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By the way I'm taking the full loss on the prior topic- sorry about the derail, boys. oh no
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Mar 30, 2024 15:46
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Dune is only gonna be in theaters for a month and a half before it goes to digital? Wow.
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Mar 30, 2024 17:30
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Better than the last film
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Mar 30, 2024 17:40
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Gaius Marius posted:Even at the end he tries to avoid the Jihad by asking the Great Houses to surrender and take his marriage to Irulan and assumption of the throne without conflict, this doesn't work of course. him defeated as he says "lead them to paradise" and the World of Warcraft rear end music swells was so good on repeat viewings.
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Mar 30, 2024 19:53
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Kvantum posted:I wish I could get past my issues with the changes, but I can't. As great of a spectacle as parts of this film are, so much of it feels dumbed down compared to the books. Herbert has Paul learn about the ecology of the worm and thus the spice, and uses this knowledge to threaten the Guild in a uniquely different way, a Fremen way. Villneuve has Paul just threaten to nuke stuff like any other human. Agree. The spectacle really does a lot of heavy lifting filling in dumb gaps or changes to the plot that had no need to be made.
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Mar 30, 2024 20:04
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It finally came in the mail. D U N C time.
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Mar 30, 2024 20:39
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why do the harkonen suits look like amongus costumes?
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Mar 30, 2024 20:45
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Failed Imagineer posted:
I am pretty sure that's Thufir's hand with the injection, which would follow from the book set up.
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Mar 30, 2024 20:51
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Kvantum posted:Herbert has Paul learn about the ecology of the worm and thus the spice, and uses this knowledge to threaten the Guild in a uniquely different way, a Fremen way. Villneuve has Paul just threaten to nuke stuff like any other human. Well, sort of, but it's ecobabble that has no real setup. Water of Life + pre-spice mass = ??? A planet-wide chain reaction that kills all little makers? How, and how quickly? It always felt like one of the weaker plot points to me. Pre-spice masses and little makers are details that have been dropped for the films, totally reasonably. So adapting that "faithfully" would make even less sense than it does in the novel, or would need a big exposition dump. The threat of nuking the spice sands with the family atomics is Paul's initial plan after the attack in the novel so it's not like it came out of nowhere. I agree that a bunch of ecological nuance has been lost, and it's a shame in the abstract, but film is a visual medium. I'm ok with Paul's threat being "I'll make more of those huge booms you just saw" instead of "allow me to explain how using a minute quantity of fluid heretofore known only to Fremen, combined with a pre-spice mass, a sort of chemical bubble under the sand you've never seen, will cause a worldwide chain reaction wiping out all little makers, an animal-plant hybrid that totally exists. This ends spice production, eventually, trust me."
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Mar 30, 2024 20:54
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Tankbuster posted:why do the harkonen suits look like amongus costumes? Because where the Fremen suits are about conserving resources and operating in equilibrium with the environment, the Harkonen ones are about imposing themselves on the environment, brute forcing it to allow them to live while remaining separate from the natural world. Hence totally enclosed with fans desperately trying to overcome the heat.
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Mar 30, 2024 21:03
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Because where the Fremen suits are about conserving resources and operating in equilibrium with the environment, the Harkonen ones are about imposing themselves on the environment, brute forcing it to allow them to live while remaining separate from the natural world. Hence totally enclosed with fans desperately trying to overcome the heat. they should say Fremen Sus
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Mar 30, 2024 21:38
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Prolonged Panorama posted:I'm ok with Paul's threat being "I'll make more of those huge booms you just saw" instead of "allow me to explain how using a minute quantity of fluid heretofore known only to Fremen, combined with a pre-spice mass, a sort of chemical bubble under the sand you've never seen, will cause a worldwide chain reaction wiping out all little makers, an animal-plant hybrid that totally exists. This ends spice production, eventually, trust me." to be fair in the book he explains this to two Guild Navigators who are confirming everything hes saying using their own prescience so his intended audience for these statements knows them to be true with absolute certainty which again goes back to what I think is the only genuine mistake of the adaptation, cutting the Guild out of story it makes several plot points much more awkward, such as the southern hemisphere thing where in the book its because the Fremen are bribing the Guild with a lot of Spice for privacy while in the movie the reason nobody knows the south is inhabited is ???? also I don't know if the little makers and pre spice masses have been "dropped" so much as "not mentioned"
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Mar 30, 2024 21:41
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AnEdgelord posted:to be fair in the book he explains this to two Guild Navigators who are confirming everything hes saying using their own prescience so his intended audience for these statements knows them to be true with absolute certainty Not that they mention it in the second movie specifically, but there is a whole thing about not having satellites above Arrakis. No it's not established that the guild specifically is the reason for that, but it is established, so that's the reason nobody knows the south is inhabited. Really think this is a case of "Book reader can see the shape of the whole, even an invested movie-only viewer will simply accept things without even realizing the explanation that would've happened is missing." (Sure this opens up so why does the emperor figure it out but again without knowing what the explanation WOULD have been, a lot of people are totally willing to just assume "emperor must have better tech than the Harkonens and Atreides do.")
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Mar 30, 2024 21:48
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The movie specifically mentions that the BG still get messages occasionally from the south. It makes perfect sense within the movie's framing that the harkonens aren't interested in the fremen at all. They constantly call them rats, underestimate them and have to use brutal repression and offoworld reinforcements to deal with the cities up north. The south is impenetrable to them with all their cool tech so clearly nothing else can survive their either. Its why when the emperor arrives and chews the baron out eventually.
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Mar 30, 2024 22:12
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Nothing says "you are having a bad time" like walking around the desert in a giant black egg suit with a two-inch fan twirling in the back.
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Mar 30, 2024 22:49
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Tree Bucket posted:Nothing says "you are having a bad time" like walking around the desert in a giant black egg suit with a two-inch fan twirling in the back. *Sgt. Colbert voice from Generation Kill* Anyone happen to remember we're invading a loving desert planet?
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Mar 30, 2024 23:28
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You're not gay if you think Feyd is lovely, we all think he's lovely.
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Mar 30, 2024 23:44
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You inappropriatin' yo stillsuit filtration device by attemptin' fornication wit it!
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Mar 31, 2024 00:42
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Hats off to Timothee's acting and Hans Zimmer's godlike soundtrack. Because once Paul was resurrected, it didn't take any guessing to see that he was no longer the hero of this story.
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Mar 31, 2024 01:53
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i feel like it should also be mentioned, in and amidst the talk of the family atomics, that the novel mentions in passing that the use of said atomics against humans is a violation of the Great Convention, and is grounds for immediate expulsion from the Landsraad and your house being exiled & purged from the Empire. Like, the use of nukes is accepted grounds for being invaded by the Sardaukar. They're very much intended not even to be a threat, but a deterrence of last resort when faced with destruction. Paul even intends to hide under the exact wording of the Convention, noting that they're using the Atreides atomics against a geological feature, not against troops or people. I think at one point Duke Leto even briefly considers going rogue and just fleeing the Empire with the atomics in tow, making them out like a "the ONE thing you grab to take with you when the house is on fire" house heirloom.
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Mar 31, 2024 02:42
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IIRC it was worse than that: using nukes was grounds for every great house nuking your entire planet out from under you immediately.
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Mar 31, 2024 12:25
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Yeah, pretty much the only real valid use for them was a 'taking you with me' MAD suicide doctrine, though of course Paul uses a loophole he doesn't really expect to hole up, but he's already do-or-die anyway.
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Mar 31, 2024 15:27
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He also expects that Arrakis's status as "the sole source of spice in the known universe" makes the planet essentially unnukable and the great houses will use any pretext whatsoever to not respond purely to preserve spice production.
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Mar 31, 2024 15:34
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Hats off to Timothee's acting and Hans Zimmer's godlike soundtrack. Because once Paul was resurrected, it didn't take any guessing to see that he was no longer the hero of this story. The war council seen became unsettling and Muad'dib was very obviously not going to be a "good person/hero". The movie hammered it home when he invoked winning like the Harkonnens. The movie also did an excellent job of conveying that the Bene Gesserit and their plans were also not really a "good thing". It was interesting that Irulan came out somewhat symptomatic in all this. However, if they Introduce the guild in part 3 and the guild plot, that sympathy will likely also be ripped away.
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Mar 31, 2024 18:50
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Kvantum posted:I wish I could get past my issues with the changes, but I can't. As great of a spectacle as parts of this film are, so much of it feels dumbed down compared to the books. Herbert has Paul learn about the ecology of the worm and thus the spice, and uses this knowledge to threaten the Guild in a uniquely different way, a Fremen way. Villneuve has Paul just threaten to nuke stuff like any other human. The only way to get a modern high budget dune movie nowadays.
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Apr 1, 2024 21:37
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the movie is very specifically focused on the relationship between religion and colonialism. the elements of ecology, language, politics, and economics are all there but very muted or in service of the major elements which denis wanted to focus on. it's fairly easy to conceptualize an adaptation under the same constraints which emphasizes and examines the political and economic incentives of the characters, but likely the other themes would have to make way as a result. then the positions of the people who connect with those themes and that of those who connect with the religious angle would be reversed. but if you can't take as a given that meaning is necessarily lost (and gained!) in transition from one medium to another, you were probably always doomed to be unable to engage with the work. frankly, it's a miracle of adaptation given how much of the story is retained in light of how big the budget is.
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Apr 1, 2024 21:49
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Yeah, pretty much the only real valid use for them was a 'taking you with me' MAD suicide doctrine, though of course Paul uses a loophole he doesn't really expect to hole up, but he's already do-or-die anyway. Even before the poo poo prequels, IIRC it's mentioned that besides MAD it was also a like "okay we're pretty sure after 10s of thousands of years that there's no humanoid life out here but us humans but just in case..."
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Apr 1, 2024 22:45
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Dune is in the same category of Lord of the Rings. Are they perfect movies? Nope. Is there any possible timeline in which we get better ones? Haha, no. Also I wonder if bringing out Dune's ecological themes would be... counter productive? Like, ecology today means "can we save this species/habitat/biosphere from humanity" whereas Arrakis is a planet so hostile that humans can't even walk there without risking death. Since ecology generally equals conservation it's really difficult to invoke ecology without also giving the sense that Arrakis is fragile. The spice harvesters are presented as pretty monstrous, but not in an ecological sense. There's never any Avatar-esque montage of battered oil-slick dunes and sad kangaroo mice. I don't think there's a single scene of a harvester in operation that doesn't end in said harvester getting exploded or eaten.
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Apr 1, 2024 23:04
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banned from Starbucks posted:You inappropriatin' yo stillsuit filtration device by attemptin' fornication wit it!
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Apr 1, 2024 23:52
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Tree Bucket posted:Dune is in the same category of Lord of the Rings. Are they perfect movies? Nope. Is there any possible timeline in which we get better ones? Haha, no. The Fremen basically want to destroy the natural ecology of Arrakis. It’s definitely not a form of “environmentalism” that fits with most modern peoples conceptions of it. If anything modern mores would kinda paint the Fremen in a bad light. Imagine the twitter hot takes about the Fremen destroying the unique environment of the majestic Sandworm so they can put up yet another forest instead of moving to forest-world. Imagine the “crying Indian” commercial but instead of looking at a highway the Fremen (who is played by a Sarduakar actor) is crying because he sees a lush meadow filled with frolicking children and lambs.
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Apr 2, 2024 00:21
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It's a weird detail, isn't it. The Fremen know the desert, and respect it, and find it beautiful (sometimes) but also kinda hate it and want it gone and replaced with a green paradise where a man need never again utter the phrase "urine and feces are processed in the thigh pads." I want to see those Harkonnen environmentalist ads.
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Apr 2, 2024 00:24
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in the book at least the Fremen fully intend to preserve portions of the desert, they just don't want it to be the sole biome on the whole planet and would prefer to have at least SOME temperate regions with green foliage
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Apr 2, 2024 00:33
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the delivery of “green paradise” really stuck with me
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Apr 2, 2024 00:39
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galagazombie posted:The Fremen basically want to destroy the natural ecology of Arrakis. It’s definitely not a form of “environmentalism” that fits with most modern peoples conceptions of it. If anything modern mores would kinda paint the Fremen in a bad light. Imagine the twitter hot takes about the Fremen destroying the unique environment of the majestic Sandworm so they can put up yet another forest instead of moving to forest-world. Imagine the “crying Indian” commercial but instead of looking at a highway the Fremen (who is played by a Sarduakar actor) is crying because he sees a lush meadow filled with frolicking children and lambs. This should be understood in the context of mid-century (and earlier) ideals to oasify the Sahara and Arabian Peninsula. There were a handful of pretty outrageous proposals, beyond more sensible environmental engineering plans.
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Apr 2, 2024 01:05
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Schwarzwald posted:This should be understood in the context of mid-century (and earlier) ideals to oasify the Sahara and Arabian Peninsula. There were a handful of pretty outrageous proposals, beyond more sensible environmental engineering plans. Of the “excavate an inland sea with nukes” variety? well why not posted:the delivery of “green paradise” really stuck with me Yes, as though he’s not entirely clear on what he’s picturing
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Apr 2, 2024 01:14
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I think approaching Dune as an environmental message is flawed; it's not pro-nature so much as anti industrial exploitation of nature. There's overlap there, but it's kinda like the difference between a work being feminist and being anti patriarchal.
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Apr 2, 2024 01:45
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Tree Bucket posted:Of the “excavate an inland sea with nukes” variety? That was one, but there were quite a few ludicrous plans. I don't remember the names of them or I'd double check what they all had going on, but I think damming the Mediterranean factored into a couple of them. I think the green revolution mostly obviated the desire for anything so drastic, not that there haven't been some impressive engineering projects.
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Apr 2, 2024 04:53
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Schwarzwald posted:damming the Mediterranean what
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Apr 2, 2024 05:03
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Tree Bucket posted:what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa
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Apr 2, 2024 05:05
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what
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Apr 2, 2024 05:10
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