Hand is evil.
God Hand: We are evil.
The Notorious ZSB: Hmm this is debatable. Do they share our moral lens?

Bisse fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 16, 2021

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 21:54

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

The Notorious ZSB posted:

I'm not saying that Griffith had no choice

quote:

If he truly was fated then he never had a choice in the first place.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 21:55

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Jesus loving christ

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 22:09

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

GorfZaplen posted:

It could be worse

What the gently caress is this poo poo

# ¿ Mar 2, 2021 17:26

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

The Notorious ZSB posted:

It wasn't the same after the first big hiatus anyway. No loss, unlike never seeing the end of this would be.

Yeah HxH had a pretty decent wrap up of all the major plotlines at the top of the world tree, everything afterwards is just delicious dessert in my eyes.

quote:

Quwrof Wrlccywrlir

My god that sounds like trying to say Chrollo Lucifer while vomiting.

ChrUUUUHHWRF :barf:

WHRUUUUWRIURRWL

# ¿ Mar 3, 2021 09:55

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Re-read this manga and uh, it never really struck me this strongly before for some reason (I think because the 90's anime handles it better and I never really read the manga bits before the Eclipse) but boy does Casca get treated super problematically???

She is naked for basically no reason during the Wyald fight, the poo poo during the Eclipse is super central to the story but also super bad from a feminist point of view (Woman gets naked (again) and raped by Male A (who recently tried and failed to do that but it was excused including by the woman by "How can I be so selfish, I should have thought about him more") just to get revenge on Male B). And then handles the horrible events of the eclipse by becoming a braindead toddler while the guy handles the same events by becoming a strong moody mysterious badass.

Like the rest of the manga isn't that bad about it from what I can tell, sure there is nudity but whatever, and yes there are really well-written story points made in the Eclipse where the events there basically need to happen... but everything related to Caska after and shortly before the eclipse taken as a whole is like... really problematic. Like if it was just the eclipse it would be bad but less bad, but everything as a whole seems badly bad. Modern day treatment of Caska seems to be A Lot Better, thankfully.

Is it just me?

Bisse fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 8, 2021

# ¿ Apr 8, 2021 17:28

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

lezard_valeth posted:

I agree on this and I particularly really liked the 2nd movie. The only issue I had with the 3rd movie is that either the 3D models or the color palette they chose made it look too pretty, I guess? Like I think that the rough artstyle of the 97' anime really worked in it's favour for the depiction of the Eclipse.

Yeah the 3rd movie is gorgeous, but hard agree on the art style of the eclipse not quite nailing it. The faded blue color grading of the eclipse in the movie aims for a more gloomy, eerie look, than the outright hellish madness and chaos of the bright blood-red that the 97 anime uses. The movie also gives the eclipse a sense of clear and defined geometry/space, with its overview shot of the sharp 3d scene. Whereas both the manga and the 97 anime has it twisting and bending dreamily between shots, most notably with the sky of screaming faces being intentionally all over the place between shots, making sense of direction and spatial awareness much harder to understand, which really works in the scene's favour.

# ¿ May 21, 2021 23:26

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

atelier morgan posted:

Defeating griffith and fixing the world coming down to the next generation (schierke and rickert et al) is what makes the most sense to me, moreso than guts being the one to do it personally

I can't see Guts being able to defeat Griffith or any of the God Hand, the difference in power is just too vast. What's interesting is we saw in Skullies flashback that most of the God Hand have been replaced, which corks open a whole lot of interesting questions for the ending, is it possible to kill them? Or do one of them get replaced every 200 years considering that's how often the eclipse happens?

What's frustrating about the Berserk ending possibilities is that it just doesn't seem possible to defeat the series villains, the God Hand are gods and have Akira levels of power, and even if they were defeated there is the metaphysical Idea of Evil entity there to guarantee whatever you achieve will only be short term. So why bother defeating them in the first place? It seems like the best Guts could hope to achieve by sword swinging is defeat the earthly version of Griffith, but then there is still Femto. The only viable goal would be undoing the demon invasion of earth.

So it seems much more reasonable for the ending to be about personal goals for the characters, and acceptance of the way things are while still struggling to improve them.

My personal ending theory is what someone mentioned earlier, that Guts will cause Griffith's downfall by simply moving on with his life - just like when he defeated him in sword battle when he left the Band of the Hawk. The only thing that ever distracted Griffith from his dream was Guts, and I think that even as a god who has achieved all his dreams, Griffith's narcissism won't be able to handle Guts ceasing to care about him, and he'll do exactly what he did last time - lash out, take stupid decisions, destroy his dream over a personal vendetta. The pivotal scene that sets this up is the battle on the Hill of Swords after the Tower of Conviction arc, where Griffith seems to take great pleasure in Guts' rage, and dropping in just to say hi and trying to prove the point that he doesn't care about Guts anymore. Guts growing as a person and Griffith still being stuck playing with toy knights is what will constitute victory.

I don't see Griffith doing another sacrifice to grow in power because it doesn't make sense, he is already a god. However, the slug count did call on the God Hand when at death's door to save his life, so perhaps that's a reasonable final climax - Griffith is wounded, summons the god hand and tries to sacrifice Falconia to save his own skin.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 20:24 on May 22, 2021

# ¿ May 22, 2021 20:19

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

TheLoneStar posted:

Really makes me wonder how things would be if this had been where the manga started. Not as a flashback, but just the very start. That dramatic irony would be gone, but I wonder how much more of a punch Griffith's betrayal would've been if no one knew it was coming?

The anime was like this (it started with parts of the black swordsman arc, but did not contain the slug count and first griffith encounter), and as someone who watched that first with no idea what this series was about, it was very confusing. The element of foreboding isn't there in the same way because you don't know what the behelith does, and you don't know that Griffith is going to do something to become a demon god. The only thing you know is Guts is going to be alone and angry. So the Golden Age arc reads a lot more like Guts' story as opposed to the story of how Guts came to hate Griffith, you're just kind of following along as Guts gets more and more badass, then the Eclipse just comes out literally loving nowhere and is extremely, viscerally confusing.

It also does not contain the Skull Knight save so it leaves you flabbergasted at the end, it cuts with Guts losing his eye as his vision is covered with blood and last sight being Griffith raping caska, and then credit roll! The end! To add insult to injury, most anime seasons are 26 episodes long, but this anime ends at episode 25, so my first instinct was did I miss an episode?? Nope! That's the end! The only way the anime makes sense, as other mentioned, is if you then go back and watch the first episode, which connects all the dots and is pretty beautiful. But I had a friend who did not, he just ended up confused and moved on.

# ¿ May 24, 2021 22:53

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

PhantomOfTheCopier posted:

On the one hand Griffith never "lost his mind" or went insane. He was the same controlling ab/user the entire time. Going to Charlotte was tactically accurate: He was using her because the king would have to acquiesce if there was a child. It was a direct power play.

Tactically accurate for sure, but extremely badly executed. A Griffith in his right mind would have waited patiently for a better moment. But this is Griffith screwing things up because of how badly his loss against Guts got to him. Griffith would never display any emotion that doesn't serve his purpose, so you'll never see anger or such on his face, the best way to spot that it gets to him is that he immediately takes an at that point unnecessary action that ruins him.

As for him not losing his mind - hard agree - he was always a narcissistic psychopathic murderous evil bastard with no room in his life for compassion.

quote:

I think the eclipse always would have happened, even if Griffith didn't go to the princess and then to the jail. Causality and such, the Godhand would have gotten him there some other way.

The god hand do not mention fate, but rather the 'threads of causality' and they are heavily alluding to some sort of ability to influence them but does not sound like they can directly influence fate. So if something were to disrupt the threads of causality - a butterfly flapping its wings in the wrong place, or someone outside causality such as the Skull Knight - things could have turned out differently. I think it is fair to say that the eclipse was bound to happen - but perhaps it could have happened with different people, with someone else than Griffith or the band of the hawks involved, if some event would have played out differently.

I think if the eclipse didn't happen, Guts and Caska would have just disappeared into the sunset and lived a troubled but merry life somewhere.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 23:33 on May 24, 2021

# ¿ May 24, 2021 23:22

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Quiz: Which apostle are you?

# ¿ May 27, 2021 14:09

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Also in the lost chapter Griffith is brought before the Idea of Evil and told to choose his desired form, the form that he needs to achieve his goals. So that guy was like, "To achieve my dreams, I want to be snail man."

# ¿ May 27, 2021 20:22

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Archer666 posted:

I I always felt like when Griffith became Femto, for all intents and purposes he died.

The missing chapter makes it clear that Femto is still very much Griffith the Human, the same person, in an new form of his choosing.

As for why the missing chapter was cut, IIRC Miura cut it after publishing because he felt it was too early in the story to introduce the Idea of Evil. It was a good call, the story is better with that bit still being a mystery, and as a side effect the Eclipse is also busy as gently caress already and is better off with one less mindblowing revelation.

quote:

I'm curious as to what Griffith thinks he's doing right now. Like he's created, in a manner of speaking, an empty map to paint with his fancy empire, with it's pseudo-utopian cooperative society and early modern infrastructure+bureaucracy, and he's even trying to get universal compulsory education going. But does he just envision this continuing... indefinitely? Like I doubt he ages, and I also doubt he is, at least in his own mind, setting up a second round of sacrifices. Does he just think he'll be building an ever advancing utopian society forever? What about the other four, with their rat swarm, super orgy, garden of earthly delights, and Being A Brain? He's not cooperating with them anymore probably, are they all just mutually ignoring each other? Does any of this even DO anything for him or is he just going through the motions since he's pot-committed?

Have you ever had a dream you reached and then felt... a lot less than you thought you would, and just kind of went to bed content and woke up the next day and then life just moved on like normal? Like how most celebrities say that reaching the fame they sought was not the answer to happiness?

Griffith had a goal, to be king of his dream castle, but did not really seem to have a plan after that. It feels like he's just living his dream but is going to become more and more aware of how the reality will not be like the dream. We're kind of seeing this already with how Griffith sits as the king in important meetings as his assistant bring up matters within his kingdom and he doesn't seem super interested, throwing out 'yes give everyone all the good things' answers and then riding out with his toy army to win battles and slay evil and feel important.

I think what's going to happen with Falconia is Griffith will become increasingly frustrated or disappointed with the practicalities of running a huge kingdom, citizens will start to grow less happy with the state of things over time which Narcissiffith just can not tolerate, and he will lash out in some way which will ultimately bring about maybe his and definitely Falconia's downfall.

# ¿ May 28, 2021 21:23

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

PhantomOfTheCopier posted:

(Which makes me think of another weird angle, that Griffith ab/used himself for the dream, so is there an outcome where Femto battles against the Godhand to save Casca/Guts? Because he realizes he does care.)

Uuuuummm I think that's a possible outcome actually, it would be a possibility to follow from Griffith realizing that achieving his dream did not give him the happiness he thought it would. It would not make him less of a genocidal ultranarc fantasy-hitler, and is not redemption in any way shape or form, but it would be something he would do if his heart switches, from achieving his ambition, to realizing true happiness comes from the people important to you.

EDIT: Okay the more I think about this the more it feels like the most coherent way for Berserk to end. Instead of Guts dying, we get Griffith dying to protect that which he cares for the most, which in the end turns out to be Guts and Caska.

# ¿ May 28, 2021 22:46

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

You're in luck, my uncle works at Berserk, i'll pass on the message!

# ¿ Jun 3, 2021 01:09

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

If I were in Miura's shoes, I would have wanted someone to finish my life's work.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2021 19:42

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Pindakaas posted:

I vote let the assistants continue it but let/'s work towards a finish this time.

Well yes in theory but I wouldn't want to be the assistant tasked with doing this.

"Hey bisse can you continue and finish the late Miura's work, please try to mimic his art and writing style when continuing the manga, also a satisfying ending please."
"Uuuuh we need to talk"

# ¿ Sep 8, 2021 09:34

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

mind the walrus posted:

I mean, I'm not too proud to admit that all I want is to see Griffith eat poo poo in an "official" capacity and it feels like it would be hard to gently caress that up. Berserk was always about baroque detail, not bucking convention.

I want to see that too but keep coming back to like, any way I can imagine Guts winning and Griffith eating poo poo just doesn't feel like Miura's writing style. But wow yes a good ol' Bleach-style diagonal-cut-from-behind full page spread would be something!

Bisse fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Sep 8, 2021

# ¿ Sep 8, 2021 09:36

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

This being the ending would be a bigger gently caress You than all the NGE endings combined.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2021 18:56

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

christmas boots posted:

Ok everyone who's your favorite character and why is it Schnoz?

Griffith because he did nothing wrong.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 22:19

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Lucasar posted:

It also puts him in a position not dissimilar to Griffith pre-eclipse: faced with a choice between a fragile, compromised human life or become an avenging demi-god who can force his dreams to be real.

Guts has started to realize he has things to lose though, something Griffith never really did. A good plot thread for the last arcs would probably be Guts trying to find a way to deal with whatever the conflict of the arc is, without relying on the armor for fear of losing what little he has left.

It's been shown that the armor drains him, but it hasn't been shown yet that the damage can't be healed.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2021 00:20

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

bitmap posted:

man he didnt even fight one of the godhand. not even that fat little octopus bitch.

The Godhand always felt like non-fightable entities. But it feels a bit more realistic now that they have started becoming a part of the real world.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2021 15:08

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 23:48

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

mind the walrus posted:

This was clearly the part the Berserker armor is meant to fix

Yeah I just don't think Berserk is the story where the main character finds a cool power up and defeats the bad guys. I find it much more likely the story is going in a direction where Guts will have to choose between taking revenge and accomplishing nothing, or saving those he care about. My money's on the real power up being Guts' new friends, and things will somehow be resolved through the power of Teamwork and Schierke magic while letting go of the armor to not lose yourself.

Wear Armor, Swing Sword, Get Grey Hair would need to be handled extremely well to not feel like all of Guts' character development went full circle back to the Black Swordsman arc.

Miura has written the story such a way that there is literally no obvious way for it to end, which is impressive. The way things are set up now, all possible outcomes are tradeoffs between various shades of black and grey, and a traditional happy save-the-world ending doesn't seem to exist.

Bisse fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Sep 15, 2021

# ¿ Sep 15, 2021 16:52

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > BERSERK: Yours is a black path through the night.

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