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BonoMan posted:Thanks! It's got more detail than just straight radar returns, but Reddit has pointed me in the direction of it being mentat powered somehow. Mentat powered is plausible too. It's not really stated either way, so it's up to the viewer. Nothing like that war room was portrayed in the books as far as I remember.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:15
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BonoMan posted:The Harkonnen's war map/3D display: Sort of seems to be computer driven? My (not-yet-read-the-books) understanding is that computers are basically outlawed, for lack of a better word due to the events of 10,000 years before. Herbert was delightfully vague on the subject of computers. The Imperium banned "thinking machines," but he never laid out exactly what does and doesn't count. He was even very vague on whether the Butlerian Jihad was a rebellion against literal killer robots, or a computerized surveillance state, or both. In a later book, a character even has a cybernetic implant in her brain, which she doesn't understand but assumes is one of the dreaded thinking machines. They have a lot of really complex technology--some of which, I assume, is impossible without some things you'd call a computer. The Spacing Guild has weather-control satellites, for example, though not on Arrakis. There are a couple places in the Imperium (Richese and Ix) which are outside the House system and have relatively free rein to develop otherwise-forbidden technology, which they sell to the Houses. There are limits to what they can get away with, but ironically, the Butlerian Jihad itself guaranteed that the Imperium isn't centralized enough for the Emperor to be constantly sending inspectors everywhere. The real prohibition seems to be on machines which can act autonomously and make decisions. But like, the dehumidifier in my laundry room turns itself on and off in response to a sensor, and a lot of equipment (like those satellites) would be impossible if such things were forbidden. So the big holo-display (which doesn't specifically appear in the books) is probably just e.g. tracking the movements of vehicles and alerting them when a spice crawler gets blown up or a Harkonnen squad doesn't report in. I'm not sure what you mean by "mentat powered." All those guys standing around interpreting the data are probably mentats, but they don't hook themselves up to machines to make them work or anything like that. (I think they'd actually get very very very mad about a machine that connects directly to your brain and projects your thoughts on the war situation in the form of a 3D map.) Something that intrigues me about the new films is that AFAIK, the Butlerian Jihad is rarely or never mentioned. And you don't really have people doing the sci-fi nerd thing where they're like "If they have X technology, surely they must have drones that can do everything, so none of these events should actually be happening, therefore Dune is stupid and I've defeated Frank Herbert in intellectual combat." People just roll with it, or ask actual questions like you're doing. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 19:33
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on my first viewing I thought rabban and the mentats were just standing around a hologram. the idea the mentats themselves were powering it like some kind of hosed up wh40k techno-ritual did not occur to me on my own but it's a cool as poo poo idea
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Apr 17, 2024 19:35
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refer to the Hunter Seeker scene for instance. you'd think you could have an autonomous robot dart go poke Paul but they had to immure some poor dope in a wall to pilot the thing instead.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:45
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One thing to note is that Leto II very deliberately loosened the butlerian proscription so a lot of appearances of computers in god emperor and later books is his doing
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Apr 17, 2024 19:46
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Again, the appendix in Dune says the Butlerian Jihad was "the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots." Whether the latter were killer T-100s or nice Wall-E's isn't made clear, but they were definitely and explicitly robots.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:59
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By "mentat-powered" I think people mean that the chanting mentats are updating the display verbally in real-time as they receive data, which checks out with the idea that technology is advanced but requires a human hand to make decisions or interpret data.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:02
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uber_stoat posted:refer to the Hunter Seeker scene for instance. you'd think you could have an autonomous robot dart go poke Paul but they had to immure some poor dope in a wall to pilot the thing instead. Nice use of immure, it's a rare opportunity to bust that one out
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Apr 17, 2024 20:14
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Halloween Jack posted:
I do wish this was brought a little more to our attention in Part 1. It honestly makes the design of everything SO much more enjoyable. It wasn't until I was watching the Nerdist recap of Part 1 (I was about to go meet a friend for the Alamo screening of Part 2 and had forgotten to re-watch it prior), that I realized that the design wasn't just cool sci-fi poo poo, but rather a reaction to the Butlerian Jihad that had made everything more... mechanical. Once I heard that (the recap has a few little mini-book dives to help things make more sense) it just opened up an entirely extra level of appreciation for it all.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:14
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Failed Imagineer posted:Nice use of immure, it's a rare opportunity to bust that one out wrong. "immure" is the exact opposite of busting something out
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Apr 17, 2024 20:22
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uber_stoat posted:refer to the Hunter Seeker scene for instance. you'd think you could have an autonomous robot dart go poke Paul but they had to immure some poor dope in a wall to pilot the thing instead. which neatly prefigured our current reality lol
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Apr 17, 2024 20:25
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BonoMan posted:The Harkonnen's war map/3D display: Sort of seems to be computer driven? My (not-yet-read-the-books) understanding is that computers are basically outlawed, for lack of a better word due to the events of 10,000 years before. This is a game. The Ixian pretend to respect the Jihad Buttlerian rules, and the big houses pretend that the Ixian are respecting it. I have not read about raizas on Ixian territory, but It would made sense for the houses to sometimes invade Ixian and destroy random machinery, almost like a ritual that the Ixian accept. That thing. I guest was made with a mix of modern technology and optical tricks, but made so required a lot of people to operate and withouth obvious thinking machines stuff. Maybe the factory where it was created was already burn by the Harkonnen in one of these raizas, but first warning of the visit to avoid hurting the artist/artisans the created it. Tei fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 21:17
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Hover technology way beyond what's currently possible is obviously way allowed, maybe the "hologram" is actually a swarm of tiny drones that receive voice commands by the mentats to form patterns
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Apr 17, 2024 21:58
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I assumed it was a fancy radar output and the chanting weirdos were just there for vibes.
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Apr 17, 2024 23:56
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Simply Simon posted:Hover technology way beyond what's currently possible is obviously way allowed, maybe the "hologram" is actually a swarm of tiny drones that receive voice commands by the mentats to form patterns There's no blanket rule against "advanced technology" in the universe. Hover tech is possible because of the Holtzman Effect, which isn't really explained but which we're left to assume is just some subatomic principle that can be harnessed
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Apr 18, 2024 00:16
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well why not posted:I assumed it was a fancy radar output and the chanting weirdos were just there for vibes. Very Harkonnen vibes, yeah. Their language sounds like it hurts to say.
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Apr 18, 2024 00:18
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PeterWeller posted:Again, the appendix in Dune says the Butlerian Jihad was "the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots." Whether the latter were killer T-100s or nice Wall-E's isn't made clear, but they were definitely and explicitly robots. I much prefer the idea that it wasn't a violent war for the survival of humanity but everyone just getting radicalized by AIs and supercomputers making human labours or power structures obsolete. e: To me, Dune exists now at a critical time of humanity where we are facing the climate catastrophe looming but also how we are each individually media and information saturated to the point that everyone can be prescient about which difficult and violent futures face us. Adding into that mix the parallel of the Butlerian Jihad and ourselves today being made obsolete by GPTs and other large-data models would have been a great move by Villeneuve. breadshaped fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 13:36
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If you consider Brian Herbert's stuff as canon then it was absolutely a war against rogue AI trying to exterminate humanity.
Nitrousoxide fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 14:06
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Failson should be shot out of a canon.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:39
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Nitrousoxide posted:If you consider Brian Herbert's stuff as canon This is a huge ask
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Apr 18, 2024 15:14
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AnEdgelord posted:This is a huge ask Chapterhouse implied an alarming amount (more than 0) was Frank’s actual intention. Eg every character from every book is grown in a no-ship for a HUGE party
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Apr 18, 2024 15:33
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breadshaped posted:I much prefer the idea that it wasn't a violent war for the survival of humanity but everyone just getting radicalized by AIs and supercomputers making human labours or power structures obsolete. It's called a jihad in a book that constantly uses the term jihad to refer to a looming, bloody religious war across the stars that will engulf all of humanity. I get not wanting to go with Brian and KJA's interpretation of Saturday morning cartoon villains twirling their metallic mustaches as they plan the extinction of humanity and instead focusing your attention on the Reverend mother talking about men using machines to enslave other men and the Jihad removing a "crutch" that humanity was all too dependent upon. But to think it wasn't a violent event is to just entirely ignore the the rest of the context around it. Also, the point isn't that the "thinking machines" (and "conscious robots"--for the umpteenth time, this is plain text found in the novel!) made humanity obsolete. It's that unlocking the full potential of humanity makes those things obsolete. E: Nitrousoxide posted:If you consider Brian Herbert's stuff as canon then it was absolutely a war against rogue AI trying to exterminate humanity. This understanding predates Brian and KJH's garbage. It's what The Dune Encyclopedia says what happened. It's what's implied by Siona's vision and everything Leto II tells her about Ix and Arafel in God Emperor of Dune. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 16:26
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It's been a while since I read Dune. Wouldn't the personal shields cover the swords themselves, thus making it impossible to stab someone while shielded?
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Apr 18, 2024 17:06
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Nitrousoxide posted:If you consider Brian Herbert's stuff as canon
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Apr 18, 2024 17:24
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Nitrousoxide posted:If you consider Brian Herbert's stuff I'm gonna stop you right there
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Apr 18, 2024 17:55
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hillaryous clinton posted:It's been a while since I read Dune. Wouldn't the personal shields cover the swords themselves, thus making it impossible to stab someone while shielded? poo poo you're right. gently caress I never thought about that. man shields are dumb as gently caress!
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Apr 18, 2024 17:57
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hillaryous clinton posted:It's been a while since I read Dune. Wouldn't the personal shields cover the swords themselves, thus making it impossible to stab someone while shielded?
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Apr 18, 2024 19:00
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hillaryous clinton posted:It's been a while since I read Dune. Wouldn't the personal shields cover the swords themselves, thus making it impossible to stab someone while shielded? Listen, Jack.
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Apr 18, 2024 19:18
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The slow shield penetrates the blade *taps forehead*
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Apr 18, 2024 19:22
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hillaryous clinton posted:It's been a while since I read Dune. Wouldn't the personal shields cover the swords themselves, thus making it impossible to stab someone while shielded? nope
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Apr 18, 2024 19:29
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hillaryous clinton posted:It's been a while since I read Dune. Wouldn't the personal shields cover the swords themselves, thus making it impossible to stab someone while shielded? A
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Apr 18, 2024 19:31
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hillaryous clinton posted:It's been a while since I read Dune. Wouldn't the personal shields cover the swords themselves, thus making it impossible to stab someone while shielded? Yeah. It's such an honor-bound society that they're really just sparring and when it's clear who's going to win, they both turn off their shields really quickly and the loser yields and dies.
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Apr 18, 2024 19:40
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There’s countless quotes in the real Dune books that all but state the jihad was an ideological war of man against man rather than the plot of Terminator. Sure the pro machine side undoubtedly used killbots, but it wasn’t a side led by killbots.
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Apr 18, 2024 19:47
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To be fair, the pro-technology side probably outsourced all of the actual decisionmaking to the killbots. And you know what they decided!
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Apr 18, 2024 19:56
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I think they should've just eliminated the shields entirely for the film and went full on Dune 2/2000/Emperor from Westwood in terms of the combat aesthetic.
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Apr 18, 2024 20:23
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No.
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Apr 18, 2024 20:25
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People seem to often criticize shields as a worldbuilding component, but demonstrably in the eyes of denis it's more integral than say the spacing guild. I guess ultimately who's a better judge of dune, posters or denis
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Apr 18, 2024 20:35
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a patagonian cavy posted:Cut down by sardaukar is how he dies in the first book though? Okay, but then his body is caught in a big explosion.
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Apr 18, 2024 20:36
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Emperor: Battle for Dune rocked. It had Worf as Duke Atreides and you could laser shields and blow up both your's and the enemy's armies.
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Apr 18, 2024 20:40
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Halloween Jack posted:To be fair, the pro-technology side probably outsourced all of the actual decisionmaking to the killbots. And you know what they decided! A system that works! 
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Apr 18, 2024 21:02
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