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Pollyanna posted:Force shits upon reason’s back. Power is only achieved via election and therefore electoralism, and power strangles movements in their cribs.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:36
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Horizon Burning posted:Do you have a single fact to back that up? Like, how many failed elections is it going to take? They're so bothered they've won big victories in the US, UK, and Australia - with the latter they themselves thought was 'unwinnable!' The capitalists have enough combined control over the electoral process and the media to ensure that they retain control of the state. This is true in Britain, and it will be more true in Britain - or England, anyway, from the way things are shaping up - in 2024. It remains to be seen what happens in the US later this year but I wouldn't get your hopes up. It is unlikely that electoral politics is going to save us, because capitalists who have at their command wealth and power unequaled in all of human history have seen to it that it can't. It may well be the case that no matter who you run, no matter how finely you craft your electoral strategy, and no matter how much your policy platform will help people, you will lose, because the capitalists want you to lose. And that's it. If capitalists control the game board literally the only options you have are to play their game and continue to lose, or flip the board and come at them directly. Take a look at this graph:  Now also bear in mind that Britain actually has some loving laws that mandate press neutrality during an election. They were ignored with impunity. America has no such laws to even ignore so how do you think that will go? (I do think, that the American press somehow manages to be less poo poo than the British press, but we'll see.) Now you go ahead and tell me not only how, but why the rest of us ought to fight on such uneven ground? Be specific. Why should the left feel obligated to fight these battles, battles which are not just necessary from a social and economic justice standpoint, but indeed from the standpoint of saving human civilization, on ground wholly owned and controlled by the people they're fighting? The people who want to see the entire human race save for themselves in chains and who will irreversibly degrade this planet's ability to sustain life in order to achieve that goal? The people you complain are "LARPing" are actually building up the nerve to engage in open rebellion. They are testing the waters and finding out how many there are who think like them. And as they do that they are, bit by bit, radicalizing other people who in turn do the same. Maybe you should join them instead of armchair quarterbacking the fight for our survival.
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Dec 14, 2019 10:18
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Horizon Burning posted:No, Goon, they're not. If you think the people on this forum are "building up the nerve to engage in open rebellion" (lmao) then you are sadly, sadly deluded.
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Dec 14, 2019 20:09
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Beefeater1980 posted:That’s probably it. Around here, people tend to treat capitalism as a directed conspiracy instead of the organically occurring one that it actually is. I mean, no doubt capitalists collude with one another, but there are too many capitalists for it to be literally just "capitalism is a thing these capitalists are forcing us to do" or something. And I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a leftist that actually thinks that - though, again, you might sometimes get the impression from listening to how they describe the predicament. Maybe this is something we should work on. At any rate, if you think about it this is even worse. If capitalism were a directed conspiracy then you could just depose the conspirators and be done with it. It might even be that capitalism isn't so bad, and you just need to do it right! But this is not the case: the truth is that the social and economic order that both grows from and feeds back in to capitalism, is inherently unjust, and dysfunctional. There will always be haves and have-nots, always an underclass, under capitalism. You can't really fix that. Even if you distribute existing wealth equality to every human being but keep capitalism, the 1% will reassert itself. Obviously it won't be the same people as before, but the capitalist class will reappear, they will control the means of production, they will use that to perpetuate their own existence, to pervert our institutions to their own ends, and we will be right back where we started. This is what capitalism is designed to do and we can only destroy it.
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Dec 15, 2019 10:23
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:You don't see leftist demagogues on TV because 5 corporations run the entire media apparatus, not because leftists are 100% virtuous saints who would never lie, engage in splittism, or indulge their own personal vanities. If you want to put pressure on capitalists from the left, you have to put pressure on the people who serve them: cops, politicians, media, and so on. Make politicians apprehensive about appearing in front of their constituents. Make their job a grind. Heckle reporters and give them poo poo wherever they go. Doxx police officers who brutalize peaceful demonstrators and the like, and put funding pressure on them at the local level. Basically just make these people's lives miserable in every petty little way you can think up, and share what works and what doesn't with other people of like mind. People who wake up in the morning and go to work as enforcers and propagandists for capital do so principally to earn a living, but no one likes doing a job that makes them feel like poo poo all the time. So make them feel like poo poo all the time.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:30
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