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Shumagorath posted:Some part of me wonders if the party doesn’t see it as deliberate revenge for flooding China with opium. Wrong country. Although some back benchers are putting the blame of fake postage stamps on the CCP. 
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Apr 17, 2024 17:31
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Big rear end On Fire posted:I figured they just turned a blind eye to the companies manufacturing the stuff. Part of the issue is that these are pretty basic precursors and there’s not a whole lot you can do besides ban the import without permits of ALL CHEMICALS including dangerous ones like DHMO to actually stop anyone from making Fentanyl
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Apr 17, 2024 18:24
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Opium flooding claim always seems suspect to me. China had such immense population, how was pre-green revolution agriculture and early 19th century maritime trade suppose to produce and ship enough opium to be more than a blip? Opium export from India also increased many folds after the Opium War, meaning a much smaller amount of opium trade apparently already devastated Chinese society? Also that poo poo was expensive, how could the 95% subsistence farmer portion of the population afford it? Sounds like only urbanites and fail sons of landowners can be affected (of course we often have disproportional amount of sources from the literal class). Then there was also the long history of domestic opium cultivation and use in China itself, and the Warlord era was infamous for opium cultivation. Feels like it's a *100-years of humiliation* narrative blowing the importance the opium trade way out of proportion (as a harmful drug vs catalyst to the event marking the definitive decline of China against colonial powers). THAT SAID, I think it's still a stretch to blame China for opioid epidemic in the US. From the reporting I've read so far it feels more like total apathy of Chinese government to regulate and enforce export (often there is also no agreement to control these substance, Chinese chemical company is just selling them to anyone and not asking many questions) than some nefarious plot as the evidence of this committee seems mostly consist of public available information.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:12
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total trade was 40,000 chests, or 2800 tons, p/a, by 1840 they hadn't had the green revolution yet, but they knew how to farm stuff by 1840...
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Apr 17, 2024 19:17
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The British definitely sold lots of opium, but the modern narrative is always that the British were solely responsible and introduced China to the scourge of drugs, when in reality opium had been grown and used in China for many centuries just like everywhere else. There had been an explosion in its use as a recreational drug because the price had come way down so it was widely available, but that was already a thing before the British opium trade--they were exploiting a pre-existing market, not creating one. The majority of opium in China came from Sichuan.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:23
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buh buh how could anyone farm 1800? without tractor??!!
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Apr 17, 2024 20:25
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I personally have a hard time giving the PRC the benefit of the doubt over the precursor story being an innocent side effect of being a chemical exporter, particularly as it's been a high level diplomatic topic between the US and China. Chinese industry has a solid track record of profits above all while the government tends to draw a line under this that goes something like as long as those negatively affected are foreigners. Still the demand is a US problem and I'm biased in general when it comes to topics like this. Unrelated the headlines today say Biden admin wants tariffs raised on Chinese steel and AL.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:30
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I buy that they just don't give a poo poo. The idea of it being some sort of long game revenge for the Opium Wars smells like the same kind of orientalist nonsense like the "China thinks in decades and centuries" stuff, I'm not going for that one.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:40
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Grand Fromage posted:I buy that they just don't give a poo poo. The idea of it being some sort of long game revenge for the Opium Wars smells like the same kind of orientalist nonsense like the "China thinks in decades and centuries" stuff, I'm not going for that one.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:47
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Yes, that's from a post I read that attempts to do the math on how much does 2800 tons annually (or whatever year's number you take) means. The conclusion is the import level is only enough for like tens of thousands addicts (as narrowly defined by the author because there's no one to take comprehensive survey of people's drug habit in 1840 like how often the drug is taken and dosage) vs the population of ~450 million Chinese population at the time and domestically produced opium soon overtakes import.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:47
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Shumagorath posted:I don’t think it’s what you’re describing so much as low-effort “fair’s fair / being a boat anchor on north american public health is cool and good”. Yeah, I can't imagine it's some nefarious plot handed down from the ghost of Mao, but "why should we help the west with their opiate problem, gently caress 'em" seems plausible.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:57
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Grand Fromage posted:I buy that they just don't give a poo poo. The idea of it being some sort of long game revenge for the Opium Wars smells like the same kind of orientalist nonsense like the "China thinks in decades and centuries" stuff, I'm not going for that one. Yeah it seems like they don’t give a poo poo about it.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:06
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Whilst you can make the argument that China should maybe doing more to clamp down on things like precursors to devastating drugs, this is the same country that happily enabled a vast bear bile farming industry despite there being a huge oversupply of something that isn’t proven to have any benefit. You could easily see this being about purely not giving a poo poo.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:06
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code:
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Apr 17, 2024 21:14
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Speaking of that it's funny how hard the Chinese government is pushing back against a possible TikTok ban.quote:The Chinese Embassy has held meetings with congressional staff to lobby against the legislation that would force a sale of TikTok, according to two of the Capitol Hill staffers. Rich.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:38
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Cabal Ties posted:Whilst you can make the argument that China should maybe doing more to clamp down on things like precursors to devastating drugs, this is the same country that happily enabled a vast bear bile farming industry despite there being a huge oversupply of something that isn’t proven to have any benefit. My understanding is that China actually does clamp down on precursors quite emphatically ... in Chinese markets. They have no issue with those companies exporting these drugs (which aren't used for anything other than fentanyl) as long as they don't sell in China. Reuters posted:China continues to provide subsidies in the form of value-added tax rebates to its companies that manufacture fentanyl analogues, precursors and other synthetic narcotics, so long as they sell them outside of China, the House of Representatives' select committee on China said in a report. "The PRC (People's Republic of China) scheduled all fentanyl analogues as controlled substances in 2019, meaning that it currently subsidizes the export of drugs that are illegal under both U.S. and PRC law," the report said, adding that some of the substances "have no known legal use worldwide."
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Apr 17, 2024 22:08
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Big rear end On Fire posted:Speaking of that it's funny how hard the Chinese government is pushing back against a possible TikTok ban. hmm wonder why this Singapore company wouldn't provide their valuable service to Hong Kong 
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Apr 17, 2024 22:12
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Cabal Ties posted:Whilst you can make the argument that China should maybe doing more to clamp down on things like precursors to devastating drugs, this is the same country that happily enabled a vast bear bile farming industry despite there being a huge oversupply of something that isn’t proven to have any benefit. It does actually have a benefit! ...as it turns out, so they (western medicine) produced a synthetic version thereof that requires no actual bears to be harmed. It's called ursodiol, I take it for my chronic liver and gall bladder issues. So it somehow manages to be both less and more pointless/cruel than rhino horn/tiger dong. Aoi fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 22:12
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Is this not exactly what the CIA whined about decades ago - the USSR is promoting hard drugs to undermine upstanding patriots!!!!
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Apr 17, 2024 22:51
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I stand corrected, tho my point still stands
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Apr 17, 2024 23:34
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Kaal posted:My understanding is that China actually does clamp down on precursors quite emphatically ... in Chinese markets. They have no issue with those companies exporting these drugs (which aren't used for anything other than fentanyl) as long as they don't sell in China. are the tax rebates for selling fent overseas? cause it doesn't specifically say that, it just says the companies get tax breaks. which all pharma companies do
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Apr 17, 2024 23:53
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Cactus Ghost posted:are the tax rebates for selling fent overseas? cause it doesn't specifically say that, it just says the companies get tax breaks. which all pharma companies do The Reuters article continues: quote:The report cited data from the Chinese government's State Taxation Administration website, which listed certain chemicals for rebates up to 13%. It additionally currently subsidizes two fentanyl precursors used by drug cartels - NPP and ANPP, it said.”
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Apr 18, 2024 00:40
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Big rear end On Fire posted:Speaking of that it's funny how hard the Chinese government is pushing back against a possible TikTok ban. It is absolutely impossible for China not to take credit for something. Just can't be done no matter how beneficial it would be to them.
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Apr 18, 2024 00:57
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Big rear end On Fire posted:I figured they just turned a blind eye to the companies manufacturing the stuff. the only things reuters has listed as actually subsidized are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-ANPP and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Phenethyl-4-piperidinone, which are precursors to fentanyl (and presumably analogues), but regular fentanyl is a legal (if scheduled) drug frequently used in clinical settings, and China has a legitimate interest in fostering a domestic pharmaceutical industry the reps are being willfully ignorant of how pharmaceuticals are manufactured and conflating the legitimate precursors with the grey market operations for CHYNA political points the grey market operations can and do attract the eye of sauron if they sell banned poo poo. you don't exactly see methoxetamine coming out of there anymore. analogues are a complicated space even in light of blanket bans, because there's usually not a formal scientific definition of one. laws usually play whack-a-mole with specific chemicals as they become prominent on the scene china has cut down on precursor sales to a degree, in that you used to be able and go get poo poo off alibaba in bulk. per hamilton morris that's no longer an option, but he was able to contact one of the companies formerly listing things on alibaba and they were happy to sell it still offsite. that was for buproprion precursors though, which aren't as much law enforcement concern. Qtotonibudinibudet fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 02:47
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Lol an alibaba ad tried to sell me literal meth, not the precuror just straight up pure stuff
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Apr 18, 2024 03:44
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Tunicate posted:Lol an alibaba ad tried to sell me literal meth, not the precuror just straight up pure stuff So what was the stuff you actually received?
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Apr 18, 2024 03:49
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man this makes me realise i've slept on the pharmaceuticals section of the canton fair
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Apr 18, 2024 04:03
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One of my friends would regularly find drugs or ingredients to easily make drugs on Taobao. Dunno if that's been cracked down on at all.
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Apr 18, 2024 04:24
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my entire reason for ultimately posting in this thread was all the business i did in china and if it's anything like when i was in the game it's something of a stupid mix of all of the above posters' hunches. i'll scattershot this as quick as i can, apologies if i misattribute someone's statement but i'm not interested in doing a serious effortpost since everyone's already clear that this is mostly a political game. 1) CCP has an interest in a homegrown pharma industry this is almost certainly why those rebates exist to begin with, autarky has always been something the CCP likes and not-created-here is the entire reason so much IP theft has happened/continues to happen. there's about a 99% chance that the rebate in question isn't specifically for those precursors, and instead is some more vague and broadly worded "useful pharmaceutical chemicals" break that the deeply arbitrary tax authority is choosing to interpret that way for now. chinese companies tend to be very clear on these tax loopholes and are ruthless in exploiting them. when i was importing small electronics, one of the only things i could rely on my chinese factories for was telling me how to list my import manifests - they would ALWAYS know exactly the codes to use to get around tariffs and taxes, so they could deliver me the lowest price (for a predictably lovely product). 2) CCP cares more about what happens in the country and doesn't give a poo poo as long as it leaves guaranteed true. this threads through every aspect of chinese law and chinese business practices. you could be making the abovementioned meth two blocks away from a police station and as long as you were able to prove that every last gram of it left on a freighter there's a 0% chance anyone would bust you for it. if it doesn't happen to Han people, it does not matter. 3) this isn't a long game revenge play yea, no way. the CCP can't remember what it was up to a few years ago in many cases, there's so much "we have always been at war with eurasia" doublethink it's insane. this is just a way to make money in a world where people are progressively going to china for less and less stuff. it'll stop when other countries force it to stop somehow, until then it's just a way to get cash in. 4) ultimately this is a US problem 100% and most of the problem is older generations anyway. i'd have to go hunting for it again but there were a bunch of studies around 2015-2018 that basically pointed out that boomers have used way more drugs than any generation cohort either before or after and it's not a new phenomenon. they used the most LSD in the 70s, the most meth in the 80s, and the most opium every decade thereafter. it should come as no surprise that the pack of ancient lichs in the US congress care a lot about this drug epidemic and not things like crumbling infrastructure, the out of control state of housing, the huge spike in difficulty for younger generations getting actual careers rather than a lovely chain of gigs, and all the other basic crap governments are supposed to care about. the drug epidemic is the only thing that's affecting their crusty-rear end age cohort. by no means is opioid abuse going to go away, ever, but nobody should be surprised as the problem progressively resolves itself without the government doing basically anything. doctors are going to keep getting more and more reluctant to give out opioids because of the buzz and the life long drug customers are going to continue to die of old age. nothing will happen at any federal or state level but the problem will magically disappear anyway. politicians will nonetheless claim credit for being tough on the topic because they introduced motions that didn't go anywhere. so it goes.
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Apr 18, 2024 04:25
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I’m with you on a lot of that, but the average fentanyl user who ODs is 37. It’ll be a long time before old age makes an impact on consumer habits at large. https://www.dea.gov/press-releases/2020/08/06/alarming-spike-fentanyl-related-overdose-deaths-leads-officials-issue
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Apr 18, 2024 04:35
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that's only san diego county, i was speaking nationally i can't say i'm surprised that one of the largest staging areas for illegal opioid importation has just a general opioid problem tho.
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Apr 18, 2024 04:44
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Apr 18, 2024 19:05
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Xincos
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Apr 18, 2024 20:05
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i havent seen pants that baggy since 2002
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Apr 18, 2024 21:02
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Please Kimmer Don't Hurt 'Em
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Apr 18, 2024 21:41
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everybody having a wonderful time
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Apr 18, 2024 21:44
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north korea attempts to do autarky in everything, including clothing. they make this fiber called vinylon from coal (which they have in large quantities), calling it juche-fiber it is absolute dogshit
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Apr 18, 2024 21:44
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bob dobbs is dead posted:north korea attempts to do autarky in everything, including clothing. they make this fiber called vinylon from coal (which they have in large quantities), calling it juche-fiber Today I learned that Fjällräven's Kånken backbags, which cost hundred euros on average and are really popular among kids here, are made from Juche fiber. No wonder that Scandinavian teens are so woke! 
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Apr 19, 2024 09:19
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I mean presumably not the same cloth that was actually made in NK? 
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Apr 19, 2024 09:21
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Cactus Ghost posted:i havent seen pants that baggy since 2002 i would have said 2020, and probably soon again in 2025
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Apr 19, 2024 09:40
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