Traditional Games Chat Thread 2020: The Tyranny of Fun

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Traditional Games Chat Thread 2020: The Tyranny of Fun

«‹›213 »

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

mllaneza posted:

I don't think I can get more than 8 pages out of Advanced Creeks & Crawdads, so no.

But my credit card is primed to back a bunch of cool poo poo. Last year had some real gems come out (*cough* Goblinville * cough * Four Ways To Die In the Future *cough*).

Do you want your copy of Basic C&C back? If so, PM me your address so I can send it to you.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 13:01

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 9, 2024 14:44

UnCO3: Feb 11, 2010; Ye gods!; College Slice

Tibalt posted:

Has anyone participated in Zine Quest? Is anyone planning to participate in Zine Quest 2? It's there a more appropriate thread to chat about it?

I'm putting together something for it.

I'm also putting together a thread for people who design and publish ttrpg stuff (since neither the game design workshop thread, nor the crowdfunding thread, nor the industry thread are a good fit).

# ? Jan 3, 2020 15:44

Epi Lepi: Oct 29, 2009; You can hear the voice
Telling you to Love
It's the voice of MK Ultra
And you're doing what it wants

I have a semi-related question to the DM prep question, how much note taking do you as a DM do during/after the session to keep track of what the PCs are actually doing? I generally forget to do any sort of note taking but I also have the memory of a goldfish so I forget sometimes what I've told the PCs about X. So I feel like it's something I should do, but I'm curious if people have figured out shortcuts or organizational tips or anything of that nature.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 17:27

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; Out here, everything hurts.

I trust that anything the players are interested in, they will ask me about later, and keep a running list of plots in the back of my head. So if they really like the jittery fixer with the blown-out wired reflexes and want to work with him more, I've got a vague idea of what he wants (and it's whatever they're most interested in doing).

The secret is that the PCs are the story. Everything you prep can be instantly and easily reskinned based on what they want to do. Stat-block wise all adventures are the same, just the flavor changes.

Thus is the zen of low-prep GMing.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jan 3, 2020

# ? Jan 3, 2020 18:05

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

After a couple of sessions of Apocalypse World I basically do 0 prep and it works fine. Just have a couple of stories with rough drafts and then just work with the narrative.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 18:43

hyphz: Aug 5, 2003; Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.; Unlockable Ben

Liquid Communism posted:

The secret is that the PCs are the story. Everything you prep can be instantly and easily reskinned based on what they want to do. Stat-block wise all adventures are the same, just the flavor changes.

What makes me nervous about this is the idea that you can make a hard division between story and flavor in the same way, when the players might turn out to treat one as the other.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 18:48

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

The way I like to think of it, my prep is my first draft and the players are my editors. I like to do a fair amount of outlining in my head before sessions, though most of the real written down prep I do is getting enough statblocks ready to be flexible depending on what happens. I don't mind throwing out prepwork because I just enjoy doing the writing, so I'm happy to come up with ideas and then see if the players bite or get excited about them and toss them if they don't or expand on something that didn't get a lot of work if they seize on it.

The single most important thing is this: If you're uncomfortable with improv, doing a couple outlines can really help. But whatever amount of prep you do, the reason I call the players the editors is because when they show you they're interested or not you have to respond to them. Feng Shui 1e actually had a nice bit of advice in it on why you don't over-develop NPCs before they have contact with the players and I think it applies more generally; it isn't that you might waste your work, it's that if you spent an hour or two writing what you think is a dynamite idea and then the players think it's dull or don't explore it or don't care, you'll be more tempted to try to force it in. Whatever prep you do, you have to be willing to toss it or change it after it hits the PCs if it's not a hit.

For this same reason, any and all advice about talking to your players directly before you get started is going to save you a lot of time. I've gamed with the same friends for a very long time, so it's not hard for me to guess what will be a hit or a miss and people are pretty open with each other, but if you're newer to a group you might have to do more work to get communication going. Never be worried about 'spoiling twists' or something; secrets and surprise are much less valuable than knowing you're going into a game everyone wants to play and they're overrated as story elements as it is. Sitting down during session zero and going 'Hey these are some of the parts of the setting I'm really excited about and think are really cool, and I have a basic idea for a plot for X' and then getting feedback and seeing if everyone's on board won't just save you time, but hearing what everyone is excited about will probably give you ideas in and of itself. Brainstorming's a thing for a reason.

Doing some degree of outlining can really help, though; trying to full ad-lib everything can be really exhausting. Just if you ever find yourself writing a detailed timetable of events or something it's time to stop and loosen things up a bit.

E: To add to this a little, also don't be afraid to tell the players stuff you're excited about, too! In the whole 'collaborative storytelling' part of this hobby, it's important for the GM to have fun too and it's way easier to come up with ideas you're interested in than to slog through something you're not excited about. Everyone should be working together to have a good time!

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jan 3, 2020

# ? Jan 3, 2020 19:14

hyphz: Aug 5, 2003; Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.; Unlockable Ben

It's interesting you mention Feng Shui because last year a friend tried to run a Feng Shui 2e game and basically realized most of my worries about improv GMing. He was trying to use the 2e metaplot about the Jammers attempting to reverse the detonation of the Chi Bomb as a background, but the ultimate result was that the PCs kind of wandered around not really sure what we were doing, took control of some monastery in the Ancient Juncture but then went home without really knowing what we'd done, regularly had random fights in "the junkyard" in the Netherworld but never had any idea about the layout or what exactly was there, and then just before it broke up the GM tried to bail out by having us work with a fringe scientist who'd invented equipment to detect pop-up junctures and could send us to explore them. Which was kind of going in the direction of a fetch quest structure, and we rooted around in the prehistoric for a bit before I suggested we should try to find a Feng Shui site and attune it so that no-one could take it back unless the same pop-up juncture showed up (very unlikely). Again, the prehistoric felt like a blank landscape until we arrived at a lagoon and then butchered some dinosaurs for what felt like no particular reason other than that it'd be appropriate for us to have to fight to take a site, and I later found that I'd totally sidetracked the GM by suggesting we take a site in the pop-up juncture, which I'd normally try not to do (honestly I thought that was what he wanted us to do).

In the successful PbtA game I played with Madcat the "playing in fog" issue was kind of resolved by the focus being shifted to higher level actions and concerns than in the games I'm used to but it helped that the setting was also such that it avoided cases where this was particularly likely to come up, so I don't know if it was just unfortunate setting choices (someone else in the group mentioned to him earlier, "dude, don't try to do the whole metaplot, no GM can sandbox the entire Earth in 4 different time periods"), but it did have a definite feeling of "there but for the grace of god go I".

# ? Jan 3, 2020 20:36

Ilor: Feb 2, 2008; That's a crit.

hyphz posted:

What makes me nervous about this is the idea that you can make a hard division between story and flavor in the same way, when the players might turn out to treat one as the other.

I think it's less complicated than you're trying to make it. When people say, "the players are the story," what they're saying is that the important stuff in the game is the stuff the players are interested in. And while you can absolutely separate story (what events, conflicts, and actions the PCs take) from flavor (backdrop themes and trappings of the setting), those aren't really all that easy to confuse.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 20:59

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

hyphz posted:

It's interesting you mention Feng Shui because last year a friend tried to run a Feng Shui 2e game and basically realized most of my worries about improv GMing. He was trying to use the 2e metaplot about the Jammers attempting to reverse the detonation of the Chi Bomb as a background, but the ultimate result was that the PCs kind of wandered around not really sure what we were doing, took control of some monastery in the Ancient Juncture but then went home without really knowing what we'd done, regularly had random fights in "the junkyard" in the Netherworld but never had any idea about the layout or what exactly was there, and then just before it broke up the GM tried to bail out by having us work with a fringe scientist who'd invented equipment to detect pop-up junctures and could send us to explore them. Which was kind of going in the direction of a fetch quest structure, and we rooted around in the prehistoric for a bit before I suggested we should try to find a Feng Shui site and attune it so that no-one could take it back unless the same pop-up juncture showed up (very unlikely). Again, the prehistoric felt like a blank landscape until we arrived at a lagoon and then butchered some dinosaurs for what felt like no particular reason other than that it'd be appropriate for us to have to fight to take a site, and I later found that I'd totally sidetracked the GM by suggesting we take a site in the pop-up juncture, which I'd normally try not to do (honestly I thought that was what he wanted us to do).

In the successful PbtA game I played with Madcat the "playing in fog" issue was kind of resolved by the focus being shifted to higher level actions and concerns than in the games I'm used to but it helped that the setting was also such that it avoided cases where this was particularly likely to come up, so I don't know if it was just unfortunate setting choices (someone else in the group mentioned to him earlier, "dude, don't try to do the whole metaplot, no GM can sandbox the entire Earth in 4 different time periods"), but it did have a definite feeling of "there but for the grace of god go I".

I've seen this with a variety of DMs in a variety of games. They finish reading the book and think "Well okay, time to relate ALL of that information to the players as fast as possible" and then the adventure is disjointed and bad. It's even worse in games with heavily NPC-driven metaplot, where you end up on a tour of watching Elminster or some TORG highlord do everything and maybe it's your job to bring them a hot towel.

It's a DM failing, not a game failing. Feng Shui's metaplot is basically just a big excuse to include as many action movie types as possible, but the adventures themselves don't have to be that also.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 21:04

Tiger: Oct 18, 2012; And you, who are you? This is what we've got, yes. What are you going to make of it?; Fun Shoe

Re: Redwall
Tales of Timberwind which was mentioned here is available in at least some drafts (incomplete?) by joining Vincent Baker's Patreon, I believe.

I wrote a light re-skin of Dungeon World for Redwall way back, if that's of any interest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11hL4lEG_Qi1eiINCQGkDR32F8KNl4x_hCvHBp5-Wg7A/edit?usp=drivesdk

# ? Jan 3, 2020 21:55

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Ilor posted:

I think it's less complicated than you're trying to make it.

Ah, I see you've met hyphz

# ? Jan 3, 2020 22:42

Nea: Feb 28, 2014; Funny Little Guy Aficionado.

hyphz posted:

In the successful PbtA game I played with Madcat

oh! you've played a pbta game and it went well now! That rules!

# ? Jan 4, 2020 04:12

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; Out here, everything hurts.

hyphz posted:

What makes me nervous about this is the idea that you can make a hard division between story and flavor in the same way, when the players might turn out to treat one as the other.

You're vastly overcomplicating it.

The only things that are important are those the players treat as important. If the players want to wander off and start a kobold rescue society instead of following the epic Final Fantasy-esqe plot, you run with it, because that's what the table's having fun with.

# ? Jan 4, 2020 08:37

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

Liquid Communism posted:

You're vastly overcomplicating it.

The only things that are important are those the players treat as important. If the players want to wander off and start a kobold rescue society instead of following the epic Final Fantasy-esqe plot, you run with it, because that's what the table's having fun with.

Splicer posted:

Ah, I see you've met hyphz

Actual thing I came to post instead of a dumb joke : how have we been doing the whole I Am the Moon/Monte Cook joke for almost a decade and I don't remember anyone ever saying Moonte Cook. It's right there.

# ? Jan 4, 2020 09:05

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Liquid Communism posted:

The only things that are important are those the players treat as important. If the players want to wander off and start a kobold rescue society instead of following the epic Final Fantasy-esqe plot, you run with it, because that's what the table's having fun with.

On top of that, you can't separate story from "flavor" because character motivations and actions are informed and restricted by the participants' agreement about overall theme and tone, and vice versa.

Doesn't matter whether that's explicit (we discussed what we wanted before the game began and agreed to aim for epic fate-of-the-world stuff with dragon slaying and fighting gods, we re-discuss once per month) or implicit (we've been playing a kobold rescue society for 6 months and the current source of drama is whether or not Skuk's birthday cake will be finished on time).

# ? Jan 4, 2020 10:20

Elfgames: Sep 11, 2011; Fun Shoe

Xiahou Dun posted:

Actual thing I came to post instead of a dumb joke : how have we been doing the whole I Am the Moon/Monte Cook joke for almost a decade and I don't remember anyone ever saying Moonte Cook. It's right there.

it's definitely happened.

# ? Jan 4, 2020 10:58

Kestral: Nov 24, 2000; Forum Veteran

Tiger posted:

Re: Redwall
Tales of Timberwind which was mentioned here is available in at least some drafts (incomplete?) by joining Vincent Baker's Patreon, I believe.

I wrote a light re-skin of Dungeon World for Redwall way back, if that's of any interest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11hL4lEG_Qi1eiINCQGkDR32F8KNl4x_hCvHBp5-Wg7A/edit?usp=drivesdk

Yep, I should have plugged the Baker family Patreon earlier. The draft up there is definitely incomplete, but it'll give you an idea of what's being worked on. Good value-for-money Patreon, too.

# ? Jan 4, 2020 19:16

UnCO3: Feb 11, 2010; Ye gods!; College Slice

I've started up a thread for indie trad games design/production/publishing by people on SA, both for people who do it (or any aspect of it, like layout, illustration, editing etc.) or for people who're interested in what other people on SA are putting out!

If you think this means less shameless self-promotion from me in this thread, please read the subtitle of the thread I just made.

# ? Jan 4, 2020 19:58

Abyssal Squid: Jul 24, 2003

Alright, you convinced me to be shameless:

Just put out my weapon generator/picker, Humblebird's Modest Armory.

It's a departure from my usual style of exploring the fantastic corners of an enormous design space, which is why the Armory is Modest. I wanted a better way to pick various weird polearms than "browse the AD&D 1e list and end up taking the halberd anyway because it has the best stats" and there didn't seem to be one, so I made one myself. Along the way I learned a lot about medieval gunpowder weapons, which are very much included, and even if you don't buy it I want everyone to know that samurai used handheld rocket launchers.

Next in the pipeline, I've got a cartoon villain plot generator (originally inspired by Pokemon plots but since expanded a bit), and on the back burner I've got a dream generator and fantasy industrial chemistry generator simmering.

# ? Jan 4, 2020 21:31

Vox Valentine: May 31, 2013; Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Abyssal Squid posted:

Alright, you convinced me to be shameless:

Just put out my weapon generator/picker, Humblebird's Modest Armory.

It's a departure from my usual style of exploring the fantastic corners of an enormous design space, which is why the Armory is Modest. I wanted a better way to pick various weird polearms than "browse the AD&D 1e list and end up taking the halberd anyway because it has the best stats" and there didn't seem to be one, so I made one myself. Along the way I learned a lot about medieval gunpowder weapons, which are very much included, and even if you don't buy it I want everyone to know that samurai used handheld rocket launchers.

Next in the pipeline, I've got a cartoon villain plot generator (originally inspired by Pokemon plots but since expanded a bit), and on the back burner I've got a dream generator and fantasy industrial chemistry generator simmering.

Your generators have sincerely helped me have excellent jumping off points for worldbuilding and was directly responsible for coming up with the Skates in Cohesion so this is a must-buy for me.

# ? Jan 5, 2020 04:09

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Abyssal Squid posted:

Alright, you convinced me to be shameless:

Just put out my weapon generator/picker, Humblebird's Modest Armory.

It's a departure from my usual style of exploring the fantastic corners of an enormous design space, which is why the Armory is Modest. I wanted a better way to pick various weird polearms than "browse the AD&D 1e list and end up taking the halberd anyway because it has the best stats" and there didn't seem to be one, so I made one myself. Along the way I learned a lot about medieval gunpowder weapons, which are very much included, and even if you don't buy it I want everyone to know that samurai used handheld rocket launchers.

Next in the pipeline, I've got a cartoon villain plot generator (originally inspired by Pokemon plots but since expanded a bit), and on the back burner I've got a dream generator and fantasy industrial chemistry generator simmering.

I didn't know about these and now I own them, so that shamelessness worked!

# ? Jan 5, 2020 23:00

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

A large amount of people have been laid off from Fantasy Flight Games and Fantasy Flight Interactive. It's been confirmed that Fantasy Flight Interactive is set to be closed down completely. It''s suspected that most of, if not all of, the RPG department has been laid off.

# ? Jan 7, 2020 21:07

Rip_Van_Winkle: Jul 21, 2011; "When life gives you ghosts, you make ghost-robots"

I think this is a philosophy we can all aspire to.

This is an incredibly local concern but the FFG headquarters is like 5 miles from where I live and they run the FFG Games Center across the parking lot. It's really well-maintained and clean and has tons of space for events and open gaming. There's a huge library of games that are free for anyone to use, and it's how we get a feel for a lot of games that we're interested in owning. I don't know if it's profitable as a retail outlet or if it's just a sort of loss leader to get people in the door and subsequently spending money on their games/food/dice/whatever. FFG doesn't seem to be folding as a whole or anything but it'd be a shame if the space went away.

# ? Jan 7, 2020 21:37

MockingQuantum: Jan 20, 2012

Rip_Van_Winkle posted:

This is an incredibly local concern but the FFG headquarters is like 5 miles from where I live and they run the FFG Games Center across the parking lot. It's really well-maintained and clean and has tons of space for events and open gaming. There's a huge library of games that are free for anyone to use, and it's how we get a feel for a lot of games that we're interested in owning. I don't know if it's profitable as a retail outlet or if it's just a sort of loss leader to get people in the door and subsequently spending money on their games/food/dice/whatever. FFG doesn't seem to be folding as a whole or anything but it'd be a shame if the space went away.

I don't know that it'll go away (since it's an installed space to host Worlds, as well as company events) but I don't think it makes much of anything. I know they were losing money on food pretty consistently for a while, but I don't know if that's turned around or not.

# ? Jan 7, 2020 21:44

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

FFG has enough big successes that it shouldn't disappear completely. But I suspect your special space may get private equity'd the same way the digital department and the RPG department just did. Thanks PAI Partners Private Equity.

# ? Jan 7, 2020 21:46

Moriatti: Apr 21, 2014

golden bubble posted:

A large amount of people have been laid off from Fantasy Flight Games and Fantasy Flight Interactive. It's been confirmed that Fantasy Flight Interactive is set to be closed down completely. It''s suspected that most of, if not all of, the RPG department has been laid off.

That sucks, I've heard they were pretty good to freelance for.

# ? Jan 7, 2020 22:14

Coolness Averted: Feb 20, 2007; oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗

Moriatti posted:

That sucks, I've heard they were pretty good to freelance for.

dang yeah, I know someone who has done a bunch of art for them, they always paid and gave pretty reasonable direction. Luckily they have pretty steady other work, but always sucks when a shop closes.

# ? Jan 7, 2020 22:49

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Capitalism destroys everything it touches.

# ? Jan 7, 2020 23:31

thetoughestbean: Apr 27, 2013; Keep On Shroomin

Is Interactive the part of Fantasy Flight that makes(made) ttrpgs? If so, I�m surprised but not really shocked. There�s only so many games you can make that need your own bespoke dice before people lose interest.

I can second that the Fantasy Flight Games Center is good and I hope that it stays open

# ? Jan 8, 2020 03:47

senrath: Nov 4, 2009; Look Professor, a destruct switch!

No, FFI was a spinoff that was doing video game adaptations. They only managed to put out an app version of LotR: The Adventure Card game before being closed now.

# ? Jan 8, 2020 04:11

MockingQuantum: Jan 20, 2012

The RPG branch is gone as well, though.

# ? Jan 8, 2020 04:16

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

MockingQuantum posted:

The RPG branch is gone as well, though.

I thought it was pared down but not gone. Farming even more work out to chronically underpaid freelancers seems like a cost-saving measure any corporation would love.

To be frank, I'm kind of surprised FFG RPGs have lasted as long as they have. Regardless what one thinks of the mechanics or specialty dice gimmick, they have very high production values and really cranked out books at nearly 90's treadmill rates for some games.

# ? Jan 8, 2020 04:39