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"We have to find a way to dejew Bernie so that we can Corbyn the hell out of him"
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Feb 25, 2020 23:31
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Well I guess you've all learned what we learned in the UK: The boomers want to murder us. They don't care and they have no empathy; They are an evil generation. You can't fix this with their owned democratic system because it exists for them, not for anyone else. Sorry, and I know it's going to be a long, bloody struggle when humanity needs to be focused on climate change, but Marx was right: It's going to take revolution.
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Mar 4, 2020 02:00
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Kirios posted:I think we're legitimately hosed. What's the path forward at this point? Civil disobedience. Just like every other group ever won anything from anyone.
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Mar 4, 2020 02:26
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Vernii posted:Yep. Peaceful civil disobedience only works in a carrot/stick approach with an armed group for the authorities to fear if they don't make good, otherwise they can just freely ignore the peaceful group's demands and wait them out. This is why "violence is never acceptable" gets constantly promoted and the 'stick' side of the equation gets demonized. Yup. Even votes for women required bombs. If non-boomers want a future, then it will need to be fought for.
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Mar 4, 2020 02:38
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Taffer posted:He has extremely detailed plans that cover all of this. You should go read them. Costing plans didn't work for Corbz and it won't work for Bernie or any leftist. The whole "who pays for this" is a trap played by the liberals to maintain the grand illusion of capitalist realism. National economies simply do not work in a transactional "household economy" way otherwise how would tax cuts ever be justifiable, even under Chicago economics?
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Mar 6, 2020 01:58
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nivdes posted:And every time his plans are analyzed by nonpartisan think tanks, it’s clear that his proposals do not create enough revenue to cover the massive increase in spending. There is no such thing as a nonpartisan think tank.
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Mar 6, 2020 01:59
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mr whistler posted:MMT is for people that don't want to pay for anything and believe in free money for everything. It's a Marxist fantasy. No it isn't. It's an evolution of Chartalism, which states that money is not a commodity. In what way are you claiming it fits into a Marxist economic framework?
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Mar 6, 2020 02:31
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predicto posted:I only took a few econ classes at the undergraduate level and I am not personally qualified to speak on the validity of MMT theory, but it is very telling to me that virtually every single prominent mainstream economist, whether Chicago School or Keynesian or whatever, appears to thinks that it is a bunch of unworkable nonsense that ignores how governments work, how political pressures affect economic decisions, how being one nation in a world of somewhat competing nations affects things, etc. Maybe all the mainstream economist are wrong, but they argue about everything else and seem remarkably united on this one question. Firstly, I'd be extremely hesitant to describe any economist as "mainstream" given how interlinked economics and politics has always been. Secondly it doesn't allow unlimited spending: MMT basically says that since a government can create and destroy money, it can pay for goods by creating money, which will produce inflation. Conversely, it can produce deflation by destroying money, via taxation (or bond issuance, although this has the obvious side-effect of guaranteeing future inflation in the form of coupons and redemption). Basically, money is the legal medium through which a government can direct economic activity, with inflation and deflation being the effect on the market participants. If a government spent 1.5Tn then it would be equivalent to a wealth tax, since it would cause inflation. Taxation would would then offset this (i.e. deflation would be a handout proportional to wealth). A corollary would be that income tax is intrinsically regressive and only wealth taxation is equivalent to an equivalent reversion of the original inflationary effect. It definitely does not allow for unlimited spending, since you're always implicitly taxing wealth at a relative rate, although, as you note, much like Austrian school weirdos, proponents tend to get a little over-excited about it all. mr whistler posted:MMT says inflation is basically irrelevant when you print as much money as you want. No it doesn't. It says that printing money causes inflation. It doesn't make any further statements about the relevance of that inflation.
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Mar 6, 2020 02:55
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predicto posted:This is the answer. Not MMT. Printing money, and causing inflation, as per MMT, would be equivalent to a flat wealth tax. Just FYI I'm not hugely into MMT but there seem to be a lot of misconceptions around it, with a lot of strawmen being chucked about. predicto posted:that is exactly what MMT is all about. Yes, you are correct here. But since that results in, in effect, a wealth tax, isn't that what you want anyway? Active Quasar fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Mar 6, 2020 |
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Mar 6, 2020 03:03
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joepinetree posted:Now, let's say that the government wants to pay for every student who currently goes to college. Well, the money that pays for college for people is already out there. Credit, in the form of student loans, already contribute to the money supply. Government taking over that side of the economy, even while issuing money to pay for it, wouldn't be inflationary, because the money being issued is simply taking over private credit. It's essentially taking credit that individuals owe to lenders and making it the government owing to bond buyers. Bond issuance, whilst not creating immediate inflation (under MMT), guarantees future inflation in the form of coupons and redemption. This has to be time-discounted to the present. However, you now have a much larger proportion of the money supply circulating (in the form of a lot of people no longer transferring their income directly into stagnant private pools) so you create economic activity and growth, which produces deflation. It becomes zero-sum when the value of the growth equals the bond issuance at the time of redemption (plus interim coupons). It probably would be a net positive but I don't have data to hand at the minute.
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Mar 6, 2020 03:16
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predicto posted:That is the theory, yes. Printing large amounts of money would solve the current problem of massively concentrated wealth, which has resulted in a stagnant economy and declining material conditions for millions of people. Printing money and then spending it on common goods would be equivalent to wealth distribution. That seems to be what is urgently required if the current crisis of capitalism is to be prevented from devolving into the same horrors of the last crisis almost a century ago. But MMT doesn't say you should "print as much money as you like". It just says government spending crates inflation and taxation reverses that inflation. That's all. You're ascribing a lot of left-field extrapolation to a fairly simple perspective on money as a legal medium rather than as a commodity (i.e. chartalism).
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Mar 6, 2020 03:24
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mr whistler posted:Just print as much money as Zimbabwe, destroy the evil money holders and watch the economy grow! If your response to someone taking the time out to explain an economic theory to you is this level of bad-faith posting, then there seems little point in bothering. "Don't be a dick" doesn't derive from any school of economics but seems like an appropriate message at this time. mr whistler posted:MMT says you don't have to tax the rich, you can just have inflation without any negative economic consequences. No it doesn't and this has been explained several times to you now. Active Quasar fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Mar 6, 2020 |
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Mar 6, 2020 03:32
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nivdes posted:Yeah no the markets are going to definitely react very differently to the election of a "business-as-usual" Democrat vs. a "well see it's democratic socialism" outsider with a long history of hostility to business The market is a complete illusion at this point and anybody who works in the financial industry knows it has to, and will, come crashing down no matter what. It's been pumped to high heavens with QE and even the repo market is stumbling now. When it DOES come crashing down, you'd better hope that there's someone who's willing to do actual fiscal stimulus because monetary policy has been utterly wrecked as a tool by a decade of kick-the-can cheap debt.
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Mar 6, 2020 12:07
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Christ on a unicycle. The do-nothing Dems are really rallying behind Sleepy Joe Malarkey. How many times are liberals going to have to get utterly obliterated before they admit their "centrism" lie simply doesn't wash anymore. And then they wonder how the far right happens.
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Mar 6, 2020 19:01
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Taerkar posted:And of course while doing such they expect the actual progressives and leftists to keep voting for them anyways. "We'll only gas half the Jews(/insert other minority) and socialists, why won't you vote for the lesser eeeeviillll"
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Mar 6, 2020 19:07
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nivdes posted:it isn't about an excuse, it's about not wanting to even be associated with those people by supporting the same candidate Classic gimmick here.
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Mar 6, 2020 19:28
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nivdes posted:Gorsuch and Kavanaugh sit on the Supreme Court precisely because a bunch of people sat out the 2016 election "on principle", so blame them "Well clearly the unwashed plebs deserve their misery because they refused to vote to further enrich our capitalists and let the other capitalists in. Don't they know our whips are lavender scented?" Maybe offering the working classes actual material progress could be a solution rather than a choice between a poo poo sandwich and a poo poo sandwich with a (half) cherry on top.
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Mar 6, 2020 19:40
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nivdes posted:Winning elections, for one. Maybe should have tried that in 2016 then.
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Mar 6, 2020 19:45
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nivdes posted:Bernie can't even win primaries yet you expect him to win the Presidency and the majorities in both chambers of Congress that he would need for any of his policies to have a chance of seeing the light of day. You do realize that Trump is going to absolutely destroy Biden right? The man is an incoherent wreck with a dreadful record who has already totally alienated Latinx and Asian voters. Trump and his compliant media will pick him apart in seconds. CNN giving him the cotton wool treatment won't matter for toffee. Every "Independent" I know thinks that Biden and Bernie are both communists so good luck with that mythical swing voter as well.
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Mar 6, 2020 19:54
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nivdes posted:If Biden doesn't stand a chance, Bernie doesn't either. It's really that simple. The infrequent voters in battleground states are more likely to vote Republican when they do vote and Bernie already starts with a huge disadvantage in a lot of those states because he alienates Jewish and Cuban voters (important in Florida) and even alienating less than 15% of moderate or conservative Democrats is enough to doom him. I have yet to meet the diaspora Jew who would turn their nose up at a Jewish president.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:14
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Phi230 posted:Trumpenfash are even gonna take it farther and do real violence too and libs aren't ready for it Given that it will be directed at minorties, they will just tut and shake their heads at the socialists who caused all this by wanting a future.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:33
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nivdes posted:What's voter agency anyway? Why spend that much money if it has no effect?
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Mar 6, 2020 20:55
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nivdes posted:Why isn't Mike Bloomberg the presumptive nominee? Because he's an obvious ghoul who failed miserably in every debate he went into.
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Mar 6, 2020 21:00
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nivdes posted:Correct, money alone doesn't overcome all of these obvious shortcomings. Yes indeed. How is this statement in anyway a refutation? In fact let me just make this absolutely obvious. Do you think Bloomberg would have got the votes he did if he spent zero dollars? No. No you don't.
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Mar 6, 2020 21:03
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nivdes posted:Primary voters are just informed enough to dislike Bloomberg but not informed enough to understand why Bernie is the ideal nominee, right? Nice little strawman you've concocted but that wasn't what I said and hey. Money moves voters is what I was arguing. You can try and spin that into an all-or-nothing black-and-white statement if you want, but at the end of the day that would just be arguing with someone who doesn't exist so why bother?
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Mar 6, 2020 21:09
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Why on earth are people still arguing about packing the supreme court? It's packed. This has happened. This is the present reality. There's no division or future republican revenge to be avoided because the court packing is already a done thing. That doesn't seem like a hard thing to understand. The supreme court has already been packed.
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Mar 6, 2020 23:58
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Poached Eggs posted:I'd find it difficult to believe, without supporting evidence, that Bloomberg was in anyway a part of a DNC strategy. He was doing all his own advertising, running all his own comms and modeling and; is not indebted to the party even losely. Bloomberg seems very much out to buy the DNC at this point. A Biden loss would work well for him in 2024. I'd guess the recent splurge of Clinton propaganda is a shot in that war for control.
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Mar 8, 2020 00:03
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Turns out electoralism doesn't produce progress against an entrenched establishment. Y'all had high hopes but it's time for anger, not hope. And praxis.
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Mar 11, 2020 00:40
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The Dark Project posted:I have a feeling that Trump winning... The civil rights movement didn't win its victories with electoralism. Bernie put the movement together and showed people they aren't alone in their suffering. It's not going to be possible to bring down the establishment using the tools they provide and control. That's absolutely clear now. If the olds are desperate for a return to status quo then the youth needs to make completely clear that isn't going to happen. gently caress things up. Direct action all over the place. The Trade Union movement got things moving under even worse material conditions. If they've taken everything then there's nothing left to lose.
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Mar 11, 2020 14:27
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Private Witt posted:I think people have really lost the plot here and not realized... Biden winning guarantees eight more years of neoliberal tyranny. Trump winning "only" guarantees four. Either way is going to kill a lot of people both now and down the line as climate change rips through the world. How is "they way Biden is winning" in any way a positive thing? Comedy option is that the GOP pivots left into national socialism and wins the millennial vote forever.
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Mar 11, 2020 14:33
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Cool go ahead and wheel out the guillotine because I *checks notes* one time looked into what it would cost to rent an Audi? People are salty because they are afraid of dying.
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Mar 11, 2020 14:47
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This.
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Mar 11, 2020 15:53
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ManBoyChef posted:I think it may be time to start figuring out where the movement goes and who we get to lead it because it is so important. I hate to say it but the left really needs to withhold their votes until the establishment start working with us to compromise on a platform. They are already going to blame us when Biden eventually loses so why not start letting them know that they can't spit in our face, make our kids lives materially worse, and expect us to vote for whatever douchebag center right politician they put in front of us just because they have a {d} in front of their name. It is the only way to really take our power back because we will never get a fair shake from the media. They will always keep their own interests in mind and promote whomever is pro corporation. Its been past time to do this. That's still going to keep one branch of the neolibs in power. Direct action is needed. If people want to vote to make politics "go away" make sure that it definitely does not go away until they compromise.
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Mar 13, 2020 13:43
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Shere posted:Yeah that's cute and all but my disgust at centrist boomers... Getting Trump out of power doesn't preclude direct action. The liberals (and let's not pretend that they are in any way "centrist") want things to go back to the golden age of Obama. Civil disobedience will deny them that prize. Given the stakes, there's not a lot left to lose.
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Mar 13, 2020 15:16
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CowboyKid posted:Supreme Court Justices. Federal court justices. How will voting for Biden help destroy the democratic party?
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Mar 16, 2020 04:00
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Halloween Jack posted:The other point of means testing is to pit the middle and working classes against each other.
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Mar 20, 2020 14:05
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Electoralism is not the tool the left need to win... The game is rigged? Organize. Strike. Riot if needs be. That's the only way progress has ever been clawed from Capital. The left learnt these lessons a hundred years ago.
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Apr 2, 2020 01:26
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rko posted:I love how casually this always gets said. Oh you stupid fools, why weren’t you doing real praxis. I never called anyone stupid and I honestly think this lesson was needed for a lot of people. My grandparents (and their ancestors before them) were ground into the dirt and kept fighting. They had as much to lose as anyone alive now (and probably more to lose) but kept fighting. What they didn't have was hope that Capital would ever show mercy as they never had over generations before. A brief period of massive surplus has tricked a lot of people that they weren't locked into a forever war with a small number of highly effective monsters. Hopefully the masks have dropped sufficiently now that we can start fighting back in ernest because that is what it will take to save our biosphere from the death cult of liberalism. As you say, a bloodless revolution would have been nice, but we can all see that it isn't possible now. In that we'll all die unless we stop this madness, no matter how seamless "the system" is, there's nothing to lose from fighting it. Yeah, it sucks, but this war was old before we were born. Edit: If we have to establish our future in ash and fallout then I hope we'll be able to heal the world over the generations. Without the choke-hold of capital I believe we will be capable of this. Active Quasar fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Apr 2, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 02:40
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:That he's an evil jew, that he's an israel-hating jew, that he's a self-hating jew, that he's a millionaire hypocrite jew, After Jeremy 'lifelong anti-racist' Corbyn got raked for anti-Semitism the de-jewing of Bernie (Bernie and Biden: Two old white guys) has been particularly repulsive. Eighty years after the Shoah, Jews are political footballs again. Great.
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Apr 2, 2020 13:55
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Willo567 posted:So your plan is to basically make the next four years a living hell for immigrants and minorities in order for you to get the candidate you want, which isn't even a guarantee. Vote for Joe "cages for Latin American children" Biden to protect immigrants.
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Apr 27, 2020 13:58
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