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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Tanking can work exquisitely. Which NFL tank has worked out? Browns: not looking great Raiders: to early but so far continued mediocrity Dolphins: just started Colts: Luck died. Confirmed failure
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Dec 25, 2019 02:34
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Colts worked. They went to the playoffs 3 straight years including an AFC Championship game.
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Dec 25, 2019 02:36
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and then Luck died because they tanked. The reason they tanked retired in his prime. That's a failure.
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Dec 25, 2019 02:38
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Ches Neckbeard posted:and then Luck died because they tanked. The reason they tanked retired in his prime. That's a failure. That's a dumb and pretty dishonest argument. Tanking didn't cause his injuries. Failure to successfully address the offensive line caused it, which is entirely independent of the tank. And who knows, maybe Luck was always destined to retire early. Also, imagine Baker Mayfield went to three conference championship in a row, you and every Browns fans in here certainly wouldn't consider that a failure.
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Dec 25, 2019 02:50
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Kalli posted:Colts worked. They went to the playoffs 3 straight years including an AFC Championship game. the AFCS was extreme dogshit when Luck started out so making the playoffs wasnt exactly hard
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Dec 25, 2019 02:52
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Kalli posted:Colts worked. They went to the playoffs 3 straight years including an AFC Championship game. That was a pretty unique situation though, and it's also questionable how much tanking they actually did. That team was hosed without Peyton and they decided to just ride it out for a year to get his replacement rather than trying for a very marginal improvemeny immediately. Not quite the same as these multi-year tank jobs where they ship off every good player.
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Dec 25, 2019 02:53
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Panthers absolutely tanked in 2010 and ended up with Cam.
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Dec 25, 2019 02:59
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:That's a dumb and pretty dishonest argument. Tanking didn't cause his injuries. Failure to successfully address the offensive line caused it, which is entirely independent of the tank. And who knows, maybe Luck was always destined to retire early. The sole reason the Colts tanked was to get Luck, he retired at 30 and they suck again. They drafted a can't miss sure fire franchise QB that should have them set for 15 years or more and got 5ish seasons. The tank failed.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:01
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Rg3 is starting in 2019. Luck is not. Dan Snyder wins again.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:06
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FizFashizzle posted:Panthers absolutely tanked in 2010 and ended up with Cam. They also fired Fox at the end of the year. And the Colts fired Caldwell in 2011. So if you're a coach the incentive to tank sure isn't there even in the apparently best cases.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:10
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:Also, imagine Baker Mayfield went to three conference championship in a row, you and every Browns fans in here certainly wouldn't consider that a failure. They didn't go to three, but how do Jets fans feel about Mark Sanchez? I really have no point here, I just exist as the only non-Jets fan to remind people that Mark Sanchez quarterbacked a team to two AFC Championship games.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:16
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The Colts were very much a success in the short term, which eventually hosed up everything in the long term due to personality bullshit from the front office. I know I did a post on this somewhere before, but their 2012 draft was really good aside from just Andrew Luck. They also got T.Y. Hilton, who started off as just a decent complimentary pick for a 3rd round guy nobody really knew of. They also grabbed both Coby Fleener and Dwayne Allen at tight end. Fleener missed a bunch of games and basically fell behind Allen on the depth chart, in part because Allen was a more traditional blocking type tight end who even played fullback a bit in Bruce Arians system that year. They drafted running back Vick Ballard, who was their starter the back half of the season and wasn't flashy (Something like 800 rushing yards and sub-4 YPC), but looked to be a solid complimentary piece. They also overpaid for a bunch of mediocre free agents on both sides of the ball (Guys like Donnie Avery and Tom Zbikowski), but none of them were signed to albatross contracts that hosed over the team (Then, like now, they had tons of cap space) and they were generally improvements over whatever random 6th round picks and UDFAs that they had used the year or two previously. They also traded for Vontae Davis, who went to a few Pro Bowls and was solid for a while. Obviously, Luck was the main engine that made this all work, but after the 2012 season, the Colts looked to be very solid, and it was expected that all of those other guys would be contributors going forward. Hilton would quickly exceed all expectations, filling in nicely as the team's top receiver when Reggie Wayne got hurt in 2013, but none of the rest would work out. Fleener turned out to be wildly inconsistent, and never developed the rapport he had with Luck in college. Allen and Ballard both got hurt on opening day in 2013 and went out for the season. Allen was never really the same in subsequent years, while Ballard never played again. Their absence lead to the Trent Richardson trade, which was turned out to be a massive failure. All of this is because Ryan Grigson got full of himself and hosed up royally after 2012. They never changed their approach to free agency, generally signing older guys for slightly over value rather than getting true impact players. Some worked out, like Mike Adams, but then you had the likes of Darius Heyward-Bey; Starting WR, the ghost of Andre Johnson, and forcing Richardson into a starting role. And their drafting turned awful. Rather than continuing to build a full team around Luck, namely on the offensive line, Grigson started going after project pass rushers, receivers the team really didn't need like Donte Moncrief and Philip Dorsett. The Colts 2012 draft and offseason is almost the ideal way to come out of a terrible season, even if you take Luck out as quarterback since they drafted 4 other guys who made significant contributions on offense and looked to be pieces for the future. But Grigson felt the team was always just one or two players away from winning a Super Bowl, and thought his project players (Bjorn Werner) and free agents (Erik Walden) would be the final pieces. They didn't continue to address the core aspects of the team, namely offensive line in a meaningful way, and assumed that any random guys from University of Miami or Stanford would suffice (Hi there, Griff Whalen). Had their drafts and free agencies not been generally awful after 2012, particularly in 2013-14 before Luck really started getting beaten up, things likely would have played out very differently... tl;dr: gently caress you, Ryan Grigson!
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Dec 25, 2019 03:16
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Ches Neckbeard posted:and then Luck died because they tanked. The reason they tanked retired in his prime. That's a failure. No it isn’t a failure you doofus. “Got the first overall and drafted the most desirable QB prospect since Peyton Manning” isn’t a failure. They went to the playoffs a bunch because of Luck. Further, tanking isn’t what caused Luck to get injured. It was a relentless FO dedication to not getting him the offensive line help he needed. That’s completely independent of the initial tank to get Luck in the first place. Also, lol at the idea that tanking “only works in the NBA”. The sport that has a lottery for top picks is worse for tanking than the nfl which does not have a lottery. On top of that, the roster size and talent distribution of the NFL is such that top picks are always useful. Compare that to the NBA where it’s often a 1-2 player draft, if that.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:17
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In almost every case I can think of a tank working was when the franchise had no intention of tanking and just had a bad enough year to clean house or had a good core that died to injuries which allowed good draft picks to revitalize the team.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:18
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:No it isn’t a failure you doofus. Well, the reason tanking generally fails is that your organization has to be fairly dysfunctional to get to the point that it's worth trying and committing to being really lovely doesn't make it less dysfunctional based on the apparent evidence. So sure, they got Luck, then they brought in a front office that got him killed because you can't tank your way to a good GM and coach.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:22
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:No it isn’t a failure you doofus. Tanking is supposed to lead to long term success. We're talking about an era where a 15 year career for a top tier QB is normal. They had brief success and lost their entire reason they tanked.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:24
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really queer Christmas posted:In almost every case I can think of a tank working was when the franchise had no intention of tanking and just had a bad enough year to clean house or had a good core that died to injuries which allowed good draft picks to revitalize the team. If we're thinking of all sports I guess a multi-year tank worked for the Astros (plus a lot of cheating as we found out later). Maybe the Penguins getting Crosby and Malkin?
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Dec 25, 2019 03:24
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YOLOsubmarine posted:They also fired Fox at the end of the year. And the Colts fired Caldwell in 2011. So if you're a coach the incentive to tank sure isn't there even in the apparently best cases. Yeah, the incentives of different actors is the difficulty with tanking. But that’s not an argument against the hypothetical returns from tanking. More teams should do the Seahawks or Patriots thing where the GM and HC are effectively one decision making body. Go to ownership and have the GM and HC tell ownership “it’s going to suck really bad for two years but then we will have the opportunity to make good playoff runs”.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:34
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Also lol I just remembered the Trent Richardson trade.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:35
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The Colts didn't even intentionally tank. They lucked into their terrible record when Peyton Manning's neck surgery recovery didn't go as expected and he missed the entire season.
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Dec 25, 2019 03:41
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Also Polian has drafted like rear end for the few years prior, so peak Peyton kept them with double digit wins as the team faltered. 2010 saw them get banged up and while they still went 10-6, it involved things like the Blair White project, Javarris “Edge’s Cousin” James, Dominic Rhodes Mk. III, and the death of Austin Collie and they weren’t nearly the machine they had been in years prior. Taking Peyton out of that and inserting the corpse of Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter got 2011.
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Dec 25, 2019 04:12
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What in God's name is your avatar from?
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Dec 25, 2019 04:12
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Tanking in the NFL has less promise and guarantee of return so using tanking as a strategy has not been shown to be a sure-fire improvement. To be honest good teams still seem pretty good year in and out even without tanking so the placement of the picks isnt as valuable as you might think.
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Dec 25, 2019 04:27
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:What in God's name is your avatar from? American Dad, like a 1:45 into this https://youtu.be/TSEemaX8MuE
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Dec 25, 2019 04:28
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I’m not even sure any front offices have attempted a full on tank in the way the recent Browns and Dolphins have so the jury is kinda out still
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Dec 25, 2019 04:47
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Ehud posted:The Colts didn't even intentionally tank. yeah. curtis painter was a real winner
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Dec 25, 2019 05:51
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hifi posted:yeah. curtis painter was a real winner yea they should've just grabbed one of those good qbs that are readily available instead of rolling with their backup
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Dec 25, 2019 06:13
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Manoueverable posted:N: The new raiders stadium https://twitter.com/ESPNNFL/status/1209605695055843329?s=19 If your goal is to roast the people inside under the Vegas August sun, then Mission Accomplished. Free Sauna with every ticket?
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Dec 25, 2019 06:17
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sharknado slashfic posted:https://twitter.com/Ravens/status/1209489664895270914 This is loving adorable.
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Dec 25, 2019 06:50
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Kalli posted:on top of that, look at how many former Dolphins are good now after leaving Adam Gase. Yes, but how many of them are rich as gently caress?
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Dec 25, 2019 15:00
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The colts tank failed because of Chuck Pagano is terrible see bears.
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Dec 25, 2019 15:21
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Texans-Bills seems like a fun first-round tilt.
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Dec 25, 2019 15:33
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corn on the cop posted:Texans-Bills seems like a fun first-round tilt.
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Dec 25, 2019 16:12
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Hope the Bills could win. We have had Houston play here in the playoffs before. But never the Bills. So that would be fun to see. And also a nice test, since I think of all the teams this year they did the best job slowing down Lamar Jackson.
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Dec 25, 2019 16:24
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https://twitter.com/NFL/status/1209821153570758656 lol Minshew is just 
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Dec 25, 2019 16:25
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Marshawn Lynch hall of fame yes or no?
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Dec 25, 2019 16:36
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Bigass Moth posted:Marshawn Lynch hall of fame yes or no? Sadly probably not, his counting stats aren't overwhelming. But behind that half the voters are idiots who care about the whole not talking to the press thing and will use that to pretend he wasn't a team player or something. But in our hearts he is a hall of famer.
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Dec 25, 2019 16:40
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Merry Christmas y’all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJCTJCFyE8
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Dec 25, 2019 17:38
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https://twitter.com/JimmyJohnson/status/1209869380248592384?s=20
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Dec 25, 2019 18:03
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Grittybeard posted:Sadly probably not, his counting stats aren't overwhelming. But behind that half the voters are idiots who care about the whole not talking to the press thing and will use that to pretend he wasn't a team player or something. Good peak, not enough sustainability, probably hall of very good. Doesn't really have a peak that is above Adrian Peterson, or the eternal Frank Gore career.
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Dec 25, 2019 18:16
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