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Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

I'm sorry I wont be convinced space is antisemitic until a non-Jewish upper middle class media columnist tells me it is.

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Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Weren't we being told there was nothing to see in the trade documents because they'd been published publicly months ago? How can they simultaneously publicly available documents and also Russian election interference?

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

I turned the British Empire into a Communist super state in Vicky so I think that qualifies it as good.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

I think the Queen is probably as poo poo as the rest of her family.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

OwlFancier posted:

I still can't get over boris sending his mate and his dad to tell the journalists to stop being mean to him.

Like wouldn't you just be mortified to have your loving dad turn up at your job???

The Great British Public says:

Just more of his legendary bants. I think hes completely incompetent but Im definitely voting for him because what a character eh. You can't trust a word he says but also he tells it like it is. Hes committed so many infidelities he doesnt even know how many kids he has and hes obviously being bribed by god knows who but you've got to laugh right? Not like that Corbyn fella, just dont like him.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Who were the alternatives to Swinson for Lib Dem leadership? Was she the absolute best options? Shes like a less charismatic Liz Kendall.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

painted into a coroner posted:

I liked my time in Canada and want to move back but yeah a chunk of the population are racist as hell. Had one person say to my face about how the country was "full" and there shouldn't be any more immigration when I said i was over on a visa. I'm not sure if she was actually angry at me or considered me "one of the good ones" because I was white. She was also in her early 20s, so it wasn't some gammon saying this either!

Fukkin lol at the idea of Canada being full. Outside of a few major cities its thousands of miles filled with nothing.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Canada just elected a guy as PM who was caught doing blackface multiple times and he wasn't even the second most racist candidate. "Harmless, tolerant Canada" is definitely a deliberate PR line.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

The Perfect Element posted:

Hello, great UKMT hive mind. I was having an argument with a friend of mind about labour antisemitism ; she thinks it's very real and very serious, I think it's overblown and whatever there is has been massively weaponised.

She has linked me to this article : https://medium.com/@sararoseofficial/everything-i-never-wanted-to-have-to-know-about-labour-and-antisemitism-649b5bc1e576

And now I feel completely conflicted. My position, on reading this, is that I will still vote Labour, but I am now massively reconsidering my former position on the anti semitism issue.

Is there anything to properly contradict the arguments in the article?

Apologies if this has been discussed before. The thread moves to fast!

I read it. Its pretty much entirely the same things that have been discussed ad nauseum (the mural, the wreath, Press TV). What stood out to me was the lengthy section on what she labels 'token Jews'. She says "As with any community, there will be legitimate disagreement and dissent on the topic of what is and isn’t discrimination — and it is always important not to dismiss minority voices". Then she proceeds to immediately dismiss the voices of anyone who disagrees with her as a token jew, including the actual Holocaust survivor. It reads to me like someone who has emotionally invested herself into a narrative and everything exists to serve that narrative.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Braggart posted:

https://twitter.com/Nimble_Pumpkin/status/1204073264198438925


Pumpkin Pissflaps is doggedly defending their point that an increase in numbers of foodbanks is not evidence of an increase in need for foodbanks, and they never said that the need for foodbanks hasn't gotten worse under the Tories, but you cannot prove it because all this proves is that charity has increased in supply. So perhaps people become kinder under a Tory government :smug:


I would argue that an increase in poo poo in their pants is not evidence of a need to poo poo their pants, but only of a desire to do so. poo poo is free, therefore their pants have an infinite demand, and they have an infinite supply QED debate me nerds :shrek:

Its the old "free supply creates infinite demand" argument. Food banks offer free food, people like free food even if they dont need it, therefore the demand for foodbanks is completely unrelated to the need for food (in other words its all a bunch of scam artists trying to score a free lunch). This argument of course completely ignores everything about how foodbanks work in particular and how human beings work in general but it doesnt stop gammons making it.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

team overhead smash posted:

I wish there was a better system for running boards in the rain then having a plastic flimsy overlaying the first page.

Clipboards? When I was an archaeologist doing paperwork in the rain was usually murder but occasionally we'd got a hold of these clipboards with a really heavy duty plastic cover on springs and a hinge. So the whole cover would lift up like a lid giving plenty of room to write in while still protecting the paper. They were magic.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Grondoth posted:

So was there a good reason Corbyn was so unpopular? Everything I saw of him made him look like a decent, respectable guy. When I'd watch those legislating sections, most people and the Tories in particular seemed like hooting idiotic children, but he seemed pretty okay.

But apparently the brits hated him. Was it just the media? Do I fundamentally not understand the british character?

People everywhere love angry authoritarian strongmen types who "tell it like it is" (blatantly lie). Its not a uniquely British trait.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Was feeling pretty poo poo about this but gently caress it. Never let the bastards grind you down. I'm going to be even more of a bolshy oval office even if it's just to spite them.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Tories get 56% of the seats on 43% of the vote.
Over 50% of the votes went to parties supporting a 2nd referendum but 'get Brexit done' will be the take away from the election.

What a garbage system.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

I think it's very important to remember that, while a completely understandable thing to think in this moment, variations on "gently caress this country it's full of fash" is a bad belief to have. Because it's what the fash want you to think. They want everyone to think they are the majority, that's how they get their power. But the numbers dont support that. There are certainly far too loving many of them but its not a majority. Just a lovely electoral system.

So dont concede that mental space to them. Fight it in yourself and others. Remember there are, quite literally, 10 million people who want what you want. That wasn't enough this time but it ain't nothing either.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

HorseLord posted:

This election proves, once again, electoralism doesn't work.

What the gently caress kind of strategy is it? The labour party is disconnected from, uninvolved in people's lives, it has no mass base. It does nothing except wait until an election rolls around and then promises that it'll fix everything if you please vote for it. That's an absurd strategy that relies entirely on the mercy of the press, which is controlled by the bourgeoisie.

Every hour you spent doorknocking in a gammon area could've been spent setting up a food bank with a big "LABOUR PARTY COMMUNITY SURVIVAL CENTRE" sign over the front door. That would build you a base from actual deeds rather than hoping you can build one from promises. And if you still didn't win, you'd still have made a measurable improvement in the lives of the working class, which is supposed to be what the party is for.

The rare horselord post I agree with. If Labour are locked out of making a positive difference in peoples lives via legislation then mobilise the organisation to make a difference in peoples lives in small but concrete ways.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

ronya posted:

the problem with the party as a substitute for organized state welfare in first-world countries is straightforward to illustrate: last year the Labour party raised about £45m and spent about £45m. This is a national, annual figure. These are ongoing operational costs, not £45m of free cash flow.

for comparison, the budget for Camden council (just Camden council) was about £230m, of which about £200m is social spending. This does not include centrally-run social care spending like the NHS, it's just the stuff run by local councils.

these numbers are not even close, the magnitudes are not even close. You cannot outdo income taxes and welfare states with voluntarist party organization. Even putting aside issues of universal access and procedural consistency - things civil services excel at, rather than ad-hoc party organizations, let's not call it clientelism - the magnitudes are just not sanely plausible

the sort of tactics that work for third-world socialists operating in slums and rural farmlands are not applicable for first-world countries with welfare states

I mean this is true but currently Labour only raise money for the purposes of their political operation so its not exactly a counter-argument. It doesnt demonstrate that Labour couldnt raise more money for welfare projects if they specifically set out to do so. But of course its not about replacing the welfare state at all. Its about leveraging Labours biggest asset, a large well organised membership, to improve peoples lives. That would also be something that would keep that membership engaged and energised outside of a major campaign, which is important. Particularly after a dispiriting defeat.

It is of course much easier to say than actually do (Im absolutely certain that if it isnt already illegal for Labour to do it directly the Tories would make it illegal asap). But it is the kind of work that built Labours deep roots in communities in the first place, and clearly those roots need to be rebuilt across the country.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

If Labour policies actually managed to pull the Tories left in terms of public investment that's good.

But its incredible that they can do a complete 180 from "austerity good, national credit card, no money" to "gently caress it let's just spend" and nobody will bat an eyelid while Labour get monstered for suggesting that maybe we shouldn't be burning everything down.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Antinumeric posted:

Lib Dems gained 4.2% vote share. People liked what they are offering, at least more than labour. Considering the flight of votes from Labour to LD/Con

"Actually the party with less than 4 million votes is more popular than the party with more than 10 million" is a take so stupid a take so stupid even the Lib Dems aren't pushing it.

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Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Brit Nationalism seems like a poo poo platform to run on not just morally but also because you will never out flag-wave the Tories. They will always present and be presented as the most proudly Grate Britane party of all even while selling off national assets to anyone who hands them a big enough envelope stuffed with cash.

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