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Bilirubin posted:While walking the dog a few more things struck me. Yeah definitely, it's sort of tragic how Stephen hasn't flown past the nets of his home and hasn't yet achieved the exile that Joyce found necessary to be an artist. But Ireland is different to Stephen and Bloom, though they're both outsiders in their own way. And Ireland is this maternal figure but also ambivalent, beset by either catholicism or imperialism, and itself liable to betray its own subjects. It's hard to trust people who aren't the protagonists of this novel, perhaps it's sort of replicating everyone's solipsism but also there's reason to be suspicious of likable people. Like Buck Mulligan who is clever and funny, and pretty consistently good entertainment value but also clearly not good to be around, e.g. when Haines lets off a gun in the middle of the night because of a dream about a black panther and he just tries to explain it away because he's rich. It's interesting you noted how sea-centric the opening is, especially given Stephen's anxieties about water (his monthly bath), described as hydrophobia later on. One of my favourite bits is the moment when Stephen is brooding on his mother's death and thinks of the basin to collect her bile, calling it a 'bowl of bitter waters' all while looking out at Dublin Bay. I just like that simultaneous description of the image in his mind and his environment. Stephen is already on his way to being an accomplished poet really, in the sense that his thoughts are constantly sort of joining these interesting metaphors together, like the thing with the cracked mirror, or the bowl of bitter waters. I've also just remembered the thing with the omphalos; when Stephen is thinking about what would happen if you could follow umbilical cords like telephone lines back through generations of women back to Eve, and then thinks about her pregnant belly, it never struck me that ultimately thinking about the omphalos is a way of thinking about his mother, the belly button is a trace of that maternal connection. This is the way it works reading Joyce, it seems like everything in the world is just a series of relations that all connect in interesting ways and practically nothing is too mundane or too boring: quest for meaning-oracle-omphalos-navel-umbilical cord-mother-Eve. I think the whole mother-mourning thing is so powerful. Stephen is a weird guy who never talks to any woman who isn't family or a sex worker but this is still one of the strongest feminist strands of the novel I think, fathers can be absent but nothing happens without a mother. You'll see more of Stephen's deal with his father. Fathers are all over the book. I think it's Milly, not Molly, who is foreshadowed at the end of episode 1 though. Just one of those puzzles and weird coincidental connections Joyce put into it. There'll be more of them
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Aug 19, 2020 01:24
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Cool! This book humbled me pretty well back in the day, so its encouraging to see my musings on it validated. Your post also makes me realize how rich this is and how one can spend years puzzling through the connections. The man was clearly brilliant.
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Aug 19, 2020 01:44
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Just read episode 5: Bloom on his way to the funeral. Stops off and picks up his letter from a post office box with a card in his hat, and we discover he is flirting with the idea of cheating on Molly. He also stops in at a church, killing time before the funeral? And catches the end of mass--but does not participate, rather observes rather distantly. Not sure why he went in honestly, other than hoping for some music. Given this, reference to aleph and beth, and matzoh, I'm guessing he's Jewish (I think I may recall reading this somewhere else). But not strictly observant clearly given the pork kidney. His interactions with people are interesting. Twice he's been in an interaction but clearly looking elsewhere (the butcher and McCoy). The chat with the better was weird, they way the guy ran off when Bloom offered him the paper for free. And given what you said about Stephen's once monthly bath, Bloom's daydream of one is a contrast. Cab ride to the funeral is next.
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Aug 19, 2020 03:18
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J_RBG posted:Fathers are all over the book. It seems that for Bloom his father looms large. Seems he died suddenly at home while he was quite young
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Aug 19, 2020 04:25
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So my marginalia makes a big deal out of a possible "typo" in the letter to "Henry Flower", where "word" is printed as "world". Is this an actual typo? An intentional misspelling? Or, as our professor suggested, is it the missing "L" from a misspelling of Bloom hundreds of pages later 
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Aug 20, 2020 01:41
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Just finished the funeral episode. Really loved it. I loved having numerous folks active in the scene, loved Simon's reaction to passing Stephen, loved Leo's train of thought. Loved the awkwardness around the discussion of suicide and confirmation that Bloom's dad poisoned himself. The general awkwardness of Blooms interactions with the rest overall (his attempt to tell a funny story in the carriage, and his pointing out to a fellow who didn't much care for him he had a dent in his hat). Loved the funeral mass and the detail of folding the newspaper to kneel on, the caretaker's joke, Simon's continuing to hold onto Parnell when he went off to visit his grave (recalling the discussions early in Portrait, which drove me to read up on him and his scandalous end of career). Loved the day dream of coffins spilling their contents at one sharp turn, and speculations about how wise it would be to just put a pub in at that spot. Loved the line "The Irishman's home is his coffin." And also apropos this discussionJ_RBG posted:I've also just remembered the thing with the omphalos; when Stephen is thinking about what would happen if you could follow umbilical cords like telephone lines back through generations of women back to Eve, and then thinks about her pregnant belly, it never struck me that ultimately thinking about the omphalos is a way of thinking about his mother, the belly button is a trace of that maternal connection. This is the way it works reading Joyce, it seems like everything in the world is just a series of relations that all connect in interesting ways and practically nothing is too mundane or too boring: quest for meaning-oracle-omphalos-navel-umbilical cord-mother-Eve. how Joyce compared the strap used to lower Dignam's coffin into the grave to a "navelcord", which makes death the birth into yet another life. Great great chapter all around Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 03:12
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i bought the gabler edition. will post more when i get my hands on it and read it 😎
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Aug 20, 2020 03:42
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Nice
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Aug 20, 2020 07:14
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Bilirubin posted:Just finished the funeral episode. Really loved it. The funeral episode just owns so much, I love how Joyce talks about death with seriousness but also with a huge amount of life and humour, it's an incredible performance. I never quite know how to process Bloom's story about Reuben J. Dodd末he's a moneylender, with a Jewish-ish sounding name (but is he Jewish?)末and it seems like Bloom plays into the stereotypes about Jewishness for the comic effect and to ingratiate himself with the people he's with. It's a humanising moment in a way, because Bloom's a bit awkward and doesn't feel quite in the centre of this group of men he's with. I also love how he has this strange relationship from afar with John Henry Menton, who he assumes is still a sexual rival because he was once courting Molly, but it's like not too clear whether the feeling is reciprocated. I also love Simon Dedalus' way with words, often stolen from Joyce's own father. My favourite is when he looks out at the sky getting more overcast and says: 'It's as uncertain as a child's bottom' Bilirubin posted:how Joyce compared the strap used to lower Dignam's coffin into the grave to a "navelcord", which makes death the birth into yet another life. Ho poo poo I never noticed!
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Aug 20, 2020 15:53
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When more people have read the book I eagerly await theories about the man in the macintosh
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Aug 20, 2020 15:54
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J_RBG posted:It's a humanising moment in a way, because Bloom's a bit awkward and doesn't feel quite in the centre of this group of men he's with. This is one of my favorite devices in the book 蔓witnessing how Bloom moves through all of these different social contexts, in which people react to him variously, while also seeing into Bloom himself. It's vastly humanizing and, to me, a really important part of the novel's accomplishment.
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Aug 21, 2020 01:46
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I love the line "curving his height with care" as Mr Power enters the carriage at the start of the funeral chapter.Bilirubin posted:There is also a conflict between the Ireland of the past, represented by the milk woman, and a more outward, international Ireland of the future, in expat, atheist Stephan. But the island prevented him from achieving what he had hoped, and so here he is, substitute teaching kids, again subservient. Ireland is the center of his world, literally, in the metaphor of the tower as omphalos, the navel--which my marginalia also ties to Delphi. I've just noticed that the milkwoman is also a reference to motherhood; a woman who brings the milk... and that puts another light on the "not hers" line when she's pouring it. Don't know what your marginalia says, but Delphi is where the famous oracle of Apollo was, and you can still see the world's navel stone there. J_RBG posted:I never quite know how to process Bloom's story about Reuben J. Dodd––he's a moneylender, with a Jewish-ish sounding name (but is he Jewish?)––and it seems like Bloom plays into the stereotypes about Jewishness for the comic effect and to ingratiate himself with the people he's with. I wonder if he feels guilty about it, though, given the bits later on when he's accused of being a traitor.
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Aug 21, 2020 12:31
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Safety Biscuits posted:I wonder if he feels guilty about it, though, given the bits later on when he's accused of being a traitor. Yeah I think Joyce is using it ultimately to think about the way outsiders try and fit in, even betraying themselves to do so. As an exile he might well have encountered stereotypes about Irishness he might have laughed along with. Especially with the general equivalences being made throughout the novel between the Irish and the Jews. e: outsiders is perhaps the wrong word but I can't think of another one right now lol
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Aug 21, 2020 15:19
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J_RBG posted:When more people have read the book I eagerly await theories about the man in the macintosh STEPHEN (points): exit Judas.
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Aug 22, 2020 02:50
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Safety Biscuits posted:I've just noticed that the milkwoman is also a reference to motherhood; a woman who brings the milk... and that puts another light on the "not hers" line when she's pouring it. Don't know what your marginalia says, but Delphi is where the famous oracle of Apollo was, and you can still see the world's navel stone there. Yes I had hoped mentioning the omphalos would bring that in as well. And the oracle of Apollo was, possibly, originally the oracle of Gaia, so again with the mother imagery. Not sure whether Joyce created the literary version of a cold reading for us to all project these connections onto or if they were intended but its fun nonetheless.
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Aug 22, 2020 06:21
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Bilirubin posted:Not sure whether Joyce created the literary version of a cold reading for us to all project these connections onto or if they were intended but its fun nonetheless. What's remarkable is they are clearly ambigious but there's a deep sense of semantic control nonetheless. I just started reading FW in this thread (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3937584) and let me tell you, this guy understands something about how humans process meaning that we dont.
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Aug 23, 2020 02:03
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Just read the newspaper episode. Really captured the chaos of casual conversation in a loud busy place. Poor Bloom does seem to have a tough time of it though. Also I really liked the narrative shift from Bloom to Stephen and back briefly. One passage caught my attention though, because it seems oddly out of place. quote:Messenger took out his matchbox thoughtfully and lit his cigar. Is he in the moment, thinking of another time that that reminded him of? Is he thinking of a line that will be useful in some future story? Or are we seeing a breaking with the narrative as a documentation of occurring events to be reminded that this was written later? That last would be in keeping with the headline paragraph titles I suppose
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Aug 24, 2020 23:13
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Bloom about town, having lunch. Very different stream of consciousness he has. Hearing the others in the pub talking about him when he leaves the room was entertaining--and the speculation of his being a freemason. Was that the woman he was corresponding with that he saw at the end and ducked into the museum to avoid? e. no upon rereading it was a man Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 04:12
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Bilirubin posted:Bloom about town, having lunch. Very different stream of consciousness he has. Hearing the others in the pub talking about him when he leaves the room was entertaining--and the speculation of his being a freemason. Those jews sure are a shifty bunch. iirc the freemason discussion happens because Joyce spares us another bathroom communal with Bloom, right? I always found the floating eye aspect of his narration totally fascinating. I feel just as pervvy as Bloom in my disappointment I didn't get to see the porcelain suite. Bilirubin posted:Was that the woman he was corresponding with that he saw at the end and ducked into the museum to avoid? I believe so, yeah. He feels quite guilty about it and that's more than I can say for that hussy molly.
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Aug 27, 2020 04:20
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Bilirubin posted:e. no upon rereading it was a man oh , my mistake. Can u remind me if there's any indication if its Blazes Boylan ,? I wonder if the man in macintosh shows up to the bar.
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Aug 27, 2020 04:30
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almost there posted:oh , my mistake. Can u remind me if there's any indication if its Blazes Boylan ,? I wonder if the man in macintosh shows up to the bar. Tan outfit, although I don't recall much about him so far, and given the ongoing speculation about him throughout the chapter (does he have an STD?), this makes sense
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Aug 27, 2020 05:07
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The tell with Blazes Boylan is the straw hat and bright clothes usually. He also gets a special sound in episode 11.Bilirubin posted:Bloom about town, having lunch. Very different stream of consciousness he has. Posts like he thinks. Wonder how that works, the connection. Between style and substance that is. For instance take an ad: all in the way you say it. The art of rhetoric. But you could go on and on and have no idea how you said something. Have a style of thinking without thinking, I suppose. All to do with the way you're wired up I reckon. For instance if you're hungry your style gets hungry. Or something like that.
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Aug 27, 2020 11:51
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Nah but seriously, episode 8 has grown on me loads. I used to not get all that much out of it, but I really like some of Bloom's tangents in this one. Like when he goes into the pub and hates how everyone's eating in there so pretends to be looking for someone then walks out. Or when he comes out with this gem about how important food is: 'Pyramids in sand. Built on bread and onions.'
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Aug 27, 2020 11:56
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He really has a knack for making the act of eating repulsive. Confirmed straw hat btw, Boylan it was!
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Aug 27, 2020 16:31
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Just finished Stephen's discussion of his theory of Hamlet i the library. I loved the word play and ever changing styles of discourse. And another brief brush with Bloom!
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Aug 29, 2020 23:59
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Bloom and Stephen orbiting ever closer is my favourite part of the book, and something I'll have to pay more attention to if I read it a second time. It should be obvious with the Odysseus/Telemachus roles, but watching the novel fall into full focus as they get together is sublime.
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Aug 30, 2020 14:36
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I have to reread the Odyssey sometime soon
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Aug 30, 2020 18:40
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oh and I am officially further along in the novel than I have achieved previously Mysteriously not struggling this time. I think Gravity's Rainbow broke me of the need to understand everything I read at once and that is quite liberating.
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Aug 30, 2020 18:55
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Bilirubin posted:oh and I am officially further along in the novel than I have achieved previously drat right I think Ulysses is a logical step onwards from GR in many ways. Although it's definitely not as wacky I never know quite what to make of the Shakespeare section, because it's certainly loaded with information that's kind of wrong (like Joyce used purposefully bad sources for it) and also Stephen doesn't believe in its conclusions, but it's also the case that he wants to be listened to and he's sad that people don't seem to pay too much attention to it. And also that so many great lines come from it: 'Amor matris, subjective and objective genitive, may be the only true thing in the world. Paternity may be a legal fiction', 'A man of genius makes no mistakes, his errors are volitional and are the portals to discovery' And that rant about Shakespeare not being a great poet, and nothing more than a shrewd and ruthless capitalist. I like the next episode too, the bit from the perspective of Paddy Dignam's son especially
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Aug 31, 2020 00:48
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J_RBG posted:drat right Interesting, how so? And yes GR is loving hilarious in parts. So far this has been more subdued, although with much to admire and appreciate and even chuckle over (HEALY 'S) quote:I like the next episode too, the bit from the perspective of Paddy Dignam's son especially It was brilliant. It really captured the interwoven nature of a city at its business, and placed all of the now introduced players (with the rest of the Dedalus clan) variously on the stage. It even gave me an idea who the man in the mackintosh might be, until he made an appearance near the end. Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Aug 31, 2020 |
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Aug 31, 2020 04:03
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Well 1. if you can make it through a book as difficult as GR, you can make it through Ulysses 2. Ulysses and GR share a similar obsessional aesthetic about the mundane貌verything ordinary is actually extraordinary, and deserves to be described in that way, with as many weird words as possible. 3. Not only that, but everything is connected through symbolic structures: GR has that conspiratorial mindset common to all Pynchon, Ulysses makes the reader constantly search for connections in a similar way 4. Both very funny, musical books that take seriously the presence of death and atrocity in life, and still emerge the other end of it cracking jokes and singing songs. They both essentially prove that a sincere way of tackling modernity is through massive comic novels 5. You will have to wait and see later on how hallucinatory Ulysses can get They're obviously quite different, but you can see how Pynchon is someone who has read and absorbed Joyce. In fact I don't think you'd have an author like Pynchon without Joyce
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Aug 31, 2020 12:05
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The library chapter also has the line about "the Auric egg of Russell", which is one of my favourite jokes in the book. Going back to Delphi for a second... the scientific name for the opossum is Didelphis, because they've got two wombs; so Delphi is etymologically a womb as well as a navel. Also, the winners of the Delphi games got laurel crowns, or "stephanoi", which are also prizes for poetic achievement. Bilirubin posted:Not sure whether Joyce created the literary version of a cold reading for us to all project these connections onto or if they were intended but its fun nonetheless. I think so, or at least he's the first to do it in such an ordered way, but maybe not.
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Sep 1, 2020 04:46
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i'm just going to cross post from the Finnegan thread my last post and close it, since its more appropriate in the joyce thread and I properly poo poo up the Wake thread with my head gass. there's something to it tho, I feel anybody who comes to the wake erects a wall (lol) against the tides of that riverr liffey, and but of course I'm finding out more and more that that's the point of it. The only way to survive it is to shutup and embrace the damned thing! so the x-post as foresaid about the first half-chapter, goon J-RBG's thoughtful response, and then my thoughts on the other half following almost there posted:so i powered through the first half of the first chapter and I gotta say I'm surprised how much sense its actually making? I noticed several things about it. J_RBG posted:Great post. I would absolutely say the entire thing is, among other things, a massive rebuke to fascism. In the period between 1922 and 39, the period FW was Work In Progress, fascism ascended, it would be loving mad for Joyce just not to touch on the subject. Philippe Sollers called it the most meaningful anti-fascist document from the interwar period. I won't say much more, but you can kind of guess that the mingling of languages and histories all together doesn't exactly make for a coherent nationalist ideology. almost there fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 02:48
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imprecise surgery over with, let's uvulate onwards. Here're my thoughts on everything that follows until the end of the first chapter, from the discussion between Jute and Mutt, the story of the prankquean, and the ending I'm frankishly confused about. But before all that, here's a quote from a section that seems as plain english as joyce has been so far, and I think totally emblematic of the wake, left unspoiler tagged for those who want to get a sense for what the wake is about James Joyce posted:(Stoop) if you are abcedminded, to this claybook, what curios of signs (please stoop), in this allaphbed! Can you rede (since We and Thou had it out already) its world? It is the same told of all. Many. Miscegenations on miscegenations. Tieckle. They lived und laughed ant loved end left. Forsin. Thy thingdome is given to the Meades and Porsons. The meandertale, aloss and again, of our old Heidenburgh in the days when Head-in-Clouds walked the earth. In the ignorance that implies impression that knits knowledge that finds the nameform that whets the wits that convey contacts that sweeten sensation that drives desire that adheres to attachment that dogs death that bitches birth that entails the ensuance of existentiality. A beautiful piece of writing. The only thing I want to mention is that for some reason I feel there's a strange resonance between the sound of the line "They lived und laughed ant loved end left" , and the one that ends the novel, "A way a lone a last a loved a long the". I don't know if it means anything but I'm noticing that there are certain series's of sounds that end up all transplanted and transformed when you come across them again. I assume these are the sigla Roland Hughs is all a huff about. Anyways, 1) The conversation between Jute and Mutt seems like a conversation between the inheritors of the earth and the mythical giant of the earth itself, tho I have no idea who "jeffmute" is, or why Jute confuses Mutt with him. Seeing that it's right after the point with the mythological history I'm assuming it's the historian who was caught in the fray? Though it hardly seems to matters since "jeff", only gets mentioned twice and then its onwards and upwards from there. One proclivity of Vico's in the New Science i've noticed is that he seemed to believe literal giants walked the earth, in the form of barbarians, before eventually becoming enslaved, or in vico's parlance, "adopted", by the Sons of Israel. And in a lot of ways Mutt seems to wax poetic in a way about the earth in a lexicon beyond Mutt's brutish understanding. Here's a quote from the New Science that seemed pertinent to this section. Vico posted:In the human race first appear the huge and grotesque, like the Cyclopes; then the proud and magnanimous, like Achilles; then the valorous and just, like AHstides and Scipio Africanus; nearer to us, imposing figures with great semblances of virtue accompanied by great vices, who among the vulgar win a name for true glory, like Alexander and Caesar; still later, the melancholy and reflective, like Tiberius; finally the dissolute and shameless madmen, like Caligula, Nero, and Domitian. Vico goes on to mention that the word for 'family' has its etymological origin in the roman word for "adopted slaves" and no poo poo, he's not even lying. the whole conversation really sets the scene for... 2) The story of the prankquean. I know Joseph Campbell places a huge amount of importance on this story, so I will probably return to the section a bunch when I'm reading. But from what I could tell it tells the story of a witch who shows up to "Mark the Wans's" "lamphouse", and then proceeds to ask him the totally vexxing question, "why do am I alook alike a poss of porterpease?" before proceeding to kidnap and convert his kids to Christianity when he fails to give an appropriate answer. Does anyone have any guesses as to what the question is? also, it's really hard to tell at how many levels this story is occuring at. At a grand one it seems like Adam and Eve and the snake in the garden of eden have something to do with it, and at another level its difficult for me to tell if the prankquean and Mark share a fierce antagonism, or an intense love affair. And what's more, it's hard to tell but the relationship between them seems somehow reflected into the relationship between the children by the end. Does anybody else get what I'm saying here? It's totally trippy, but maybe just an indication of a sloppy reading on my part. 3) everything that follows that. After Mark's ostensible "taming" by the prankquean there's this uplifting section about either Mark or Finnegan I think best epitomized in the line "I seemeth a dragonman." Really at this point I started to feel like a primitive man. That was really the most remarkable part about everything when I finished. I started to feel as though I were a cyclops, scratching the unterwelt of my garganutan belly and belching and bitching and speaking in an ancient germanic tongue. I don't know how to describe the sensation, but in a sense I guess I felt actually betrayed by my un-anarchic english language. As though I were deprived of all the "miscegenations upon miscegenations" of a natural tongue. That it didn't have the soul's that Joyce's English had, but that it was still nonetheless within me. I dont know, can any goons relate to that sensation? I don't mean it in the fascistic sense (i hope?) of a lost homeland or anything, but kind of the opposite actually, as if this part of us becomes irretrievably lost when we're children, but Joyce manages to somehow revive some semblance of it in this book. It was easily one the most profound feelings literature has ever given me and it's only the first chapter lol. So first half of chapter 2 for me incoming next week. I'm completely hooked, a totally different experience than when I was pissed about failing to understand it the first time I tried to read it. I'm eager to see what Joyce does with the chapter break given how much he did with them in Ulysses. Cheers.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:09
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On Ulysses matters, just finished episode 11, Sirens, which was a really musical mashup of phrases, clips, stream of consciousness, and narrative that wasn't nearly as confusing as it should have been. I really enjoyed the Boylan/Bloom mashup and the singing of Simon. Really good stuff!
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Sep 4, 2020 04:32
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Sirens is easily my favourite section. From Bloom suddenly sprouting donkey ears to all the sexy Venus in furs stuff, I just remember having oodles of fun with it. Totally memorable.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:45
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Do you mean Circe? I don't remember much masochism stuff in Sirens.
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Sep 4, 2020 09:47
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J_RBG posted:Do you mean Circe? I don't remember much masochism stuff in Sirens. That would make more sense, as I don't recall any mule ears and it would be in keeping with the story from the Odyssey.
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Sep 5, 2020 23:26
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christ, im an idiot, sorry. I'll stop posting about ulysses cuz all i manage to do is spoil stuff. My bad bilrubin. Anyways, any of you hear about this ? I'm curious what Wakers might think of a plain-english translation. blasphemy? public service? or $1500 USD con-job? https://www.gishgallop.com/plain-english-translation-of-james-joyces-finnegans-wake-exceeds-175000-pages/ i wont know until i, like, see the book, but i have a hard time believing any thing like this wont just push a pretty narrow understanding of a book that makes its own breadth and stylistic incomprehensibility sort of its most liberating and aesthetically fascinating aspect. i feel like in some way the book was designed precisely to own nerds who think a thing like a plain language translation is even possible. almost there fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Sep 7, 2020 |
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Sep 7, 2020 00:24
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almost there posted:christ, im an idiot, sorry. I'll stop posting about ulysses cuz all i manage to do is spoil stuff. My bad bilrubin. No worries, so much is going on, and its a hundred year old book so lol you can't spoiler it. Making my way through Cyclops now, and it is hewing fairly close in theme and feel to the story in the Odyssey IMO--more so than any previous chapter did at least. Really funny
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Sep 7, 2020 03:52
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