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I mean, if we’re gonna nitpick, why were they keeping the super deadly nuclear reactor in the same building as the genetic super kid program, and why did the genes for the kid unlock all the doors, surely you don’t want your 6 year old science experiment being able to just wander around a nuclear power plant or just bugger off at will? The answer is that SNW isn’t that sort of show, shut up nerd. (I love this show, but tight plots and clever worldbuilding it ain’t)
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Jul 3, 2023 17:07
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:It's nowhere as bad as DISCO's. At least SNW has actual tangible proof that killing Space Hitler leads to a worse future. DISCO just saved Space Hitler because she looked like someone's mum. Also they did it not long after Space Hitler loving ate Saru.
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Jul 5, 2023 14:55
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Gangringo posted:I never watched Discovery. I tuned out after the first 2-3 episodes were all dark, harshly lit rooms with everyone yelling at each other. Occasionally Michael would blurt out  you are my family to random crew members you've never actually seen her have any sort of contact with and then burst into tears. The only bits of Disco worth watching are the episodes where they were backdoor-piloting SNW. The rest is just bafflingly awful and everything it was trying to be the Expanse did infinitely better. Actually the episode where Mudd goes on a time looping murder spree was pretty great as well.
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Jul 5, 2023 21:14
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Typical Pubbie posted:Ortegas wants to go on an away mission. This is the first interesting thing we've learned about her. Then the writers do another one of their weird SNW anti-arcs where: I think the theme they were going for was something about ‘discovering and loving who you are’. I think the arc itself in the context of that story fit and made sense. The bit that didn’t fit and made no sense is Ortega suddenly being bored piloting the Enterprise, when being a badass wisecracking pilot has basically been, like, her entire thing to date.
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Jul 7, 2023 13:41
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Picard was so baffingly bad my brain is still noticing stupid poo poo months after I watched it. Like, wait, didn't the Rikers have a kid daughter? What happened to her when they were kidnapped? Is she...still, just, like, hanging around the house in the woods that are so dangerous the house needs its own shields and phasers? Why wasn't she kidnapped as well? If I was an evil crazy shapeshifter with a shouting Borg monster skull for a right hand, and I wanted to force the Rikers to do stuff for me, kidnap the kid! Wait why did the Rikers move to a house somewhere so dangerous it needs it's own shields? That feels like a terrible place to raise kids. They've got a whole galaxy and they picked that? Didn't the dead son die like before S1? Hasn't a couple of years passed since? Did the Riker's, like, just notice? Like, canon poo poo is ignorable, I don't care if the Phasers suddenly can't do the thing that would resolve the plot that they could do in a random episode of DS9 or whatever. But characters entire arcs not making any sense just means you can't get invested in anything. On the plus side, Riker hit the ship with a rock once. That was cool I guess.
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Jul 12, 2023 22:24
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Spock and T'prings Vulcan hijink episodes are fast becoming one of my favourite parts of Trek. One thing this show gets that neither Picard or Disco seemed to is that you need these fun character episodes to get us invested so the big cinematic stuff means something. Just seeing the characters hang out in a bar, or going above and beyond to help a friend in need, makes them far more believable as our loveable space adventure family. And now If they have any character do the  STARFLEET IS MY FAMILLLY speech while poo poo blows up it means infinitely more than when Michael Burnham was doing it to people we've only ever seen her have 2 conversations with.The cut from the mothers ripping into Spock and Tpring to Pike's what the fuuuccckk face might be the single greatest edit in Trek history. Just a masterful piece of television directing. The casting director for this show deserves an Emmy. The chemistry of the cast is just incredible. They are all individually perfectly good actors, but combined I think this might actually be my favourite crew. I'd say It's got a ways to go before I'd put SNW on the same pillar as TNG or DS9 - there's still nothing that quite matches the ambition that shows had at their best, and I don't see SNW ever tackling some of their heavier themes those shows went for - but then they also had 7 seasons a piece and I'd put SNW S1+2 above either of those shows S1+2s. I love this show is basically where I'm going with this post.
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Jul 13, 2023 22:55
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Oh if your coming at SNW hoping that TNG is back, you are absolutely going to be disappointed. But I think it’s important to judge a show by what it is, not by it not being some completely different show, and SNW absolutely smashes it out the park at being going on fun hijinks with Captain loveable space dad and his crew of distractingly attractive dorks. If that’s not what you want, cool, but make your peace that this show isn’t trying to be what you want. I’d also love to see a return of slightly heavier, cleverer TNG style Trek, but trying to cram that into SNW would just create a tonal mess and one of SNWs strengths is that it’s a show that’s confident and clear about what it wants to be. That would need to be a different show altogether.
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Jul 19, 2023 17:57
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Kesper North posted:Listen, if we're going to talk about scientific realism in Star Trek, we're going to have to talk about And what did god need with a starship, anyway?
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Jul 19, 2023 23:22
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I did like how they took time to explain why this young Kirk is so different from Chris Pine's young Kirk. One had a hardass military father, the other went off the rails without it and became horny badboy Kirk. That subtext was there in the JJTrek films anyway, but it really spelled it out why the two were so different. None of the TOS characters are really like their SNW equivalents, but I'm fine with that. In universe, it can be explained by the age difference, but out of it part of why TOS sometimes comes across as so ridiculous is that you've got these serious Shakespearian stage actors giving serious Shakespearian stage performances to the cheap seats while in a closeup and holding a sparkly foam dick rock. Screen acting as a separate skill has evolved a lot since the 60s, it'd be nuts to try and do the same sort of performance Shatner gave at the time, but without doing that Kirk is always going to come across as a different guy. Hell, 80s movie Kirk often felt like a different character to TOS Kirk for the same reason. I shouted at the screen when they gave Uhura a loving gun, and again when Kirk let her wonder off. Tight plotting ain't this show's strong suit at the best of times, but this one went a touch too far to the point of taking me out of the whole story. My head cannon is that older La'an trained Worf at the academy, because one loving security officer for the out of his mind hallucinating violent psychopath? No forcefields? And then she turns up like 5 minutes later? What was she possibly doing that was more important than the violent saboteur just taken into custody?. Still, as ever, the cast made up for the sloppy writing, and the broad ideas about aliens communicating via memories and forcing people to face their grief is a great Trek framing device. I don't know why, but my initial feeling was it'd make a really great Voyager episode, for some reason? Also, Celia Gooding's Uhura is also quickly becoming one of my favourite characters on the show. Just a great performance.
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Jul 21, 2023 07:25
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Gonz posted:Was Prime George Kirk Sr. also the first officer of the Kelvin? Nero showing up is the moment the universes diverge, and George Kirk was already first officer, so that makes sense. If he’s still alive, it also means Captain Badass Robau is probably still kicking about. Do terrifying hardass Admiral Robau, trek.
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Jul 21, 2023 08:36
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Hang on, everyone except Tendi thought Starfleet discovered the portal so lol Pike lied, Orion’s cried. Episode was fun. I’m not as in love with LDS as some of this thread, I think if you take away the nostalgia bait references it’s an alright animated comedy with a few good character moments that’s not a patch on something like Futurama, but I did like live action Boimer and Marina, I thought Jack Quid nailed Boimers mannerisms and to be fair to Tawny Newsome Marina is so all over the screen she’s practically Bugs Bunny - there was no way to do her live. I liked this version of her, and the chemistry between the two is still there. It’s a shame there was no realistic way to do all 4 though. Tendi and Rutherford are the best bits of LDS.
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Jul 23, 2023 09:39
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Beeftweeter posted:i liked it a lot too but i guess not as much as some of the other posters itt. i'd hesitate to call it the best episode of SNW. it was funny, but not as funny as some of the other SNW eps and imo it definitely wasn't as funny as even most LDS eps. i thought the more emotional parts were moving but they didn't make me cry or anything Seconding this. It was a perfectly fine and fun little episode that thread the needle between the two shows as well as it could, but whoever it was saying this is the single best episode of Trek, ever, has me absolutely baffled. It's not even the best episode of Trek released in the last 4 days, last Thursdays was cleverer and had a stronger emotional core in every way. Nobody did a silly walk in that one though, I guess? There was a few nice jokes, a few fun interactions and a few nice emotional beats, it did what it set out to do, but I'm straight up lost at what the people saying it had them in tears or gawfing out loud with laughter saw that I didn't.
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Jul 24, 2023 08:48
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Khanstant posted:sucks for your assmar i guess. "i didnt have fun, laugh, or enjoy things as much as y'all did." discuss. sorry, i didn't mean to ruin your circle jerk, please, continue.
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Jul 24, 2023 19:28
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All the new live action shows are definitely going for heightened emotions throughout. It's not just that characters are crying all the time, although that is a thing, every emotional beat is a lot more bombastic than the older shows. Someone would have been sad in TNG, now they're crying. Someone would have smiled in DS9, now they're grinning from ear to ear and laughing loudly. I think it works in SNW because everything else about the show is similarly big, so it all comes together. It didn't fit with Disco because it's got a much smaller focus on one protagonists heroes journey, and spending 10 straight episodes with someone being largely miserable to the point of being outright unlikeable is just unpleasant. And in Picard's case, the plot was so stupid and all over the place you couldn't invest in the emotional stakes, because the emotional stakes made no loving sense and swung wildly episode to episode. Part of me does wish we could get something a bit closer to TNG one day, with a bit more subtlety and leaning more into clever sci-fi plots over big emotional moments, but I don't think it's fair to judge SNW for not being something that's a completely different show trying to do completely different things, especially when it's largely knocking it out the park at what it is trying to do.
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Jul 25, 2023 09:00
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LinkesAuge posted:stuff about swearing I mean, if you want to follow this thought to it's natural conclusion, everyone should be speaking as differently from us today as we do from Shakespearian English. We should be having to really focus to understand anything any of them are saying. If your going to accept that they talk in 20/21st century English, that's going to include any swearing. We're hearing everyone talk through universal translators for the most part anyway. Just headcannon that they said a future space swear word that translates to 'gently caress'. Anyway, Tilly saying 'gently caress' wasn't bad because she said a swear word, it was dumb because of how the show drew so much attention to it. You could of edited the sound of a loving record scratching over the top of that scene and it would have fit. It was so clunky and weird and it came across like a 9 year old dropping an F bomb then looking nervously around to see if he got away with it. Like so much of Disco, it was just odd and weird and took you out of the show. Admiral Sheer loving Hubris Jean Luc Shut The gently caress Up meanwhile was one of the few bits of Picard I thought really worked, because it really sold quite how much Picard was misjudging his standing with her and how hosed off she was with him. I felt my heart sink in that moment, making it one of the few scenes that actually made me feel an emotion beyond baffled bewilderment. It's a shame they couldn't get Kate Mulgrew in the end for that scene to really underscore that this wasn't just some rear end in a top hat admiral feeling that way, but it still worked.
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Jul 27, 2023 09:23
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I'm going to drat Babs Olusanmokun with praise. I've never quite felt M'benga really fit into this show. He's giving a really great, subtle, nuanced performance that a lot of the time feels a bit out of place when everyone else is running around just chewing every bit of scenery they can get their teeth into without a second thought. Dude can tell a story with just his eyes, which you lose when no-one is paying attention to them. But an episode like this where it's focused on him, holy gently caress was he great. Like, just really, straight up, one of the best performances in the show ever incredible. Jess Bush held her end up too, but she fits more into the shows 'regular' tone more. And the guy who played the Klingon ambassador, who's one of those 'that guy' voices I couldn't quite place was also really great. I know a lot of this thread seemed to think Boimer doing a funny walk was the height of Trek, but the two scenes with M'benga and the ambassador sparring are some of the best TV I think Trek has done since DS9 ended. Two characters with deep but conflicting emotional journeys meet. No easy outcomes. No one dimensional bad guys. The ambassador did deserve what he got, but similarly the guy we met at this time and place didn't, and M'benga who just wants to be a doctor similarly shouldn't have been the one to do it, but he's also absolutely was that guy....M'benga killed a good man, but he was absolutely justified?. Textbook fantastic drama. It's a tough episode to really rate. Like, as a Star Trek episode, it doesn't have a nice bow and moral message to wrap it up because how the hell can something like this, like Chapel says war is something that just sticks with you forever so it felt like a bit of a bummer at the end. Trek as a format is not great for this sort of story, and I love that they weren't scared to deviate from what this show otherwise is to tell this particular story. Sloppy writing nickpick though: how the gently caress is M'benga, a man who no-one is questioning just loving stabbed an ambassador to death with a knife just walking free, because one of his closes friends said the other guy started it? That poo poo doesn't' fly for a playground fight, let alone a murder. Like, what the gently caress? No matter what actually happened in the fight, dude murdered someone with a knife. You get arrested and a big ol' trial for that, even if the jury eventually acquits you.
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Jul 27, 2023 19:01
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Jul 28, 2023 20:51
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The problem with doing war in Trek is that any sort of battle actually makes zero sense in a world where you have antimatter. There should be no such thing as a 'soldier', or a 'battle'. If you wanted to remove your opponent from a planet, just fling an unmanned shuttle at warp at it and everyone immediately dies. Or, say, they didn't want to kill everything. It's really important to conquer a planet with people alive instead of flinging shuttles at it until it breaks. Cool. You want to kill the general, and you know where he is, and you have a magic device that can transport things? Transport a bomb into his head. There. Done. Or, transport his head. Not the rest of him. Just the head. No need for M'benga to take super serum and turn into a ninja when you've got a transporter sitting right there. Hell, have some fun with it. Transport a giant anvil with the word 'Acme' scrawled on it above him while he sleeps. Keep transporting every chair out from under him until he dies of exhaustion. Between antimatter and a transporter you are basically a god. But people being instantly vaporised by warp powered drone strikes doesn't make for compelling TV so we get WW2 with red laser bullets instead.
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Jul 28, 2023 23:42
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Sad King Billy posted:Someone I know gave Picard a 5 star review on Facebook. ‘Secret Borg plot to assimilate Picard’s balls.’
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Jul 31, 2023 11:56
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lol wtf did I just watch. Eh, not really my thing, but it was fun enough, and it's really something that the show can go from M'bengas war trauma straight to this, and it not feel like the show is just broken. ....Pike's girlfriend is off to get murdered by the Gorn, ain't she.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:44
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I did enjoy M'benga turning to camera, announcing that he doesn't sing, then just loving off for most of the episode.
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Aug 3, 2023 21:43
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What’s weird is that judged as an episode of Trek, it’s bad, and judged as a musical it’s bad, but combined its somehow it’s better than the sum of all its parts. I think if you compare it to Once More with Feeling, Buffy had deeper and more established characters in the middle of an arc that was just a lot heavier, to the point of being borderline actively miserable. It felt cathartic after 6 episodes of PTSD dead-inside Buffy. SNWs characters just aren’t as deep, and we don’t know them as well - it just doesn’t hit home as much doing this in a Season 2. Still, fun show, and it’s not like SNW is going to get 100 episodes to lead up to something like this.
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Aug 4, 2023 08:40
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I'm guessing comms officer also has a wildly different meaning when your job is to make first contact with transdimensional customer service call centre workers made out of sentient gas.
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Aug 5, 2023 21:27
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There's practical reasons why you can't really do a 26 episode season of something like Trek as well. Those old shows being transmitted in SD and viewed on 21' garbage CRTs hid a lot of flaws in the sets. And expectations are higher - you can't just put a few styrofoam rocks and a big piece of orange paper up and call it a planet in 2023. That's why most pop culture shows that do go for longer seasons still tend to be set in present day The second you have to render two space ships in 4k or put someone in front of a green screen or LED wall to be on a CGI'd alien planet, your per episode budget shoots through the roof and the 26 episode seasons is out. And the economics of doing long seasons make a lot more sense if your way of making money is 4 ad breaks on a syndicated cable channel than they do making a show for a streaming service, where you constantly want a constant stream of new shows to try and hook new subscribers - the 'everything on Netflix goes for 2 seasons' effect. Not that the economics of the new Trek shows are working out particularly well for Paramount anyway, but unless everyone cancels their streaming services and goes back to paying £100 /month to watch things on cable with ad breaks there's no way a TNG type show gets made.
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Aug 6, 2023 06:39
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William Shatner is a big enough rear end in a top hat that someone raised $45m to make an entire film about what an rear end in a top hat he is.
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Aug 12, 2023 22:36
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Dr.Radical posted:This seems like a bigger strike against whoever raised the money. You could have done so many better things with such a huge amount of money but you chose to make a movie about how William Shatner is a big meanie? Alright I guess. e 
DavidCameronsPig fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Aug 13, 2023 |
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Aug 13, 2023 22:30
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Gwaihir posted:Claiming that old trek wasn't a victim of "why don't they simply x" is absolutely delusional lol. A surprising amount of Trek problems are actually in universe solvable by walking up to either a holodeck arch or a replicator and saying 'Computer. Bee's'.
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Aug 19, 2023 19:25
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some kinda jackal posted:They're not going to get to a Costco from Pinewood for $94. The colony is going to be a Canadian Tire because that's just down the street. It'll all still be shot on the big LED screen but if you look closely you can see Getty Image watermarks on everything. The title sequence is replaced with a screenshot of YouTube with a badly spelled 'FAIR USE No Copywriter infringement intended!' message, and the credit sequence is a list of links to various free After Effect Template websites. All shots of Pike are of the back of his suspiciously still head, and his voice sounds weirdly robotic. Someone on this thread will try to claim that none of that matters and it's the best Star Trek has ever been.
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Aug 28, 2023 09:39
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Der Kyhe posted:PIC S1 is at least, as some people have pointed out, something that could by editing and overdubbing be made into OK 5-episode limited series or one average 3-hour TNG movie. It was made before Covid, the stupid space tentacle episode was put out just as lockdowns started to hit, so the SFX would have been finished at the latest when Covid was just this weird rumour from China, and the words 'robot tentacle monster' would have been written months before. I can forgive S2 to an extent because they really did have to work around the one-two punches of Covid and having to try and not accidently murder Patrick Stewart. S1 doesn't get a pass. They genuinely through another portal to a tentacle monster dimension would be cool.
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Aug 30, 2023 20:28
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T.C. posted:Okay, so humpbacks going extinct is an integral part of the story of Star Trek 4. So does that mean that the current increases in humpback population are the result of Romulan time fuckery and eventually they'll all get destroyed as an additional battle front in whatever the combined WWIII/Eugenics War thingy must be now. One day they'll gently caress with the wrong yacht, and it will mean war.
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Sep 10, 2023 22:19
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There was plenty good stuff in Picard, it’s amazing how much less than the sum of its parts it ended up being. Hey remember how Wesley Crusher ended up being a loving Time Lord for no reason?
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Sep 17, 2023 16:59
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The vague joke about Worf and the Ent E was one of the two good things in Picard (Riker flinging a rock being the other one). Don't take it away from them it's their whole legacy.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:39
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For all it's many many many many many problems, the cast in Picard was for the most part pretty decent. Only standout bad performances were the Romulan incest twins, and to be fair, 'this is your sister, you want to hatefuck her' isn't exactly the easiest direction for an actor to run with.
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Nov 9, 2023 21:57
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They were very obviously backdoor piloting SNW in that Disco season. You don't make an entire Enterprise bridge for like 5 minutes of run time, or bring in Rebecca Romijn to eat a Hamburger and leave, unless your intending to follow up on it.
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Nov 25, 2023 08:20
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Anyone who likes Disco is a deviant and should be on some sort of watchlist. Except that episode where Mudd goes on a gleeful Groundhog Day murder spree, that one ruled.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:15
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I was ambivalent about the musical episode, it was fun enough but I'll probably never rewatch it, but swinging from Those Old Scientists to Mbenga's war PTSD and back to musical hijinks again sure was a choice. One of the things I love most about SNW is how the show can often get away with some pretty wild tonal shifts and be a wildly different show episode to episode, but man that was pushing it.
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Dec 6, 2023 22:21
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Disco is bafflingly bad. The sfx suck, the set design sucks, the story sucks, the acting largely sucks (they somehow managed to get bad performances out of Michelle loving Yeoh!?), and it’s centred on Michael ‘the most boring character in Trek history’ Burnham. The only good bit was the first part of S2, and they took those bits and made a whole better show out of it. Disco was supposed to be, conceptually, ‘cinematic star trek’. That’s why everything ends with dumb Karate fights or portals to monster dimensions. It’s JJtrek: the TV show. That format works when you’ve only got 2 hours and the baddie is just the obstacle the goodie needs to overcome, usually by overcoming a character flaw in themselves, but it can’t sustain 8 hours of television. It’s just conceptually bankrupt. Execution aside, there’s a universe where Picard could be a good show. Hell, it is, until every season flies off the rails and then keeps going for another 6 episodes. Disco can’t ever be a good show. The format is just broken, the same way a lot of the MCU shows are. It’s TV, made by filmmakers, who don’t understand the difference.
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Dec 7, 2023 11:14
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I disagree with most of this, but you're generally right about the format. I think the cast are more than capable of carrying a more episodic format, but can't elevate the material enough to make the ongoing arcs actually work. I think that’s fair. I still think the cast largely sucks, but that’s only based on the evidence of this show - I haven’t seen most of them in anything else and given this show also managed to get a bad performance out of Michelle Yeoh of all people there’s good reasons to doubt how much that’s on the actors.
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Dec 8, 2023 00:59
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maybeadracula posted:Yeah her character or acting aren't the problem Eh. Her character is an incredibly one note panto character and Michelle Yeoh isn’t exactly known for that big play-for-the-stalls type of acting. It’s showing how much better Jason Isaac’s, who spent a lot of his career in British theatre, was when he revealed to be evil and basically the same character. She’s just miscast and has nothing to work with is all. Actually, I suspect she was cast with prime Georgou in mind, and they hadn’t even come up with the Emperor at the time. Disco is after all a show that wears its production problems very much on its sleeve.
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Dec 8, 2023 09:41
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If you're going to do the cinematic protagonist-type story, there's a structure that writers normally follow to make it interesting, and big part of that structure is that usually the protagonist has to overcome some personal limitation in order to win. Marty Mcfly has time travelled, but what he really has to do is get over his insecurities and stop being so easily baited by being called chicken if he wants to stop being a bit of a loser like his dad. Woody has to get over his jealousy of Buzz Lightyear if he wants to get home. Even JJTrek Kirk, hardly the most deeply written character in cinematic history, needs to stop being so brash and impulsive and angry about his dead Dad if he wants to captain the Enterprise. And so on. Biff or Nero can be one dimensional bad guys because they are just there to physically manifest the emotional journey the character is going through. There's plenty of protagonists that don't follow that structure, especially in TV. Kirk being a good example, but in TOS they use the other characters to be the flawed ones. Spock is overly logical, Bones is overly emotional, Kirk is the happy medium. The character flaw is either them, or it's the guest star of the weeks story. There's still the journey of overcoming an emotional limitation, even if Kirk is overcoming someone else's limitation. Lot's of TV shows use that structure, because it gives you more variety to tell more stories week by week and it can be tricky to pull off in the more limited run time of a film. By comparison, Michael's thing at the start is, uh.....she's emotionally distant and needs to learn to connect? She need to assimilate better into human culture after being raised on Vulcan? That's a questionable one. There's an interesting character in there for a different show, but Disco doesn't explore it in any sort of nuance or depth - it's more interested in explosions and high drama than exploring the nuances of being raised in a multi-cultural family as the child of an immigrant. So you end up with an emotional arc that has nothing to do with the actual plot of the show. That's why the constant crying stands out - because she just goes from competent but distant to YOU ARE MY FAMIIIILLLYYYY almost immediately and then back again for seemingly nothing that has anything to do with what is happening. The writers want that dramatic cinematic arc moment, but they don't do anything to get her there. And it's definitely a protagonist-structured show. Tilly and Saru aren't Bones and Spock-style aspects of her personality. And a protagonist-led show with no real depth or journey for the protagonist is just boring as gently caress to watch. You can get maybe a 2 hour film out of a character that thin, maybe, if you rely on spectacle to carry you through. But it falls apart completely once you get to hour number 20. Disco can't ever be good without some radical retooling. Its structure is just fundamentally broken.
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Dec 9, 2023 07:51
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